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Besides all of the side effects of a gene seed are physical. Saying traitor geneseed makes traitors is kinda like saying a kid of a rapist is predisposition to rape or a murderer's kid is predispositioned to murder. Which we all know is utter BS and doesn't even hold up in court. If What you're implying is true why would the UM take loyal SMs from traitor legions into their ranks?

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:


No, again, psychic powers are mutations, like the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, the Canis Helix of the Wolves and the Black Rage/Red Thirst of the Blood Angels.
Again, the Bluhd Rhevenz aren't affected by the flesh change 'cause the Mechanicus (or was the Administrorum, I don't remember who controll the gene-seed stocks) could have found a solution. Simply that.

Or Tzeentch decided he had nothing to gain by subjecting them to it.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:


No, again, psychic powers are mutations, like the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, the Canis Helix of the Wolves and the Black Rage/Red Thirst of the Blood Angels.
Again, the Bluhd Rhevenz aren't affected by the flesh change 'cause the Mechanicus (or was the Administrorum, I don't remember who controll the gene-seed stocks) could have found a solution. Simply that.

Or Tzeentch decided he had nothing to gain by subjecting them to it.

Nah, if it was Tzeentch's fault he'd still do it to the Bluhd Rehvenz, 'cause Tzeentch does it for the lulz.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:


No, again, psychic powers are mutations, like the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, the Canis Helix of the Wolves and the Black Rage/Red Thirst of the Blood Angels.
Again, the Bluhd Rhevenz aren't affected by the flesh change 'cause the Mechanicus (or was the Administrorum, I don't remember who controll the gene-seed stocks) could have found a solution. Simply that.

Or Tzeentch decided he had nothing to gain by subjecting them to it.

Nah, if it was Tzeentch's fault he'd still do it to the Bluhd Rehvenz, 'cause Tzeentch does it for the lulz.

I'm impressed; though I have to ask: what makes you think Tzeentch follows mortal logic and reasoning? For all we know, he spared the Blood Ravens for some other plan, just like he spared Magnus and the other Thousand Sons for a time.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

I'm impressed; though I have to ask: what makes you think Tzeentch follows mortal logic and reasoning? For all we know, he spared the Blood Ravens for some other plan, just like he spared Magnus and the other Thousand Sons for a time.

Maybe 'cause no one knows what Tzeentch plots. Maybe he simply doesn't give a damn about Blood Ravens...

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
Besides all of the side effects of a gene seed are physical. Saying traitor geneseed makes traitors is kinda like saying a kid of a rapist is predisposition to rape or a murderer's kid is predispositioned to murder. Which we all know is utter BS and doesn't even hold up in court. If What you're implying is true why would the UM take loyal SMs from traitor legions into their ranks?

Sorry, it isn't just physical

IA: Codex Astartes wrote:The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor.

This is also confirmed in the recent Imperial Armour book Betrayal.

An individual comment is made on the Word Bearers in their respective Index Astartes article

The gene-seed of the Word Bearers was originally thought to be pure, but events subsequent to the Horus Heresy revealed the weaknesses inherent in their genetic make-up.

Wasn't there a mention in one of the heresy books about their faith possibly having a physical cause?

PredaKhaine wrote:
Wasn't there a mention in one of the heresy books about their faith possibly having a physical cause?

Possibly, the IA article goes on to say

The Space Marines of the Word Bearers have a marked tendency towards dogged, unquestioning belief and stubbornness that verges on insanity. Since the Heresy, their gene-seed has become corrupted beyond redemption and those negative traits have been magnified to hideous proportion

 Seaward wrote:

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
Do you have a record of what gene-seed stock was used to create every chapter?
I don't think so.
I think that Minotaurs, for example, descend from the World Eaters. 'Cause they too fuckin' aggressive.

The Carcharadons are known for their aggression as well, and they're a Raven Guard successor. The importance of geneseed in determining combat tactics and general disposition is considerably overstated - or at least inconsistent.

And there you answer your previous question about the skin mutations being locked in. Further mutation has given the Carcharadons grey, shark like skin.
It is a known fact though that certain gene seed gives certain traits. WE Legion were overly aggressive, even before the Butcher's Nails, WB had insane loyalty and fanaticism, though this was often misplaced, DG were very very resilient, RG and their successors are all great at stealth and hit and run, you get the idea.

As for why traitor gene seed would be getting used; after 10,000 years, there's going to be some degradation in even the purest gene seed, so why not try and have a crack at using the only 'pure' gene seed left, 9 samples that have been in stasis for 10,000 years, except for the occasional taking out for study of how to remove any flaws.

The Minotaurs i hope descends from the Ultramarines, if only for the delicious irony.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheDungen wrote:
Because a lot of people dont like loyalist segments of traitor legions for some reason. Its some sort of fluff elitism which is kind of weird since a lot of the fluff doesn't make sense in the first place.

It's because it is a copout and reeks of fan fiction.

"Oh hey guys, my army is made up of loyalists from the Traitor Legions who did not get all traitory! And the Imperium totally knows and is okay with it!"

fall from grace and redemption is classic fiction elements older than feudalism. But as I said i've you want to go all mad about it go ahead most fanfic I've read is still better than codex grey knights.
Also remove the whole imperium know about it and it becomes a lot better, and considering how long 10.000 years really is an how bad the imperium is at science i'm surprised they can tell space marine geneseed from human geneseed much less the different strains of space marine from each other.

Also, the whole we can tell all the primarch's geneseed apart, is an unnecessary piece of fluff, that adds nothing beyond itself and removes the ability for people t tell the stores they want to tell.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:

And there you answer your previous question about the skin mutations being locked in. Further mutation has given the Carcharadons grey, shark like skin.
It is a known fact though that certain gene seed gives certain traits. WE Legion were overly aggressive, even before the Butcher's Nails, WB had insane loyalty and fanaticism, though this was often misplaced, DG were very very resilient, RG and their successors are all great at stealth and hit and run, you get the idea.

As for why traitor gene seed would be getting used; after 10,000 years, there's going to be some degradation in even the purest gene seed, so why not try and have a crack at using the only 'pure' gene seed left, 9 samples that have been in stasis for 10,000 years, except for the occasional taking out for study of how to remove any flaws.

The Carcharadons are great at stealth and hit and run?

If geneseed's degrading, I'd have expected a mention of it somewhere.

I get that you guys like the idea of traitor legions having super-sekrit loyalist chapters - and I'm sure that wouldn't be done to death, as if it isn't already, with fan-made chapters if GW ever confirmed it, so that everybody could be all awesomely unique together - but there's nothing at all in the fluff to support it - aside from a line by one Black Library author, contradicted by another Black Library author - and there's no set of circumstances under which using traitor geneseed makes any kind of sense.

 Seaward wrote:


I get that you guys like the idea of traitor legions having super-sekrit loyalist chapters - and I'm sure that wouldn't be done to death, as if it isn't already, with fan-made chapters if GW ever confirmed it, so that everybody could be all awesomely unique together - but there's nothing at all in the fluff to support it - aside from a line by one Black Library author, contradicted by another Black Library author - and there's no set of circumstances under which using traitor geneseed makes any kind of sense.

Nope mate - it's just too much....
But you have to understand teenage fanboys

 Seaward wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:

And there you answer your previous question about the skin mutations being locked in. Further mutation has given the Carcharadons grey, shark like skin.
It is a known fact though that certain gene seed gives certain traits. WE Legion were overly aggressive, even before the Butcher's Nails, WB had insane loyalty and fanaticism, though this was often misplaced, DG were very very resilient, RG and their successors are all great at stealth and hit and run, you get the idea.

As for why traitor gene seed would be getting used; after 10,000 years, there's going to be some degradation in even the purest gene seed, so why not try and have a crack at using the only 'pure' gene seed left, 9 samples that have been in stasis for 10,000 years, except for the occasional taking out for study of how to remove any flaws.

The Carcharadons are great at stealth and hit and run?

If geneseed's degrading, I'd have expected a mention of it somewhere.

I get that you guys like the idea of traitor legions having super-sekrit loyalist chapters - and I'm sure that wouldn't be done to death, as if it isn't already, with fan-made chapters if GW ever confirmed it, so that everybody could be all awesomely unique together - but there's nothing at all in the fluff to support it - aside from a line by one Black Library author, contradicted by another Black Library author - and there's no set of circumstances under which using traitor geneseed makes any kind of sense.

They don't try to be great at it, but they probably could be if they wanted to, since that was Corax's entire thing.

The mention of degrading gene seed is everywhere, every article about gene seed mentions that it's not as well kept or understood as it was 10,000 years ago and there are higher rejection rates.

I don't find the idea of some 'super-sekrit loyalist chapter' from traitors to be the greatest thing ever. I just think, that in a couple of circumstances, such as the Dark Founding, it could be a decent explanation without all the usual "Oh, Chaos did it!" excuses for why things go wrong. The Heresy was stated as showing previously unseen/ignored flaws in traitor gene seed and it was then locked in stasis for study. I think it makes sense to be used as an experiment and a couple of chapters have a few undesirable traits, rather than unknown mutations not known within any other chapter from the same gene line.

If you read my original post, you'll see the other theories I put forward as to who the Primarch may be, showing that I understand that it is not definitely Magnus, it could equally be ANYONE, I just like to think that the AdMech did a bad thing and used traitor gene seed once or twice.

 Seaward wrote:
I get that you guys like the idea of traitor legions having super-sekrit loyalist chapters - and I'm sure that wouldn't be done to death, as if it isn't already, with fan-made chapters if GW ever confirmed it, so that everybody could be all awesomely unique together - but there's nothing at all in the fluff to support it - aside from a line by one Black Library author, contradicted by another Black Library author - and there's no set of circumstances under which using traitor geneseed makes any kind of sense.

I don't give a feth who the Blood Ravens descend from.

But sorry bro, the Thousand Sons being their forebear is perfectly plausible considering the setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Seaward wrote:
Not all Thousand Sons were psykers. The majority weren't, in fact.

Given the homogeneous nature of Legion recruitment pre-Heresy, yes, I think it's perfectly plausible that Prospero simply produced more psykers than, say, Nostromo, in the same way that Cadia seems to produce a lot of individuals with violet eyes.

Yes yes, that is a very nice strawman you have there, but the sudden emergence of psychic powers among the Thousand Sons Legion occurred before Magnus was found, aka before they started recruiting from Prospero.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I don't give a feth who the Blood Ravens descend from.

That rings a little false given the amount of posts you've made in this thread.

But sorry bro, the Thousand Sons being their forebear is perfectly plausible considering the setting.

Sure, provided you ignore quite a lot of the established background.

Yes yes, that is a very nice strawman you have there, but the sudden emergence of psychic powers among the Thousand Sons Legion occurred before Magnus was found, aka before they started recruiting from Prospero.

Do you have a citation?

 Seaward wrote:

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
IIRC the Imperium has a stock of gene-seed of every Legion, so they *could* have used it to make a chapter, you know, to see what could happen.

But they know what could happen. The chapter could turn traitor.

That is so wrong in fly in face face of 40k.

If you are traitor has nothing to do with who your geneseed comes from. If your logic was true there would be no loyal Space Marines left because every single legion has had traitors inside of it. You may have heard of rogue chapters after all.

Also there were entire companies of loyalist in the traitor legions that refused to turn traitor on the Imperium.


What you said is that if you take a kidney implant from a mass murderer, you will also become a mass murderer also.

 Galdos wrote:

That is so wrong in fly in face face of 40k.

Can you name some verified loyalist traitor successors? There's...come to think of it, not a single one that GW has ever mentioned.

If you are traitor has nothing to do with who your geneseed comes from. If your logic was true there would be no loyal Space Marines left because every single legion has had traitors inside of it. You may have heard of rogue chapters after all.

We've covered this. Chapters go rogue - and their geneseed tithes probably aren't used to found any further successors after they do. A chapter going rogue, however, is considerably different and has much less wide-ranging impact than an entire legion turning traitor did, though, and the fact that they were founded separately from their "parent" chapter makes the situation considerably different than if they had all been founded at the same time, from the same stock, from the same planet, using the same training cadre, etc.

Also there were entire companies of loyalist in the traitor legions that refused to turn traitor on the Imperium.

I keep seeing this assertion, and I'm honestly not sure where it's from. The only ones I can think of were wiped out almost to a man on Isvtaan.

What you said is that if you take a kidney implant from a mass murderer, you will also become a mass murderer also.

Nope, that's not what I said, actually. What I said is that that's how the folks in the 41st millennium - who do not understand their own technology - would view it.

 Seaward wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

That is so wrong in fly in face face of 40k.

Can you name some verified loyalist traitor successors? There's...come to think of it, not a single one that GW has ever mentioned.

If you are traitor has nothing to do with who your geneseed comes from. If your logic was true there would be no loyal Space Marines left because every single legion has had traitors inside of it. You may have heard of rogue chapters after all.

We've covered this. Chapters go rogue - and their geneseed tithes probably aren't used to found any further successors after they do. A chapter going rogue, however, is considerably different and has much less wide-ranging impact than an entire legion turning traitor did, though, and the fact that they were founded separately from their "parent" chapter makes the situation considerably different than if they had all been founded at the same time, from the same stock, from the same planet, using the same training cadre, etc.

Also there were entire companies of loyalist in the traitor legions that refused to turn traitor on the Imperium.

I keep seeing this assertion, and I'm honestly not sure where it's from. The only ones I can think of were wiped out almost to a man on Isvtaan.

What you said is that if you take a kidney implant from a mass murderer, you will also become a mass murderer also.

Nope, that's not what I said, actually. What I said is that that's how the folks in the 41st millennium - who do not understand their own technology - would view it.

One of the fellowships of the thousand sons was not present at the burning of Prospero and when he returned to find the clusterfeth the space wolves caused, states the very motto of the Blood Ravens and remains loyal and true to the emperor in the short story rebirth.

Addittionally, when Thule discovered relics that revealed the origins of the Blood Ravens on Kronus, he was struck by shame and immediately destroyed them. If they were sons of Guilliman he wouldn't have done that, not in a chapter that rivals the Adeptus Mechanicus in it's OCD concerning lost relics. Clearly something about their founding was worth shame enough to risk the wrath of Azariah Kyras by breaking Chapter doctrine regarding lost knowledge.

Also, you are grossly misrepresenting the Adeptus Mechanicus to make your point. More recent novels show that they actually do understand their technology very well. They just have a diehard monopoly on knowledge and skill and an unfavorable view towards progress.

 Kain wrote:
Addittionally, when Thule discovered relics that revealed the origins of the Blood Ravens on Kronus, he was struck by shame and immediately destroyed them. If they were sons of Guilliman he wouldn't have done that, not in a chapter that rivals the Adeptus Mechanicus in it's OCD concerning lost relics.

That's a bold statement to make. For all we know, the origin story he found was simply that the Blood Ravens initially came from another system that had long since fallen under the sway of Chaos, or orks, or whatever else. That'd be pretty shameful.

Clearly something about their founding was worth shame enough to risk the wrath of Azariah Kyras by breaking Chapter doctrine regarding lost knowledge.

Yep. Concluding that we definitively know what that is, however, is absurd.

Also, you are grossly misrepresenting the Adeptus Mechanicus to make your point. More recent novels show that they actually do understand their technology very well. They just have a diehard monopoly on knowledge and skill and an unfavorable view towards progress.

Progress like refining geneseed?

 Seaward wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Addittionally, when Thule discovered relics that revealed the origins of the Blood Ravens on Kronus, he was struck by shame and immediately destroyed them. If they were sons of Guilliman he wouldn't have done that, not in a chapter that rivals the Adeptus Mechanicus in it's OCD concerning lost relics.

That's a bold statement to make. For all we know, the origin story he found was simply that the Blood Ravens initially came from another system that had long since fallen under the sway of Chaos, or orks, or whatever else. That'd be pretty shameful.

Clearly something about their founding was worth shame enough to risk the wrath of Azariah Kyras by breaking Chapter doctrine regarding lost knowledge.

Yep. Concluding that we definitively know what that is, however, is absurd.

Also, you are grossly misrepresenting the Adeptus Mechanicus to make your point. More recent novels show that they actually do understand their technology very well. They just have a diehard monopoly on knowledge and skill and an unfavorable view towards progress.

Progress like refining geneseed?

Considering all the other dirty secrets and blatantly stolen artifacts the Blood Ravens have stashed away, coming from a system that fell to an enemy wouldn't get a rise out of them. This chapter willfully fought with their fellow imperial forces not once, but twice and didn't so much as blink and released one of the most powerful bloodthirsters ever onto the Galaxy and their god damn chapter master turned into a fething DAEMON and was set on drowning the entire galaxy in it's own blood. Something that minor and unimportant would not be worth eternal shame.

As for your point on the Admech, they don't like to make progress at a rapid rate. They still do indeed make advancements and seem to lie most of the time they say something can't be produced anymore, such as with the Storm Eagle which has suspiciously become much more used by chapters that did some favors for the AdMech. There's likely many small refinements made over time, and you can bet that any Chapter in bed with the Fabricator General is going to be first in line to get them, and from what we've seen the Blood Ravens and the Adeptus Mechanicus are pretty close.

I also like how you ignored my first bit of evidence because it was inconvenient to you. Thanks for removing any doubt I had about you being a troll.

 Kain wrote:
I also like how you ignored my first bit of evidence because it was inconvenient to you. Thanks for removing any doubt I had about you being a troll.

You're giving yourself a little too much credit. It's not exactly a secret that some of the BL authors like the "Seriously, guys, they're the Thousand Sons!" line, and some do not. The ones who do tend to drop subtle-as-a-train wreck 'hints' as to their inclinations. If that's what you're basing your assumption on, you might want to look up some of the numerous contradictory outright assertions made in BL novels. I'd start with ADB's take on the Night Lords and Kurze versus whatever the name of the guy was who wrote the older stories.

Look, I get it. You like the totally unique and not-at-all fanwankish "loyalist traitor" thing that hasn't been done by a thousand thirteen year-olds writing up their first DIY chapter. Attempting to 'prove' it in a setting that, according to multiple sources within the company, has no set canon, though? That's just not going to happen.

 Seaward wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I also like how you ignored my first bit of evidence because it was inconvenient to you. Thanks for removing any doubt I had about you being a troll.

You're giving yourself a little too much credit. It's not exactly a secret that some of the BL authors like the "Seriously, guys, they're the Thousand Sons!" line, and some do not. The ones who do tend to drop subtle-as-a-train wreck 'hints' as to their inclinations. If that's what you're basing your assumption on, you might want to look up some of the numerous contradictory outright assertions made in BL novels. I'd start with ADB's take on the Night Lords and Kurze versus whatever the name of the guy was who wrote the older stories.

Well given this I think we're at an impasse and can say that the possibilities of either of us convincing each other is nil. Thus it would be prudent for us to cease this debate lest you once again go about ignoring parts of posts you feel are inconvenient to your point.

 Seaward wrote:


Can you name some verified loyalist traitor successors? There's...come to think of it, not a single one that GW has ever mentioned.

Astral Claws (the Red Corsairs) coming from UM geneseed, Imperial fist (Confirmed The Gildar Rift) Space Wolves (Gildar Rift) Raven Guard (UM novel) UM (UM novel) and thats just what I can think of off the top of my head. Where do you think renegade chapters come from? That they are successors from the traitor legions? They are chapters that either completely went rogue or that are made up of marines that went rogue.

We've covered this. Chapters go rogue - and their geneseed tithes probably aren't used to found any further successors after they do. A chapter going rogue, however, is considerably different and has much less wide-ranging impact than an entire legion turning traitor did, though, and the fact that they were founded separately from their "parent" chapter makes the situation considerably different than if they had all been founded at the same time, from the same stock, from the same planet, using the same training cadre, etc.

The only difference is that a legion is bigger. Otherwise it is no different.

Isstvan

Who do you think we are talking about? The point is that having the same geneseed as a traitor Primarch does not mean you would betray the Imperium. The soldiers on Isstvan proved it when they stood up to their own Primarchs. They are known as heroes of the Imperium.

You also realize the founding members of the Inquisition were ALL from the traitor legions?

 Seaward wrote:
That rings a little false given the amount of posts you've made in this thread.

Yes yes, your ad hominems are very impressive, but let us not detract from the point.

Sure, provided you ignore quite a lot of the established background.

Like?

Do you have a citation?

Why yes actually.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/Pyronftw/ThousandSonsstuff_zps2db3b072.png

 Galdos wrote:
Astral Claws (the Red Corsairs) coming from UM geneseed, Imperial fist (Confirmed The Gildar Rift) Space Wolves (Gildar Rift) Raven Guard (UM novel) UM (UM novel) and thats just what I can think of off the top of my head. Where do you think renegade chapters come from? That they are successors from the traitor legions? They are chapters that either completely went rogue or that are made up of marines that went rogue.

I meant loyalist chapters founded from traitor geneseed. GW has never confirmed one. Not one single example. We have countless examples of loyalist successors. Wonder why that is?

The only difference is that a legion is bigger. Otherwise it is no different.

A legion is representative whole of an entire geneseed pool. A chapter is not.

Who do you think we are talking about? The point is that having the same geneseed as a traitor Primarch does not mean you would betray the Imperium. The soldiers on Isstvan proved it when they stood up to their own Primarchs. They are known as heroes of the Imperium.

And they were a tiny minority compared to the overwhelming majority that did turn traitor.

You also realize the founding members of the Inquisition were ALL from the traitor legions?

No, I don't realize that, largely because it's not true. The Knights-Errant, predecessors of the Grey Knights, certainly were - at least, all the currently known ones, aside from, you know, those pesky Salamanders and Ultramarines - but no known members of the Inquisition were from traitor legions.

I can't see any reason that it's not Magnus.

I stand corrected sir, carry on

Edit: Could anyone tell me the reason why some suspect Gulliman? Kinda curious

 Seaward wrote:

Nope, that's not what I said, actually. What I said is that that's how the folks in the 41st millennium - who do not understand their own technology - would view it.

This is incorrect. The Mechanicum does in fact understand its technology. They wrap it up in ritual and doctrine, but they are actually competent scientists and engineers for all that. They just disdain creativity and innovation.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

Nope, that's not what I said, actually. What I said is that that's how the folks in the 41st millennium - who do not understand their own technology - would view it.

This is incorrect. The Mechanicum does in fact understand its technology. They wrap it up in ritual and doctrine, but they are actually competent scientists and engineers for all that. They just disdain creativity and innovation.

Actually, the Mechanicum don't understand everything. Sure, they're not stupid if we want to put it that way, but they don't comprend all the technology they have/used to have.
Fact: they can't make a Dreadnought Contemptor anymore, sure they lost the projects, but still.
Warp travel machine, they activate them with ritual 'cause they don't understand fully how it works.
And so on.

For the one who said the SW turned traitor, if he's talking about the 13th company they're simply "M.I.A.", but they're still loyal. I don't remember who said it, so I can't quote xD

@Seaward: Again, GW didn't say EVERYTHING. They give you hints. If you WANT disregard them, do it, but it's a fact that the Blood Ravens are probably a 1K Sons successor chapter.