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RedSarge wrote:
Hopefully this makes my description more clear in regards to the current state of GW's 3D sculpting and plastics.
Other companies are using 3D sculpting techniques as well, however GW seem to be using it to just kick out kit-after-kit and hope the 'Eavy metal team can paint the details into the model.



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I have to say, I really dont see the point of this picture, I think some of GWs new plastics are excellent, who cares if they are designed and sculpted the old fashioned way?

As a painter, all I care about is the end result, and I think some of their new huge MCs are excellent.

Completely agree. Don't much see the purpose of the photo.

Plastics are amazing for sharp mechanical surfaces, but yeah, I find they are disappointing for animals. I prefer subtle surface textures and accurate musculature for painting.

Jes Goodwin managed to do a good job with the dark elf cold ones within the limitations of designing in plastic, but the animal kits since then have been pretty weak. In part it's a limitation of 3D sculpting, but I think even more critical is the sculptor's weak knowledge of anatomy.

I saw Jes' sketches of the lizard musculature before he designed the out texture and scales, and it made for a convincing, anatomically-plausible creature, despite being imaginary. Compare that to last year's ridiculous Minotaurs, where in place of muscle and sinew, the sculptor laid on slabs of meat in a haphazard fashion. Or the animals in the pictures above, where smooth blobs are placed at random intervals to give a kinda' sorta' organic shape, but look more like balloon animals.

It's like comparing Rob Liefield's artwork to Neal Adams' or Brian Bolland's; it's clear the latter took anatomy lessons in art school. The former are just making it up as they go along.

Guess I don't see the reason for picking of the nits in those models.

I just see neat models.

And I enjoy the uttertly asinine. From old stuff so bad it'd ought to be shot/melted and the new stuff like the Dreadknights or "That could never fly" nonsense from Space Marines to High Elves.

However, I am pissed off at what PP has done to the Trollbloods line. (ALL IMAGES WORK SAFE) They went from rampaging evil monstrous beasts:



To derpy, the last, lonely mauler...:



DURRRDduurr durrr... *sigh*


(And this is the way they should have gone with:

the plastic models look fine to me. I dont think too many of us care if they are anatomically correct or if the fliers could actually fly in real life.

EXCEPT

I HATE the crappy looking flames/smoke that GW is insisting to shoehorn onto everything. i dont know alot about anatomy of animals or how flight worthy something is but we've all seen fire before and GW's attempt looks like crap. If anything it looks like a pile of liquid sludge hanging in the air. Even the crazy ways they paint it doesnt make it look anymore convincing.

edit: it looks like the root system of a tree. it doesnt even resemble fire.

 Mastiff wrote:
Plastics are amazing for sharp mechanical surfaces, but yeah, I find they are disappointing for animals. I prefer subtle surface textures and accurate musculature for painting.

Jes Goodwin managed to do a good job with the dark elf cold ones within the limitations of designing in plastic, but the animal kits since then have been pretty weak. In part it's a limitation of 3D sculpting, but I think even more critical is the sculptor's weak knowledge of anatomy.

I saw Jes' sketches of the lizard musculature before he designed the out texture and scales, and it made for a convincing, anatomically-plausible creature, despite being imaginary. Compare that to last year's ridiculous Minotaurs, where in place of muscle and sinew, the sculptor laid on slabs of meat in a haphazard fashion. Or the animals in the pictures above, where smooth blobs are placed at random intervals to give a kinda' sorta' organic shape, but look more like balloon animals.

It's like comparing Rob Liefield's artwork to Neal Adams' or Brian Bolland's; it's clear the latter took anatomy lessons in art school. The former are just making it up as they go along.

I wonder if it is more a factor that the digital artists are rushed - not having the time that it takes to do the job well.

And that griffon really, really bothers me....

I look at the critter in the WHFB boxed set, and while there are some minor problems I find that the elvish griffon in that box is a great deal better than the one for Karl Franz.

So, aside from the digital sculpt, I just don't like the pigeogriff....

The Auld Grump

Can't say I have much criticism of the latest Griffon for Empire, other than it looks huge and seems to overwhelm anyone mounted on it, even the Emperor KF.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Can't say I have much criticism of the latest Griffon for Empire, other than it looks huge and seems to overwhelm anyone mounted on it, even the Emperor KF.

I really like the model.

And it's obviously a huge improvement over the old model.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

I wonder if it is more a factor that the digital artists are rushed - not having the time that it takes to do the job well.

That's a good point, and probably true in a lot of cases. With the minotaurs, though, they really don't seem to understand where the muscles should lay. For example, they drape a random muscle diagonally over the shins, and have deltoids that appear to be gobbling up the chest muscles. They're taking the time to add muscles, they just don't have a clue where to put 'em.

Yeah, struggling to see what's wrong with the Ravener in that picture, or any of the Tyranids at all. The smooth aesthetic has been going on since 3rd edition, when they DID hand sculpt the larger models as well as smaller models.

The only reason I could think he's got 'Necron torso' at the Ravener is because it's bulky. It's bulky because it's meant to be - it's got a Throax weapon in it. It's bulky to show that different to the similarly sized Warriors that don't have Throax weapons.

If he's talking about the squared off edges, all Tyranids have that, even the hend sculpted little guys like Gaunts.

The Tyranid in that picture at least is basically inventing a problem out of nothing.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Can't say I have much criticism of the latest Griffon for Empire, other than it looks huge and seems to overwhelm anyone mounted on it, even the Emperor KF.

I went and took another look at it, and all I could see was this:



World's fattest chicken.

It's a good sculpt, just big, as you say.

 Mastiff wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Can't say I have much criticism of the latest Griffon for Empire, other than it looks huge and seems to overwhelm anyone mounted on it, even the Emperor KF.

I went and took another look at it, and all I could see was this:



World's fattest chicken.

It's a good sculpt, just big, as you say.

It's a little big in the chest, but by no means bad. I do think the one CMoN is better because he's thinner in the chest, but I do like it more than the Confrontation one (can't believe I said that).

 Flashman wrote:
Didn't Morley also do those 3rd edition shoddy Striking Scorpions that I posted earlier?.

But if he sculpted Heinrich Kemmler, all sins are forgiven

The DE Mandrakes and Grotesques (3rd ed) were his as well and IMO his worst abomination.

 Mastiff wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Can't say I have much criticism of the latest Griffon for Empire, other than it looks huge and seems to overwhelm anyone mounted on it, even the Emperor KF.

I went and took another look at it, and all I could see was this:



World's fattest chicken.

It's a good sculpt, just big, as you say.

I was thinking 'Pigeon' - but, yeah - not the fore of a hunting bird.

Plenty of meat though, Thanksgiving is gonna be goood!

In the case of the Ravener, it is just not as good as many of the other 'Nids, detail is soft. Likely would be soft, even in metal. Not... all that fearsome.

But the 'Nids have always been sort of hit or miss with me - some very nice sculpts (both in plastic and in metal) and some not very good sculpts (in both plastic and metal). Heck, the very first 'Nids, with those weird duck feet sticking out of the sides.... (From the Rogue Trader days....)

The thing about crappy models in plastic... the molds are expensive enough that those mistakes are likely to be around for a while.

And my problem with current trends is that they are so very cartoony, including the Emperor on His Chocobo. I remember when the Emperor was a weedy wretch, chosen by the Elector Counts because he would be easy to push around....

I am sure that there are some nice enough plastic characters... but the ones that I notice? Those tend to stick in my mind because the stick in my craw....

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


And my problem with current trends is that they are so very cartoony, including the Emperor on His Chocobo. I remember when the Emperor was a weedy wretch, chosen by the Elector Counts because he would be easy to push around....

The Auld Grump

You mean when his mount looked like this:



Poor Karl looks like he's riding the family pet...not a fearsome beast.

Again, the CMoN one....


Is much better, but still....it's a definite improvement.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
In the case of the Ravener, it is just not as good as many of the other 'Nids, detail is soft. Likely would be soft, even in metal. Not... all that fearsome.

The Raveners details are no softer than any other plastic Tyranid, including the 2nd edition plastic Termagants and Genestealers. It's a typical case of GW's official schemes being either terrible or terribly executed.

As for being fearsome, I think the real issue is the pose. The very static positioning of the tail makes it very hard to make it look like it's doing anything but yelling 'boo!'. But the Trygon suffers from this as well. Nothing to do with the detail.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
But the 'Nids have always been sort of hit or miss with me - some very nice sculpts (both in plastic and in metal) and some not very good sculpts (in both plastic and metal). Heck, the very first 'Nids, with those weird duck feet sticking out of the sides.... (From the Rogue Trader days....)

Well, that's like any model range from any company. I've yet to find one where I like everything. Even with Tyranids, I'm not a fan of the Biovore or their Ripper solution. Forgeworld 'Ripper wave' is much better.

the new daemons look good ton of detail on the nurgle stuff and other models

 -Loki- wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
In the case of the Ravener, it is just not as good as many of the other 'Nids, detail is soft. Likely would be soft, even in metal. Not... all that fearsome.

The Raveners details are no softer than any other plastic Tyranid, including the 2nd edition plastic Termagants and Genestealers. It's a typical case of GW's official schemes being either terrible or terribly executed.

As for being fearsome, I think the real issue is the pose. The very static positioning of the tail makes it very hard to make it look like it's doing anything but yelling 'boo!'. But the Trygon suffers from this as well. Nothing to do with the detail.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
But the 'Nids have always been sort of hit or miss with me - some very nice sculpts (both in plastic and in metal) and some not very good sculpts (in both plastic and metal). Heck, the very first 'Nids, with those weird duck feet sticking out of the sides.... (From the Rogue Trader days....)

Well, that's like any model range from any company. I've yet to find one where I like everything. Even with Tyranids, I'm not a fan of the Biovore or their Ripper solution. Forgeworld 'Ripper wave' is much better.

The static pose is a big part of it, but the biggest is that I do not find myself believing the articulation. It does not look like a fearsome ravener to me, it looks like a plastic toy.

But then I look at the old Screamer Killer... which, to be honest, is worse than any of the recent line that I can call to mind. Even at the time it made me think 'hunh, I guess they want to give the 'nids a dreadnaught... not a good model though....'

3e had what I liked best in plastics, since then... meh.

But then I quit the game at the end of 3e - I have not liked the rules since, so I have not been paying any real attention to the minis, other than what I see when drifting through the aether.

Fantasy I watch more keenly, my main RPG setting is inspired by Germany, Circa 1630. But those... have been attracting me less and less, going from hit or miss to missing on three cylinders.

It does not help that I do not like the current rules for WHFB, either. (On the other hand, I play Kings of War - the figures would work for either.)

I have not bought any GW since mid 2012, when I bought some fairly decent terrain from them - a store was going under, and I took advantage.

So, while I do not much like the current releases the biggest reason remains the price.

Though... having finished a commission of Vampire Counts plastics... not a big fan of an awful lot of the Battalion box.... Zeds, Ghouls, and Cart... all... just plain bad.

Made worse by the fact that I wanted to like the ghouls and cart... only to like them less than anything else in the box. I like ghouls, likely more than any other undead - I can field over a hundred, a mix of GW metals (from the Mordheim days), Reaper, and Mantic. (Not a rules thing, I just like ghouls... ever since reading Lovecraft in 1976....)

The cart is the worst, but salvageable - it is the stupid, stupid, stupid crippled zombies pulling the cart. Why would anybody think that those were a good idea?

It may be sculpted better than the Skeleton War Wagon by RAFM, but I like the RAFM model about a hundred times better.

But... salvageable, just replace the crippled zeds with skeletal horses.

The Auld Grump

 Lovechunks wrote:
the new daemons look good ton of detail on the nurgle stuff and other models

I'd have to disagree with you there.

I present the "coral chariot".



The new Daemons are either pathetic or overly cartoonish compared to the ones they replaced. The only model even remotely decent from that last release was perhaps the Khorne herald and even that's kind of subpar compared to what they've released in the past.

 n0t_u wrote:

 Lovechunks wrote:
the new daemons look good ton of detail on the nurgle stuff and other models

I'd have to disagree with you there.

I present the "coral chariot".



The new Daemons are either pathetic or overly cartoonish compared to the ones they replaced. The only model even remotely decent from that last release was perhaps the Khorne herald and even that's kind of subpar compared to what they've released in the past.

hmmmm well that wouldnt be nurgle would it the big horror blowing the flames lacks some detail the rest of the model has good detail you cant always judge a model by the cover i own this model and there is detail

 Lovechunks wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

 Lovechunks wrote:
the new daemons look good ton of detail on the nurgle stuff and other models

I'd have to disagree with you there.

I present the "coral chariot".

Spoiler:

The new Daemons are either pathetic or overly cartoonish compared to the ones they replaced. The only model even remotely decent from that last release was perhaps the Khorne herald and even that's kind of subpar compared to what they've released in the past.

hmmmm well that wouldnt be nurgle would it the big horror blowing the flames lacks some detail the rest of the model has good detail you cant always judge a model by the cover i own this model and there is detail

I've seen the model... no, those flames are amazingly undetailed in person, and the daemons... yeah... right. :(

Sorry, not a good model. It is one that I would turn down as a commission - just not worth the trouble.

Which, again, is too bad. Of the Chaos Powers Tzeentch is my favorite, but the recent models for Tzeentch... Bleh. One of the terrain pieces that I mentioned above was Tzeench themed - I have no idea what I will use it for, but it looks fine. The terrain kits show that GW can still do a good job on occasion.

But The Coral Chariot.... I blame this one on the All Armie$ Need Big Model$ syndrome. Which is more than half of my main dislikes in recent models.

Made quickly on a CAD and pushed out the door.

Now, that said, there is a good element - I like the manta rays that are pulling it. Not as much as the standard rays, but okay.

Someone else may be able to salvage it, but... too much work to be worth my time. Obviously, you disagree - but the detail... just is not there.

But, shamefully, I will admit to a weakness for the Mortis Engine, merely because of the version that Tinracer has done up as a merry-go-round. It fits the theme of his army, and makes the model worthwhile.

But if I had not seen images of his reinterpretation of the model... it would be in the same category as CC.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* To be honest - terrain plays to the strongest points of CAD and 3D modeling, while organics play to the weakest. It is a lot harder to create a good looking humongous creature than to create a building.

Have any samples of the typical commission you do? A bit surprised to hear that someone would turn down a commission simply because they didn't like the model.

 TheKbob wrote:
However, I am pissed off at what PP has done to the Trollbloods line. (ALL IMAGES WORK SAFE) They went from rampaging evil monstrous beasts:

Spoiler:

To derpy, the last, lonely mauler...:

Spoiler:

DURRRDduurr durrr... *sigh*

Damn, you won't like the new Bouncer then either . The problem with the dire troll kit is that they combined all 3 dire trolls into a single one, where they previously had 3 different metal kits with very different poses. The metal ones flowed really well because that is what metals are good for: single dynamic poses. Having to have different heads, hands and even back piece has made the Mauler look a bit derpy - but the plastic Bomber and Blitzer look quite a bit better than the plastic Mauler.

The chariot of Tzeentch is an example of how the CAD plastics are really fooling us into thinking it's an amazing kit. When the reality is that its poorly detailed overly-smooth plastic with little musculature or anatomy.

Would a sculptor HAND sculpt flames like that? I hope not as the above pointed out the new GW trend of smoke/flame effects that are little more than smooth plastic shapes or coral reefs.

But hey, we buy it. So the treadmill continues.

Okay, as chance would have it I was just hired to paint two boxes of the Isles sets....

First off - I will not subject this to the same kind of critique that I would a box of infantry models - this is intended as a less expensive entry point, so there are things that would bother me if they were to happen with a standard infantry box that I will handwave here.

Second - I am only describing the models that I have started working on.

The Good: The elves, for the most part, are actually pretty decent, the cavalry officer is quite nice - aside from lack of detail in the mane, tail, and plumes. A much better horse than the aardvarks that they had for a while.

The griffon... is not at all bad aside from undetailed feathers. Understandable for the lower priced entry box.

The greatswords... more of a mixed bag - the lack of undercuts is noticeable - I will need to block in some shadows. Not terrible, just not as good as the other elves.

The person that bosses the Rat Ogre around is okay - not as good as the elves, but head and shoulders above the other Skaven.


The Bad: The Skaven.... lack of any real definition on the fur and teeth, the same heads over and over, with minor details changed, virtually identical poses.... A disappointment after the generally good job on the elves.


The Ugly: The rat ogres... bad, bad, definition on the fur and 'clothes', cables and hoses that make no sense... The worst models in the set.


Over all: Better than I expected. Not worth the high sticker price, but better than most of GWs prices.

The Skaven... kind of disappointing, but the elves... much better than expected.

So... a 7.5 out of 10 - much better than the 5 out of 10 that I was expecting to give the box. (Mostly because of memories of the models in Skull Pass.) Brought down by the Skaven, but acceptable.

The griffon bothers me a great deal less than Karl Franz and his Chocobo. Not as good as some models, but better than I could reasonably expect.

Make of this what you will. These date back to 2010, but are still the most recent non-terrain models that I have had my actual hands on. (The Chaos... stuff... is a friend's - I have had my hands on, but only to pick up the frames, turn them over in my hands, and go 'meh'.)

The Auld Grump, or sometimes even 'feh'.

that fire looks like they just stick one of their trees in its mouth

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
that fire looks like they just stick one of their trees in its mouth

The whole idea of sculpting fire is pretty stupid to me. The only way it can look good is with good OSL, and 99.9% of people can't paint good OSL.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
that fire looks like they just stick one of their trees in its mouth

The whole idea of sculpting fire is pretty stupid to me. The only way it can look good is with good OSL, and 99.9% of people can't paint good OSL.

not even they can, it looks horrendous

This looks horrendous?

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
This looks horrendous?

Good paint job on a bad miniature.

The figure itself... not 'horrendous', but, yeah... bad.

GW can do much better, and charges as though they had done better - which is where this sculpt goes from 'bad' to 'horrendous'; if it were reasonably priced it would just be 'bad'.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* In particular, the area under the coat is not even cleaned properly prior to painting.