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Sir_Prometheus wrote:
All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)

I don't think you understand how terrible leadership 2 is on a jump assault unit with only one attack that is fragile as hell. Take any losses and the entire unit just nopes off the battlefield. And Flamers have a damn near 50% chance of giving MEQs feel no pain for free, stackable feel no pain no less. So with a few bad rolls you can wind up with literally invincible enemies.

 Exergy wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)

meganobs are an assault unit that is still slow. and they are good not great. The have 2+ saves and standard load out of weapons. The difference is that meganobs come at a substantial discount to what you would otherwise be able to get (nob, with combishoota, PK and 2+ save for only 40 points). In addiition they come in a book that lacks quantities of power weapons or 2+ saves so they fill a role not otherwise covered elsewhere in the codex. Mutilators are very similar to terminators and do not come at a significant discount.

Yeah....you know what the difference is? Nobs have access to good, cheap assault transports, can come in units larger than 3, and worst case happens, they can at least shoot a little. THose are soem pretty huge diferences.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)

meganobs are an assault unit that is still slow. and they are good not great. The have 2+ saves and standard load out of weapons. The difference is that meganobs come at a substantial discount to what you would otherwise be able to get (nob, with combishoota, PK and 2+ save for only 40 points). In addiition they come in a book that lacks quantities of power weapons or 2+ saves so they fill a role not otherwise covered elsewhere in the codex. Mutilators are very similar to terminators and do not come at a significant discount.

Yeah....you know what the difference is? Nobs have access to good, cheap assault transports, can come in units larger than 3, and worst case happens, they can at least shoot a little. THose are soem pretty huge diferences.

Of all the bad ideas, driving Meganobz around in a Trukk is one of the worst ever.

 Kain wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)

I don't think you understand how terrible leadership 2 is on a jump assault unit with only one attack that is fragile as hell. Take any losses and the entire unit just nopes off the battlefield. And Flamers have a damn near 50% chance of giving MEQs feel no pain for free, stackable feel no pain no less. So with a few bad rolls you can wind up with literally invincible enemies.

I do, actually, though they're essentially fearless when not in CC. They're also stupid cheap. Like any demon unit, I think they need to only get in fights you're sure they can win. Isn't there soem way to get them a herald or otherwise boost their leadership? I dunno, I didn't say they were good.

Flamers actually have 2/3 chance to give marines FNP. Either kill make sure you use the unit outright or don't use them on marines.

Demons seems all about making sure you're overwhelming things. I'm not really defending these units, just saying that they're at least usable. Mutilators are awful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)

meganobs are an assault unit that is still slow. and they are good not great. The have 2+ saves and standard load out of weapons. The difference is that meganobs come at a substantial discount to what you would otherwise be able to get (nob, with combishoota, PK and 2+ save for only 40 points). In addiition they come in a book that lacks quantities of power weapons or 2+ saves so they fill a role not otherwise covered elsewhere in the codex. Mutilators are very similar to terminators and do not come at a significant discount.

Yeah....you know what the difference is? Nobs have access to good, cheap assault transports, can come in units larger than 3, and worst case happens, they can at least shoot a little. THose are soem pretty huge diferences.

Of all the bad ideas, driving Meganobz around in a Trukk is one of the worst ever.

Seen it work, but battlewagons are pretty cheap too. What's the problem? Meganobs get used all the time. They're nothing like mutilators.

Tell me this, how are they better than either using terminators, or paying 15 pts more for obliterators? Obliterators are nearly as good in CC, can actually do something while they fail to catch the target.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)

I don't think you understand how terrible leadership 2 is on a jump assault unit with only one attack that is fragile as hell. Take any losses and the entire unit just nopes off the battlefield. And Flamers have a damn near 50% chance of giving MEQs feel no pain for free, stackable feel no pain no less. So with a few bad rolls you can wind up with literally invincible enemies.

I do, actually, though they're essentially fearless when not in CC. They're also stupid cheap. Like any demon unit, I think they need to only get in fights you're sure they can win. Isn't there soem way to get them a herald or otherwise boost their leadership? I dunno, I didn't say they were good.

Flamers actually have 2/3 chance to give marines FNP. Either kill make sure you use the unit outright or don't use them on marines.

Demons seems all about making sure you're overwhelming things. I'm not really defending these units, just saying that they're at least usable. Mutilators are awful.

There isn't a single fight furies can win. I've seen them routinely get their butts handed to them by Fire Warriors in assault. They are the most useless, pointless, and confusingly detrimental unit in the Daemons dex and just taking them hurts your entire army by eating your budget for something that is garaunteed to do nothing but embarrass you. And they have the audacity to be in the same section as a lot of very good units.

I'm sure that in this T4 unit dominated meta that you'll get plenty of chances to wheel your glass cannons close enough to GEQs to still run the dire risk of giving them feel no pain for free assuming they weren't shot to pieces beforehand or were charged and brutalized because god damn are Tzeentch daemons gakky in assault. I mean, the only reaction Marine, Ork, or Necron players have when they see Flamers is gut busting laughter because whereas most units have the courtesy to just do nothing if they fail, Flamers instead give your enemies bonuses for free.

Actually, better than free. Completely at your expense.

OK, so you're a demon player, and you're butthurt?

Maybe they are that bad, don't really feel like arguing it. Still not as bad as mutilators.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
OK, so you're a demon player, and you're butthurt?

Maybe they are that bad, don't really feel like arguing it. Still not as bad as mutilators.

As a Tyranid player I frequently emphasize with Daemons as they share a lot in common with my army, and once they stopped sucking so god damn bad with their new codex I decided to use a lot of former shelf warmers to form an army. They're much better now but boy oh boy do they have some terribad units.

 JGrand wrote:

Well, yes, I can ignore them. I can probably just walk away.

for 93 pts you could have 3 terminators.

If you want to run away from an objective, I'm fine with it. All I'm advocating is that they are at worst, a decent disruption unit.

In addition, there are plenty of units that don't want to run, lest they risk losing heavy weapon shots or a solid vantage point. Again, points well spent.

Finally, if we want to go point for point, 3 Terminators is 95 points, and adding an additional terminator brings the total to 126. 2 MoN Mutilators is 122 points. Aside from those "awesome" combi-bolters, the Terminators are worse. The Mutilators are more survivable due to a higher toughness, have equal wounds and save, and have better close combat options.

Finally someone who gets my point. I still don't understand how people miss the point that if you have an odd 55 pts and have FILLED your better slots ie FA and HS, then they are amazing at disruption. They are even cheaper then termicide, sometimes I just can't scrape up the points for that termicide unit, but I can generally find use for the lone mutilator. I get the feeling that the people hating on them really have never tried them in this role, the lone wolf role. Can he be killed? Totally, but you win games by forcing your opponent to make bad decisions or better yet force him to make those calls where he can't come ahead of you. Most things that can deal with him easily cost WAY more then 55 points meaning the have to waste ordinance on him and not the rest of your force.

Maybe they are that bad, don't really feel like arguing it. Still not as bad as mutilators.

Mutilators aren't even the worst choice in their own codex. I would head to any competitive event with Mutilators over any of the Cult troops taken as Elites, a Hellbrute, Possessed, Warp Talons, or a Defiler. I wouldn't ever even consider the aforementioned options in a competitive list--I would, in some instances, take a lone Mutilator or two.

Saying that Mutilators are one of the worst units in the game is simply not correct. I can list a handful of options in almost every codex that are worse. Again, not trying to make the claim that they are a "blue chip auto-include," but they do have a place at times.

Everyone thinks defilers are bad. They're actually pretty good.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
Everyone thinks defilers are bad. They're actually pretty good.

The problem with defilers is that they don't do anything particularly well. Their mediocre BS hampers them in assault and their selection of guns isn't going to wow many people for shooting. And they have a freaking gigantic base that isn't overly durable.

All I'm advocating is that they are at worst, a decent disruption unit.

I agree that if you have a spare 55pts and an open FOC slot then they really are decent provided you DS them AND there are no mishaps AND they survive the obligatory round of shooting + overwatch before they get to cc. Because of all that though, I would change your quote to the following:

All I'm advocating is that they are at BEST, a decent disruption unit.

I certainly wouldn't take them but the OP was asking for possible uses and I think that DS'ng one with maybe MoN is one of the best. Unless you want to try and load a gaggle of them into a Land Raider, but IMO that's too much of a points sink. I don't think they are the worst unit in the game, but they are definitly one of the least well thought out units in the game (although poorly thought out units pretty much defines CSM).

I agree that if you have a spare 55pts and an open FOC slot then they really are decent provided you DS them AND there are no mishaps AND they survive the obligatory round of shooting + overwatch before they get to cc. Because of all that though, I would change your quote to the following:

All I'm advocating is that they are at BEST, a decent disruption unit.

With premeasuring, deep striking isn't that bad. I am aware that they need to survive a round of shooting, but that is why you have to pick your battles. I don't mind taking some hits from Lasguns and Bolters shot by backfield objective campers. Really, I don't mind taking shots that are AP 3 and higher. Even if a bunch of Broadsides are forced to shoot you down, that is a turn of shooting that you were able to dictate. The Mutilator may have saved something far more valuable.

Mutilators won't pay off every game, but lots of things don't. A MoN Mutilator is 4 less points than Marbo, and is similarly boom or bust. While the Mutilator isn't packing that one shot demo charge, they are far more survivable and versatile.

Again--not for every list. Not an auto take. But certainly not unusable.

 Kain wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
Everyone thinks defilers are bad. They're actually pretty good.

The problem with defilers is that they don't do anything particularly well. Their mediocre BS hampers them in assault and their selection of guns isn't going to wow many people for shooting. And they have a freaking gigantic base that isn't overly durable.

Nah, man. Everyone looks first at the mauler fiend but it only has 2 attacks base. I forget the exact math but you can get way more attacks on a defiler.

And it's got a very simple battle plan. Move->shoot, Move->shoot, charge. Fleet, it's gonna to get the charge off nearly the same time (maybe you slip to turn 3) as the maulerfiend, do a lot more in the mean time and hit harder when it does.

 JGrand wrote:

I agree that if you have a spare 55pts and an open FOC slot then they really are decent provided you DS them AND there are no mishaps AND they survive the obligatory round of shooting + overwatch before they get to cc. Because of all that though, I would change your quote to the following:

All I'm advocating is that they are at BEST, a decent disruption unit.

With premeasuring, deep striking isn't that bad. I am aware that they need to survive a round of shooting, but that is why you have to pick your battles. I don't mind taking some hits from Lasguns and Bolters shot by backfield objective campers. Really, I don't mind taking shots that are AP 3 and higher. Even if a bunch of Broadsides are forced to shoot you down, that is a turn of shooting that you were able to dictate. The Mutilator may have saved something far more valuable.

Mutilators won't pay off every game, but lots of things don't. A MoN Mutilator is 4 less points than Marbo, and is similarly boom or bust. While the Mutilator isn't packing that one shot demo charge, they are far more survivable and versatile.

Again--not for every list. Not an auto take. But certainly not unusable.

Why would you compare something to Marbo then say "they don't have the one thing that makes Marbo any good" which is the deep strike demo charge..

Honestly I don't see how you would ever have 55 points left over for a model that is slow, has low amounts of attacks and isn't a threat to most units. Lack of a run move is pretty awful for a CC unit! Even terminators can run.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
Everyone thinks defilers are bad. They're actually pretty good.

The problem with defilers is that they don't do anything particularly well. Their mediocre BS hampers them in assault and their selection of guns isn't going to wow many people for shooting. And they have a freaking gigantic base that isn't overly durable.

Nah, man. Everyone looks first at the mauler fiend but it only has 2 attacks base. I forget the exact math but you can get way more attacks on a defiler.

And it's got a very simple battle plan. Move->shoot, Move->shoot, charge. Fleet, it's gonna to get the charge off nearly the same time (maybe you slip to turn 3) as the maulerfiend, do a lot more in the mean time and hit harder when it does.

maulerfiends cost almost half as much and move twice as fast. They dont shoot, but they neuter fortifications and vehicles if you come across them.

 Exergy wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
Everyone thinks defilers are bad. They're actually pretty good.

The problem with defilers is that they don't do anything particularly well. Their mediocre BS hampers them in assault and their selection of guns isn't going to wow many people for shooting. And they have a freaking gigantic base that isn't overly durable.

Nah, man. Everyone looks first at the mauler fiend but it only has 2 attacks base. I forget the exact math but you can get way more attacks on a defiler.

And it's got a very simple battle plan. Move->shoot, Move->shoot, charge. Fleet, it's gonna to get the charge off nearly the same time (maybe you slip to turn 3) as the maulerfiend, do a lot more in the mean time and hit harder when it does.

maulerfiends cost almost half as much and move twice as fast. They dont shoot, but they neuter fortifications and vehicles if you come across them.

More than twice as fast.. Mutilators can't run.

He was talking about defilers. But no, they're %64 expensive, and not twice as fast, as the defiler's have fleet -- it makes a big difference.

Kirasu wrote:

 JGrand wrote:

I agree that if you have a spare 55pts and an open FOC slot then they really are decent provided you DS them AND there are no mishaps AND they survive the obligatory round of shooting + overwatch before they get to cc. Because of all that though, I would change your quote to the following:

All I'm advocating is that they are at BEST, a decent disruption unit.

With premeasuring, deep striking isn't that bad. I am aware that they need to survive a round of shooting, but that is why you have to pick your battles. I don't mind taking some hits from Lasguns and Bolters shot by backfield objective campers. Really, I don't mind taking shots that are AP 3 and higher. Even if a bunch of Broadsides are forced to shoot you down, that is a turn of shooting that you were able to dictate. The Mutilator may have saved something far more valuable.

Mutilators won't pay off every game, but lots of things don't. A MoN Mutilator is 4 less points than Marbo, and is similarly boom or bust. While the Mutilator isn't packing that one shot demo charge, they are far more survivable and versatile.

Again--not for every list. Not an auto take. But certainly not unusable.

Why would you compare something to Marbo then say "they don't have the one thing that makes Marbo any good" which is the deep strike demo charge..

Honestly I don't see how you would ever have 55 points left over for a model that is slow, has low amounts of attacks and isn't a threat to most units. Lack of a run move is pretty awful for a CC unit! Even terminators can run.

Tycho wrote:

All I'm advocating is that they are at worst, a decent disruption unit.

I agree that if you have a spare 55pts and an open FOC slot then they really are decent provided you DS them AND there are no mishaps AND they survive the obligatory round of shooting + overwatch before they get to cc. Because of all that though, I would change your quote to the following:

All I'm advocating is that they are at BEST, a decent disruption unit.

I certainly wouldn't take them but the OP was asking for possible uses and I think that DS'ng one with maybe MoN is one of the best. Unless you want to try and load a gaggle of them into a Land Raider, but IMO that's too much of a points sink. I don't think they are the worst unit in the game, but they are definitly one of the least well thought out units in the game (although poorly thought out units pretty much defines CSM).

The question still stands though, have you fielded a solo mutilator in the suggested fashion or are you speaking from pure theory?I

feel like the people who are hating on the strategy of using them for line breaker or disruption seriously have no idea and are not speaking from experience.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
A friend of mine was convinced to try Mutilators by someone on Dakka, oddly enough. Until that time, we were in the "one of the worst units in the game" category.

Oh how wrong we all were. They've been the most effective unit on the field in more than half the games they've been in, and been instrumental in all of them.

No amount of talking is going to convince anyone, you'll have to see them in action. Take 3 Nurgle Mutilators and give em a whirl. That unit is pretty cheap, so you won't be compromising your army at all.

If your opponent is going to rush into you, use them as counter assault. If your opponent is a static gunline, set them up on a flank and just rush up the field. Or, if you want to distract the back of their army, deep strike.

The people saying they are awful are almost certainly saying that based on just their stats and not actual play. Everyone telling you they are good has seen them on the table.

Good point. I have never played them or seen them played. I will proxy them next chance I get. It can't hurt.... well that bad at least.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
He was talking about defilers. But no, they're %64 expensive, and not twice as fast, as the defiler's have fleet -- it makes a big difference.

but as the maulerfiend isnt worried about shooting, they run in every shooting phase and they also have fleet, so yes they are twice as fast.
turn order mauler defilers
1st turn 16.5" 6"
2nd turn 28.5+9.5" 12"
3rd turn already in assualt 18+9.5"
in 2 turns the maulerfiend is going to cover over 10" more than the defiler in 3 turns. Sure you get that shooting, but you might not even get into assault turn 3, you might have to wait till turn 4. The maulerfiend threatens infiltrators turn 1. It threatens just about anything turn 2. The defiler threatens things set at the edge of the oppoents deployment zone turn 3 and that is about it.

The question still stands though, have you fielded a solo mutilator in the suggested fashion or are you speaking from pure theory?I

Honestly, no. I haven't taken one because if I want disruption I have other units that do that really well. I also can't remember the last time I had 55 points to spare at the end of making a list. That being said though, I CAN see them being somewhat useful as a one off teleporting assault unit on a backline, or to push something shooty off an objective at a later point in the game. So much has to go right for that to happen though that I'm not convinced it's something that should really be relied upon. I have a few games tonight though, so will re-work my list to fit in a mutie with MoN and see how it goes!

 Exergy wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
He was talking about defilers. But no, they're %64 expensive, and not twice as fast, as the defiler's have fleet -- it makes a big difference.

but as the maulerfiend isnt worried about shooting, they run in every shooting phase and they also have fleet, so yes they are twice as fast.
turn order mauler defilers
1st turn 16.5" 6"
2nd turn 28.5+9.5" 12"
3rd turn already in assualt 18+9.5"
in 2 turns the maulerfiend is going to cover over 10" more than the defiler in 3 turns. Sure you get that shooting, but you might not even get into assault turn 3, you might have to wait till turn 4. The maulerfiend threatens infiltrators turn 1. It threatens just about anything turn 2. The defiler threatens things set at the edge of the oppoents deployment zone turn 3 and that is about it.

The defiler threatens everything that tries to close with your army. There is nothing like seeing the look on your opponents face as your defiler charges and wipes the squad of terminaters that just deepstriked in, or the infiltrator/outflankers your enemy was going to harrass you with. They also screen rhinos pretty well. Id take them over mutilators any day.

Last time I faced mutilators, my foe managed to infiltrate 2 units of 3. By the end of the game they had torn out the middle of my army despite my shooting madly at them. I believe that while they may not be the "win Button" units, they still can be pretty effective. Especially against non horde armies as hordes have the weight of fire required to drag them down.

Never tried the lone wolf. Sounds like it could be a viable option, though a Oblit would probably be a better deal.

I have tried both Mutilators and maulerfiends. I was in a phase where I wanted to create a total cloase assault list which didnt fire a single shot.

Actually, mutilators may be on par or even better than Maulerfiends. The times I tried mutilators, they did something. I used them on their own, solo, and I used 3. So, one turn you could have 3 mutilators dropping on 3 different points in the battlefield.

I deep striked them in aggressively. Footprint of one mutilator is small, plus if I deep strike, good chance it goes back to reserve, big deal. Even if I lose the mutilator, thats 55 points. So I deep strike them very near where I want, literally within 6 inches, so that next turn, there is no way they can run away. Plus some stuff like that ranged unit camped in ruins, simply can't or won't run away. They are too comfortable where they are.

Mutilators then to be under estimated. Only after one mutilator charges a landraider and takes it out with double chainfists, then people start to treat it with respect. Even if they shoot it, they sometimes forget that its a 2 wound unit. Yes, it can be ID. But then you waste a lascanoon shot at one model. Same lascannon shot won't be taking out some other more dangerous stuff.

The games I played them, mutilators did something. They HAD to be taken out because they were in the backfield and can give line breaker, but they were very irritating to take out.

Maulerfiends on the other hand. The thing looks good on paper, I tried it and they fared worse than Mutilators. I tried 3! And every game I tried them, they still fared worse than 3 single mutilaors (and cost a bunch more). They literally did nothing in the games I tried them.

Why? Because they start on your side of the board, they are big juicy priority targets with only AV 12. Sure they got 5++ but when you are penned, and you need that save, it doesn't happen. AV 12 is remarkably easy to take out, especially for a unit that is slogging up the field since its easy to present its rear sooner or later which is only AV 10..

I had games where all 3 maulerfiends were dead by turn 2. I had a game where my last maulerfiend declared a charge on mephiston. He overwatched with his plasma pistol, scored a pen, and immobilised it. The mauler fiend sat there for the rest of the game as a deadweight until it was mercy killed for vp...

Try out 3 solo mutilators deep striking in aggressively before you say they are crap. You will be surprised how effective they can be. At the very least, they give line breaker, which in itself is worth one VP. They just need to charge something and there's a good chance they will kill it and make more than their points back. On the off chance they get to charge and kill a vehicle, then they are definitely making their points back!

Oblits are good too, but you can take both mutilators and oblits. There is a ton of competition in the heavy support slot. In elites, there is little competition.

I really want an excuse to use them also, but I hear nothing but bad reviews on them :(

 HeraldofDisease wrote:
I really want an excuse to use them also, but I hear nothing but bad reviews on them :(

Just try 2 for 110 points. Deep strike them in solo, one by one, in opponent's backfield. Try that out for a couple of games and then you can form a better idea. At the worst, they didn't do anything and you are down 110 points, but he probably needed to devote more than 110 points worth of shooting to take both out. In other games, they will shine, kill more than their points, give you linbreaker, destroy a whole flank, etc

Just try 2 for 110 points. Deep strike them in solo, one by one, in opponent's backfield. Try that out for a couple of games and then you can form a better idea. At the worst, they didn't do anything and you are down 110 points, but he probably needed to devote more than 110 points worth of shooting to take both out. In other games, they will shine, kill more than their points, give you linbreaker, destroy a whole flank, etc

I don't think they are worthwhile without Mark of Nurgle. Remember, in 6th edition, you get real toughness 5, which is quite an upgrade.

If you are spare the points to upgrade them, then sure!

They are ok even without the upgrade. Think about it, how many ranged weapons can instant kill an mutilator. Lascannons are the main culprits. Things like missile launchers, they get a save, and their toughness is irrelevant.

If he wants to waste one lascannon on a mutilatorr, who will still get a 5++, he is welcome. Thats one less lascannon shot at a heavy support. I saved lascannon shots on that 5++ before, the reaction is very funny when that happens.

Biggest selling point about mutilators is that they are cheap. If opponent devotes some of his best weapons to take out mutilators, then I am happy. More often than not, he has far better things to do with his lascannons than shoot them at mutilators.

MoN is so ridiculously cheap, i'd never leave home without it.