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 Jubear wrote:

JWhex wrote:

 Jubear wrote:

JWhex wrote:
It is rather sad and pathetic that so many people do not understand how the banner being discussed is bad for the game. The responses from people gleeful that demon players are "getting their just dessert" after the last book are especially childish. When an item, unit or combination of them is a hard counter for an army it is bad for all whfb because it means that people attracted to the nerfed army will just say screw it and we probably lost them as an opponent.

I own and play 8 different armies and I have nothing but contempt for people posting in this thread who assume that people criticizing the banner are exclusive demon players just crying about some nonconsequential item that can be easily played around.

If you think that the banner as we understand it (2+ ward save) against magic attacks can be easily countered by demons you do not have an understanding of tactics or the demon army book. Feed it chaff, avoid it, flank charge it blah, blah, blah. Honestly, some of you people completely fail at warhammer.

I have never in more than two decades put together a list tailored against a specific army, ever. Maybe some of you posters that are suggesting specific (and wholly inadequate) builds to counter the HE and their crutches play in this manner but around here it is called sissyhammer and no one does it.

One person called the banner and its deathstar an expensive mage bunker. Well I suppose any demon player could beat any HE opponent that just used the banner for that purpose. A take all comers list for demons does have some chaff but not a large amount. I especially mock the person's tactic of a flank charge as an answer. Apparently they do not know about combat reforms after the first round of combat.

A smart player with this banner in their army, and it is definitely worth taking in an all commers list, should be able to crush a demon army, every time, with little work. Chaff will only go so far in a six turn game and with the new rules the HE unit will over run due to obliteration or instability tests any chaff. Some people who are claiming that you can "just avoid" this banner must have opponents that are not very smart. Why do you think you can avoid this unit for most of the game. Demon armies are not that large. If the HE player deploys his other units near the unit with the banner then how do you suppose the demon player will fight anything without being charged by the banner unit.

How many people posting here have never played whfb?

In a tournament environment demons already have serious disadvantages that make them a very inconsistent army to play. They also have ridiculous rules in regard to the general and bsb that no other army has to put up with.

In case a lot of you have not noticed, whfb is not the most popular game around by a very wide margin. The game now more than ever needs good rules and balanced army books that put all of the factions on an even footing. Tournaments are popular and even people that may not be focused on tournaments more often than not want to buy into armies that can be competitive in tournaments. This is quite obvious from the many threads people start when wanting advice about armies.

WHFB doesnt need the kind of crap that GW has been putting out lately, Banner of the World Dragon, generally crap design Demon book and unbreakable near indestructible demon princes. If you cant understand why this stuff is just bad for the game in general, then maybe you should send Matt Ward a Valentine's Day card.

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

Actually you are the one that needs the advice because you are apparently not up to speed with the core rules. You can no longer "abuse" the crumble rule with chaff. Please read the FAQ before offering out your alleged wisdom about rules. Moreover, if you knew the first thing about the demon list you would know that a good all comers list does not have a "metric ton of chaff". You seem to be confusing the demon army with some other armies.

You assume the banner will be taken on an infantry block. You assume that it will be used on a mage bunker, indeed you make a lot of GAK assumptions. Now I know you really do not want me to PM you for advice but I will at least be more honest. Do not PM me for advice until you improve your knowledge of the core rules and armies. You see you just are not at an advanced enough stage in playing warhammer for me to help you. This is not to say that I dont enjoy helping beginners, I just wont waste time on people that dont know GAK but are under the impression they have some sage advice to offer.

I am totally aware of the faq that is why the tactic works you park a unit in front of a block, said block has to charge or backpedal (1" rule) if he charges he will kill the chaff 99% of the time and then he cannot overun thus stoping the unit making any forward progress. And why does your list not use chaff? Its chaff that wins game by controlling board space allowing you to get the match ups you want, that seems like something you would want to include to cover all your bases.

Your just upset that there is one army in the game that has a counter to a your obvious massive block playstyle "push it all forward hammer" is for beginners.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Jubear wrote:

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

High Elf player casts Walk Through Worlds on their SkillBannerstar...
Yep, that "metric gak ton of chaff" that Daemons don't even have access to works reaaaaally well now.

Next thing you'll be telling us to "just spam Dwellers and be done with it."



For everyone else here who actually understand the problem:
Has anyone else seen the rumored new rules for Alarielle the Everqueen?! Heroic Killing Blow vs Forces of Disorder AND an auto D6/S4 magic missle bound against every Daemons ofChaos unit within 12"?!
On top of her blanket 5++ basic ward save to her entire unit...

Now who else is starting to see the 'uberstar of doom like I am?! (Everqueen + 40 WL's + support characters = 3++ vs mundane/2++ vs magic...)

Did they take single jugga units and fiends, nurglings etc out of the book? How about MSU core regiments?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

phoenixrisin wrote:
Jubear, please...just...stop.

Nope whinging deamon players must be destroyed (in game)

You might take a look into the new DoC book before giving out hints? The rest is just well, ignored.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 RiTides wrote:


Why not let it get put on the table and see if you can figure out how to counter it before freaking out .

RT, maybe you haven't heard: You're on the internet.

Oh right, thanks for the reminder. Carry on!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except spells that allow for MR saves tend to not do much damage anyway. Magic Resistance is the lamest special rule to have in 8th edition.

Yep, that's my point

MR should *really* work on stuff like Dwellers. That'd be awesome. But then again, we'd see uncounterable giant death stars.

So I guess people haven't yet considered how you can use the new Skill Banner to easily build a White Lion unit to have 3+(shooting)/3++(mundane)/2++(magic) saves yet?!
Because that was the very first thing that came to my mind...

Shouldn't THAT monstrosity worry everyone equally!?!

Experiment 626 wrote:
So I guess people haven't yet considered how you can use the new Skill Banner to easily build a White Lion unit to have 3+(shooting)/3++(mundane)/2++(magic) saves yet?!
Because that was the very first thing that came to my mind...

Shouldn't THAT monstrosity worry everyone equally!?!

Dwellers etc.

Not fully viable of course, as besides Dwellers, most instant death spells use I...which HE test on 5s.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
So I guess people haven't yet considered how you can use the new Skill Banner to easily build a White Lion unit to have 3+(shooting)/3++(mundane)/2++(magic) saves yet?!
Because that was the very first thing that came to my mind...

Shouldn't THAT monstrosity worry everyone equally!?!

Dwellers etc.

Not fully viable of course, as besides Dwellers, most instant death spells use I...which HE test on 5s.

So other High Elves, Bretonnians, Wood Elves, Empire & Lizardmen can play the "spam Dwellers FTW!" game then?
What about everyone else though? And it's not like you really ever see many Brets or WE's appear at tournament either, so you can pretty much scratch them off the list if you're looking at things from a mainly competitive standpoint...

Sure, Skavenslave buses can hold it in place for a few turns, but VC's and their "drown them in Zombies!" tactic likely won't be able to res enough against the High Elf magic defenses...
Not to mention delaying/re-directing is a pain since if the High Elf player is aiming for a list like this, you can bet they'll ensure they have access to Walk Between Worlds to ignore all those blockers/re-directors/chaff.

So I guess this can boil Fantasy down to the "game of Dwellers/Final Trans vs Skill Banner - who can explode who first?!?"
Looks like utter BS stupidity and mindnumbing bordem to me.

Hey, I'm on your boat! My Goblins do not have access to those spells either.

And about the magic...yes, welcome to 8th.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Hey, I'm on your boat! My Goblins do not have access to those spells either.

And about the magic...yes, welcome to 8th.

How about we just call it "Wardhammer(TM)"?

Bit OT but why so much "hate" for MR? MR is nice to have and there are a couple spells where I rather have MR than not.

MR is very expensive to buy most of the time and barely does something for you - I can count the times I received wounds from spells in my recent games with one hand. Most of the time, those spells just aren't very good and you sacrifice dispel dice you could use for Dwellers / Pit / etc. (which you don't get any save against thus no MR) or for unit buffs that turn out to be more effective.

Most of the time, I see magic missiles being used to kill small cavalry units, Great Eagles and stuff and those can't get MR. Most of the time.

Sure, MR is nice to have, but most of the time, you could take sth. else that's more effective in the long run.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't pay 30 points for MR(5), Magic Resistance sucks.

But would you pay 50 for 2+ ward vs. all magic weapons for an entire unit? I.e., hero/lord immunity. I think that alone is a pretty good deal. You put your killy heroes and/or spelly heroes in there and know you won't ever be challenged. Then just go on a murderous rampage. The enemy can't engage you with any of his hero units.

Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

Probably from the shield of Saphery Lore Attribute + whatsherface everqueen's Ward Save she confers to the unit.

And, even though that unit is scary, I imagine a unit such as that will cost a massive portion of the HE Player's army. And we all know what that means... It's not that bad: if you haven't managed to deal with deathstars by now, you're in trouble.

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

IIRC, Alarielle's Shieldstone of Isha is simply a 5+ ward vs all non-magical attacks. I've seen nothing yet, (rumors or confirmations), saying it's only of use outside of combat - just blanket 5++ vs mundane attacks...
That means she only needs to cast 2 High Magic spells to give her unit a 3++, since the High Magic lore attribute stacks existing ward saves upto a max of 3++.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

IIRC, Alarielle's Shieldstone of Isha is simply a 5+ ward vs all non-magical attacks. I've seen nothing yet, (rumors or confirmations), saying it's only of use outside of combat - just blanket 5++ vs mundane attacks...
That means she ONLY needs to cast 2 High Magic spells to give her unit a 3++, since the High Magic lore attribute stacks existing ward saves upto a max of 3++.

Bearing in mind the facts that the new High Magic lore is supposed to be pretty nasty and also the fact that your opponent will know that casting said spells will add to your ward save, casting two a turn may be quite a challenge.

 Sigvatr wrote:
MR is very expensive to buy most of the time and barely does something for you - I can count the times I received wounds from spells in my recent games with one hand. Most of the time, those spells just aren't very good and you sacrifice dispel dice you could use for Dwellers / Pit / etc. (which you don't get any save against thus no MR) or for unit buffs that turn out to be more effective.

Most of the time, I see magic missiles being used to kill small cavalry units, Great Eagles and stuff and those can't get MR. Most of the time.

Sure, MR is nice to have, but most of the time, you could take sth. else that's more effective in the long run.

Ok, we are talking about buying MR? I never bought MR and it´s well, 15years Warhammer now? I was thinking about MR armies/models have by default. I dont want to miss my MR on my Khorne stuff and I cant count on one hand how many Orcs I lost to magic missiles. So I wish I would have cheap MR on my boyz from time to time.

 The Shadow wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

IIRC, Alarielle's Shieldstone of Isha is simply a 5+ ward vs all non-magical attacks. I've seen nothing yet, (rumors or confirmations), saying it's only of use outside of combat - just blanket 5++ vs mundane attacks...
That means she ONLY needs to cast 2 High Magic spells to give her unit a 3++, since the High Magic lore attribute stacks existing ward saves upto a max of 3++.

Bearing in mind the facts that the new High Magic lore is supposed to be pretty nasty and also the fact that your opponent will know that casting said spells will add to your ward save, casting two a turn may be quite a challenge.

Alarielle is +5 to-cast. It's not going to be that hard for her, (or any Lv4 High Mage), to 2D6 cast their spells, ourside of the 19+ spell of 'uber death.

And again, for some armies, we're forced to spend 500+pts to even get a Lv4 wizard of our own...

I really think that alot of your guys are overreacting to this. I am not denying it is good, however I do feel that the "end of the world" mentality from some of you is a little over the top. Like most new books its not surprising that a good item like this will be and is considered OP. However as more and more people play against and with the book I am sure plenty of tactics, strategies and counters will come about, you guys need to play with it/against it before you scream "OP" is all I am suggesting.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

IIRC, Alarielle's Shieldstone of Isha is simply a 5+ ward vs all non-magical attacks. I've seen nothing yet, (rumors or confirmations), saying it's only of use outside of combat - just blanket 5++ vs mundane attacks...
That means she ONLY needs to cast 2 High Magic spells to give her unit a 3++, since the High Magic lore attribute stacks existing ward saves upto a max of 3++.

Bearing in mind the facts that the new High Magic lore is supposed to be pretty nasty and also the fact that your opponent will know that casting said spells will add to your ward save, casting two a turn may be quite a challenge.

Alarielle is +5 to-cast. It's not going to be that hard for her, (or any Lv4 High Mage), to 2D6 cast their spells, ourside of the 19+ spell of 'uber death.

And again, for some armies, we're forced to spend 500+pts to even get a Lv4 wizard of our own...

Point taken, still wouldn't get complacent though. Seems as if I'm torn for choice with all these new Wizards popping up...

 gmaleron wrote:
I really think that alot of your guys are overreacting to this. I am not denying it is good, however I do feel that the "end of the world" mentality from some of you is a little over the top. Like most new books its not surprising that a good item like this will be and is considered OP. However as more and more people play against and with the book I am sure plenty of tactics, strategies and counters will come about, you guys need to play with it/against it before you scream "OP" is all I am suggesting.

Considering that thus far 8th edition seems to have gone to great lengths to do away with crap like 3++ ward saves, (though WoC kept theirs), this item is simply shifting things back to square one for alot of armies...
Not to mention, completely boned Daemons & Wood Elves! (like they really needed any more nerfing )

I'm still waiting actually for a viable Daemons counter to this...

The only viable counter I've heard proposed is "QQ more l2p"

There isn't really a viable counter.

Those people I'm sure would also be cool with playing a game where the opposing force can cram 50-75% of their army into a unit that has a 2+ ward save against their entire army as well.

Because they have moved to the next level of the game and understand strategy, and stuff.

auticus wrote:
The only viable counter I've heard proposed is "QQ more l2p"

There isn't really a viable counter.

Those people I'm sure would also be cool with playing a game where the opposing force can cram 50-75% of their army into a unit that has a 2+ ward save against their entire army as well.

Because they have moved to the next level of the game and understand strategy, and stuff.

I still don't get who is going to actually do this though! Sure this would completely shaft a daemon player but at what point do you see yourself meeting this Death Star? It won't be in a tournament, unless the elf general is an idiot, because it would doom him against every other opponent not to mention the fact that this banner will have the gak comped out of it. Again in pugs you won't face this list as it would get trounced by almost every other army than daemons. The only time you'll face it is when you play a prearranged game against someone and if they take this banner AND put it in a deathstar then they're TFG and don't play em again and word will soon get round and no one will play them.

To summarise all this fear of helf deathstars is pretty irrelevant because you won't see it in tourneys or pugs as the likelihood of a player having it in his list on the off chance of a daemons match up is pretty small. Anyone who does take this against you is a bit of a

 Jubear wrote:


I am totally aware of the faq that is why the tactic works you park a unit in front of a block, said block has to charge or backpedal (1" rule) if he charges he will kill the chaff 99% of the time and then he cannot overun thus stoping the unit making any forward progress. And why does your list not use chaff? Its chaff that wins game by controlling board space allowing you to get the match ups you want, that seems like something you would want to include to cover all your bases.

Your just upset that there is one army in the game that has a counter to a your obvious massive block playstyle "push it all forward hammer" is for beginners.

Jubear your ignorance of the rules is matched only by your arrogance in assuming what kind of armies and army lists other people use.

You dont know wtf you are talking about in regard to chaff. I on the other hand am quite successful in using chaff in my beastman, lizardman and other armies. Unlike you I also know the rules and keep up with the changes so I am not cheating my opponents.

Here is the latest ruling on overrunning

Q: If a unit charges into combat and, on the turn it charges, the last
of the enemy unit it is fighting are removed as casualties due to
Daemonic Instability, the Unstable special rule, Cornered Rats or as
a result of a War Machine failing its Break test, does the charging
unit get to make an Overrun move? (p58).
A: Yes.

You on the otherhand have stated that the HE player would not get to over run and insisted you have read the latest faq. From these two facts we can logically deduce (not assume) that your reading comprehension skill is not very high.

It is somewhat discouraging that a lot of people keep putting new posts in this thread saying to use a tactic that has previously been explained as not viable by others. Ironically these are the very people that need to do more reading and less posting because they are not familiar with the demon book or ace tacticians.

Some of you HE players need to read this stuff because I and others have given you good clues about the power of this banner for you to use instead of your weaksauce strawman tactics.

The players suggesting that this banner would be placed in a big deathstar and that no one uses big deathstars are really not thinking things through and are just wrong about deathstars not being used in tournaments. Many, many tournaments are completely uncomped, the vast majority of the NA tourneys are not comped.

The BotWD is too good not to take its 50 points, it can go on a regular std bearer in the HE army, is fing broken against demons and wood elves, great against dwarves, super useful against WoC and too good for its points if you do put a mage in it. Now a really smart elf player would know that in a tournament list that perhaps it should not go in a deathstar or a mage bunker. Or they might even deploy their mage in a different unit depending on the opponent. Now you all can just figure this out for yourself but since we are talking remedial level tactics I will give you a clue: Martial Prowess changes what it means to be a deathstar for HE.

It appears that at least one person posting in this thread and indeed more have heard somewhere on the internet "chaff is good, use some". Unfortunately these people have not used chaff as much as they say or have opponents that are very weak, otherwise they wouldnt be claiming that chaff was some solution to the BotWD for demon players.

Good chaff needs to be cheap, fast, skirmishers, high ld, and able to make a flee reaction. As others have said, the demon army does not have a lot of chaff and in particular you cant make a flee reaction. An example of the best type of chaff is regular skink skirmishers, they are fast for infantry, they are cheap and they are going to rally most of the time. You dont get too close to the enemy because you want to block, redirect and pull the enemy way in a different direction.

Now the problem is in this thread that a lot of you have heard wonderful stories about how great chaff is and you are confusing really good chaff like skinks with really crappy chaff like demon units. Demon units cannot flee which is a huge disadvantage for using them as chaff. If you take a chaff unit and put it in front of the unit with the BotWD the demon unit is going to get crushed and over run. Then even if you have also redirected it somewhat then the HE unit with its high leadership and musician is just going to swift reform anyway.

Chaff really works best on things that cannot swift reform like monsters and is very useful for redirecting and setting up flank charges. It has a lot of uses but with the new rules on frenzy it is not so good as it used to be. It is somewhat less than mediocre for demons and because of the recent ruling it has been made worse. The ruling is not that big of deal for demon players but it is a really big slap in the face for a lot of Tomb King players who dont exactly have the greatest army book of all time.

Now all of this is moot anyway if the HE player has two brain cells that they can rub together and I can assure you the HE players I game with and fight in tournaments are very smart. The demon army does not have enough shooting and magic to win a game on this alone. You are going to have to go to the HE player and all the HE player has to do is focus their army around a solid unit with the BotWD

It is a bit sad, after VC made everyone start buying magical attacks "just in case" to see this come along and totally ding all magical attacks. You'd need some fairly grotesque luck with a DoC unit to grind through a 2+ ward save, right enough...

Ugly Green Trog wrote:
I still don't get who is going to actually do this though! Sure this would completely shaft a daemon player but at what point do you see yourself meeting this Death Star?

I don't think many people would unless they knew what they were facing beforehand and then you could just punch them in the face in real life.

But the item (if it exists) is godlike for everyone. You don't have to put 50% of your army in. But there is no reason to not put 25%. That 25% becomes effectively immune from all enemy heroes, and 2 entire armies. That's...really good. So even if DoC faced an all-comers list like that, they would see what, 25% let's even say 15% of the enemy army being almost completely immune to them. That's still hard to deal with.

Oh, God forbid something being hard to deal with!

Really, though, if it's in a ginormous death star you curse your luck, but that HE player likely isn't winning the tournament either, which means that (just as Strike Squad span vs. Daemons in 40k) it isn't going to pop up very often.

If it's NOT on a ginormous death star, you go for the other units. In this case it's just a hard matchup, something everyone else has to deal with.

In short, it's not that the Deathstar/banner list is balanced against Daemons as the fact that you're not going to see it in tournaments, because it's binary as hell. Either you counter your opponent, in which case you win, or your opponent counters the ever living crap out of you, in which case you lose.

As a final note, since it doesn't seem to have been mentioned, Alarielle gets a -1D3 to all casting attempts when there's a Daemon within 12" of her, and the anti-Daemon missile has a 12" range.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Oh, God forbid something being hard to deal with!

Really, though, if it's in a ginormous death star you curse your luck, but that HE player likely isn't winning the tournament either, which means that (just as Strike Squad span vs. Daemons in 40k) it isn't going to pop up very often.

If it's NOT on a ginormous death star, you go for the other units. In this case it's just a hard matchup, something everyone else has to deal with.

In short, it's not that the Deathstar/banner list is balanced against Daemons as the fact that you're not going to see it in tournaments, because it's binary as hell. Either you counter your opponent, in which case you win, or your opponent counters the ever living crap out of you, in which case you lose.

As a final note, since it doesn't seem to have been mentioned, Alarielle gets a -1D3 to all casting attempts when there's a Daemon within 12" of her, and the anti-Daemon missile has a 12" range.

Again, in a comp'ed environment, you likely won't see Bannerstar'ing 50%+ of a High Elf army.
On our side of the pond however, we don't typically use comp, and a goodly number of current HE are guess what? Teclis w/White Lion horde - guess what that equals?!

And as pointed out numerous times, under the new rules, HE's won't have to shove a mega-huge unit to deathstar, because of Martial Prowess giving them an additional rank right off the bat...
So BotWD in a unit of even 30 WL's is going to be very problematic, especially if it's then supported by the likes of Telics, or Alarielle, or a Lv4 Mage w/Boook of Hoeth plus a tooled-up fighty character or two. (Here's a scary thought; can you fit a Lv4 + Anointed into a 2400pts list?! ) That unit is near immune to;
a) almost all Miscast damage.
b) almost all enemy characters. (because almost all fighty characters do indeed take magic weapons to make them better at their main role)
c) most war machines. (Bret Treb's will still worry them, but WL's laugh at Mortars and most of the really dangerous is guess what, Magical damage!)
d) 2 entire armies, just because...

That is a massive benefit & huge advantage over a good chunk of the playing field for just 50pts. Who the hell wouldn't include that?! That unit and all the attached characters now have just one really big fear, and that is facing Dwellers and/or Final Trans. (and not every even has access to those toys...) The only other deathstar it likely still fears is an Ogre Gutstar, but even then, it's still likely near-immune to the characters.
And even if it's not on a WL deathstar, you will most certainly see it on a unit of Dragon Princes who will be able to charge about and hit what they want with impunity, since most of the normal counters won't work against them.

The outcry is not "will it roflstomp every tournament now?", but rather, will it lead to/encourage even more boring, stupid shinanigans & '6-dicing mega-spells FTW' that will almost certainly ruin peoples' gaming experience and likely drive people away from the game?

The answer btw, is almost certainly it will.

Tell me again why we should be encouraging this kind of bull****?

Experiment 626 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Oh, God forbid something being hard to deal with!

Really, though, if it's in a ginormous death star you curse your luck, but that HE player likely isn't winning the tournament either, which means that (just as Strike Squad span vs. Daemons in 40k) it isn't going to pop up very often.

If it's NOT on a ginormous death star, you go for the other units. In this case it's just a hard matchup, something everyone else has to deal with.

In short, it's not that the Deathstar/banner list is balanced against Daemons as the fact that you're not going to see it in tournaments, because it's binary as hell. Either you counter your opponent, in which case you win, or your opponent counters the ever living crap out of you, in which case you lose.

As a final note, since it doesn't seem to have been mentioned, Alarielle gets a -1D3 to all casting attempts when there's a Daemon within 12" of her, and the anti-Daemon missile has a 12" range.

Again, in a comp'ed environment, you likely won't see Bannerstar'ing 50%+ of a High Elf army.
On our side of the pond however, we don't typically use comp, and a goodly number of current HE are guess what? Teclis w/White Lion horde - guess what that equals?!

And as pointed out numerous times, under the new rules, HE's won't have to shove a mega-huge unit to deathstar, because of Martial Prowess giving them an additional rank right off the bat...
So BotWD in a unit of even 30 WL's is going to be very problematic, especially if it's then supported by the likes of Telics, or Alarielle, or a Lv4 Mage w/Boook of Hoeth plus a tooled-up fighty character or two. (Here's a scary thought; can you fit a Lv4 + Anointed into a 2400pts list?! ) That unit is near immune to;
a) almost all Miscast damage.
b) almost all enemy characters. (because almost all fighty characters do indeed take magic weapons to make them better at their main role)
c) most war machines. (Bret Treb's will still worry them, but WL's laugh at Mortars and most of the really dangerous is guess what, Magical damage!)
d) 2 entire armies, just because...

That is a massive benefit & huge advantage over a good chunk of the playing field for just 50pts. Who the hell wouldn't include that?! That unit and all the attached characters now have just one really big fear, and that is facing Dwellers and/or Final Trans. (and not every even has access to those toys...) The only other deathstar it likely still fears is an Ogre Gutstar, but even then, it's still likely near-immune to the characters.
And even if it's not on a WL deathstar, you will most certainly see it on a unit of Dragon Princes who will be able to charge about and hit what they want with impunity, since most of the normal counters won't work against them.

The outcry is not "will it roflstomp every tournament now?", but rather, will it lead to/encourage even more boring, stupid shinanigans & '6-dicing mega-spells FTW' that will almost certainly ruin peoples' gaming experience and likely drive people away from the game?

The answer btw, is almost certainly it will.

Tell me again why we should be encouraging this kind of bull****?

Can you put the magic banner on multiple units? I thought it was just one per army.

I dont' play in tournaments. The issue that this brings is that if you play in

* leagues where you know your opponent before hand
* campaigns where you know your opponent before hand
* open games where you write your lists when you get to the store

then if you are a demon player you have to rely on your opponent's generosity to not create a douchebag unit. In leagues you have to either comp the item or request to not be scheduled against high elves if you are a demon player or just give up the win if the HE player shows up with the skill unit. (unless your idea of fun is spending your free time getting hammered in a game where you are not just at a disadvantage (which I feel is fine) but at a gross disadvantage the entire game. This feels more akin to playing a game where you have 500 points and your opponent has 2000. With no special rules.

Chaffe for demons -> not viable.
Redirect -> see chaffe. YOu're just feeding the high elves free points.

If they've locked 1000 points into this unit out of 2000, the demon player can only really get 1000 points out of his opponent. That means the high elf player needs to focus on scoring 1100 points to win.

If the high elf player goes ultra douche, he could lock 1500 of his 2000 points into this banner, meaning the demon player only has access to 500 points to kill. This means the high elf player needs to kill 600 points of demons to win. 600 points of demon is a normal sized unit and a character thereabouts.

That's not a "game" that anyone would want to play. If I sat across from anyone here and said "let's play but 75% of my army gets a 2+ ward against anything that you can do, I just have to dock myself 50 points for the priveledge" - what type of reaction would you expect I'd receive?

auticus wrote:

...That's not a "game" that anyone would want to play. If I sat across from anyone here and said "let's play but 75% of my army gets a 2+ ward against anything that you can do, I just have to dock myself 50 points for the priveledge" - what type of reaction would you expect I'd receive?

Well, according to alot of the people responding to this thread, the answer is, "shut-up cry-baby & just lrn2play"...