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Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

IIRC, Alarielle's Shieldstone of Isha is simply a 5+ ward vs all non-magical attacks. I've seen nothing yet, (rumors or confirmations), saying it's only of use outside of combat - just blanket 5++ vs mundane attacks...
That means she only needs to cast 2 High Magic spells to give her unit a 3++, since the High Magic lore attribute stacks existing ward saves upto a max of 3++.

Okay Just curious


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

- Only 5 armies in the game have access to Dwellers... So everyone else uses what now?
WoC, DoC, DE's have access to Final Trans, while Skaven have Dreaded 13th

(which is far better than any other killy spell IMHO. Also Plague wrecks Elves)

Experiment 626 wrote:
Ogres can potentially outfight it with a Gutstar, while a VC Blender Lord without a magic weapon could potentially tip the balance. (depends entirely on the Grave Guard not whiffing)

Yeah these are both quite true and not even a contest

Experiment 626 wrote:
So Dwarfs, O&G's, TK's do what now?! (hint: none of them reliably outfight WL's without the help of their fighty characters packing their magical weapons)

Ummm have you heard of a skeleton tarpit it will keep the lions stuck for a long time. Savage Orks can hold there own against them. Dwarves will be fine so long as you have enough. WL are extremely killy but they only have 1 A ohh and without re-rolls they only hit 66% of the time on average so a bus can really be a problem for them.

Experiment 626 wrote:
- You reliably need to cast 2-3 hexes to 'de-buff into uselessness the unit'. What are the High Elves doing, forgetting they have dispel dice/dispel scroll?
Again, how are DAEMONS supposed to get 2-3 hexes through when we might not even have a Lv4 of our own?! A bunch of over-costed Lv2's aren't getting jack through HE magic defenses.

- Most rank-and-file is either highly inferior to or roughly on-par with High Elf elites, especially now that Martial Prowess gives them +1 additional rank meaning the HE's can frontage-deny like champs.

I think you're seriously underestimating what the banner will do when coupled alongside all the other main buffs the High Elves have recieved...
And again, how is pretty much excluding Daemons from ever competing a good thing again?

I think you are being shrill and angry when in 95% of games the banner is meaningless. I used it in my 21 white lions this weekend. guess what it made no difference. Most High Elves players will tell you yes this is useful and yes we will use it however most of us aren't taking Allarielle ( Her banner is for life not high magic s o any list intending to take advantage of her ward is going to use High Spell, and as mentioned she is minus 1d3 to cast if demons are within 12".) I will take my Level 4 Archmage over that any time.

I have now played against the mat ward banner. I was using my mounted tzeentch warriors list. My giant block of knights killed maybe one or two white lions a turn. If I hadn't gotten my Chimera in their flank I'd probably still be there. And this is against someone who isn't a jerk! This banner is just plain silly in the wrong hands. Unfortunately, all the TFGs I know play he.

Seriously, the number of attacks necessary to beat a death Star would be outrageous. So much for playing daemons...

Honestly, the unit that scares me the most with this banner is the dragon princes. Nine inch movement with great armor and equally as good ward saves? They can choose their battles and not much will kill them.

 spyguyyoda wrote:
I have now played against the mat ward banner. I was using my mounted tzeentch warriors list. My giant block of knights killed maybe one or two white lions a turn. If I hadn't gotten my Chimera in their flank I'd probably still be there. And this is against someone who isn't a jerk! This banner is just plain silly in the wrong hands. Unfortunately, all the TFGs I know play he.

Seriously, the number of attacks necessary to beat a death Star would be outrageous. So much for playing daemons...

Honestly, the unit that scares me the most with this banner is the dragon princes. Nine inch movement with great armor and equally as good ward saves? They can choose their battles and not much will kill them.

Apart from the normal mundane heavy cav killers, you mean...

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sure, it's not Ward alone who writes the codex / army book.

But it's kinda weird that it's always Mat Ward writing trash codices / army books or at least ones with terrible internal balance.

I'm sorry? What about Phil "Take this OBVIOUSLY OP UNIT" kelly? The Kelly who wrote 4th edition Eldar Skimmerspam? The guy whose internal balance problems produces half a usable dex, half useless, and with one or two MUST TAKE UNITS like Space Wolves?

Or Robin Cruddances. "This army must be underpowered!" Fad, who sharply shifts any balance towards new units, or just has horrible balance overall?

Course at this rate I only really trust Vetocks work to be balanced in some measure, sure he's got one or two bad units once in a while but overall his work is very, very solid.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sure, it's not Ward alone who writes the codex / army book.

But it's kinda weird that it's always Mat Ward writing trash codices / army books or at least ones with terrible internal balance.

I'm sorry? What about Phil "Take this OBVIOUSLY OP UNIT" kelly? The Kelly who wrote 4th edition Eldar Skimmerspam? The guy whose internal balance problems produces half a usable dex, half useless, and with one or two MUST TAKE UNITS like Space Wolves?

Or Robin Cruddances. "This army must be underpowered!" Fad, who sharply shifts any balance towards new units, or just has horrible balance overall?

Course at this rate I only really trust Vetocks work to be balanced in some measure, sure he's got one or two bad units once in a while but overall his work is very, very solid.

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!
If you're still butt-hurt over that book, blame Jervis and co. because they went with a very last minute shift in the overall design of the entire codex and then did silly things with it!

And every single author has had 1 bad book. Space Wolves were Kelly's feth-up.
But he's still got Orks, Dark Eldar and the new Chaos books to his name which are all fairly well balanced books, both internally and externally. (and you can never have true 100% balance - there will always be a terd unit or two and one or two choices that are alightly above everything else, no matter who the author is...)
And in Fantasy he's got VC's which alongside Empire are both the outright best balanced books of 8th. (Orcs & Gobbos lose out because their magic items are pretty damn poop...)

Ward on the other hand?
Yeah, he's got Vanilla Marines which are great. Everything else was either a notch above, or else a complete and utter terd right from day one because he didn't give a flying monkey fart for the project...

 rapterz wrote:
I don't think HE have bad internal balance. The external balance is debatable, but that banner is pretty much auto-include. Was looking at Ulthuan and one of their major tactica threads advocates using it with, you guessed it, white lions.

The same thread thad advocates pretty much anything, since it's a thread about the new stuff? Trying to paint all High Elf players as cheesemongers without mentioning that crucial detail is a bit dishonest (if that wasn't your intention I apologise, but that's how it read to me).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 rapterz wrote:
I don't think HE have bad internal balance. The external balance is debatable, but that banner is pretty much auto-include. Was looking at Ulthuan and one of their major tactica threads advocates using it with, you guessed it, white lions.

The same thread thad advocates pretty much anything, since it's a thread about the new stuff? Trying to paint all High Elf players as cheesemongers without mentioning that crucial detail is a bit dishonest (if that wasn't your intention I apologise, but that's how it read to me).

Rereading what I wrote, I understand where you're coming from. Your right over all, but my point was to illustrate that the banner is already being included in all theoryhammer that is processed. Still, It doesn't deter me from playing fantasy, but I still feel bad for any new players that wanna pick daemons up.

Can always allow the Tamurkhan great host rules. That lets demons take warriors and beastmen in their army.

 captain collius wrote:
Most High Elves players will tell you yes this is useful and yes we will use it however most of us aren't taking Allarielle ( Her banner is for life not high magic s o any list intending to take advantage of her ward is going to use High Spell, and as mentioned she is minus 1d3 to cast if demons are within 12".) I will take my Level 4 Archmage over that any time.

-D3 to cast! OMG that's uber! But wait a sec, she does D6 S4 hits to every single daemon unit in range without her doing anything. I would gladly make that trade in any army in existence. -D3 to cast if any empire within 12" but do D6 S4 hits to every empire unit within 12". It's a free, undispellable attack every round. And for those who keep saying(!) chaff and redirect, if it's just a couple models, they will die just getting in range.

Can always allow the Tamurkhan great host rules. That lets demons take warriors and beastmen in their army.

Screw that, just use Tamurkhan and his toad dragon.

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!

You've said this before, but every time I've asked for a source, you've ignored me. So can you please provide a source for this claim.

 sebster wrote:

I mean, did you think Ward writes a book, gives half the units total immunity to everything and sits back telling everyone how clever he is because his new book is now the biggest selling book, while the GW suits all sit their spinning on their swivel chairs doing coke by the truckload?

Thats a pretty clear representation of exactly what i think happens. Then I imagine that eventually the poor bastard at GW that still gives a damn will go back and tearfully try to save his hobby and beg the white powder noised execs to let him/her write a FAQ that saves the game for another edition.

I see a FAQ coming up in the near future to hopefully give DoC some change against a BotWD star. Although I don't know what that FAQ would be.

Also two things
1) It doesn't have by any means be a star with the BotWD to destroy a demon army. Just give the banner to a small group and march it right up the middle tarpitting whatever seems the most useful while the rest of the army mops up.

2) To people saying that they will speed bump the unit with BotWD to death... its a very good thing that HE don't have incrediable shooting armies and fantastic chaff units that excel at taking out other chaff units (Eagles, reavers) or this might be very difficult. Yep real good thing.

Btw - I'm not a DoC player whining. I'm a high elf player saying the army is very strong as it is without the BotWD.

 Sasori wrote:

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!

You've said this before, but every time I've asked for a source, you've ignored me. So can you please provide a source for this claim.

He told me himself at the 2006 Toronto Games Day.
And he was still rather sore and hurt about it and this was about 3 months after he came back from his sabbatical.

That design style of course died after the massive community outrage over how bland and watered down Chaos Marines became.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!

You've said this before, but every time I've asked for a source, you've ignored me. So can you please provide a source for this claim.

He told me himself at the 2006 Toronto Games Day.
And he was still rather sore and hurt about it and this was about 3 months after he came back from his sabbatical.

That design style of course died after the massive community outrage over how bland and watered down Chaos Marines became.

Yeah, so you don't really have any verifiable source, except yourself. Yeah, not good enough.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!

You've said this before, but every time I've asked for a source, you've ignored me. So can you please provide a source for this claim.

He told me himself at the 2006 Toronto Games Day.
And he was still rather sore and hurt about it and this was about 3 months after he came back from his sabbatical.

That design style of course died after the massive community outrage over how bland and watered down Chaos Marines became.

So of course you actually have no proof behind it...

I honestly should've seen that one coming.

So yeah, until proof, not hearsay is given, he wrote a gamebreaking book.

I'm doing a demon battle against high elves with this banner this weekend. He is using dragon princes with it, not a bunker of FTW.

We'll see how it goes.

 Sasori wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!

You've said this before, but every time I've asked for a source, you've ignored me. So can you please provide a source for this claim.

He told me himself at the 2006 Toronto Games Day.
And he was still rather sore and hurt about it and this was about 3 months after he came back from his sabbatical.

That design style of course died after the massive community outrage over how bland and watered down Chaos Marines became.

Yeah, so you don't really have any verifiable source, except yourself. Yeah, not good enough.

Its good enough for me because you dont see 626 posting a lot of rumours or name dropping on other topics. You are basically calling 626 a liar which is extremely rude and uncalled for.

I also dont see how 626 gains any advantage for defending a developer on a single book when she knows that by doing so she will be exposing herself to nerdragers.

JWhex wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!

You've said this before, but every time I've asked for a source, you've ignored me. So can you please provide a source for this claim.

He told me himself at the 2006 Toronto Games Day.
And he was still rather sore and hurt about it and this was about 3 months after he came back from his sabbatical.

That design style of course died after the massive community outrage over how bland and watered down Chaos Marines became.

Yeah, so you don't really have any verifiable source, except yourself. Yeah, not good enough.

Its good enough for me because you dont see 626 posting a lot of rumours or name dropping on other topics. You are basically calling 626 a liar which is extremely rude and uncalled for.

I also dont see how 626 gains any advantage for defending a developer on a single book when she knows that by doing so she will be exposing herself to nerdragers.

+1

JWhex wrote:


Its good enough for me because you dont see 626 posting a lot of rumours or name dropping on other topics. You are basically calling 626 a liar which is extremely rude and uncalled for.

Nowhere does he call him a liar. Read posts you comment on.

626 is making claims based on information that cannot be verified. The information therefore is unreliable. I could claim that Mat Ward told me that he purposefully makes army books that are "perceived as too strong" in order to "challenge and change" the "currently dominating meta". He told it to me personally after the Q&A at GD 2007.

See, I can do it too. Unreliable information isn't worth a lot when used in discussions...everyone can make such claims, be it in good or bad intention.

While your intentions are valid, the statement comes off as "you are lying", or can be perceived as such.

To make it not suggest that you can simply say "personal anecdotes cannot be taken for concrete information"

 Sigvatr wrote:

JWhex wrote:


Its good enough for me because you dont see 626 posting a lot of rumours or name dropping on other topics. You are basically calling 626 a liar which is extremely rude and uncalled for.

Nowhere does he call him a liar. Read posts you comment on.

626 is making claims based on information that cannot be verified. The information therefore is unreliable. I could claim that Mat Ward told me that he purposefully makes army books that are "perceived as too strong" in order to "challenge and change" the "currently dominating meta". He told it to me personally after the Q&A at GD 2007.

See, I can do it too. Unreliable information isn't worth a lot when used in discussions...everyone can make such claims, be it in good or bad intention.

This is exactly it.

 Sigvatr wrote:

JWhex wrote:


Its good enough for me because you dont see 626 posting a lot of rumours or name dropping on other topics. You are basically calling 626 a liar which is extremely rude and uncalled for.

Nowhere does he call him a liar. Read posts you comment on.

626 is making claims based on information that cannot be verified. The information therefore is unreliable. I could claim that Mat Ward told me that he purposefully makes army books that are "perceived as too strong" in order to "challenge and change" the "currently dominating meta". He told it to me personally after the Q&A at GD 2007.

See, I can do it too. Unreliable information isn't worth a lot when used in discussions...everyone can make such claims, be it in good or bad intention.

+1

Not that it really matters, if only one knows it, it's an unverified source.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

JWhex wrote:


Its good enough for me because you dont see 626 posting a lot of rumours or name dropping on other topics. You are basically calling 626 a liar which is extremely rude and uncalled for.

Nowhere does he call him a liar. Read posts you comment on.

626 is making claims based on information that cannot be verified. The information therefore is unreliable. I could claim that Mat Ward told me that he purposefully makes army books that are "perceived as too strong" in order to "challenge and change" the "currently dominating meta". He told it to me personally after the Q&A at GD 2007.

See, I can do it too. Unreliable information isn't worth a lot when used in discussions...everyone can make such claims, be it in good or bad intention.

+1

Not that it really matters, if only one knows it, it's an unverified source.

I honestly don't care if you think I'm making it up or not.
Phil's a friend and the odd time he does get over to this area if, he's got time we'll hang out a bit. Hell, he'll still rub it in to me how when he was on that sabbatical, he unknowingly ended up seeing my fav band in concert while I can't ever go to any of their shows! (too much bass & loud noise doesn't go so well when you've suffered repeated serious head trauma...)
Of course, I'll just shoot back about how I got to hang out with a couple of the more minor LotR actors for three days during a LotR convention!

But this is what he told me during that event, he was still pretty upset about it and I didn't push him at all to explain why the design shift occurred because I was more interested in hanging out, sharing some beers & having fun explaining why play-off hockey is almost a religion along with a couple of other friends who were volunteering for Games Day.

I can't say I am really that worried about the BOTWD.

As an ogre player, if I can't kill a bunch of t3, 5+ save elves without using magic attacks then I have a problem.

Even if the banner is taken with dragon princes, t3 knights are not a problem for ogres generally.

Well this does sound pretty broken against Daemons.

50 points for almost total immunity to all magical attacks which don't disallow ward saves is way too cheap.

Luckily my Dark Elves don't rely on magical attacks and with the High Elf ASF no longer overriding normal rules for great weapons (and so striking at initiative without re-rolls), my Corsairs and Witch Elves would have a field day. Finally Eternal Hatred can be more useful than the High Elf ASF.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Luckily my Dark Elves don't rely on magical attacks and with the High Elf ASF no longer overriding normal rules for great weapons

Doesn't Mindrazor make the attacks magical?

 Sigvatr wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Luckily my Dark Elves don't rely on magical attacks and with the High Elf ASF no longer overriding normal rules for great weapons

Doesn't Mindrazor make the attacks magical?

No, I don't believe so. Makes you use LD instead of S, no mention of making the attacks magical. There's another spell which says that it makes the attacks magical (been mentioned somewhere in this thread I believe) so I think it's something which has to be specifically stated.

Fluff-wise Mindrazor doesn't do anything to the weapons, just makes the users thought process so fast that they can pinpoint weak points on the enemy but fluff and rules don't always match up.

Even without Mindrazor that bunker unit could be ground down with Dark Elves. Witch Elves with Cauldron Support for extra attacks would strike first and with poison could force lots of saves whilst being Stubborn from being near the Cauldron (which is often a BSB)

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Luckily my Dark Elves don't rely on magical attacks and with the High Elf ASF no longer overriding normal rules for great weapons

Doesn't Mindrazor make the attacks magical?

No, I don't believe so. Makes you use LD instead of S, no mention of making the attacks magical. There's another spell which says that it makes the attacks magical (been mentioned somewhere in this thread I believe) so I think it's something which has to be specifically stated.

Fluff-wise Mindrazor doesn't do anything to the weapons, just makes the users thought process so fast that they can pinpoint weak points on the enemy but fluff and rules don't always match up.

Even without Mindrazor that bunker unit could be ground down with Dark Elves. Witch Elves with Cauldron Support for extra attacks would strike first and with poison could force lots of saves whilst being Stubborn from being near the Cauldron (which is often a BSB)

IIRC, only Enchanted Blades of Abian from Metal and Flaming Swords of Rhuin from Fire specifically grant the unit magic attacks.



And yes, Daemons are truly f***ed against the Skill Banner...

Consider something like;
Lv4 w/Book + Shadow or Life magic
Lv2 w/Dispel Scrol + High Magic
BSB
3x 6 Reavers
9-15 Silverhelms
21-30 White Lions w/Skill Banner
21-30 Phoenix Guard
2x Bolt Throwers
2x Frosthearts

So realistically, the Daemon player's only 'easy' pts to obtain in such a list would be the Reavers and Bolt Throwers...
Those characters will certainly be hiding behind the banner, while the PG are already a solid pts denial unit, made even more so by the use of either Shadow or Life magic and can be granted a 3++ should the be targeted by a single High Magic spell.
And those Frosthearts running alongside the Healms + PG add even more nerfs to any Daemonic units they hit...


Banner of the World Ending Dragon is thus far, the single stupidest and most borked item we've yet seen in 8th.

I've played my demons vs the skill banner and yes I was stomped pretty hard.

Have taken on the white lion point-denial-of-ultimate-skill-and-power list (white lions bunkered with skill banner, everqueen, bsb, a level 2 floating around somewhere, some spearmen and archers for core and a pair of bolt throwers) and then took on the dragon prince version of the skill banner.

Both against demons can die in a fire

auticus wrote:
I've played my demons vs the skill banner and yes I was stomped pretty hard.

Have taken on the white lion point-denial-of-ultimate-skill-and-power list (white lions bunkered with skill banner, everqueen, bsb, a level 2 floating around somewhere, some spearmen and archers for core and a pair of bolt throwers) and then took on the dragon prince version of the skill banner.

Both against demons can die in a fire

So according to what seems like the vast majority of High Elf players, I guess it's still our fault and we Daemons players just need to l2p...

Because 50pts to neuter our already nerfed new army book is "well balanced" and nothing to get all bent out of shape over!

auticus wrote:
I've played my demons vs the skill banner and yes I was stomped pretty hard.

Have taken on the white lion point-denial-of-ultimate-skill-and-power list (white lions bunkered with skill banner, everqueen, bsb, a level 2 floating around somewhere, some spearmen and archers for core and a pair of bolt throwers) and then took on the dragon prince version of the skill banner.

Both against demons can die in a fire

Yeah both is very harsh, I wouldnt bother playing that list a second time.

The only thing that the HE book has going for it, is I hope a very short life span. There are rumours from very reliable people that 9th edition is going to reset all the army books and invalidate the 8th edition army books in one fell sweep like 6th edition did to 5th edition.

It is just a rumour of course but HAstings is pretty accurate overall so I wouldnt bet against it.

Maybe we will get lucky and this will get rid of the crap demon book and the HE book at one time.