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kb305 wrote:

Griever wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
GW has had some damned stupid ideas, each new release always has 1-3 "giant plastic kit of some horribly bad idea".

Meanwhile, the core infantry is left to rot with model kits that are 15 years old and look like crap.

HE are the perfect example, this release could have been new archers and spearmen instead of stupid eagle chariot and shadow warriors plastic kit that doesn't look much different to the old metals and is the same price.

I don't know how GW have managed to constantly and completely screw up the HE release.. this edition they've both been in the starter, and gotten an army book but they're still stuck with the same old goofy as hell hamfist core plastics.

Even the Mantic elves look better than those ancient minis. Seriously, I own both the GW and Mantic ones. And I don't really like the mantic ones all that much, but the GW ones are just atrocious and need to be sent to go live on a farm pronto.

They're so bad I couldn't even give the models away to someone with a 4th edition HE army, he flat-out refused. :p

Exactly, if they re-did the spearmen, archers, and silver helms I would've bought bucket loads of them and started an army, I love the High Elves. They are the army that got me into GW and war-gaming in the first place.

Instead they released two kits that are basically the same thing (a flying eagle boat is mind-bogglingly stupid) which you will never use more than two of, and another kit of a chaff/skirmishing unit which you will also probably never need more than two boxes of.

Consider selling two $60 kits and two $50 kits over selling me 4-6 boxes of $35 spearmen, 2-4 Boxes of $35 bowmen, and 4-6 boxes of $25 Silver Helms in addition to all the other stuff I'd need starting a new army.

The worst part is, they make their outdated core infantry kits look even more dated because the detail on the new stuff is so much better by comparison. I can't wait for the day when a company finally gets the balls to compete with Fantasy and 40k directly and completely wrecks them. Privateer Press already makes much better models. Still, the market is flooded with a thousands of small scale skirmish games that nobody plays for more than a couple of weeks.

why would they redo those? there's absolutely nothing wrong with them. what exactly do you not like about them? Do you need more feathers? Or do you need sparkly snow flakes on your core troops?

speaking of the sparkly snowflake thing... damn, that is one of the dumbest models iv seen. GW really needs to stop trying to sculpt fire onto everything. The flames one looks terrible, the sparkly snowflake thing is even more dumb.

on the other hand the shadowwarriors look awesome.

You must be joking. If you can't see those are horrible models, you have no room to comment on this thread.

Stand a Phoenix Guard next to a Spearmen. Stand a Wood Elf Glade guard next to an Acher. Stand a Dragon Prince next to a Silver Helm. It's incredible how bad those sculpts are. Little variation in pose, massive gorilla hands, the archers look like monkeys.

I have to laugh at the guy saying Necrons are an example of the models getting more cartoony. I guess there had to be SOMEONE out there who thought the recliner of doom and giant pharaoh hats were a good thing.

 Flashman wrote:
For those putting on their rose tinted glasses of nostalgia, there have been plenty of poor sculpts in the past.

I present Exhibit A...

Those Scorps are not the oldest versions of these models.

These are the originals.



The Striking Bunnies are from around 2001 when codex Craftworld Eldar was released. They're not really something someone would put into the "nostalgia era" IMO.

Honestly, if you don't like the look of the High Elf Spearmen, get some of the IoB Sea Guard from eBay. Even if GW had re-released the Spearmen, I reckon the IoB Sea Guard would still look better and would definitely be cheaper to get your hands on.

Besides, wasn't there some rumour a while back of a HE Second-Wave which would contain new spearmen models?

 Bookwrack wrote:
I have to laugh at the guy saying Necrons are an example of the models getting more cartoony. I guess there had to be SOMEONE out there who thought the recliner of doom and giant pharaoh hats were a good thing.

Whereas I'll just laugh at the guy who apparently forgot there have been three waves of Necron models, not two.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:
I have to laugh at the guy saying Necrons are an example of the models getting more cartoony. I guess there had to be SOMEONE out there who thought the recliner of doom and giant pharaoh hats were a good thing.

Whereas I'll just laugh at the guy who apparently forgot there have been three waves of Necron models, not two.

Bookwrack is referring to the range of Necrons that came at the tail-end of 2nd edition.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Flashman wrote:
For those putting on their rose tinted glasses of nostalgia, there have been plenty of poor sculpts in the past.

I present Exhibit A...

Those Scorps are not the oldest versions of these models.

These are the originals.



The Striking Bunnies are from around 2001 when codex Craftworld Eldar was released. They're not really something someone would put into the "nostalgia era" IMO.

I'm sure he meant to say "Nagash".

GW has become a strict "Sir, yes, Sir" company with bean counters deciding everything without any feedback.
They say "We need more expensive kits", designers have to struggle to make flyers and monsters for every army.
To maximize profit, those have to be 2-sprue models for the price of 3-sprue models, so only chibi-flyers possible.
They say "We need more double kits", designers have to shoehorn any two units into one kit.
They say, "New ideas are risky, stay with old concepts", designers have to copy-paste old models into bigger new ones.
One manager said, "hey I liked He-Man and Dinobots in my youth, why not make something like this?" And the designers said "Yes, Master. Good idea, Master."

I think production capacity has increased creative capacity with GW. Years ago a release would either be much smaller, or would include units for many different armies. Unsurprisingly what was released was nearly always a hit. Now there's still always 1 or 2 good kits, but the rest is absolute dross, more like filler than anything else.

 Kroothawk wrote:
GW has become a strict "Sir, yes, Sir" company with bean counters deciding everything without any feedback.
They say "We need more expensive kits", designers have to struggle to make flyers and monsters for every army.
To maximize profit, those have to be 2-sprue models for the price of 3-sprue models, so only chibi-flyers possible.
They say "We need more double kits", designers have to shoehorn any two units into one kit.
They say, "New ideas are risky, stay with old concepts", designers have to copy-paste old models into bigger new ones.
One manager said, "hey I liked He-Man and Dinobots in my youth, why not make something like this?" And the designers said "Yes, Master. Good idea, Master."

The sad/funny thing is, this is probably all true.

I happen to like all of the new HE kits.

You're also wrong if you've convinced yourself that PP is making consistently better models than GW. At least all of GWs stuff is in scale with one another. Hello Black 13th.

You can choose not to like them, but to say they're poorly done is wrong.

 cincydooley wrote:
I happen to like all of the new HE kits.

You're also wrong if you've convinced yourself that PP is making consistently better models than GW. At least all of GWs stuff is in scale with one another. Hello Black 13th.

You can choose not to like them, but to say they're poorly done is wrong.

*Looks at the scale of dwarfs from the '80s, the '90s, the '00s, and the '10s.*

*Starts laughing.*

*Looks at that post.*

*Keeps laughing....*

Seriously, GW's scales are all over the freakin' place. Sometimes they are consistent in a range for an edition, but look at the Dark Eldar of 3e....

Not saying that other companies don't have scale problems, but saying that GW doesn't? Oy! They are not the worst, but they are not above the middle of the field in regards to accurate scale.

The Auld Grump - that said, some of their sculptors are excellent about keeping to scale. The Perry twins, Goowin, a few others....

Laugh all you want. Show me any of their modern plastics (the topic of this discussion) that are out of scale with one another.

 cincydooley wrote:
Laugh all you want. Show me any of their modern plastics (the topic of this discussion) that are out of scale with one another.

Gee... did you say modern plastics, or are you just now cutting the field to allow for an obvious misstatement?

As for more modern models... look at the Empire line for Fantasy - the infantry are fine, the plastic cav are fine, the folks on monsters...? What?

The models that are included with terrain?

A whole freakin bunch of the current Chaos range? Consistent within units, yes, across the range?

Tell you what... I will keep on laughing, and let you do your own digging....

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:
I have to laugh at the guy saying Necrons are an example of the models getting more cartoony. I guess there had to be SOMEONE out there who thought the recliner of doom and giant pharaoh hats were a good thing.

Whereas I'll just laugh at the guy who apparently forgot there have been three waves of Necron models, not two.

Opinions are like donkey-caves, and you really need to learn how to wipe.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Laugh all you want. Show me any of their modern plastics (the topic of this discussion) that are out of scale with one another.

Gee... did you say modern plastics, or are you just now cutting the field to allow for an obvious misstatement?

As for more modern models... look at the Empire line for Fantasy - the infantry are fine, the plastic cav are fine, the folks on monsters...? What?

The models that are included with terrain?

A whole freakin bunch of the current Chaos range? Consistent within units, yes, across the range?

Tell you what... I will keep on laughing, and let you do your own digging....

Did you read the whole thread? In the intro post he very specifically says 8 months and then focuses on the High Elf releases.

That's what I focused on.

And all that empire stuff is still in scale with one another. As is the Chaos stuff. The new chaos models are certainly more detailed, but they're not out of scale.

Reading comprehension FTW.

I agree with the several posters who have noted that technical proficiency and, heck, I would say, artistic detail, have gone up, but fundamental design decisions have dropped precipitously.

I think the phrase is 'polishing a turd'.

GW has some fantastic sculptors and designers, who do some really amazing work. However, I honestly think that they are being hamstrung by 'design decisions' made by marketing (as noted by others):

Mandatory 'big monster' kits. Sometimes, these are great models, which also fit in with the established background (Arachnarok). Other times, they are totally stupid ideas, but even then, are beautifully sculpted. It's fething stupid that Imperial Griffons are huge, massive beasts while High Elf Griffons are lean, acrobatic predators. Both sculpts are technically accomplished, but one guy was forced to make a 'big monster'.

Mandatory 'dual use' kits. Dual use kits are a great idea, IF both uses of the kit make sense, and it doesn't just shoehorn two variants into one box. The Ork plane is a beautiful kit with three variant builds which are all great (not necessarily great rules for all three, but I digress). Other kits are 'fake variants', like the Grey Knights Terminators. Please. You have two different Terminator units. The kit just has a bunch of variant stuff. It's not two separate builds. Then, you have the stuff which is just stupid, because you HAVE TO HAVE TWO BUILDS. The Ogre Stonehorn and Thundertusk. Ugh. So, the Stonehorn slowly turns into stone, which is why patches of his fur are missing and exposing stone. So, why does the Thundertusk have the same patches, again?

Mandatory monstrous cavalry, on a particular base size. I'm not saying I hate the Demigryph Knights, but really, they are just there because Empire was required to have a monstrous cavalry box set. Ogres had an awesome, characterful monstrous cavalry unit, the Rhinox riders, but instead, GW puts out these Flintstones looking goofy cats (whose tusks grow in different directions?) because they are what would fit in a box set at the price point indicated.

GW should be making new models when they have a good idea for a new model, and a good design, and a good place in the range. Instead, they are forcing arbitrary 'slots' in the range to be filled with something, anything. The sculptors and designers overall, are working really hard, but they are working under an arbitrary and counter-productive series of directives, in my opinion.

GW just digging its bottomless pit of a grave even deeper.

In some cases you can blame the studio paintjobs for highlighting the goofy cartoony ridiculousness of the plastic kits.

I'M LOOKING AT YOU, CHAOS.

BaconUprising wrote:
Just been looking through the recent new releases over the past say 8 months and GWs models have become terrible! There clunky and goofy looking, details haven't been picked out properly. They have really let their game slide! They were producing better models 5 years ago then they are now. Then I saw the new HE release and nearly wept... For those who haven't seen it, their terrible. Seems like forge world is the only one producing good models these days...

It seems to me you are in ignorance of reaper and privateer press. The problem with GW is that they are losing money, and trying to shore up the losses by stifling their own market, and using less experienced writers and designers to develop their games and products,mwgile at the same time trying to switch their entire metal production line into resin( this may be done), and resin to plastic, while nuzzling into the pants of those who currently hold the rights to LOTR. Add to that the PR debacle that's been ongoing for the past few years, and my belief that they are exclusively comparing themselves against mantic in terms of competition( who put out a visually inferior product, at darn good prices, not to mention the fact that the case is actually reusable for army transport...) ..... That and it's called growing up. I can tell you that when I encountered space smurfs, they looked like sex machines. Now thy look to me like darth vader's macho, angry and less suave pant-wetting second-cousin. Your expectations climb, and GWs policy decisions of the pas 10 years are the result.

All that said,MIT hasn't been all doom and gloom. GWs line of terminators--Erm, Necrons--, are actually quite well done, and the emo space dominatrix elves were also a smashing success, and the tyranid additions were sexy too... Their entire product line has not been up to snuff, And I imagine it's because of the factors I outlined above, but then the Necrons and dark Elgar could have been smashingly well done specifically because so much time was spent on their update, since they were among the oldest of the books...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da betcha, I read, and I like what you have to say, but it made apparent to me what I notice now and again as a glaring problem in games, because I have not found a system that does not do what you pointed out.

Herpmerdepers have thunder badger cavalry, which are monstrous cavalry units with x y z characteristics, hence derpingtonites must have a comparable unit, wich is monstrous cavalry with characteristics x y z, and we shall call it the camel cougar chargers.

Its off topic at this point, but I wonder if that trap is responsible for a lot of stifling across many brands, and not just GW, because each force has to have the same charts, and the same units in each chart entry, with some variance....

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Flashman wrote:
For those putting on their rose tinted glasses of nostalgia, there have been plenty of poor sculpts in the past.

I present Exhibit A...

Those Scorps are not the oldest versions of these models.

These are the originals.



The Striking Bunnies are from around 2001 when codex Craftworld Eldar was released. They're not really something someone would put into the "nostalgia era" IMO.

He never said they were the originals. He said there have been plenty of old sculpts in the past, and used them as an example.

I think that, after Dark Eldars release, they started to ruin their plastic kits.

GK had goofy PA models (and that stupid thing called dreadknight). Necrons became "tomb kings in space", instead of "terminator meet matrix in 40k" (seriously, why pilots in the machines?). The starter refreshed my hopes, with some outstanding models (to much wings here and there, but those chaos champions!!!), just to the chaos release itself come with dinobots (and nice looking raptors, i must admit). Dark Angels give me nothing i could say "great".
Tau i have not seen any at person, but they look strange, the new designs are overexagerated (riptide), and "not better than the old" (broadside).
Flyers have just been a bad ideia, only the orks and dark eldars have good flyer models, other armies have stocky ridiculous things (flying bricks, croisants and dinobots).

GW lose its visual identity, replacing it with something they feel as more comercial and sale friendly. But have done that in a bad moment, as a lot of other companies are making their own (most time better) plastic miniatures.

As an example: for me comparing Mantic Enforcers with Dark Angels Paladins is much like to compare the Avengers Movies with the League of Justice Animated serie. Booth are cool, call me good memories, but the first is epic, the second is just an animated series...

I happen to like both of those sets of striking scorpions. exhibit a conveys that they are about to leap on their prey , looks good i think.
the 2nd lot kick arse , but look alot chunkier than the first lot. Same scale? i have no idea.

Bullockist wrote:
I happen to like both of those sets of striking scorpions. exhibit a conveys that they are about to leap on their prey , looks good i think.

Until you look closer and see the rabbit teeth, which completely destroys the look of the model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Tau i have not seen any at person, but they look strange, the new designs are overexagerated (riptide), and "not better than the old" (broadside).

... how is the new Broadside not better than the old? The old Broadsides were the terrible Crisis Suits with shoulder guns glued on top. The new broadside actually looks like a heavy combat suit.

I don't think anyone's saying that GW hasn't had bad models in the past, but those models (like Nagash) stood out as bad. There were anomalies, so much so that when some sort of abomination came out (Pumbagore, metal Chaos Possessed, etc.) it drew attention to itself. But now they have seemingly become the norm.

It's sad.

 -Loki- wrote:
Until you look closer and see the rabbit teeth, which completely destroys the look of the model.

Ahh! Can't unsee!

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
GK had goofy PA models (and that stupid thing called dreadknight).

One good thing that I can say about the Dreadknight - it is a treasure trove of parts for steampunk modeling.

As itself... yeah, crap. Broken down for parts.... Much better....

The Auld Grump

I dont agree with the OP. The quality is variable and it always has been. Usually more hit than miss.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
GK had goofy PA models (and that stupid thing called dreadknight). Necrons became "tomb kings in space", instead of "terminator meet matrix in 40k" (seriously, why pilots in the machines?).

See, for me, this detail works. Necrons aren't sophisticated cyborgs that integrate themselves into machinery. They're the sad, pathetic remnants of a dead race engaging in the futile mockery of their past lives by pretending they're still alive, adhering to ancient creeds and religions whose significance they can no longer recall. Destroyers are seen as an anomaly because they're the only part of the race that's not held back by nostalgia.

My bigger gripe with GWs models has to do with the way they assemble. I take the entire line of tau vehicles as a degenerate failure, because there are so many ugly things to fix in every kit to get the smooth seamless tau look.

don't even get me started about the thunderbrick or the storm guppy. Two brilliant pieces of designmanship right there. All I ask from this game is to convince me... just... convince me. Those things are not convincing.

As to the necron pilots.... I'm fine with it. Yes, they look silly, more thinking should have been done, using the same kind of pilot as for the ghost arc, but I'm perfectly fine with pilots. Essentially what Agamemnon said.

 poda_t wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
Just been looking through the recent new releases over the past say 8 months and GWs models have become terrible! There clunky and goofy looking, details haven't been picked out properly. They have really let their game slide! They were producing better models 5 years ago then they are now. Then I saw the new HE release and nearly wept... For those who haven't seen it, their terrible. Seems like forge world is the only one producing good models these days...

It seems to me you are in ignorance of reaper and privateer press.

I don't think he is. Privateer Press releases of late suffer from exact same case of cartoony execution than GW models.

It's just that when designers come up with a model which is great, execs go all "Wow!! This is really outrageous! Now you must make the next one even more outrageous, otherwise it doesn't stand out!!" Repeat this over few cycles and you get stuff like Pumbagors.

And then there's simply matter of running out of ideas, and nature of committee work producing boring, unimaginative concepts. "So what we're gonna do for next WoC release? -I dunno. Maybe some you know, big red scary monster? Maybe Khorne affiliated? -Ok, I draw a quick concept sketch on this napkin. What we're going to call it? -Oh...maybe...Slaughter...Fiend? Have we combined those word elements yet? We haven't used 'brute' for a while. So it's Slaughterbrute, that OK with everyone? -Yeah. Lets get some coffee."