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Can a tzeentch loremaster wizard not just fly forward on his disc, 6-dice dwellers and laugh as 50% of the unit falls down the hole?

 Sigvatr wrote:
@Experiment: Big bunkers are countered with characteristic test spells plus war machines that use templates.

Still, the protection vs miscasts might be a major problem.

The problem though that we Daemon players face is that we now only have access to Pit of Shades or Purple sun, both of which are Initiative tests. (so congrats, you 6-dice a spell, likely explode your wizard and kill 1/6th of the unit...)
All our war machines make magical attacks too, and even our chariots' impact hits are now magical!

Literally, Daemons are down to;
a) 1 copy per army of Final Transmutation because we have 0 Loremasters. (likely on a 500+ pts Lv4 LoC so sure, like you're really going to risk that to miscast explosions!)
b) Tarpit it with Beasts of Nurgle or a GUO who will still eventually die to Daemonic Instability.
c) Use Glean Magic to steal Vaul's Unmaking, (if that spell even still exists!), and use it one the banner. (too bad that "tactic" is so damn random it isn't even funny!)
d) Spam Miasma to de-buff the piss outa the Deathstar unit and then Dwellers them. (asuming the HE player is feeling generous and simply decides dispelling is for whimps...)

If Daemons face a BotWD Deathstar, we have 0 chance of winning the game, and even a draw is going to be a huge uphill battle if 50% or more of the HE army is covered by the Banner.

As mentioned, it's quite literally another "Grey Knights vs Daemons" situation whereby the game is decided just on army lists alone.

Can a tzeentch loremaster wizard not just fly forward on his disc, 6-dice dwellers and laugh as 50% of the unit falls down the hole?

There are no TZ loremasters. Get the new book.

As said, the only DoC casters who are lvl 4, and thus have a reliable chance of getting a doom spell, cost around 500pts. That is the cheapest they come. And that unit has to be a large target monster. Because of all that, people are reluctant to take them.

For the 30th time, I don't know if the item exists. If it does, however, it is massively OP. Any banner that is 2+ ward against [race] is OP, and this one, so the rumors say, is even better than that.

Wait until Warhammer 9th for the inevitable introduction of allies and then get some Chaos Knights to shred whichever unit is bearing the banner.

 Flashman wrote:
Wait until Warhammer 9th for the inevitable introduction of allies and then get some Chaos Knights to shred whichever unit is bearing the banner.

So in other words, "just shelve your entire army for another 1-2 years and then still be forced to include part of another army just to compete."

Note: Not having a go at you, just my bad attempt at internet sarcasim while trying to still choke back my rage at this item.

 Flashman wrote:
Wait until Warhammer 9th for the inevitable introduction of allies and then get some Chaos Knights to shred whichever unit is bearing the banner.

Ensorcelled Weapons are magical. The Knights will be useless.

Keep in mind that we do not have any proof for the banner right now.

If this *is* true, then it's a really, really low blow vs. DoC, Mat Ward did the same thing in 40k and was rightfully hated for it. Goddamn, that guy.

Please, Daemons were already at the bottom of the pile before the GK codex. And it takes a list, that is subpar for a TAC list, to really screw the daemons over.

Perhaps this is his way of showing that he thinks having DoC as a separate army is a bad idea. . . .

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Flashman wrote:
Wait until Warhammer 9th for the inevitable introduction of allies and then get some Chaos Knights to shred whichever unit is bearing the banner.

Ensorcelled Weapons are magical. The Knights will be useless.

Jeez, really? So glad I'm collecting Beastmen. No magical attacks here

 Flashman wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Flashman wrote:
Wait until Warhammer 9th for the inevitable introduction of allies and then get some Chaos Knights to shred whichever unit is bearing the banner.

Ensorcelled Weapons are magical. The Knights will be useless.

Jeez, really? So glad I'm collecting Beastmen. No magical attacks here

Enscorcelled Weapons are now a purchasible option however, and Lances are a point cheaper. The problem is, S6 for one turn makes it into a purely "don't roll rubber-lance syndrome" situation.
Naked Chaos Knights cost too much to really be worthwhile as 4's to-hit/3's to-wound isn't going to cut it vs the likes of White Lions due to them being I5/S6 and thus striking at the same time as the Knights.

Oh. And all HE's now fight in 3 ranks to boot, so those horded White Lions w/BotWD will be fighting in 4 ranks due to Martial Prowess + Horde.

Wait....I'm confused, Is it +2 to saves? Because a 5+ ward doesn't sound anywhere near as horrifying as everyone is making it out, and for a whole unit is about right for 50 points.

There appears to be some confusion weather its a 2+ ward save or +2 to ward saves.

I think it is the combination of this *potential* banner with HE having better attacks against destruction that is the real kicker. Again, I wonder why WoC or DoC didn't get some bonus against the evil Forces of Alignment - except that such a bonus in either direction is clearly broken, unless all armies have it.

HE must either be unbalanced against their own side of the allies spectrum or against the other (or both); they can;t possibly be balanced with all the 8th edition books.

Are people really getting so flusters about 50pts for a 5+ ward save against situation attacks?

"Aww mahn! That banner is stupid! Instead of 20 sowrdmasters, my bloodlettters only killed 14! And it only cost you 50 points?! How is that fair! My army doesn't have that! Oh wait, my army is made of ward save...."

That's what I'm hearing right now. Besides, it sure beats 'unit is immune to magic'. Coz a unit of 50 swordmasters with ASF S5 attacks that was immune to magic was always so much fun...

Quit complaining for complaining's sake! If anyone should be complaining, it should be the wood elves, and only because they STILL have not been re-done. Beastmen have complaining rights too.

Von Chogg

P.S People complaining about other people complaining can also complain. Better cover my own complaining behind.

P.P.S The word complaining is beginning to lose meaning after reading over my post

 Von Chogg wrote:
Are people really getting so flusters about 50pts for a 5+ ward save against situation attacks?

"Aww mahn! That banner is stupid! Instead of 20 sowrdmasters, my bloodlettters only killed 14! And it only cost you 50 points?! How is that fair! My army doesn't have that! Oh wait, my army is made of ward save...."

That's what I'm hearing right now. Besides, it sure beats 'unit is immune to magic'. Coz a unit of 50 swordmasters with ASF S5 attacks that was immune to magic was always so much fun...

Quit complaining for complaining's sake! If anyone should be complaining, it should be the wood elves, and only because they STILL have not been re-done. Beastmen have complaining rights too.

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/attachments/daemons-chaos/28698d1367352765-new-high-elves-just-killed-our-entire-army-image.jpg

Would you like to re-think your silly rant now?
This stupid banner kills the entire Daemons army in any kind of non-comped event.

The old BotWD only made it's unit immune to spells - it did not affect things like magical attacks or character wielding magic weapons OR render it's unit nearly immune to the Miscast table AND required a BSB to take it in the first place!

A Daemon or Wood Elf army (if those even still exist anymore), litterly have no counters to a HE Bannerstar.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There appears to be some confusion weather its a 2+ ward save or +2 to ward saves.

Which is why threads like this are silly.

Wait until the book is released, then do your complainin.

But that's no fun

The leaked book images are showing a 2+ ward save vs magic attacks.

Deathstarring a unit with your characters in it vs daemons is pretty much as hard a counter as grey knights vs demons are in 40k.

What a fun game that would be.

 djones520 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
There appears to be some confusion weather its a 2+ ward save or +2 to ward saves.

Which is why threads like this are silly.

Wait until the book is released, then do your complainin.

Look at the linky like 3 or 4 posts up!
I've linked an image of the confirmed rules from the early app release. It's confirmed a 2+ ward save vs ALL magical attacks. (spells, magical attacks & magic weapons)

That banner makes me miss old Infernal gateway.. whicch was a broken spell that needed to be nerfed. Until some muppet wrote this book (I like the Alan Smithy theory)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Von Chogg wrote:
Are people really getting so flusters about 50pts for a 5+ ward save against situation attacks?

"Aww mahn! That banner is stupid! Instead of 20 sowrdmasters, my bloodlettters only killed 14! And it only cost you 50 points?! How is that fair! My army doesn't have that! Oh wait, my army is made of ward save...."

That's what I'm hearing right now. Besides, it sure beats 'unit is immune to magic'. Coz a unit of 50 swordmasters with ASF S5 attacks that was immune to magic was always so much fun...

Quit complaining for complaining's sake! If anyone should be complaining, it should be the wood elves, and only because they STILL have not been re-done. Beastmen have complaining rights too.

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/attachments/daemons-chaos/28698d1367352765-new-high-elves-just-killed-our-entire-army-image.jpg

Would you like to re-think your silly rant now?
This stupid banner kills the entire Daemons army in any kind of non-comped event.

The old BotWD only made it's unit immune to spells - it did not affect things like magical attacks or character wielding magic weapons OR render it's unit nearly immune to the Miscast table AND required a BSB to take it in the first place!

A Daemon or Wood Elf army (if those even still exist anymore), litterly have no counters to a HE Bannerstar.

Its one unit in an entire army that can carry the banner. Trust me if you cant deal with one unit thru any means other then hitting it with a tougher unit you were not really in the running to win any tournaments anyway.

I'm waiting for the demon counter to this item.

Take a high elf unit, tool it up with all of its characters. It now costs about 75% of the army's cost.

What does the demon player do to counter this?

Hit it with a tougher unit?

No, ignore it/distract it with chaff and kill the other 25% of the army. Avoid it the rest of the game and win.

That's a non-answer and you (should) know it.

Point denial deathstars were always slowed. Your hard counters were mostly things like mega spells (which are probably the most complained about thing in 8th), war machines, redirectors/chaff, and hoping your opponent dies of a heart attack.

DoC has fewer war machines than most armies and they are pretty expensive--and they're all magic. Their ability to get mega spells only comes from large target monsters. I.e., no 150pt lvl 4s to try and boxcar. They can redirect like you said, but then you have to hope your army is faster than their army. No matter what your army WAS built around, it has to be speed and avoidance and quickstrikes. I.e., if you're Nurgle, you lose.

It's a hard counter to an entire army (if it's true as leaked). And close to a hard counter to WE. It's also a hard counter to nearly every character in any army, since they are likely to have magic weapons. So you're looking at one item that is a hard counter to like 1/8th the game's armies and all of its characters.

The question is why wouldn't you ever take that item? Seriously. Unless they have a mutually-exclusive 60 pt item that lets you reroll all your enemy's movement every round or something, it's hard to see why it wouldn't have a place just because. The 10 spearmen you would otherwise afford can't possibly be the force multiplier of this item.

"No, ignore it/distract it with chaff and kill the other 25% of the army. Avoid it the rest of the game and win."

That's great except that the high elf bunker described above doesn't need to be engaged to do its damage. It will likely be throwing the #6 spells out at you with its mages safely tucked away inside of it.

With Teclis they get to pick as many #6 spells as they want really.

So ignore it and hit the other 25% is great, except that if you lose any points you are likely going to draw at best, and more than likely lose because the high elf player only needs to kill 25% of your force to force a draw, and with the mega spells of 8th that's not a difficult thing to do, especially when your mages throwing those spells can't really be targeted now.

I imagine the big caster would be sitting in the 2nd rank as well which means you have to kill a 2+ ward save character in the front before the mage can even be brought out to the front rank to start targeting him.

THat also doesn't count the spell that they have that lets a unit move as if it were ethereal. Blocking and redirecting are likely going to be non-issues with this deathstar as A) engaging isn't even neccessary to win against demons and B) you have spells that let you bypass blockers and get you into a better position should you wish to engage the demon player in combat for whatever reason.

auticus wrote:
"No, ignore it/distract it with chaff and kill the other 25% of the army. Avoid it the rest of the game and win."

That's great except that the high elf bunker described above doesn't need to be engaged to do its damage. It will likely be throwing the #6 spells out at you with its mages safely tucked away inside of it.

With Teclis they get to pick as many #6 spells as they want really.

So ignore it and hit the other 25% is great, except that if you lose any points you are likely going to draw at best, and more than likely lose because the high elf player only needs to kill 25% of your force to force a draw, and with the mega spells of 8th that's not a difficult thing to do, especially when your mages throwing those spells can't really be targeted now.

I imagine the big caster would be sitting in the 2nd rank as well which means you have to kill a 2+ ward save character in the front before the mage can even be brought out to the front rank to start targeting him.

THat also doesn't count the spell that they have that lets a unit move as if it were ethereal. Blocking and redirecting are likely going to be non-issues with this deathstar as A) engaging isn't even neccessary to win against demons and B) you have spells that let you bypass blockers and get you into a better position should you wish to engage the demon player in combat for whatever reason.

So your opponent spend well over a 1000 points on a glorified bunker for his mages and you still cant win? Alot of people complaining seem to be very very unskilled or inexperienced players. Hard counters have always existed in this game the old 7th HE book could run a light council list and put the hurt on deamons. Wood elf players have always had a hard time vs brets etc etc. You just simply adjust your mind set in those matchups to focus on staying away from the deathstar and preserving points while farming what you can and play for a minor win instead of a massacre.

Oh gak just read the etheral spell rules again I figured it was only for the caster and not a whole unit buff....And yeah that spell is fething broken the banner is good but that spell is a game changer =(

JWhex wrote:
Banner of the World Dragon
+2 Save against Magical Attacks
stubborn for nearby dragons
50 points

LOL, brilliant design, make an item that is a hard counter against another army (demons). Wait for it. . . . Matt Ward rides again. He did the EXACT same thing with Grey Knights in 5th edition 40k, made them a hard counter to demons.

It's also nearly immune to magic and most skaven shooting. I don't see the entire problem. You can still hit them with something non-magical and in the case of daemons just ignore parts of the army. You can always hit them in a flank right? As they said one unit doesn't equal a whole army and chances are it's elite and would still get owned by some characteristic tests. Also buffs and hexes are still able to work in this. Really the thing that does the worst against this would be magic missiles and most think that's the crappiest type of spell anyway.

It's not like they take teclis, this banner and some OP item and just own everything right? I mean hopefully most of those things would cost a lot and i'm sure teclis would be an expensive lord choice. There isn't much worse for balance than teclis was. Imagine most of the enemy's magic going off and basically having a power scroll every turn (all doubles are irresistible and a miscast) and i think he ignores quite a few of them too. Toughness 7 elves in a building is no joke man. You'd be surprised at the stupidity 'lore of life' is capable of as well as a couple other BRB lores.

I find it funny that players who used to run one of the most OP armies are complaining about the new HE's before the book is even released. I think you guys are overreacting, as mentioned there are multiple ways to counter a big deathstar unit, just because we now have one that is effective vs your army does not make our army op.

DoC have sucked since 8th BRB came out except for 2 units. And were further nerfed with 8th army book. Bloodletters (very nerfed) and Loremaster TZ (completely removed). Maybe a lesser extent Flamers (mega nerfed). DoC was essentially those units--which were indeed very good.

Again, you don't balance to some version that came before. Someone who picks up the books today doesn't care about what happened 12 years ago, they want a balanced game.

As for the counters to deathstars, there are multiple. But most require you to be able to hurt your opponent. Chosen stars were really ugly and they had half the ward save of this. Which isn't a phrase you hear a lot.