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 gmaleron wrote:
I find it funny that players who used to run one of the most OP armies are complaining about the new HE's before the book is even released. I think you guys are overreacting, as mentioned there are multiple ways to counter a big deathstar unit, just because we now have one that is effective vs your army does not make our army op.

The point being that every counter that daemons have access to, doesn't work. In this case, it is ok for daemons to bitch.
Options I see are
1) tank it with a nurgle prince and hope you don't pop from instability;
2) Feed it 3 units of furies (60 points each) and 3 beasts of nurgle (60 each) and hope that's enough to keep it busy all game.
3) Blue Scribe and hope for dwellers.
4) Doom and darkness followed by terror test.

-Matt

DP will at least be able to thunderstomp, assuming he survives.

I concur that this seems a bit ouch for Daemons playing against High Elves, but...

In a competition environment, how many HE players would put all their eggs in one basket in this manner in the hope they would come up against Daemon players?

Any army that has access to a unit with multiple non-magical attacks (an Ogre Bull horde for example) is going to happily chew through this High Elf unit. There are plenty of counters from non Daemon armies that should make HE players think twice about trying this super unit in a tournament environment.

As for friendly games? Well if it keeps popping up, don't play him.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, ignore it/distract it with chaff and kill the other 25% of the army. Avoid it the rest of the game and win.

This. It's worked for High Elves with our current book, why can't it work for other armies?

 Jubear wrote:

Oh gak just read the etheral spell rules again I figured it was only for the caster and not a whole unit buff....And yeah that spell is fething broken the banner is good but that spell is a game changer =(

Read it one more time and notice the part where Etheral only lasts for that magic phase. You become Etheral so you can walk through terrain, but then it ends. The Etheral part isn't what makes it good, it's that it lets you reposition like crazy.

 Flashman wrote:
I concur that this seems a bit ouch for Daemons playing against High Elves, but...

In a competition environment, how many HE players would put all their eggs in one basket in this manner in the hope they would come up against Daemon players?

Any army that has access to a unit with multiple non-magical attacks (an Ogre Bull horde for example) is going to happily chew through this High Elf unit. There are plenty of counters from non Daemon armies that should make HE players think twice about trying this super unit in a tournament environment.

As for friendly games? Well if it keeps popping up, don't play him.

I think the main "Bannerstar" build will be one of two versions;
a) 40+ White Lions (because they're Stubborn & S6) w/Alarielle who filthy, 1-2 support mages and a tooled-up fighty character or two.
Supported by a Phoenix and maybe some flying boats or Phoenix Guard block with the bare minimum spent on Archers or Seaguard.

b) Dragon Prince deathstar w/a pair of fully tooled-up fighty characters, a mounted Lv4 + Lv2 hiding in the second ranks.

The Lv4 mage will undoubtably go for Lore of Life to regrow casulties and Dwellers spam things to death while buffing the unit. The Support mage/s will go for High Magic which is quite scary. Walk Through Worlds is going to make this build broken since it allows the Bannerstar to instantly avoid all chaff/re-directors.
The fighty characters are going to cause headachs since they can out challenge almost every other fighty character in the game since they'll likely have a 2++ due to most fighty characters carrying magic weapons. WoC are going to be very sad indeed until they start leaving all their Lord/Champion magic weapons at home.

Alerielle is silly good now. Think of her as the new Teclis. One of her rumored new rules is to give her unit a basic 5+ Ward save, which of corse gets further buffed by +1 each time a High Magic spell affects the unit. (ie: Walk Through Worlds) Plus she provides a casting bonus to Life & Light users, AND is a Loremaster High Magic.
Oh, and she gets Heroic Killing Blow vs armies from the Forces of Disorder to boot!

Yeah, Daemons are fethed in non-comped tournaments now...

Niteware wrote:
DP will at least be able to thunderstomp, assuming he survives.

For feth's sake I wish people would read the gakking Daemon rules for once!!!

pg26 Daemonic Attacks: "A Daemon's attacks are magical. This includes any special, ranged or Stomp attacks they make."

Bannerstar vs Daemons = HE auto-win.
If a HE player knowingly takes this crap vs a Daemon list and sinks 50% or more of their army under it's protection, they're nothing but a giant trolling donkeycave. Daemons' only answer are quite litterally "spam Miasma to no end and Pit of Shades the unit in question."
In other owrds, a tactic so random that even a compulsive gambling addict wouldn't make that bet!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Flashman wrote:
I concur that this seems a bit ouch for Daemons playing against High Elves, but...

In a competition environment, how many HE players would put all their eggs in one basket in this manner in the hope they would come up against Daemon players?

Any army that has access to a unit with multiple non-magical attacks (an Ogre Bull horde for example) is going to happily chew through this High Elf unit. There are plenty of counters from non Daemon armies that should make HE players think twice about trying this super unit in a tournament environment.

As for friendly games? Well if it keeps popping up, don't play him.

I think the main "Bannerstar" build will be one of two versions;
a) 40+ White Lions (because they're Stubborn & S6) w/Alarielle who filthy, 1-2 support mages and a tooled-up fighty character or two.
Supported by a Phoenix and maybe some flying boats or Phoenix Guard block with the bare minimum spent on Archers or Seaguard.

b) Dragon Prince deathstar w/a pair of fully tooled-up fighty characters, a mounted Lv4 + Lv2 hiding in the second ranks.

The Lv4 mage will undoubtably go for Lore of Life to regrow casulties and Dwellers spam things to death while buffing the unit. The Support mage/s will go for High Magic which is quite scary. Walk Through Worlds is going to make this build broken since it allows the Bannerstar to instantly avoid all chaff/re-directors.
The fighty characters are going to cause headachs since they can out challenge almost every other fighty character in the game since they'll likely have a 2++ due to most fighty characters carrying magic weapons. WoC are going to be very sad indeed until they start leaving all their Lord/Champion magic weapons at home.

Alerielle is silly good now. Think of her as the new Teclis. One of her rumored new rules is to give her unit a basic 5+ Ward save, which of corse gets further buffed by +1 each time a High Magic spell affects the unit. (ie: Walk Through Worlds) Plus she provides a casting bonus to Life & Light users, AND is a Loremaster High Magic.
Oh, and she gets Heroic Killing Blow vs armies from the Forces of Disorder to boot!

The casting bonus to Life & Light magic is a banner that is unlocked by having Alarielle in the army, it only goes on the BSB and only affects the unit that it's in. She's not a Loremaster, she gets to roll her spells from any combination of Life, Light and/or High Magic. The only Loremaster in the book is Teclis, and even he is only Loremaster of High Magic.

I play DoC and TK, This HE book makes me more excited to play TK and they excel vs elite armies with single big targets. And T3 Elves vs 4 wide chariots don't worry so much about ASF. Just means my skullapults worry about less large targets.

For Doc this is big, the only main thing I got is to get Final Trans. I run mostly Tzeentch and I have 2x LVL 2 Metal so I got decent odds, that I will be ok with 6 diceing every turn.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


The casting bonus to Life & Light magic is a banner that is unlocked by having Alarielle in the army, it only goes on the BSB and only affects the unit that it's in. She's not a Loremaster, she gets to roll her spells from any combination of Life, Light and/or High Magic. The only Loremaster in the book is Teclis, and even he is only Loremaster of High Magic.

Yeah, got both Alarielle & Teclis mixed up. However she's still amazing, especially in combo with the idea of building an 'uber BotWD deathstar;
5+ Ward save to her entire unit (which can be upgraded to 3++ with High Magic)
+1 to-cast all High Magic spells (so effectively +5 to-cast = ouch!)
Once per game she can re-cast a spell she's already cast
Heroic Killing Blow vs all models from Forces of Disorder
Makes her entire unit immune to Fear/Terror (bye-bye Slaaneshii Terror bombing as a possible counter)
Gives her entire unit Magical Attacks (would be halarious to see her unit get stuck against an opposing BotWD however!)

Combine her 5+ basic ward save with the High Magic lore attribute, and you can effectively make a deathstar with a 3++ vs mundane attacks & 2++ vs magical attacks.
But it's all perfectly fine & balanced according to those defending the banner because it's still not nearly as broken as the old Chosenstar was... oh wait a minute...

Its always fine and balanced when its an army you play lol

It is rather sad and pathetic that so many people do not understand how the banner being discussed is bad for the game. The responses from people gleeful that demon players are "getting their just dessert" after the last book are especially childish. When an item, unit or combination of them is a hard counter for an army it is bad for all whfb because it means that people attracted to the nerfed army will just say screw it and we probably lost them as an opponent.

I own and play 8 different armies and I have nothing but contempt for people posting in this thread who assume that people criticizing the banner are exclusive demon players just crying about some nonconsequential item that can be easily played around.

If you think that the banner as we understand it (2+ ward save) against magic attacks can be easily countered by demons you do not have an understanding of tactics or the demon army book. Feed it chaff, avoid it, flank charge it blah, blah, blah. Honestly, some of you people completely fail at warhammer.

I have never in more than two decades put together a list tailored against a specific army, ever. Maybe some of you posters that are suggesting specific (and wholly inadequate) builds to counter the HE and their crutches play in this manner but around here it is called sissyhammer and no one does it.

One person called the banner and its deathstar an expensive mage bunker. Well I suppose any demon player could beat any HE opponent that just used the banner for that purpose. A take all comers list for demons does have some chaff but not a large amount. I especially mock the person's tactic of a flank charge as an answer. Apparently they do not know about combat reforms after the first round of combat.

A smart player with this banner in their army, and it is definitely worth taking in an all commers list, should be able to crush a demon army, every time, with little work. Chaff will only go so far in a six turn game and with the new rules the HE unit will over run due to obliteration or instability tests any chaff. Some people who are claiming that you can "just avoid" this banner must have opponents that are not very smart. Why do you think you can avoid this unit for most of the game. Demon armies are not that large. If the HE player deploys his other units near the unit with the banner then how do you suppose the demon player will fight anything without being charged by the banner unit.

How many people posting here have never played whfb?

In a tournament environment demons already have serious disadvantages that make them a very inconsistent army to play. They also have ridiculous rules in regard to the general and bsb that no other army has to put up with.

In case a lot of you have not noticed, whfb is not the most popular game around by a very wide margin. The game now more than ever needs good rules and balanced army books that put all of the factions on an even footing. Tournaments are popular and even people that may not be focused on tournaments more often than not want to buy into armies that can be competitive in tournaments. This is quite obvious from the many threads people start when wanting advice about armies.

WHFB doesnt need the kind of crap that GW has been putting out lately, Banner of the World Dragon, generally crap design Demon book and unbreakable near indestructible demon princes. If you cant understand why this stuff is just bad for the game in general, then maybe you should send Matt Ward a Valentine's Day card.

People also have short memories when they say demons get what they deserve.

The 5th edition high elf book was about the most broken army book ever enshrined in the whfb hall of fame for broken armies. That book by itself is the source for why a lot of people dropped this game in the 90s and never looked back.

That may seem like a long time ago but really... a decade or so is not much time at all. Most armies have had their over powered broken days. That is not a viable excuse for why they should be screwed over now.

auticus wrote:
People also have short memories when they say demons get what they deserve.

The 5th edition high elf book was about the most broken army book ever enshrined in the whfb hall of fame for broken armies. That book by itself is the source for why a lot of people dropped this game in the 90s and never looked back.

That may seem like a long time ago but really... a decade or so is not much time at all. Most armies have had their over powered broken days. That is not a viable excuse for why they should be screwed over now.

I don't recall anything broken about that book. It certainly wasn't dreaded the way old school Undead magic and the insane Dwarf rune system were.

JWhex wrote:
It is rather sad and pathetic that so many people do not understand how the banner being discussed is bad for the game. The responses from people gleeful that demon players are "getting their just dessert" after the last book are especially childish. When an item, unit or combination of them is a hard counter for an army it is bad for all whfb because it means that people attracted to the nerfed army will just say screw it and we probably lost them as an opponent.

I own and play 8 different armies and I have nothing but contempt for people posting in this thread who assume that people criticizing the banner are exclusive demon players just crying about some nonconsequential item that can be easily played around.

If you think that the banner as we understand it (2+ ward save) against magic attacks can be easily countered by demons you do not have an understanding of tactics or the demon army book. Feed it chaff, avoid it, flank charge it blah, blah, blah. Honestly, some of you people completely fail at warhammer.

I have never in more than two decades put together a list tailored against a specific army, ever. Maybe some of you posters that are suggesting specific (and wholly inadequate) builds to counter the HE and their crutches play in this manner but around here it is called sissyhammer and no one does it.

One person called the banner and its deathstar an expensive mage bunker. Well I suppose any demon player could beat any HE opponent that just used the banner for that purpose. A take all comers list for demons does have some chaff but not a large amount. I especially mock the person's tactic of a flank charge as an answer. Apparently they do not know about combat reforms after the first round of combat.

A smart player with this banner in their army, and it is definitely worth taking in an all commers list, should be able to crush a demon army, every time, with little work. Chaff will only go so far in a six turn game and with the new rules the HE unit will over run due to obliteration or instability tests any chaff. Some people who are claiming that you can "just avoid" this banner must have opponents that are not very smart. Why do you think you can avoid this unit for most of the game. Demon armies are not that large. If the HE player deploys his other units near the unit with the banner then how do you suppose the demon player will fight anything without being charged by the banner unit.

How many people posting here have never played whfb?

In a tournament environment demons already have serious disadvantages that make them a very inconsistent army to play. They also have ridiculous rules in regard to the general and bsb that no other army has to put up with.

In case a lot of you have not noticed, whfb is not the most popular game around by a very wide margin. The game now more than ever needs good rules and balanced army books that put all of the factions on an even footing. Tournaments are popular and even people that may not be focused on tournaments more often than not want to buy into armies that can be competitive in tournaments. This is quite obvious from the many threads people start when wanting advice about armies.

WHFB doesnt need the kind of crap that GW has been putting out lately, Banner of the World Dragon, generally crap design Demon book and unbreakable near indestructible demon princes. If you cant understand why this stuff is just bad for the game in general, then maybe you should send Matt Ward a Valentine's Day card.

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

A crutch? This is the stupidest banner I've ever seen, bunker your characters in a big unit and you've beaten daemons off the bat

 Jubear wrote:

JWhex wrote:
It is rather sad and pathetic that so many people do not understand how the banner being discussed is bad for the game. The responses from people gleeful that demon players are "getting their just dessert" after the last book are especially childish. When an item, unit or combination of them is a hard counter for an army it is bad for all whfb because it means that people attracted to the nerfed army will just say screw it and we probably lost them as an opponent.

I own and play 8 different armies and I have nothing but contempt for people posting in this thread who assume that people criticizing the banner are exclusive demon players just crying about some nonconsequential item that can be easily played around.

If you think that the banner as we understand it (2+ ward save) against magic attacks can be easily countered by demons you do not have an understanding of tactics or the demon army book. Feed it chaff, avoid it, flank charge it blah, blah, blah. Honestly, some of you people completely fail at warhammer.

I have never in more than two decades put together a list tailored against a specific army, ever. Maybe some of you posters that are suggesting specific (and wholly inadequate) builds to counter the HE and their crutches play in this manner but around here it is called sissyhammer and no one does it.

One person called the banner and its deathstar an expensive mage bunker. Well I suppose any demon player could beat any HE opponent that just used the banner for that purpose. A take all comers list for demons does have some chaff but not a large amount. I especially mock the person's tactic of a flank charge as an answer. Apparently they do not know about combat reforms after the first round of combat.

A smart player with this banner in their army, and it is definitely worth taking in an all commers list, should be able to crush a demon army, every time, with little work. Chaff will only go so far in a six turn game and with the new rules the HE unit will over run due to obliteration or instability tests any chaff. Some people who are claiming that you can "just avoid" this banner must have opponents that are not very smart. Why do you think you can avoid this unit for most of the game. Demon armies are not that large. If the HE player deploys his other units near the unit with the banner then how do you suppose the demon player will fight anything without being charged by the banner unit.

How many people posting here have never played whfb?

In a tournament environment demons already have serious disadvantages that make them a very inconsistent army to play. They also have ridiculous rules in regard to the general and bsb that no other army has to put up with.

In case a lot of you have not noticed, whfb is not the most popular game around by a very wide margin. The game now more than ever needs good rules and balanced army books that put all of the factions on an even footing. Tournaments are popular and even people that may not be focused on tournaments more often than not want to buy into armies that can be competitive in tournaments. This is quite obvious from the many threads people start when wanting advice about armies.

WHFB doesnt need the kind of crap that GW has been putting out lately, Banner of the World Dragon, generally crap design Demon book and unbreakable near indestructible demon princes. If you cant understand why this stuff is just bad for the game in general, then maybe you should send Matt Ward a Valentine's Day card.

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

Actually you are the one that needs the advice because you are apparently not up to speed with the core rules. You can no longer "abuse" the crumble rule with chaff. Please read the FAQ before offering out your alleged wisdom about rules. Moreover, if you knew the first thing about the demon list you would know that a good all comers list does not have a "metric ton of chaff". You seem to be confusing the demon army with some other armies.

You assume the banner will be taken on an infantry block. You assume that it will be used on a mage bunker, indeed you make a lot of GAK assumptions. Now I know you really do not want me to PM you for advice but I will at least be more honest. Do not PM me for advice until you improve your knowledge of the core rules and armies. You see you just are not at an advanced enough stage in playing warhammer for me to help you. This is not to say that I dont enjoy helping beginners, I just wont waste time on people that dont know GAK but are under the impression they have some sage advice to offer.

Jubear, please...just...stop.

JWhex wrote:
It is rather sad and pathetic that so many people do not understand how the banner being discussed is bad for the game. The responses from people gleeful that demon players are "getting their just dessert" after the last book are especially childish. When an item, unit or combination of them is a hard counter for an army it is bad for all whfb because it means that people attracted to the nerfed army will just say screw it and we probably lost them as an opponent.

I own and play 8 different armies and I have nothing but contempt for people posting in this thread who assume that people criticizing the banner are exclusive demon players just crying about some nonconsequential item that can be easily played around.

If you think that the banner as we understand it (2+ ward save) against magic attacks can be easily countered by demons you do not have an understanding of tactics or the demon army book. Feed it chaff, avoid it, flank charge it blah, blah, blah. Honestly, some of you people completely fail at warhammer.

I have never in more than two decades put together a list tailored against a specific army, ever. Maybe some of you posters that are suggesting specific (and wholly inadequate) builds to counter the HE and their crutches play in this manner but around here it is called sissyhammer and no one does it.

One person called the banner and its deathstar an expensive mage bunker. Well I suppose any demon player could beat any HE opponent that just used the banner for that purpose. A take all comers list for demons does have some chaff but not a large amount. I especially mock the person's tactic of a flank charge as an answer. Apparently they do not know about combat reforms after the first round of combat.

A smart player with this banner in their army, and it is definitely worth taking in an all commers list, should be able to crush a demon army, every time, with little work. Chaff will only go so far in a six turn game and with the new rules the HE unit will over run due to obliteration or instability tests any chaff. Some people who are claiming that you can "just avoid" this banner must have opponents that are not very smart. Why do you think you can avoid this unit for most of the game. Demon armies are not that large. If the HE player deploys his other units near the unit with the banner then how do you suppose the demon player will fight anything without being charged by the banner unit.

How many people posting here have never played whfb?

In a tournament environment demons already have serious disadvantages that make them a very inconsistent army to play. They also have ridiculous rules in regard to the general and bsb that no other army has to put up with.

In case a lot of you have not noticed, whfb is not the most popular game around by a very wide margin. The game now more than ever needs good rules and balanced army books that put all of the factions on an even footing. Tournaments are popular and even people that may not be focused on tournaments more often than not want to buy into armies that can be competitive in tournaments. This is quite obvious from the many threads people start when wanting advice about armies.

WHFB doesnt need the kind of crap that GW has been putting out lately, Banner of the World Dragon, generally crap design Demon book and unbreakable near indestructible demon princes. If you cant understand why this stuff is just bad for the game in general, then maybe you should send Matt Ward a Valentine's Day card.

Exalt worthy!

I for myself play themed army lists most of the time or those so called "all comers" and reading those "advices" make me feel people just throw out ideas that might work with some books but not with DoC.
The new DoC book needs a lot more thinking than the broken one before and using chaff or throw away stuff is well not possible. I havent played DoC in 8th but reading through my new book makes me asking "where the hell should I get all that chaff from?" there are no throw away units, there are not many chaff worthy units and everything is kinda expensive.

I want to ask this because the posts I have seen list +2 save vs. magic (etc.)

Am I missing one that says it is a blanket 2++ instead?

(See also, OP)

I thought I read it too, but now am only seeing it in reactions.

The leaked ipad version says that the item grants a 2+ ward save against any form of magical attack, not a +2 save vs magic.

Also you don't chaffe the unit if its going to be used as a defensive bunker. A defensive bunker is not coming to get you, it just needs to be in range for its mages to cast #6 spells at you. Redirecting something that isn't coming after you is largely pointless. "Staying out of range" - good luck with that. That's assuming the high elf player is an idiot and puts the rest of his stuff away from his 2+ ward save unit. Why would he? PUt the rest of the stuff near his super unit and now you have to go near it to get to the other things (as demons largely lack any range attack barring magic for the most part).

 Jubear wrote:

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

High Elf player casts Walk Through Worlds on their SkillBannerstar...
Yep, that "metric gak ton of chaff" that Daemons don't even have access to works reaaaaally well now.

Next thing you'll be telling us to "just spam Dwellers and be done with it."



For everyone else here who actually understand the problem:
Has anyone else seen the rumored new rules for Alarielle the Everqueen?! Heroic Killing Blow vs Forces of Disorder AND an auto D6/S4 magic missle bound against every Daemons ofChaos unit within 12"?!
On top of her blanket 5++ basic ward save to her entire unit...

Now who else is starting to see the 'uberstar of doom like I am?! (Everqueen + 40 WL's + support characters = 3++ vs mundane/2++ vs magic...)

JWhex wrote:

 Jubear wrote:

JWhex wrote:
It is rather sad and pathetic that so many people do not understand how the banner being discussed is bad for the game. The responses from people gleeful that demon players are "getting their just dessert" after the last book are especially childish. When an item, unit or combination of them is a hard counter for an army it is bad for all whfb because it means that people attracted to the nerfed army will just say screw it and we probably lost them as an opponent.

I own and play 8 different armies and I have nothing but contempt for people posting in this thread who assume that people criticizing the banner are exclusive demon players just crying about some nonconsequential item that can be easily played around.

If you think that the banner as we understand it (2+ ward save) against magic attacks can be easily countered by demons you do not have an understanding of tactics or the demon army book. Feed it chaff, avoid it, flank charge it blah, blah, blah. Honestly, some of you people completely fail at warhammer.

I have never in more than two decades put together a list tailored against a specific army, ever. Maybe some of you posters that are suggesting specific (and wholly inadequate) builds to counter the HE and their crutches play in this manner but around here it is called sissyhammer and no one does it.

One person called the banner and its deathstar an expensive mage bunker. Well I suppose any demon player could beat any HE opponent that just used the banner for that purpose. A take all comers list for demons does have some chaff but not a large amount. I especially mock the person's tactic of a flank charge as an answer. Apparently they do not know about combat reforms after the first round of combat.

A smart player with this banner in their army, and it is definitely worth taking in an all commers list, should be able to crush a demon army, every time, with little work. Chaff will only go so far in a six turn game and with the new rules the HE unit will over run due to obliteration or instability tests any chaff. Some people who are claiming that you can "just avoid" this banner must have opponents that are not very smart. Why do you think you can avoid this unit for most of the game. Demon armies are not that large. If the HE player deploys his other units near the unit with the banner then how do you suppose the demon player will fight anything without being charged by the banner unit.

How many people posting here have never played whfb?

In a tournament environment demons already have serious disadvantages that make them a very inconsistent army to play. They also have ridiculous rules in regard to the general and bsb that no other army has to put up with.

In case a lot of you have not noticed, whfb is not the most popular game around by a very wide margin. The game now more than ever needs good rules and balanced army books that put all of the factions on an even footing. Tournaments are popular and even people that may not be focused on tournaments more often than not want to buy into armies that can be competitive in tournaments. This is quite obvious from the many threads people start when wanting advice about armies.

WHFB doesnt need the kind of crap that GW has been putting out lately, Banner of the World Dragon, generally crap design Demon book and unbreakable near indestructible demon princes. If you cant understand why this stuff is just bad for the game in general, then maybe you should send Matt Ward a Valentine's Day card.

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

Actually you are the one that needs the advice because you are apparently not up to speed with the core rules. You can no longer "abuse" the crumble rule with chaff. Please read the FAQ before offering out your alleged wisdom about rules. Moreover, if you knew the first thing about the demon list you would know that a good all comers list does not have a "metric ton of chaff". You seem to be confusing the demon army with some other armies.

You assume the banner will be taken on an infantry block. You assume that it will be used on a mage bunker, indeed you make a lot of GAK assumptions. Now I know you really do not want me to PM you for advice but I will at least be more honest. Do not PM me for advice until you improve your knowledge of the core rules and armies. You see you just are not at an advanced enough stage in playing warhammer for me to help you. This is not to say that I dont enjoy helping beginners, I just wont waste time on people that dont know GAK but are under the impression they have some sage advice to offer.

I am totally aware of the faq that is why the tactic works you park a unit in front of a block, said block has to charge or backpedal (1" rule) if he charges he will kill the chaff 99% of the time and then he cannot overun thus stoping the unit making any forward progress. And why does your list not use chaff? Its chaff that wins game by controlling board space allowing you to get the match ups you want, that seems like something you would want to include to cover all your bases.

Your just upset that there is one army in the game that has a counter to a your obvious massive block playstyle "push it all forward hammer" is for beginners.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Jubear wrote:

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

High Elf player casts Walk Through Worlds on their SkillBannerstar...
Yep, that "metric gak ton of chaff" that Daemons don't even have access to works reaaaaally well now.

Next thing you'll be telling us to "just spam Dwellers and be done with it."



For everyone else here who actually understand the problem:
Has anyone else seen the rumored new rules for Alarielle the Everqueen?! Heroic Killing Blow vs Forces of Disorder AND an auto D6/S4 magic missle bound against every Daemons ofChaos unit within 12"?!
On top of her blanket 5++ basic ward save to her entire unit...

Now who else is starting to see the 'uberstar of doom like I am?! (Everqueen + 40 WL's + support characters = 3++ vs mundane/2++ vs magic...)

Did they take single jugga units and fiends, nurglings etc out of the book? How about MSU core regiments?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

phoenixrisin wrote:
Jubear, please...just...stop.

Nope whinging deamon players must be destroyed (in game)

Your just upset that there is one army in the game that has a counter to a your obvious massive block playstyle "push it all forward hammer" is for beginners.

Every army has access to things that counter the above. This is something that counters the entire army.

Nobody no matter what army they play would ever find an enjoyable game against an opponent where over half of his force cannot be hurt (2+ ward save against everything you can do is pretty much as not being able to be hurt as you can get)

If you throw points at the unit you are going to lose even quicker. In a 2000 point game if the elf plaoyer has locked away 1000-1500 points away from you, you can't afford to give them any points because those 1000-1500 points are not going to be had, and you are fighting for the remaining points while the high elf player (who we assume has a working pulse) just needs to shoot and magic whatever point value is exposed to win.

IE - if 1500 of 2000 points is in this banner, the high elf player needs to kill 500 points for a draw and 600 points for a win. A "chaffe unit" of demons is going to run 150-200 points or so. Willingly feeding the elf player 150-200 points on top of what he's going to be killing with his shooting and magic just accelerates him needing 600 points for the win.

Anyone here care to have a game where your opponent only needs to do that to win? Special scenario that says "your opponent only needs to score 600 points to claim victory"?

No one lining up for this? Why not? It will help us evolve to a higher state of the game! Even better still if someone doesn't want to play this scenario, then they are obviously unskilled whining newbs that only know how to push models forward while drooling on their bibs and sipping from sippy cups.

Wow some of you need to calm down.

Any decent person can see this banner is stupid good. It might even be that some will have this in their army But against say a horde of Savage orks how do this help you against Tomb guard, grave guard, temple guard, Empire halbrediers, Warriors of chaos, Plague monks Okkams spear horde of DE, and of course how the hell does this help us against a horde of Ogres. what protection is it against those. Yes this Banner is extremely powerful in certain situations .


For VC's runa 50 bus of zombies have a necro standinmg behind them adding guys back it should take two turns for the the horde to make it through a 185 point unit.

For Warriors hit em with regular warriors probably tzeentch sword and board

but really it will probably end up on a unit Of 20 WL's with a Loremaster in my army will it be OP hell yes. Will i care probablyTthis is why i stopped using my Skaven.

I really think this banner just needs to be changed to mr (5) then the Demons are no longer screwed and we can move on.

The banner is stupid good. I mean, how many points do you pay for a banner that gives the equivalance of MR (2+)? 50 points? Not by a long shot.

My Goblins, however, do not care at all

I wouldn't pay 30 points for MR(5), Magic Resistance sucks.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The banner is stupid good. I mean, how many points do you pay for a banner that gives the equivalance of MR (2+)? 50 points? Not by a long shot.

My Goblins, however, do not care at all

True that is why I believe that remving the magical attacks and instead making it Magic Resistance Level Do you even cast bro then makes it a hard to damage unit until you get in combat.

Except spells that allow for MR saves tend to not do much damage anyway. Magic Resistance is the lamest special rule to have in 8th edition.

 captain collius wrote:
Okay compare to the old one

60 pts This unit is immune to magic

I think it is just fine it means my whit lions will have a 5+ ward against magic cool

The old Banner of the World Dragon was insane . Saw it used in 'Ard Boyz for a Teclis bunker... just plain broken!

This new one... really not sure what people are so up in arms about. It's good, but every army has good items.

Why not let it get put on the table and see if you can figure out how to counter it before freaking out . One item does not an army make! As stated, this is going on one unit, so you'll just have to find non-magical ways to deal with that unit. Every army has bad match-ups, and sure this would be one for daemons. But so was the old Banner of the World Dragon!

I'm starting chaos dwarfs and things that have a 2+ against flaming are just things I'll have to deal with. Just like regenerating units will have to deal with me

So... relax a bit, folks it's not the end of the world... I guarantee it

 RiTides wrote:


Why not let it get put on the table and see if you can figure out how to counter it before freaking out .

RT, maybe you haven't heard: You're on the internet.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except spells that allow for MR saves tend to not do much damage anyway. Magic Resistance is the lamest special rule to have in 8th edition.

Agreed and thats why this banner is either going to be stupid good or essentially meaningless.