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Banner of the World Dragon
+2 Save against Magical Attacks
stubborn for nearby dragons
50 points

LOL, brilliant design, make an item that is a hard counter against another army (demons). Wait for it. . . . Matt Ward rides again. He did the EXACT same thing with Grey Knights in 5th edition 40k, made them a hard counter to demons.

Has this actually been 100% confirmed now or are we still at rumor status?

 epy346 wrote:
Has this actually been 100% confirmed now or are we still at rumor status?

Confirmed from a rare GW preview is what I understand

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/04/huge-high-elves-info-dump.html#more

It's one item. Which means it'll appear in one unit. And expensive enough that it'll have to be the BSB.

It's not quite the same as Grey Knights, which was an entire army as a hard counter to another entire army.

Yes, it's just like where the dragonsbane gem is a hardcounter created for chaos dwarves!

..Wait, no it's not. It's just changed because it's original intention was to fight magical creatures and defend against magic, instead it has become one of the prime examples of a strong, very powerful item taken in combination with a powerful unit.

I have to wait to see that before I believe it. If it's +2 to a "save" or a 2+ ward that's way different. 2+ ward save vs. all magic weapons, spell wounds, magic attacks and stubborn dragons (meh) would be worth an awful lot.

 -Loki- wrote:
It's one item. Which means it'll appear in one unit. And expensive enough that it'll have to be the BSB.

It's not quite the same as Grey Knights, which was an entire army as a hard counter to another entire army.

It´s 50pts, every unit capable of bearing a banner can use it. It should be 55pts so just the BSB can carry it.

Correct, in the Battle Report in the White dwarf a unit of Swordmasters had it without the BSB, however I am less sympathetic to Demon players about it just because I cant say how many times demons have won tournaments around here because of some of the silly shinanigans they got, have not played them in the new book however so maybe that may change. And as mentioned its only one unit so you have the rest of their army to focus on, just try redirecting and or delaying tactics.

 gmaleron wrote:
Correct, in the Battle Report in the White dwarf a unit of Swordmasters had it without the BSB, however I am less sympathetic to Demon players about it just because I cant say how many times demons have won tournaments around here because of some of the silly shinanigans they got, have not played them in the new book however so maybe that may change. And as mentioned its only one unit so you have the rest of their army to focus on, just try redirecting and or delaying tactics.

Still absolutely not fair what they get for 50pts I say. I am not HE hater but I dont like to see another wagon of "Matt Ward/HE" hater munition get fueled again. Deamons in 8th are ok from what I have seen/read/encountered.

JWhex wrote:
Banner of the World Dragon
+2 Save against Magical Attacks
stubborn for nearby dragons
50 points

LOL, brilliant design, make an item that is a hard counter against another army (demons). Wait for it. . . . Matt Ward rides again. He did the EXACT same thing with Grey Knights in 5th edition 40k, made them a hard counter to demons.

Okay compare to the old one

60 pts This unit is immune to magic

I think it is just fine it means my whit lions will have a 5+ ward against magic cool

Did you not ever see the OLD Banner of the World Dragon? Or are you just looking for something to whine about for whining's sake?

 Gorbad wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Correct, in the Battle Report in the White dwarf a unit of Swordmasters had it without the BSB, however I am less sympathetic to Demon players about it just because I cant say how many times demons have won tournaments around here because of some of the silly shinanigans they got, have not played them in the new book however so maybe that may change. And as mentioned its only one unit so you have the rest of their army to focus on, just try redirecting and or delaying tactics.

Still absolutely not fair what they get for 50pts I say. I am not HE hater but I dont like to see another wagon of "Matt Ward/HE" hater munition get fueled again. Deamons in 8th are ok from what I have seen/read/encountered.

So 1 unit being practically immune to the Daemon army is broken?

And BTW it still dies to Purple Sun/Pit/Dwellers with no saves.

50 points is a lot for a fairly situational ward save.

Did you not ever see the OLD Banner of the World Dragon? Or are you just looking for something to whine about for whining's sake?

No one cares about the old banner. Or Daemons in 5th edition. Or the old GW offices were more comfortable. You balance to now. You take your old books and set them on fire and throw the ashes in the trash. There isn't retribution for past misdeeds or you will not have balance ever again once you had imbalance once. Wood Elves next edition would all have HKB on every unit and all them cost 1pt. And wouldn't that be super fun?

 Grey Templar wrote:
So 1 unit being practically immune to the Daemon army is broken?

And BTW it still dies to Purple Sun/Pit/Dwellers with no saves.

50 points is a lot for a fairly situational ward save.

Again, I don't know if this item exists. But 1 unit being practically immune to entire army is indeed broken. If an army had a 2+ ward save vs. Lizardmen it would indeed be broken. Because there's nothing they can do to counter that strategy-wise. Again, I don't know if it exists, if it does, it's 40K mentality of list hammer.

A poison save is situational. Even a fire save, which only goes to handfuls of units (some chaos dwarfs, firebelly, single magic item on a model). Giving any type of ward save to an entire unit is really nice point protection. MR does that, but MR protects against essentially 2 types of spells only. Rune Maw and Blasted Standards are very nice items, and they aren't nearly as good as this.

 Gorbad wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Correct, in the Battle Report in the White dwarf a unit of Swordmasters had it without the BSB, however I am less sympathetic to Demon players about it just because I cant say how many times demons have won tournaments around here because of some of the silly shinanigans they got, have not played them in the new book however so maybe that may change. And as mentioned its only one unit so you have the rest of their army to focus on, just try redirecting and or delaying tactics.

Still absolutely not fair what they get for 50pts I say. I am not HE hater but I dont like to see another wagon of "Matt Ward/HE" hater munition get fueled again. Deamons in 8th are ok from what I have seen/read/encountered.

We can have a silly banner or we can go back to having Teclis and the book of hoath you choose.

And if you want to find something to panic about be scared of this. Bow of Averlorn - 24" S4 Arrows of Isha, Flaming, Volley Fire
Arrows of Isha - magical. -1 AS against wounds caused to forces of destruction if these are the rules for the maiden guard then Glade guard just lost there best archers in the game title and if spammed will ruin any deamon players day (funny how no one has sympathy for deamon players tho) However I am hopping that its only the arrows that the maiden guard will have and that the bow is a magic weapon (however the models have magical bows so yeah..)

I am also assuming you have never seen what llight council list does to deamons. The game has hard counters learn to play.

 Jubear wrote:
We can have a silly banner or we can go back to having Teclis and the book of hoath you choose.

Or we can say HE are broken and thus they are no longer playable. Or anything else we choose to say. Players get to decide what they will play against. There's no dork brigade of GW employees who twist peoples' arms and force people to play broken stuff. Teclis was banned from pretty much every tournament and no amount of "zomg l2p" changed that.

Yeah against some armies its really good against other armies its just a waste of points live with it.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 Jubear wrote:
We can have a silly banner or we can go back to having Teclis and the book of hoath you choose.

Or we can say HE are broken and thus they are no longer playable. Or anything else we choose to say. Players get to decide what they will play against. There's no dork brigade of GW employees who twist peoples' arms and force people to play broken stuff. Teclis was banned from pretty much every tournament and no amount of "zomg l2p" changed that.

How are they broken? We did just loose the rerolls on our super choppy elites (and HEs will be more fun to play against and with as a result) not to mention loosing alot of our more useful magic items (again this is a good thing the book of hoath was broke as gak) And yes you can decide that the army is cheese and refuse to play against it but for me its a sad day when someone refuses a game because he thinks his opponents toy soldiers are better then his. Also the l2p still aplplies if the only way you can combat something in a game is by bringing a bigger stick.

 Jubear wrote:
We did just loose the ..........

Whatever came before is gone. You don't balance 8th army books +- for the same book in 7th. You balance them to other 8th army books. Once that new book is in your hand it becomes like George Orwell's 1984: "There was no 7th edition. We've always been at war with Eastasia."

Yes 100% correct and what we are left with is shaping up to be a balanced book.

High elves will have to go back to ranks and flanks style of play and can no longer rely simply out killing anything they touch.

Why folk care so much about one magic item is beyond me yeah it hurts deamons but one unit is not very hard to isolate/tie up with chaff.

The book is still not the strongest of the 8th books that honor is still held by ogres and even then I would say that they are not so much over powered as simply easier to play and get the most out of.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 Jubear wrote:
We did just loose the ..........

Whatever came before is gone. You don't balance 8th army books +- for the same book in 7th. You balance them to other 8th army books. Once that new book is in your hand it becomes like George Orwell's 1984: "There was no 7th edition. We've always been at war with Eastasia."

I think the point he was trying to make was that while it'd possibly be OP with the old HE book, the new Sword Masters and White Lions aren't the same.

So for all you guys actually defending this stupid banner, let me ask you how a Daemon or WE player is supposed to deal with the following;
40-50 White Lions w/BotWD
Alarielle the Everqueen
Support Mage w/Life or Light
Kitted out fighty Hero

Daemons have 0 answers to that, beyond "hope you roll up Final Trans and can 6-dice it all game without blowing that 1 Wizard!"



The Banner is beyond silly because it simply encourages the worst style of play in Warhammer. (ie: Pts-denial Deathstars)
Remember how everyone was raging about VC's being broken as feth because of their so-called 'Dickenhof Guard' unit? That banner also cost them 125pts to include though, so it made it a BSB-only item.
BotWD doesn't even have that requirement!

Plus, at the very least, it will always be a solid near auto-include since it will;
a) Protect it's unit against ALL Miscasts except Dimensional Cascade and Power Drain.
b) Insta-neuter every single kitted-up fighty character in the game. (while the HE's still get to field their own kitted-up fighty heroes)

I'd hardly call that "useless" for it's cost.

O NOEZ!!!11!!!1!!!1
A banner that gives a normal unit a 5+ (mat) ward save against Daemons! O NO!

@Experiment: Big bunkers are countered with characteristic test spells plus war machines that use templates.

Still, the protection vs miscasts might be a major problem.

Experiment 626 wrote:
So for all you guys actually defending this stupid banner, let me ask you how a Daemon or WE player is supposed to deal with the following;
40-50 White Lions w/BotWD
Alarielle the Everqueen
Support Mage w/Life or Light
Kitted out fighty Hero

Daemons have 0 answers to that, beyond "hope you roll up Final Trans and can 6-dice it all game without blowing that 1 Wizard!"



The Banner is beyond silly because it simply encourages the worst style of play in Warhammer. (ie: Pts-denial Deathstars)
Remember how everyone was raging about VC's being broken as feth because of their so-called 'Dickenhof Guard' unit? That banner also cost them 125pts to include though, so it made it a BSB-only item.
BotWD doesn't even have that requirement!

Plus, at the very least, it will always be a solid near auto-include since it will;
a) Protect it's unit against ALL Miscasts except Dimensional Cascade and Power Drain.
b) Insta-neuter every single kitted-up fighty character in the game. (while the HE's still get to field their own kitted-up fighty heroes)

I'd hardly call that "useless" for it's cost.

Cool a massive points sink that will leave my opponent with bugger all points for anything else. So I am going to out drop him by two to one, deploy on the other side of the board tie his mega unit up with chaff(one well timed double flee should nearly take that unit out of the game) and farm points from his other units. Dont get me wrong getting a big win outta of a list like you mentioned is hard but on the other hand loosing to it is equally hard.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Still, the protection vs miscasts might be a major problem.

Isn't it just one?

 kirsanth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Still, the protection vs miscasts might be a major problem.

Isn't it just one?

Was referring to that banner.

By protection I think he means the damage results, as they are magical in nature. But he'll still take the miscast, and won't save against losing wizard levels or getting sucked into the warp.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Still, the protection vs miscasts might be a major problem.

Isn't it just one?

Was referring to that banner.

Interesting.
I am not sure that it will actually do that though, they have a FAQ stating that MR does not help against miscasts as they are not spells, I would be surprised if the banner does not fall in line with that.

Good point though, had not gotten that yet.

Well the banner reads magic attacks as well, which miscast damage is defined as being magical.

It's interesting that I finally have an army that people are crying about the book before it's even released.