Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They're just 2 bolters stuck together. Why not make them salvo 2/3 or something. GK will hate it, however.

 koooaei wrote:
They're just 2 bolters stuck together. Why not make them salvo 2/3 or something. GK will hate it, however.

Please put your junk back in the pants and step away from the PAGK corpses.

But what are terminators...
-Durable: Not really, AP2 is so common and cheap that its pretty mandatory just to have it in the list.
-Speed: Not. At. All.
-Assault: Yea, let me check what edition we're in.
-Shooting: A stormbolter... 1 in 5 special weapons.
-Conclusion: Terminators will always suck in editions where AP1/2 costs 15 point and Terminator armor alone costs 20 points. I'm also a little salty about a game today with a Centstar... where I get punished for having "durability"... but I suppose thats my fault for not bringing a tourney list

How to improve the terminator they already did, they're called mothafucking Centurions.

 Quickjager wrote:

But what are terminators...
-Durable: Not really, AP2 is so common and cheap that its pretty mandatory just to have it in the list.
-Speed: Not. At. All.
-Assault: Yea, let me check what edition we're in.
-Shooting: A stormbolter... 1 in 5 special weapons.
-Conclusion: Terminators will always suck in editions where AP1/2 costs 15 point and Terminator armor alone costs 20 points. I'm also a little salty about a game today with a Centstar... where I get punished for having "durability"... but I suppose thats my fault for not bringing a tourney list

How to improve the terminator they already did, they're called mothafucking Centurions.

Durability: Inv. For practical purposes storm shields are required for this to matter, given the small numbers of Terminators. Solution would be to pump the base Inv to 4+ and to make Terminators cheaper so you can run bigger squads.
Speed: Ground speed isn't everything. Deep Strike makes something a lot faster than it would be without it. The problem becomes once they land the other guy can walk briskly away, dedicated assault Terminators have to trap things to do much. Solution: If you're going to run Terminators with no guns why not give them the teleporter packs from Dawn of War II? Presumably not the more advanced/better-guided version Interceptors run around with, but a jump pack Terminator unit could be funny (if expensive)
Assault: I don't care what edition we're in, Hammernators are still my most reliable anti-Riptide tool. This is the only place Terminators are actually a lot better than Tactical Marines, but it's also why they're so expensive. Solution: Start them with a power sword base, drop the price.
Shooting: Meh. Cool upgrade guns (Deep Striking heavy flamers always a plus, two-shot missile launchers fun) but not enough of them to count. Solution: Two per five. Done.

Centurions are not an improvement over Terminators. Assault Centurions are outperformed point-for-point by Hammernators unless you're fighting CC walkers, Devastator Centurions are outperformed point-for-point by actual Devastators unless you're running gravspam.

But thats the problem with deepstriking, it ISN'T RELIABLE, so much about Terminators are they are a high-point, high-risk, meh-return.

They serve as a spear to take out a key unit that is worth (almost) always less than them, they were never meant to wipe battlefields single-handedly. OR as a mid field denial unit, which only works if they're threatening. You take terminators you accept the fact that you won't make their point back. But you don't even know if they will do that one goddamn job.

Terminators need improved deepstrike. 1D6 less or something like that, maybe reroll scatter.

Also lets face it, Cents are pretty much always better than Devs because you can take builds to support the Cents better, but not so much with the Devs.

 Quickjager wrote:
Also lets face it, Cents are pretty much always better than Devs because you can take builds to support the Cents better, but not so much with the Devs.

For the same points Devastators can run more guns and more Wounds than Centurions. Centurions are more useful if you're playing a really, really big game and don't mind the exorbitant price tag, Devastators are more cost-effective.

Devs are cost effective when they have a bunker to sit in, which is good, but not feasible every game. Devs become the most cost effective when they have the Ultramarine doctrine active, but that is only one turn.

Please show me a list where Devs are better than Centurions in a tourney list.

 Quickjager wrote:


Terminators need improved deepstrike. 1D6 less or something like that, maybe reroll scatter.

Or keep it 2d6 scatter, but let them assault right out of deepstrike.

 Quickjager wrote:
Please show me a list where Devs are better than Centurions in a tourney list.

Show me a tourney list where Dev Centurions that aren't equipped with grav-cannons are used.

I can tell you that a three-man las/missile Devastator Centurion squad is two hundred and eighty points, for that price you could get a five-man Devastator squad with four missile launchers and a five-man Devastator squad with four lascannons. The Devastators have slightly better firepower (mathematically three twin-linked lascannons and four normal lascannons at BS4 are almost identical, the Devastators get an extra missile launcher), they force the enemy to shoot two different targets, they themselves can split fire, they've got more wounds, and they're easier to give cover. One lucky Vindicator isn't going to make its points back more than double off the Devastators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:


Terminators need improved deepstrike. 1D6 less or something like that, maybe reroll scatter.

Or keep it 2d6 scatter, but let them assault right out of deepstrike.

The 5e Vanguard Veterans rule (decide before rolling scatter if you want to shoot or assault after Deep Striking) should honestly just be part of Deep Strike.

 koooaei wrote:
They're just 2 bolters stuck together. Why not make them salvo 2/3 or something. GK will hate it, however.

Because S4 shooting is awful. That's why.

Also, the only cent devs are the grav ones. The other configuration might as well not exist.

Martel732 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
They're just 2 bolters stuck together. Why not make them salvo 2/3 or something. GK will hate it, however.

Because S4 shooting is awful. That's why.

Also, the only cent devs are the grav ones. The other configuration might as well not exist.

Clearly you've never played against Dark Eldar.

That's what I said. If you're not playing grav-centurions Devastators do their job better.

DE aren't a big enough percentage of the opponent pool to make S4 shooting not terrible. Especially for the price of terminators. S4 shooting is pretty scary on shoota boyz, but on marines it's like spitting into the wind.

 koooaei wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Well they do need a boost in durability but given there first company status, sternguard ammo does not seem a overpowered standard upgrade.

They need a help at times so free special issue ammo sounds one way to help them become more viable

Sternguard ammo stormbolters. That's an interesting idea! But won't it invalidate sternguards? And we'll have topics like: "Redesigning Sternguards".

Yes and no. Sternguard still be 3+ but have combined weapons and can take pods.
Termies have 2+ and deep strike, they also come with power fists as standard. Maybe let them swing at in ititative due to the armours power. Or other bonus to make there armour superior, maybe like a bonus relating to i seem to recall on wiki somthing like the armour able to share visual feeds.

Also add other ideas from those who know more than I and they can stand apart but get a upgrade too.

A melee boost won't help. They need a shooting boost. Badly.

A boost to shooting?
Veterans experience
Due to there experience having face enemies both xeno and traitor there accuracy and skill at finding weak points.

All successful armour saves must be re rolled if shot at by this unit with sergasnt intact.
Maybe way off masrk but just off top of my head.

 jhe90 wrote:
A boost to shooting?
Veterans experience
Due to there experience having face enemies both xeno and traitor there accuracy and skill at finding weak points.

All successful armour saves must be re rolled if shot at by this unit with sergasnt intact.
Maybe way off masrk but just off top of my head.

Not helpful, because they don't generate enough wounds in the first place. As I said, S4 shooting is straight up awful unless its got a special rule to go with it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Please show me a list where Devs are better than Centurions in a tourney list.

Show me a tourney list where Dev Centurions that aren't equipped with grav-cannons are used.

I can tell you that a three-man las/missile Devastator Centurion squad is two hundred and eighty points, for that price you could get a five-man Devastator squad with four missile launchers and a five-man Devastator squad with four lascannons. The Devastators have slightly better firepower (mathematically three twin-linked lascannons and four normal lascannons at BS4 are almost identical, the Devastators get an extra missile launcher), they force the enemy to shoot two different targets, they themselves can split fire, they've got more wounds, and they're easier to give cover. One lucky Vindicator isn't going to make its points back more than double off the Devastators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:


Terminators need improved deepstrike. 1D6 less or something like that, maybe reroll scatter.

Or keep it 2d6 scatter, but let them assault right out of deepstrike.

The 5e Vanguard Veterans rule (decide before rolling scatter if you want to shoot or assault after Deep Striking) should honestly just be part of Deep Strike.

That would work fine for me. It allows for the idea that you have to take a moment to orient yourself after deep-striking, while not making deep strike absolutely pointless for assault heavy armies (I run SW; I never deep strike my termis and I've got 3 drop pods gathering dust on the shelf, because it's useless to my assault heavy wolves). I didn't realize they used to do this, but I didn't pick up the game until just before 7e.

The old vanguard ability was so expensive that I NEVER lost to a list using them. It was totally not worth it.

Martel732 wrote:
The old vanguard ability was so expensive that I NEVER lost to a list using them. It was totally not worth it.

See, this would be one of those cases that I would say it should just be part of the terminator rule set, with no need for a point increase. It wouldn't really change their power balance, since they're having to choose between one of two attacks. Plus, it is one of those things that would make more sense fluffwise. That's what terminators do. Teleport onto the field mid-battle, and skull the opposition.

That would be a thing.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
32-33ppm, start with a power sword, 4+ Inv standard, two upgrade guns per five models. 90% of the problems gone.

Before people start grumbling about not being able to mix guns and melee upgrades I don't want to have to think up another unique toy to hand the Deathwing to compensate for other people getting that unique toy of theirs.

I think if we made the terminators like the wolf guard terminators in codex space wolves, then yes that would be a huge improvement, and probably fix the problem for the most part. I would say then 33pts/model would be appropriate. Maybe they still wouldn't be the best unit but they could help mitigate some of their shortcomings by being more varied in their options. Being able to have a few TH+SS Terminators to stand at the front of the unit would help quite a bit. I must admit that i still think terminator armor should grant +1 Toughness and bikes and wolf mounts shouldnt grant +1 Toughness. But that is just me. I also happen to think a lot of the space marines weapons and options are overpriced for the most part, and that certain units need some change in some of their options. Like tacticals imo should be able to have a choice of two heavy weapons or two special weapons instead of just a special and a heavy.

 NorseSig wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
32-33ppm, start with a power sword, 4+ Inv standard, two upgrade guns per five models. 90% of the problems gone.

Before people start grumbling about not being able to mix guns and melee upgrades I don't want to have to think up another unique toy to hand the Deathwing to compensate for other people getting that unique toy of theirs.

I think if we made the terminators like the wolf guard terminators in codex space wolves, then yes that would be a huge improvement, and probably fix the problem for the most part. I would say then 33pts/model would be appropriate. Maybe they still wouldn't be the best unit but they could help mitigate some of their shortcomings by being more varied in their options. Being able to have a few TH+SS Terminators to stand at the front of the unit would help quite a bit. I must admit that i still think terminator armor should grant +1 Toughness and bikes and wolf mounts shouldnt grant +1 Toughness. But that is just me. I also happen to think a lot of the space marines weapons and options are overpriced for the most part, and that certain units need some change in some of their options. Like tacticals imo should be able to have a choice of two heavy weapons or two special weapons instead of just a special and a heavy.

Oh, don't you dare come after my Thunderwolves. They're perfect, just the way they are. And that's +1 Toughness, Strength, Wounds, and Attacks, BTW.

But the thing is, it's justified by the fluff. The bonus to those attributes represents the combined strength and fury of the wolf and rider. On bikes, the +1 toughness represents the additional armor being provides by all the metal of the bike, presumably. So why is the durability and strength of a suit of holy terminator armor not represented in game terms?

And yeah, SW termis are pretty awesome and versatile (although, keep in mind we pay more for certain things; 48 points for TH/SS instead of 45, 48 Points for 2WC, instead of 40 for 2LC, although wolf claws are S +1). But in fairness, the Rout does a lot of things differently than other Chapters, maybe it's okay that our terminators are different. There are a lot of things other Chapters get that we don't. I think the main problem w/ terminators isn't the basic design of the squad (there's room for improvement, but the basic idea of shooty termis vs assault termis seems sound), it's that issue of having the same strength, toughness, and wounds as an unblooded neophyte scout who has yet to earn his power armor, let alone the sacred Crux Terminatus.

"Oh, don't you dare come after my Thunderwolves. They're perfect, just the way they are. And that's +1 Toughness, Strength, Wounds, and Attacks, BTW"

Sounds like cheese to me.

Martel732 wrote:
"Oh, don't you dare come after my Thunderwolves. They're perfect, just the way they are. And that's +1 Toughness, Strength, Wounds, and Attacks, BTW"

Sounds like cheese to me.

And S6 terminators, as you suggested in an earlier post, aren't? A thunderwove cavalryman is a genetically enhanced super soldier riding on a wolf the size of a rhinocerous. The S5 T5 W2 A4 profile makes sense. Pretty much every marine player has a gripe about the models not reflecting the fluff. Don't hate on T-wolves just because they're one of the few models that do. And keep in mind, a TWC costs 7 points more than a WG Terminator, with just a bolt pistol and a chainsword, and taking a TW as wargear cost 10 points more than taking terminator armor, a storm bolter, and a power weapon.

And they don't feel so cheesy when they get murdered by a grav centstar with invisibility that cost 150 points less.

Martel732 wrote:
A melee boost won't help. They need a shooting boost. Badly.

Two upgrade guns per five.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A melee boost won't help. They need a shooting boost. Badly.

Two upgrade guns per five.

Not nearly enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Oh, don't you dare come after my Thunderwolves. They're perfect, just the way they are. And that's +1 Toughness, Strength, Wounds, and Attacks, BTW"

Sounds like cheese to me.

And S6 terminators, as you suggested in an earlier post, aren't? A thunderwove cavalryman is a genetically enhanced super soldier riding on a wolf the size of a rhinocerous. The S5 T5 W2 A4 profile makes sense. Pretty much every marine player has a gripe about the models not reflecting the fluff. Don't hate on T-wolves just because they're one of the few models that do. And keep in mind, a TWC costs 7 points more than a WG Terminator, with just a bolt pistol and a chainsword, and taking a TW as wargear cost 10 points more than taking terminator armor, a storm bolter, and a power weapon.

And they don't feel so cheesy when they get murdered by a grav centstar with invisibility that cost 150 points less.

A S6 gun on a terminator makes it playble.

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A melee boost won't help. They need a shooting boost. Badly.

Two upgrade guns per five.

Not nearly enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Oh, don't you dare come after my Thunderwolves. They're perfect, just the way they are. And that's +1 Toughness, Strength, Wounds, and Attacks, BTW"

Sounds like cheese to me.

And S6 terminators, as you suggested in an earlier post, aren't? A thunderwove cavalryman is a genetically enhanced super soldier riding on a wolf the size of a rhinocerous. The S5 T5 W2 A4 profile makes sense. Pretty much every marine player has a gripe about the models not reflecting the fluff. Don't hate on T-wolves just because they're one of the few models that do. And keep in mind, a TWC costs 7 points more than a WG Terminator, with just a bolt pistol and a chainsword, and taking a TW as wargear cost 10 points more than taking terminator armor, a storm bolter, and a power weapon.

And they don't feel so cheesy when they get murdered by a grav centstar with invisibility that cost 150 points less.

A S6 gun on a terminator makes it playble.

I agree, I'm just pointing out that there's a difference between something being cheese and something being what it should be while other models are nerfed. If T-wolves are cheese, S6, T5 termis are, too, since cheese is now defined as "adequately reflects fluff".

Personally, I would give Termis a S6 gun, S4, but with furious charge, T5, and an extra wound. And +1 to either weapon skill or ballistic skill, depending on what kind of termis they were.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A melee boost won't help. They need a shooting boost. Badly.

Two upgrade guns per five.

Not nearly enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Oh, don't you dare come after my Thunderwolves. They're perfect, just the way they are. And that's +1 Toughness, Strength, Wounds, and Attacks, BTW"

Sounds like cheese to me.

And S6 terminators, as you suggested in an earlier post, aren't? A thunderwove cavalryman is a genetically enhanced super soldier riding on a wolf the size of a rhinocerous. The S5 T5 W2 A4 profile makes sense. Pretty much every marine player has a gripe about the models not reflecting the fluff. Don't hate on T-wolves just because they're one of the few models that do. And keep in mind, a TWC costs 7 points more than a WG Terminator, with just a bolt pistol and a chainsword, and taking a TW as wargear cost 10 points more than taking terminator armor, a storm bolter, and a power weapon.

And they don't feel so cheesy when they get murdered by a grav centstar with invisibility that cost 150 points less.

A S6 gun on a terminator makes it playble.

I agree, I'm just pointing out that there's a difference between something being cheese and something being what it should be while other models are nerfed. If T-wolves are cheese, S6, T5 termis are, too, since cheese is now defined as "adequately reflects fluff" (mostly; I think they should be WS5, but whatever. I just fix that by running a CotGW detachment, +1WS to all my termis and t-wolves)

Personally, I would give Termis a S6 gun, S4, but with furious charge, T5, and an extra wound. And +1 to either weapon skill or ballistic skill, depending on what kind of termis they were.

I don't care about fluff, really. TWC are an entire unit of monstrous creatures effectively. Fast moving ones, too. I feel that they are significantly undercosted for what they do.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care about fluff, really. TWC are an entire unit of monstrous creatures effectively. Fast moving ones, too. I feel that they are significantly undercosted for what they do.

And entire unit of MCs? Sure, minus Smash, Fear, Relentless, Move Through Cover, and the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase, so essentially, everything that defines MCs.

The TWC's bonuses are paid for by the fact that they're 22 points more than the Wolf Guards whose profile they're built from. Adding a thunderwolf to an HQ who can take one costs 50 points. On top of that, TWC are of limited utility without special weaponry. Throw in some wolf claws, power weapons, power fists, and, of course, storm shields, which are essentially necessary to make TWC a worthwhile unit, and you're talking an average of 70 points per model.

Say I run a TWC with a SS/PF combo (I run two of mine this way). That single model costs me 90 points. He's WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 A4 3+. He'll do strength 10 hits in CC, although at the expense of his initiative 4. Compare that to an actual MC. A basic nemesis dreadknight costs 40 points more than that TWC. He's doing the same strength 10 hits in CC, but he's doing them on initiative 4. On top of that, he's one higher WS, Strength and Toughness, two more wounds, Deep Strike, he's a psyker, preferred enemy (daemons), rerolls 1s on DtW, Smash, Fear, Relentless, MtC, and the ability, if he take ranged weapons, to fire both in the same turn. All of that, for only 40 points more.

TWC are badasses, but they're definitely not "a unit of monstrous creatures", and they pay the points for what they've got.

I still think they are substantially undercosted for what they can do; that makes them cheese in my book. Not as bad as the gravstar, but still pretty broken. You could give terminators S6 stormbolters and the TWC would still be way, way better. That's how bad terminators are right now.

" On top of that, he's one higher WS, Strength and Toughness, two more wounds, Deep Strike, he's a psyker, preferred enemy (daemons), rerolls 1s on DtW, Smash, Fear, Relentless, MtC, and the ability, if he take ranged weapons, to fire both in the same turn. All of that, for only 40 points more. "

If they don't pay huge points for the teleporter, they'll never catch me though.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
32-33ppm, start with a power sword, 4+ Inv standard, two upgrade guns per five models. 90% of the problems gone.

Before people start grumbling about not being able to mix guns and melee upgrades I don't want to have to think up another unique toy to hand the Deathwing to compensate for other people getting that unique toy of theirs.

I think if we made the terminators like the wolf guard terminators in codex space wolves, then yes that would be a huge improvement, and probably fix the problem for the most part. I would say then 33pts/model would be appropriate. Maybe they still wouldn't be the best unit but they could help mitigate some of their shortcomings by being more varied in their options. Being able to have a few TH+SS Terminators to stand at the front of the unit would help quite a bit. I must admit that i still think terminator armor should grant +1 Toughness and bikes and wolf mounts shouldnt grant +1 Toughness. But that is just me. I also happen to think a lot of the space marines weapons and options are overpriced for the most part, and that certain units need some change in some of their options. Like tacticals imo should be able to have a choice of two heavy weapons or two special weapons instead of just a special and a heavy.

Oh, don't you dare come after my Thunderwolves. They're perfect, just the way they are. And that's +1 Toughness, Strength, Wounds, and Attacks, BTW.

But the thing is, it's justified by the fluff. The bonus to those attributes represents the combined strength and fury of the wolf and rider. On bikes, the +1 toughness represents the additional armor being provides by all the metal of the bike, presumably. So why is the durability and strength of a suit of holy terminator armor not represented in game terms?

And yeah, SW termis are pretty awesome and versatile (although, keep in mind we pay more for certain things; 48 points for TH/SS instead of 45, 48 Points for 2WC, instead of 40 for 2LC, although wolf claws are S +1). But in fairness, the Rout does a lot of things differently than other Chapters, maybe it's okay that our terminators are different. There are a lot of things other Chapters get that we don't. I think the main problem w/ terminators isn't the basic design of the squad (there's room for improvement, but the basic idea of shooty termis vs assault termis seems sound), it's that issue of having the same strength, toughness, and wounds as an unblooded neophyte scout who has yet to earn his power armor, let alone the sacred Crux Terminatus.

I realize it is +1 to all those things which is why I think it is too much myself. I realize why it increases toughness, but it doesn't make sense still imo. Improving armor save by one maybe (capped at 2+). I say that being a guy who runs a lot of bikes in his iron hands list. I think SW termies are pretty close to what the terminator entry should be. Maybe standard terminators might allow more special weapons since they are clearly more shooting focused. I do know terminators in general need some changes to be a decent option or for TDA to be a viable option for more than the odd hq (namely the librarian so i can give him a SS). Chosing between bikes or tda or in case of SW thunder wolves should be a more difficult choice imo. I must say i like bikes and thunder wolves as is but maybe they should be nerfed a bit and tda buffed a bit. I just dont know. I do know TDA for a hq choice shouldn't cost more than 25pts imo.