Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 lyrken wrote:
I can't see any reason that it's not Magnus.

Deamon prince, chaos, traitor , genetic flaw, Tzeench, Kyras the Khorne's librarian, year of founding...etc.

.

 Seaward wrote:

I meant loyalist chapters founded from traitor geneseed. GW has never confirmed one. Not one single example. We have countless examples of loyalist successors. Wonder why that is?

Well because they dont want to use them. Of course. I was trying to argue something different. A fine line difference but I guess the point I was trying to make isnt important because the end is kind of what you are saying. THey dont want to use them.

The problem is that the Imperium doesnt actually know who's geneseed the Blood Raven's came from so it is possible they were using the 1000 Sons genes because they hid it. That is a huge part of their fluff, that they are hiding all that information.

A legion is representative whole of an entire geneseed pool. A chapter is not.

And they were a tiny minority compared to the overwhelming majority that did turn traitor.

So what? the very fact that you had loyalist legions that had traitors and traitor legions that had loyalist tells one thing. Geneseed has no impact at all on if you are loyal or traitor.

No, I don't realize that, largely because it's not true. The Knights-Errant, predecessors of the Grey Knights, certainly were - at least, all the currently known ones, aside from, you know, those pesky Salamanders and Ultramarines - but no known members of the Inquisition were from traitor legions.

Im sorry but you are wrong. The Inquisition, the child of Malcador had its first members Nathaniel Garro of the Death Guard, Loken and Iacton Qruze of the Luna Wolves, Varren of the World Eaters, and Rubio of the Ultarmarines

Sources are Flight of the Eisenstein, Garro: Legion of One, Garro: Sword of Truth

oh and Horus Heresy Visions of Death

Don't forget that the Ultramarines recruited loyalist Iron Warriors under the command of Warsmith Barabas Dantioch.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Don't forget that the Ultramarines recruited loyalist Iron Warriors under the command of Warsmith Barabas Dantioch.

YESSSS...that was very cool story...

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Don't forget that the Ultramarines recruited loyalist Iron Warriors under the command of Warsmith Barabas Dantioch.

YESSSS...that was very cool story...

Yes, it was

Especially part about the negotiations :-)

 DarthMarko wrote:
Especially part about the negotiations :-)

Warsmith Dantioch: Vastopol, what do you think?

(Loyalist Iron Warriors Venerable Dreadnought comes out of hiding...AWESOME ensues)

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Don't forget that the Ultramarines recruited loyalist Iron Warriors under the command of Warsmith Barabas Dantioch.

It was a good story ya

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


This is incorrect. The Mechanicum does in fact understand its technology. They wrap it up in ritual and doctrine, but they are actually competent scientists and engineers for all that. They just disdain creativity and innovation.

The mechanicus doesn't know any more science that the people who writes them which is nothing. Ritual is the antithesis of science science is about making things as simple as possible.

The day they quote some actual science even the most basic thing like newtons second law, I'll believe they know what they're doing but until then nope not a chance.

 TheDungen wrote:

The mechanicus doesn't know any more science that the people who writes them which is nothing. Ritual is the antithesis of science science is about making things as simple as possible.

The day they quote some actual science even the most basic thing like newtons second law, I'll believe they know what they're doing but until then nope not a chance.

Mmm actually the mechanicum invented new things (Storm Shield weren't present during the Horus Heresy).
The problem is that for every new thing they make, they lose two.

 TheDungen wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


This is incorrect. The Mechanicum does in fact understand its technology. They wrap it up in ritual and doctrine, but they are actually competent scientists and engineers for all that. They just disdain creativity and innovation.

The mechanicus doesn't know any more science that the people who writes them which is nothing. Ritual is the antithesis of science science is about making things as simple as possible.

The day they quote some actual science even the most basic thing like newtons second law, I'll believe they know what they're doing but until then nope not a chance.

Because a regurgitating crap from a physics textbook makes for such interesting novels!

Actually, whenever I see sound scientific theory in anything I read, it makes the whole novel more enjoyable to me. What can I say, I understand complicated maths, physics, chemistry and biology, and I enjoyed studying them for many years.
If a bit of science is injected, put into layman's terms so everyone can grasp it, it makes the future easier to comprehend.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:


Mmm actually the mechanicum invented new things (Storm Shield weren't present during the Horus Heresy).
The problem is that for every new thing they make, they lose two.

That's technology not science science will start regressing long before technology. Of course in the long run technological progress without scientific is impossible.

 Kain wrote:


Because a regurgitating crap from a physics textbook makes for such interesting novels!

Science is a method a way of thinking, a breaking down of complex problems into their simplest parts to solve them. And yes this thinking works very well in fiction. And if you dont think real life physics can be used well in fiction go watch startrek or stargate, a lot of the science there is hard science. And guess what those IP's are a lot more successful than warhammer 40k.
So if they want their AM to be regressing that's their choice but if they want them to know how to do science they have to show us they can actually look on the world with scientists eyes. Otherwise its just another case of being told rather than being shown. Of course the same thing goes for the Tau.

the F=ma was just an example, I'd much rather see them making Bacon proud.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Actually, whenever I see sound scientific theory in anything I read, it makes the whole novel more enjoyable to me. What can I say, I understand complicated maths, physics, chemistry and biology, and I enjoyed studying them for many years.
If a bit of science is injected, put into layman's terms so everyone can grasp it, it makes the future easier to comprehend.

Yeah there is a consistency to that, sure sometimes you have to break reality to tell the story you want to tell but the closer to it you keep on peripheral things the easier it is to hold consistency across the board.

There are a lot of theories out there.

Magnus seems the most plausible to me.

I think they are most likely loyalists that broke off from the Thousand Sons when they turned traitor.

Thinking on the tech, yeah IK more off topic. Traveling through the warp is like that old movie Event Horizon. Anyone else make that connection?

I did.

I love this forum, threads like these are exactly why I joined.

I have a personal far fetched theroy, and a more than likely reality theroy on who is the primarch of the blood ravens.

Firstly....I think they could be the decendants of a "lost" primarch.

I like to think that Magnus and the unknown primarch of the 11th legion were buddies. It is mentioned in the various HH novels that the pod to the 11th primarch was damaged directly before the scattering. Herego the 11th primarch was more suspeptiable to the warp during his transit.

Him and magus became good buddies since they both had one thing in common...mutation. In being good buddies both legions exchanged warriors to accompany each others legions during the great crusade. This is not uncommon from what we read about it happening with other legions.

I like to believe that the 11th primarch started relying heavily on bio/genetic research to cure his sons of mutation, and finally succeeded with a small number of his seed which eventually came to be the blood ravens. The Emperor was pissed off with him for messing with the recipe for the adaptus Astartes. decided to cull the primarch and his legion after the 11th refused to stop his research. In a brief gambit, sent his successfully repaired genesons to crusade with magnus in secret.

Eventually Magnus would earn the Ire of the emperor and knew that he himself was going to be possibly destroyed for his refusal to obide with the dicatates of the nikea decree. He hoped that perhaps the emperor would have mercy for him, but certainly not if the emperor found that he had been hiding an entire companies worth of 11th legion brothers within his own legion. Magnus then sent the 4th company away from propero with the 11th legion survivors to live on another day.

Eventually the 4th would be brought back into the fold of imperial SM chapters, with the secret intact. This would also go on to explain why the blood ravens are such a secretive chapter.


I know i have a flare for the dramatic.

More than likely they are decendants of Magnus, there are also a couple quotes from "Ahriman exile" that support this claim.

You get a gold star for creativity

Well writen Supertony.

Usually when people come up with their beliefs on what the Blood Ravens or the lost legions are they fail to factor in a lot of evidence. Yours actually covers all the bases.

 Galdos wrote:
Well writen Supertony.

Usually when people come up with their beliefs on what the Blood Ravens or the lost legions are they fail to factor in a lot of evidence. Yours actually covers all the bases.

Thanks for your support!

I have a theroy on the second legion as well.

It is written that the two unknown legions are known as the "lost and the forgotten"

I think it may be possible that the second legions primarch was a Blank of unpresidented power. Along with his legion. After his discovery by the emperor the 2nd legion primarch went on to crusade for the emperor just as hard and successfully as any of his other brothers.

However the second Primarch never got along well with any of his brothers. With their yet undiscovered latent psyhic powers they just couldn't stand being in the presence of their Brother Primarch, especially Magnus. The emperor had his misgivings as well, since the second Primarch could see him for what he truly was.

Most Humans saw the emperor as he wanted himself to be seen, the epitome of perfect humanity. Tall, handsome, and unfathabily strong. However the Second Primarch saw him for what he was, a normal man with a immense precence in the warp. (This is strongly eluded to in the book "outcast dead")

I think the emperor was at a loss as to what to do about his 2nd son. He was faithful and a dedicated warrior to the ideaism of the fledging Imperium, however knew that his son could be a future liability. However the emperor knew that eventually the legion could be a hinging factor in defeating the forces of chaos in a time of emergency. The Emperor knew that he had truly pissed off the Big 4 Chaos gods with his intentions to conquer the galaxy, rid humanity of pagen beliefs, and get away from using warp driven ships for transportation and switch to human built gateways The empeors comprimise with the 2nd primarch was a bold one. Leaving Malacador to supervise, the entire 2nd legion to include the Primarch were put into stasis deep within the catacombs of the largest moon of Saturn....Titan. Only to be awaken during a time of absolute emergency.

Long story short I believe the small wooden box that the Grand master of the knights is a switch which will deactivate the stasis containers of the 2nd legion.


I know im silly. Still a cool thought though

A few little critiques on that theory if I may. The lost legions and their Primarchs are referred to as "the forgotten and the purged." This is because they under went the rite of Obliteration, which is a punishment reserved for those deemed by the Emperor (or later on HLOT, Inquisition) to be Excommunicate Traitoris. At the time of the HH you had to do something REALLY bad to be deemed it unlike the modern IOM.

More over I do not believe the primarch of II would be deemed as Excommunicate Traitoris just because he is a blank since the Emperor used The Sisters of Silence. The Emperor in fact considered these women to be loyal beyond all shadow of doubt. Plus we all know the emp loved to downplay himself so I do not believe he would deem them Excommunicate Traitoris (say that 10 times fast ) for viewing Him as normal. Heck most SM still just consider the emperor as a great warrior no more no less.

I enjoy this thread, this question has come up before on Dakka and I always enjoy reading new views on it... If you search in Dakka for the other threads on this topic they make good reading too.

From what I've read (and there's a lot of discussion on this).. The evidence points overwhelmingly at them being descended from loyalist Thousand Sons.

This does seem like FanSpank to be honest but actually is pretty Grimdark if they ever get discovered/find out where they are from and loads more exciting then them being from Corax or Rouboute

Aren't the Dark Angels "Loyalist Traitors"?

Dark Angels are from Lion El'Johnson a loyal primarch to the end so 1 million resounding nos

The problem I have with Magnus as the primarch comes back to his flawed and unstable geneseed. People bring up "stable" geneseed but if this existed why wasnt it used when the legion was nearly destroyed at its founding?

The fact that they have many librarians is more likely due to the recruiting process. If a recruit is going to be psychic, that is something in the 40k world that is due to their birth genetics not the geneseed.

As far as the missing primarchs being the founders, just no. They have been destroyed. Read the "First Heretic" and it will erase any delusion that the lost and the purged still exist. Also it does not mean that one chapter is lost and the other is purged, they are both "lost and purged."

Once again I must point out GWs position on the lost and purged are so players can make their own SM chapters and CSM warbands. As far as that book it will be on my "next to read" list to see where you are coming from. I do agree with your point on Magnus though. Plus the emp was too busy working on the webway to fiddle with geneseeds to make them more stable. The librarian point I fully disagree with, regular psychers are rare to develop naturally, the talent comes from a flaw in the persons genetics. Geneseeds are GENETIC MATERIAL being implanted in the soon to be SM changing their genetic make-up to something completely different, so if a geneseed has the psycher flaw no coincidence the SM derived from that geneseed have an unusually high amount of psychers

Voted magnus the red considering i'm a fan of the thousand sons-blood ravens connection.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Actually, whenever I see sound scientific theory in anything I read, it makes the whole novel more enjoyable to me. What can I say, I understand complicated maths, physics, chemistry and biology, and I enjoyed studying them for many years.
If a bit of science is injected, put into layman's terms so everyone can grasp it, it makes the future easier to comprehend.

Science the layman can understand? HERE-TEK!!!

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
Once again I must point out GWs position on the lost and purged are so players can make their own SM chapters and CSM warbands. As far as that book it will be on my "next to read" list to see where you are coming from. I do agree with your point on Magnus though. Plus the emp was too busy working on the webway to fiddle with geneseeds to make them more stable. The librarian point I fully disagree with, regular psychers are rare to develop naturally, the talent comes from a flaw in the persons genetics. Geneseeds are GENETIC MATERIAL being implanted in the soon to be SM changing their genetic make-up to something completely different, so if a geneseed has the psycher flaw no coincidence the SM derived from that geneseed have an unusually high amount of psychers

At one time GW pushed the line the lost and the purged were meant for players to use as their own chapters. Even then I wonder if they just didnt say that after the fact rather than pre plan it. Everything and nothing is canon with GW anyway and the current HH storyline has closed options for the mystery chapters.

All the stuff you said about psykers and gene seed is just your own fan fiction take on things, which is fine, but does not have wide currency. There are detailed descriptions as to exactly how the gene seed of a space marine works and no mention of it promoting psychic abilities. By your reasoning the Word Bearers should also have an abundance of psykers because Lorgar was a psyker.

As far as the Thousand Sons go you just cant know what was due to the gene seed and what was the result of Magnus' pact with Tzeentch. If the gene seed made the difference then why werent all the TS psykers? They were all getting the same geneseed after all.

Just because psykers are rare to develop naturally does not mean that a chapter could not recruit more than the usual number of psykers to fill the ranks of librarians. They even have a huge organization of the imperium out scouring the galaxy for human psykers and bringing them back in the Black Ships. Recruiting a lot of psykers is just not a difficult task for a space marine chapter if thats what they want to do.

I voted Fulgrim, didn't want him left out.