Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 jy2 wrote:


Shooty is good, but these deathstars have more than just shooting. Perhaps they are the new breed of deathstars - a shooty deathstar that is also highly resilient. Tau is hard to kill because you can't catch them, they can survive combat and they are getting 2+ cover if played correctly. The Pinkstar? Re-rollable 2++'s. 'Nuff said.

How are they getting a rerollable 2++? I understand that as Tzeentch daemons they re-roll 1's, but how do they get from 5++ to 2++? The Grimoire is only +2, isn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1000 Paladinstar Grey Knights

I actually revised my Draigowing deathstar list. Now it doesn't even have Draigo at all. Instead, I swapped him and some paladin wargear for Coteaz and a Grandmaster.


Coteaz - Prescience, Forewarning

Grandmaster - Psycannon, Psykatroke Grenades, Nemesis Force Sword (Warlord)

10x Paladins - 4x (2x Master-crafted) Psycannons, 3x Hammers, Brotherhood Banner

Okay, couple questions about this too...

Why waste points on mastercrafting psycannons when you're getting prescience? Wouldn't these points be better spent towards a warding stave in the unit? Getting a 2++ model in the unit makes them so much more resilient against the big guys who make it to them. Why psykatrope grenades over rad grenades on the GM? When fighing other deathstars that you expect to field multi-wound models, surely reducing their toughness is pretty great, especially when you've also got 2 ways to get off hammerhand in the unit, giving you S6 vs potential T3s?

@Redbeard

Forewarning gives the unit 4++. Grimoire brings it down to 2++. Then Tzeentch re-roll 1's, though the LoC also had Precognition, which let's him re-roll all saves, as well as the Greater Reward that let's him re-roll all Invuln's (talk about overkill...lol).


The Paladinstar was at 990-pts before the 2x Master-crafted upgrades. Grenades are 15-pts and the Stave is 20-pts. Couldn't fit either in the list and still be at 1000-pts or below. Personally for my lists, I don't like to go above points.

So either get MC just in case Prescience fails (i.e. Runes of Warding) or Coteaz dies or go with servo-skulls or digital weapons.

Well, that's one take on it. I think the Stave is well worth cutting something else for, possibly even the GM's psycannon. (It's so expensive on him, and an incinerator is a nice replacement there too).

Boom, see that is how the pinkstar rolls!, tonight I played them and managed to kill 2 nightscythes and 2 HP's off a doom scythe, should have really deployed them in the center off the board instead deployed them to the right in a ruin with plus one cover save (so GTG is a 2plus cover save rerolling 1's) I did have forewarning on and only failed the grimourie once

That LoC just absolutely devastates everything it reaches!

 Redbeard wrote:
Well, that's one take on it. I think the Stave is well worth cutting something else for, possibly even the GM's psycannon. (It's so expensive on him, and an incinerator is a nice replacement there too).

I prefer the extra shooting, but that's just me. However, I normally run a stave in m Draigowing list. There I can also fit in Coteaz for Prescience at 1750. However, at 1000, you need to cut some stuff in order to get it all working. My priority is to make the unit as shooty as possible (while keeping Coteaz). Everything else is secondary.

MarkyMark wrote:
Boom, see that is how the pinkstar rolls!, tonight I played them and managed to kill 2 nightscythes and 2 HP's off a doom scythe, should have really deployed them in the center off the board instead deployed them to the right in a ruin with plus one cover save (so GTG is a 2plus cover save rerolling 1's) I did have forewarning on and only failed the grimourie once

Yeah, this is what the real Pinkstar can do. They will shoot the crap out of almost anything except re-rollable 2+'s. They are probably the best "pure" shooters of all the deathstars and have the greatest volume of twin-linked S6 shots from any 1 unit in the game today. And they are a huge force-multiplying unit, doling out Prescience and Forewarning to themselves and others and screwing with the enemy with Misfortune and Perfect Timing. With all their powers, they actually work best when teaming up with another unit (such as the LoC or another greater daemon/daemon prince) who will complement them them with some mobility and counter-assault capabilities.

BaconUprising wrote:
That LoC just absolutely devastates everything it reaches!

When he's on, he's on. He is good enough to almost win a game all by himself, especially with the right powers and grimoire rolls. You think he was tough in this game? He actually got some crappy gifts. Imagine if he gets the extra +1W, It Will Not Die! and 4+ FNP on top of his re-rollable 2++!!!

However, he does need someone else in the army to use the Grimoire on him because he cannot use it on himself. That's why the Pinkstar and the LoC makes the perfect duo. They complement each other so well it's scary.

Played two Deathstar games tonight, in Ravenstar vs Paladinstar they rolled Draigo and Friends in three turns taking only three bike casualties total. Being T2 reaaaaaally hurts Paladins against rending Corvus Hammers.

In the second game Ravenstar rolled Lvl 3 DP (Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Life Leech, 2 Weapons from Rewards) and the Pinkstar ( 2x Forewarning, 2x Prescience, 2x Perfect Timing, 2x Full BS overwatch) in four turns, losing a single biker .(Made 4 consecutive DTW rolls on the one turn the Pinkstar could shoot.) 2++ re-rollable is strong, but Warp Storm and DI still hurt it.
+

Whats your Ravenstar look like?

Cannot deepstrike unless they arrive on Turn 1 (or leave 1 model deployed and hiding). Otherwise, they are tabled if they don't have a model on the board at the end of the game turn.

Can't afford apothecaries and librarians. Only had 1000-pts to work with. Coteaz is a much better bargain if points is a limitation. I decided to opt for more offense (shooting and psychic powers) than defense (apothecary). Grand Strategy from the Grandmaster is also nice, giving the paladins some extra movement and making their offense more effective (re-roll 1's or counter-attack).

Might be worth taking a cheap-o crap like a nekkid inq just to allow for a pallie deepstrike. I cant imagine them walking up to a tau plasmahorde that fired and jumps back all the time.

Ed:
Just read the tau-vs-gk outcome, told you, deepstrike or auto loose!
Try a more even set of terrain next time, the battles are supposed to be fair deathstar vs deathstar and not crippling disadvantage deathstar vs imbalanced advantage deathstar. This way we never get to see the true results of a deathstar vs deathstar.

So I guess the poor paladinstar is DOA? That's a real shame. They're an awesome little unit. Ah well, guess no one can complain that they're OP.

I shall run them without shame.

Go pink daemons! Loving the batreps. I think you guys should do more with all kinds of set ups.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Played two Deathstar games tonight, in Ravenstar vs Paladinstar they rolled Draigo and Friends in three turns taking only three bike casualties total. Being T2 reaaaaaally hurts Paladins against rending Corvus Hammers.

In the second game Ravenstar rolled Lvl 3 DP (Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Life Leech, 2 Weapons from Rewards) and the Pinkstar ( 2x Forewarning, 2x Prescience, 2x Perfect Timing, 2x Full BS overwatch) in four turns, losing a single biker .(Made 4 consecutive DTW rolls on the one turn the Pinkstar could shoot.) 2++ re-rollable is strong, but Warp Storm and DI still hurt it.
+

Now I definitely need to get in a test game against the Ravenstar.

There's actually a guy at my LGS who runs Ravenwing Bikers. Maybe I can set up a deathstar deathmatch with him running your Ravenstar versus one of the Deathstars here. Perhaps against the Farsight Bomb....

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
Whats your Ravenstar look like?

Probably something like this:


Azrael
Librarian, Lvl 2, Bike, Mace of Redemption, Auspex, rolling Divination or Telepathy
10x Ravenwing Black Knights
and
Allied Sevrin Loth for full access to Biomancy

 Pyriel- wrote:

Cannot deepstrike unless they arrive on Turn 1 (or leave 1 model deployed and hiding). Otherwise, they are tabled if they don't have a model on the board at the end of the game turn.

Can't afford apothecaries and librarians. Only had 1000-pts to work with. Coteaz is a much better bargain if points is a limitation. I decided to opt for more offense (shooting and psychic powers) than defense (apothecary). Grand Strategy from the Grandmaster is also nice, giving the paladins some extra movement and making their offense more effective (re-roll 1's or counter-attack).

Might be worth taking a cheap-o crap like a nekkid inq just to allow for a pallie deepstrike. I cant imagine them walking up to a tau plasmahorde that fired and jumps back all the time.

Ed:
Just read the tau-vs-gk outcome, told you, deepstrike or auto loose!
Try a more even set of terrain next time, the battles are supposed to be fair deathstar vs deathstar and not crippling disadvantage deathstar vs imbalanced advantage deathstar. This way we never get to see the true results of a deathstar vs deathstar.

That's an option, though in order to keep the deathstar intact, I'd probably drop the Master-crafted upgrades and Psykatroke grenades and just get 1 unit of 3-5 henchmen and hide them.

It'll be funny if both of those armies deepstrike. Tau leaves Shadowsun on the table and the GK's the henchmen. Then whoever comes in first will probably win as they table the guys on the table. LOL.

Terrain will never be fair, unfortunately. You use a LOS-blocking terrain and it will benefit the fast assault armies like the seer council. You use area terrain and it will benefit the shooty armies. So far, only Tau has the adaptability to handle both with flair due to their mobility. That is a sign of a truly good deathstar - they can adapt to the situation no matter what it is.

 gpfunk wrote:
So I guess the poor paladinstar is DOA? That's a real shame. They're an awesome little unit. Ah well, guess no one can complain that they're OP.

I shall run them without shame.

Though they lack mobility, they are one of the most balanced deathstars around. They can shoot and they can assault and they are tough to get rid of. No other deathstar is arguably as flexible as the paladinstar. They are one of the more well-rounded deathstars currently. They are also one of the most successful in tournament play. No need to hang your head low, lad. Walk proud and walk tall.

Solosam47 wrote:
Go pink daemons! Loving the batreps. I think you guys should do more with all kinds of set ups.

I will and I will try to get more people to playtest these deathstars with me also.

Farsight Tau vs Nob biker Orks was supposed to be today, but I didn't get the models and I'm trying to minimize the proxies. However, I expect them to fight this coming Friday.

Of course, tomorrow is the big debut of the Seer Council Deldar against all 3 deathstars!

This is great stuff. Probably my favourite series of reports, keep it up!

Shame about the Paladins, in death star terms they are a jack of all trades and master of none it seems. I just wonder if they had Draigo for tanking and a stave how much of a difference it would have made.

djn wrote:
This is great stuff. Probably my favourite series of reports, keep it up!

Shame about the Paladins, in death star terms they are a jack of all trades and master of none it seems. I just wonder if they had Draigo for tanking and a stave how much of a difference it would have made.

Thanks.

Not sure Draigo would have made a difference in my games so far. In Game #1 against Tau, I was rolling so poorly the Draigo probably would have died anyways (failed a lot of plasmas on 1's and 2's).

In Game #2 against Daemons, my poor rolling for the paladins combined with Misfortune would've probably meant that Draigo would have died quickly. I'm not so sure how much the warding stave would have helped in combat. In the combat with the Grandmaster, they LoC hit and wounded 5 times due to all his re-roll's. One of those saves that the GKGM took was a 1 (and that was before the re-roll due to Misfortune). If it had been the stave, he would have been insta-killed by the LoC's S8 Staff of Change. So whether it was Draigo or the GKGM, both would have probably lost the battles. However, without the shooting of the Grandmaster and Prescience from Coteaz, GK shooting against Tau would not have been nearly as effective as it was. GK's would have probably lost by an even bigger margin.

Also, you could have precision shot the warding stave from the heralds shooting,

Terrain will never be fair, unfortunately. You use a LOS-blocking terrain and it will benefit the fast assault armies like the seer council. You use area terrain and it will benefit the shooty armies. So far, only Tau has the adaptability to handle both with flair due to their mobility. That is a sign of a truly good deathstar - they can adapt to the situation no matter what it is.

The thing is this:
Your idea of these star batreps I guess is to show what star is better at what etc.

This you can only achieve by making balanced and fair square offs.
Terrain, FOC, point limitation etc, none of these things should be unfairly balanced as they are in your batreps.
What I mean is that the point limit can be a hinderance to one star and a piece of cake to another, pallie star obviously suffers from a 1000p limit since the apot cannot be fitted in while aother star is perfectly fine with 800p.
It´s like playing a tournament with SM facing of with dark eldar at 500p, some armies asa whole never get to shine below certain point values while other do, thus we allow a point limitation that doesnt cripple anyone.

Same for the FOC.
Some start are non scoring and can only be so by taking often crappy HQ choices. This too is a bad thing if making a star vs star since it is assumed other things like troops are on the table else where, the entire thing is NOT to take the start out of the context but to have them simply square of against each others.
Same goes for the deepstrike issue, do DS with them regardless of the idiotic reserve rule because how else can you show of the death star if you limit it´s abilities it does pay points for after all. Assume other things are on the table that make the DS ok.

Terrain goes in here as well. Contrary to what you say terrain should (and often is) be balanced. Giving a shooty army super coversaves while the footslogging one has to walk through open ground is unbalanced, does not make for a fair battle and thus does not show the true power comparisons between the stars. It kind of reminds me of when I was completely new to 40k and this tau player always set up the table against me using hardly any terrain ever, needless to say the games were oh so balanced and according to them if taken out of context tau seemed to be the most op thing out there with miles to spare.
The average terrain is today a 5+ cover save piece and not a gigantic piece of solid LOS blocker that favors only one army and massacres the other.


No, the idea is very fun and I enjoy your reports and appreciate the effort you put into them but if I could change something I would look at all the stars, determine a point cap that allows all to shine fully without hindering any one, use fair terrain, dont hinder some with reserve rules or FOC limitations (assuming things are on the table already) and try to make it as balanced as possible showing the true power levels of the death stars vs another.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Played two Deathstar games tonight, in Ravenstar vs Paladinstar they rolled Draigo and Friends in three turns taking only three bike casualties total. Being T2 reaaaaaally hurts Paladins against rending Corvus Hammers.

In the second game Ravenstar rolled Lvl 3 DP (Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Life Leech, 2 Weapons from Rewards) and the Pinkstar ( 2x Forewarning, 2x Prescience, 2x Perfect Timing, 2x Full BS overwatch) in four turns, losing a single biker .(Made 4 consecutive DTW rolls on the one turn the Pinkstar could shoot.) 2++ re-rollable is strong, but Warp Storm and DI still hurt it.
+

After seeing the Farsight massacres it seems that Ravenwing may have a hard time closing the gap to assault. If I played Tau then I would just move to just inside 24" to unleash plasma at max range and sms and then jump back 3D6". They should be able to knock off 3-4 bikers each turn and shouldn't be able to be caught or rad grenaded unless the bikes turboboost. Turboboosting would mean the RW would have to forego a turn of shooting and likely have to weather at least one turn of rapid fire with no cover.

If you play that matchup then you might want to consider switching to telepathy to get Gate of Infinity and then pick up Biomancy powers with whatever additional powers Loth can get. The 24" move could close the gap and instantly put the bikers in range for rapid fire, rad grenades and psychic powers. I don't know of any specific special rules on how to place bike bases during a deep strike but it seems like it would be fairly easy to place the first one fairly far away 9-11" to reduce the probability of a bad scatter. and then use the long bike bases to close any resulting gap. Assuming you are using Azreal and Loth this overcomes their lack of mobility. Additionally, you may be able to get to a facing where there is no drone screen which means instant killing suits with plasma (and maybe bolters if you get them to T2 with enfeeble).

Assuming that you close the gap to <6" then there would be a good chance that you could shoot and assault whatevers left the following turn. Since a Deep Strike is involved there is some risk but I suspect it is minimal assuming the opponent has no blasts. I also assume that technically you haven't "moved" so you lose your cover save, but against the Farsight Bomb you aren't getting it anyway. Actually looking at the new FAQ if you scattered too far you could make a turbo boost move away instead of shooting to setup for another attempt the next turn.

"Q: Can Bikes / Jetbikes make a Turbo-Boost move, or vehicles move
Flat Out, on a turn that they arrive from Deep Strike? (p45)
A: Yes."

Bikes would suffer from the Farsight Bomb because of the Multi Spectrum Sensor Suite -- all of the shooting attacks ignore cover.

Azreal give his unit a 4plus invul though, so they dont have to relie on cover saves, really reduces the speed of the unit though

MarkyMark wrote:
Azreal give his unit a 4plus invul though, so they dont have to relie on cover saves, really reduces the speed of the unit though

tch! I keep forgetting this! With all these new 40K books coming out one after another in 6th ed it's a real PITA keeping all the new rules and wargear straight.

Yeah a 4++ will definitely help vs the Puretide Council. (name stolen from a batrep i just read).

MarkyMark wrote:
Also, you could have precision shot the warding stave from the heralds shooting,

And that too!

 Pyriel- wrote:

Terrain will never be fair, unfortunately. You use a LOS-blocking terrain and it will benefit the fast assault armies like the seer council. You use area terrain and it will benefit the shooty armies. So far, only Tau has the adaptability to handle both with flair due to their mobility. That is a sign of a truly good deathstar - they can adapt to the situation no matter what it is.

The thing is this:
Your idea of these star batreps I guess is to show what star is better at what etc.

This you can only achieve by making balanced and fair square offs.
Terrain, FOC, point limitation etc, none of these things should be unfairly balanced as they are in your batreps.
What I mean is that the point limit can be a hinderance to one star and a piece of cake to another, pallie star obviously suffers from a 1000p limit since the apot cannot be fitted in while aother star is perfectly fine with 800p.
It´s like playing a tournament with SM facing of with dark eldar at 500p, some armies asa whole never get to shine below certain point values while other do, thus we allow a point limitation that doesnt cripple anyone.

Same for the FOC.
Some start are non scoring and can only be so by taking often crappy HQ choices. This too is a bad thing if making a star vs star since it is assumed other things like troops are on the table else where, the entire thing is NOT to take the start out of the context but to have them simply square of against each others.
Same goes for the deepstrike issue, do DS with them regardless of the idiotic reserve rule because how else can you show of the death star if you limit it´s abilities it does pay points for after all. Assume other things are on the table that make the DS ok.

Terrain goes in here as well. Contrary to what you say terrain should (and often is) be balanced. Giving a shooty army super coversaves while the footslogging one has to walk through open ground is unbalanced, does not make for a fair battle and thus does not show the true power comparisons between the stars. It kind of reminds me of when I was completely new to 40k and this tau player always set up the table against me using hardly any terrain ever, needless to say the games were oh so balanced and according to them if taken out of context tau seemed to be the most op thing out there with miles to spare.
The average terrain is today a 5+ cover save piece and not a gigantic piece of solid LOS blocker that favors only one army and massacres the other.


No, the idea is very fun and I enjoy your reports and appreciate the effort you put into them but if I could change something I would look at all the stars, determine a point cap that allows all to shine fully without hindering any one, use fair terrain, dont hinder some with reserve rules or FOC limitations (assuming things are on the table already) and try to make it as balanced as possible showing the true power levels of the death stars vs another.

Unfortunately for these experimental battles, there is an artificial ceiling for all the deathstars so that they don't become too bloated. They're just going to have to "make do" with 1K whether that is their "natural" points value or whatnot. There is no deathstar that can't fit under 1K. Even Draigowing will "naturally" fit under 1K (Draigo + 10 tooled-out paladins = about 950 pts only). If the points limits was a problem, then they're just going to have to deal with it. Draigowing may run best at 2K, but if you bring it to a 1750 tournament, then you're just going to have to make some cuts to get it to fit. As for the smaller deathstars - the mini-stars - they are excluded for the purposes of these experiments because they just can't get up there in points. As with any tournament, there is a cap to where you can operate.

As for terrain, I will try to make it a little more balanced next time, but you will never get terrain which is totally fair. That is because each deathstar has a quality that will either overload any single phase or wargear/special rules that make terrain moot. Tau is the best example as they can adapt to any terrain you throw at them. No other deathstar really can, thus, Tau will always have an inherent advantage. However, fast assault armies also have the inherent advantage that they can get around any terrain if they really need to. You cannot hide nor avoid armies like the seer council, biker armies and flying monstrous creatures no matter the terrain. The only armies that have a real disadvantage with regards to terrain are the slow deathstars like Draiowing and the Pinkstar. However, they make up for that by having excellent shooting that basically extends their "reach" to be able to hurt enemy units. At the same time, without any LOS-blocking terrain to protect their opponents, it becomes a real shooting gallery that favors the more shooty deathstars.

BTW, cover can be mitigated here. Almost every deathstar on my list has a way to deal with cover. Tau removes cover with wargear. Draigowing and the Pinkstar can remove cover with psychic powers (i.e. Perfect Timing) and the seer council can just fly around it as well as temp weapons that ignore it.

And of course you can apply tactics such as deepstriking as long as you are aware of the risks. All of these armies may deepstrike if they really need to (except for the seer council, but they have the mobility to get to where ever they want anyways). They just need to leave at least 1 model on the table if they choose to do so.

In short, this is my opinion on a "balanced" deathstar. They need to be able to deal with whatever is thrown their way, whether it is a bad matchup (i.e. Pinkstar vs Runes of Warding Deldar), bad terrain (i.e. large LOS-blocking terrain in the middle for shooty deathstars or no terrain for assault deathstars against shooty ones) or bad circumstances (i.e. Pinkstar going 2nd against Tau shooting, Grimoire failing to go off). They need to be able to weather such adverse conditions and still be able to function and more importantly, they need to use tactics to mitigate these circumstances. If not, then they are not a viable deathstar. Simple as that.

ptlangley wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Played two Deathstar games tonight, in Ravenstar vs Paladinstar they rolled Draigo and Friends in three turns taking only three bike casualties total. Being T2 reaaaaaally hurts Paladins against rending Corvus Hammers.

In the second game Ravenstar rolled Lvl 3 DP (Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Life Leech, 2 Weapons from Rewards) and the Pinkstar ( 2x Forewarning, 2x Prescience, 2x Perfect Timing, 2x Full BS overwatch) in four turns, losing a single biker .(Made 4 consecutive DTW rolls on the one turn the Pinkstar could shoot.) 2++ re-rollable is strong, but Warp Storm and DI still hurt it.
+

After seeing the Farsight massacres it seems that Ravenwing may have a hard time closing the gap to assault. If I played Tau then I would just move to just inside 24" to unleash plasma at max range and sms and then jump back 3D6". They should be able to knock off 3-4 bikers each turn and shouldn't be able to be caught or rad grenaded unless the bikes turboboost. Turboboosting would mean the RW would have to forego a turn of shooting and likely have to weather at least one turn of rapid fire with no cover.

If you play that matchup then you might want to consider switching to telepathy to get Gate of Infinity and then pick up Biomancy powers with whatever additional powers Loth can get. The 24" move could close the gap and instantly put the bikers in range for rapid fire, rad grenades and psychic powers. I don't know of any specific special rules on how to place bike bases during a deep strike but it seems like it would be fairly easy to place the first one fairly far away 9-11" to reduce the probability of a bad scatter. and then use the long bike bases to close any resulting gap. Assuming you are using Azreal and Loth this overcomes their lack of mobility. Additionally, you may be able to get to a facing where there is no drone screen which means instant killing suits with plasma (and maybe bolters if you get them to T2 with enfeeble).

Assuming that you close the gap to <6" then there would be a good chance that you could shoot and assault whatevers left the following turn. Since a Deep Strike is involved there is some risk but I suspect it is minimal assuming the opponent has no blasts. I also assume that technically you haven't "moved" so you lose your cover save, but against the Farsight Bomb you aren't getting it anyway. Actually looking at the new FAQ if you scattered too far you could make a turbo boost move away instead of shooting to setup for another attempt the next turn.

"Q: Can Bikes / Jetbikes make a Turbo-Boost move, or vehicles move
Flat Out, on a turn that they arrive from Deep Strike? (p45)
A: Yes."

I actually had a game last night between a proxied Ravenwing Deathstar (Asmodai's list) and the Farsight bomb. In that game, Tau was actually the under-dog! Why? Because the Dark Angel librarian got Perfect Timing! Perfect Timing + Rad Grenade Launchers + Plasmas = no cover saves and instant death for Tau. That was actually a really bad matchup for Tau as Ravenwing went first. With Scout, basically they can move 24" before Tau can even do anything!

Anyways, that was an exciting game and the battle report will be out later (probably when the tournament is completed).

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Bikes would suffer from the Farsight Bomb because of the Multi Spectrum Sensor Suite -- all of the shooting attacks ignore cover.

MarkyMark wrote:
Azreal give his unit a 4plus invul though, so they dont have to relie on cover saves, really reduces the speed of the unit though

Also, if you're running Sevrin Loth in the army, he can give the entire unit Endurance. So that's 3+ save, 4++ invuln's and 5+ FNP on a T5 unit!

Even Draigowing will "naturally" fit under 1K (Draigo + 10 tooled-out paladins = about 950 pts only).

No it does not.

1025p and they are not fully kitted even and without Coteaz for those extra powers.


As I said, some stars are actually hampered by this point limit while others are not. Migh be that currently draigo-wing is simply to expensive to be anything else then a fun gimmick.
Codex creep at its finest.

Looks like we have a different intepretation of a standard Draigowing list. Let's see. This is what I view as a standard Draigowing list (BTW, I don't view the Apothecary as standard. None of the competitive tournament Draigowing armies that I have seen run them. I also don't run him.).

Draigo

10x Paladins
4x Psycannons
1x Brotherhood Banner
1x Warding Stave

950

I agree with jy2's interpretation of standard, although of course, there's also the second HQ in all cases. I prefer a libby, some like coteaz, but either one pushes the value over 1k.

I'm not sure that the super-tooled up GM is an adequate fill-in for draigo though, draigo adds too much synergy, being EW with 3++. He's the guy you need to go toe-to-toe with the LoC in that matchup.

In almost all situations I've seen, there's also a reinforced-aegis dread tagging along, who helps out with stopping silly pink shooting too, but that's really exceeding the point limit...

The apot is missing. In an environment with tons of plasma shots I´d say the apot is pretty much a must have but yes, gw priced him far, far to high to be worth taking "generally".
Also if possible a libby is a far better choice for the pallies rather then draigo.

gpfunk wrote:So I guess the poor paladinstar is DOA? That's a real shame. They're an awesome little unit. Ah well, guess no one can complain that they're OP.

I shall run them without shame.

They're still very strong in Relic missions and used to be stronger with the old wound allocation rules, since you could take 10-12 wounds and not lose a single model.

I'm not sure what Coteaz brings to the table? My list would be GM, Psychotroke, Psycannon, Allied OM Inq, Psycannon and lvl 1 Prescience, and 10x Pal with 4 Psycannon and BB.

They're not the strongest of the Deathstars any more though.

After seeing the Farsight massacres it seems that Ravenwing may have a hard time closing the gap to assault. If I played Tau then I would just move to just inside 24" to unleash plasma at max range and sms and then jump back 3D6". They should be able to knock off 3-4 bikers each turn and shouldn't be able to be caught or rad grenaded unless the bikes turboboost. Turboboosting would mean the RW would have to forego a turn of shooting and likely have to weather at least one turn of rapid fire with no cover.

If you play that matchup then you might want to consider switching to telepathy to get Gate of Infinity and then pick up Biomancy powers with whatever additional powers Loth can get. The 24" move could close the gap and instantly put the bikers in range for rapid fire, rad grenades and psychic powers. I don't know of any specific special rules on how to place bike bases during a deep strike but it seems like it would be fairly easy to place the first one fairly far away 9-11" to reduce the probability of a bad scatter. and then use the long bike bases to close any resulting gap. Assuming you are using Azreal and Loth this overcomes their lack of mobility. Additionally, you may be able to get to a facing where there is no drone screen which means instant killing suits with plasma (and maybe bolters if you get them to T2 with enfeeble).

Assuming that you close the gap to <6" then there would be a good chance that you could shoot and assault whatevers left the following turn. Since a Deep Strike is involved there is some risk but I suspect it is minimal assuming the opponent has no blasts. I also assume that technically you haven't "moved" so you lose your cover save, but against the Farsight Bomb you aren't getting it anyway. Actually looking at the new FAQ if you scattered too far you could make a turbo boost move away instead of shooting to setup for another attempt the next turn.

"Q: Can Bikes / Jetbikes make a Turbo-Boost move, or vehicles move
Flat Out, on a turn that they arrive from Deep Strike? (p45)
A: Yes."

This is a great idea actually! Didn't consider it. You could even place Loth in front with this method to tank all the plasma with 2++. and still be in range to unleash your Perfect Timing/ Rad Grendade/ I-1 Blind/ Rapid Fire Plasma, and Objuration Mechanicum/Vortex of Doom is quite good against the Tau. Losing Enfeeble isn't that bad against Tau, but losing Endurance might be huge though. I was planning to combine it to force a -2T Haemorrage test on the Farsight Bomb (Focused Witchfire means you can pick out that pesky Command systems suit)....

MarkyMark wrote:Azreal give his unit a 4plus invul though, so they dont have to relie on cover saves, really reduces the speed of the unit though

Nah, having Infantry doesn't really affect the speed of the unit at all, I tried it out last night. The bikes still can move 12" and turbo boost 12", and since they are so big it's not difficult to keep in coherency. Azrael and Sevrin Loth can even shoot while the bikes boost. Against Pinkstar, the Daemons had one turn of shooting. (boosted from 24" away).

I actually had a game last night between a proxied Ravenwing Deathstar (Asmodai's list) and the Farsight bomb. In that game, Tau was actually the under-dog! Why? Because the Dark Angel librarian got Perfect Timing! Perfect Timing + Rad Grenade Launchers + Plasmas = no cover saves and instant death for Tau. That was actually a really bad matchup for Tau as Ravenwing went first. With Scout, basically they can move 24" before Tau can even do anything!

Anyways, that was an exciting game and the battle report will be out later (probably when the tournament is completed).

Also, if you're running Sevrin Loth in the army, he can give the entire unit Endurance. So that's 3+ save, 4++ invuln's and 5+ FNP on a T5 unit!

Looking forward to it! I forgot to bring the camera to record my Deathstar games sadly. I just realise the Farsight bomb is completely reliant on cover saves, as they don't have any Invulns on their suits.

The Scout move has won me so many games by catching opponents completely off guard. If I was playing Tau I'd deploy well at the back to limit the Ravenwing threat range on turn one. (which, granted, is still enormous).

Endurance is huge for RW as the FNP and It Will Not Die on 3 characters (one with 4 wounds) is very strong, also considering the other units don't have Toughness reduction tech other than Enfeeble. Relentless also allows Azrael to rapid fire his Blinding combi-plasma and still assault.

If I'd grade the Ravenstar it would be

Mobility: A-
Not quite as fast as the Seer Council, but still extremely mobile with 12" scout and 24" turboboost range. Also all bike models ignore terrain and dangerous terrain tests with Skilled Rider.

Shooting: A-
Second shootiest Deathstar after the Farsight bomb, but with more tricks. Rad Grenades reduce Toughness by 1, and Stasis can reduce your Initiative by one for I2-3 Blind tests.
Can put out up to 18 twin-linked Plasma shots, with Blind. Can get ignores cover from Diviniation. Can get Null Zone from Sevrin Loth.

Assault: A+
Probably the strongest assault Deathstar in the list, possibly even stronger than the Bloodcrushers. Blind/ Invisibility means most enemies will be fighting them at WS1, and at -1 WS -1 Initiative. Azrael taking the Furious Charge trait means the Black Knights put out 40 Str 6 Rending attacks with 7-10 Str 4 Hammer of Wrath; Azrael puts out 6 Str 7 ap 3 I5 attacks, Loth puts out 6-9 Str 5-9 Ap 2 attacks with Warp Speed and Iron Arm, and Librarian puts out 4 Str 7 Ap 3 Blind attacks on the charge. Lib can get Prescience for re-rolls. Most importantly, Hit and run at I5 means they can disengage, shoot, and charge you again.

Defense: B+
Hugely dependent on cover saves, especially rolling Invisibility for a 2+ cover save. Otherwise, 3+ with 4++ at T5 and 5+ Feel No Pain. Azrael can tank in front with a 2+, 4++ and Sevrin Loth can also tank with a 2++.
No easy access to rerolls. Probably second most squishy Deathstar after the Palstar.

Psychic: A-
Sevrin allows access to all the powers of a single discipline, or Rulebook SM powers, so the element of chance is much reduced. May pick and choose powers to suit situation: Endurance, Enfeeble and Haemorrage during the shooting turns, Warp Speed, Iron Arm and 2++ during assault, or GoI for mobility. ML3 for 5+/4+ DTW.

The only problem with the Ravenstar is that I would never field it in a normal game, because MSU Black Knights is far more effective and nobody plays with Deathstars in my meta anyway.

how does azrael join a biker squad and get to turbo boost 24", i have the book and I dont see where he gets a bike?

i

Also nobody has mentioned what seems to be an ork counter to the tau deathstars cover.. Flashgits!

10 flash gits with every single upgrade, painboy, badruk etc = 595 points.. something like 20 BS2 ignore cover shots with D6-1 Ap and D6+1 Str or some shennanigans.. 27 wounds with both bosses, 31 counting the hull points of wagon. AV14/12/10 with 19" max move per turn... Could very well just end up without a ride, stuck in terrain, out of range and being gunned down.. but IF they got close enough to let off a round of shooting or 2, may make a dent in tau/eldar deathstars

add on ghazgull brings it to 820, then a wagon (riggers, ram, 2 shootas. armor plates might be req'd too.) to 930~

a stock megaboss with BP/cybork is 115 points. Each of the shootier/blasta/mo dakka upgrades are 40 points each (50 if painboy and badrukk have to pay for them too.. which I didn't include costs of)...

megabosses kill ability to run, and overwatch but if you think you're going to get charged on gits, suppose could break both ghazgul and megaboss out of group... (and use them to absorb overwatch for gits if need be)

Theorius wrote:
how does azrael join a biker squad and get to turbo boost 24", i have the book and I dont see where he gets a bike?

i

The Ravenstar can't Run, but Turbo-Boost isn't a Run Move and it's just something that Bikes can do in the shooting phase.

There is no rule against moving at different speeds, just as long as the unit remains in coherency.

As above, the rule is written for only bikers in the unit, it doesnt mention non biker models in the unit, RAW it plays like Christopher says it does, only problem would be if he wanted to run loth and azreal as the unit can only move the d6 inches.