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 Ravenous D wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 tastytaste wrote:
I am not sure if those DMCAs have anything to do with the current outage if you notice the day they at least a week old. Google would do an instant take down of the exact offending stuff and be done with it. They don't take down a site unless they keep on getting DMCAs not first offense or even second.

I did a search through the DMCAs and there have been a handful this year. So, putting 2 and 2 together won't exactly get you 4 in this case.

I'll chalk this up to web outage until I hear otherwise.

Complaints from GW concerning natfka:

April 22, 2013

Feb 20, 2013

Jan 18, 2013

Dec 20, 2012

Anyone want to tell me how GW is not at war with its customers now? Instead of being a better company they are attempting to silence nay sayers and rumour sites, newsflash, thats what facists do.

Thank you for not invoking godwin's law

in a perfect world I would 100% agree with you, GW is throwing it's immense size around bullying people, but that's not the world we live in. Faeit is a Blog that covers a small niche market. GW knows it can send a letter right or wrong and get Google to apply its will. DMCA is the law of the land, companies have figured out the in's and outs of it and use it too it's advantage. Hell everyone has gamed one system or another to get what we want.

Peregrine...I agree mostly with what you said after reading more about DMCA. However, it seems that it must have fallen within the law for action to be taken. There is more to what those posted notices from Google then what we understand or are seeing. Unless there is a lawyer here or someone intimate with copyright law to pick this apart, we should consider it was done within the law. Allow BoLS and Faeit212 time to pick apart what is legal and not, then let them respond.

GW might be the big bad, but we are attacking them for being a company that protects its IP (ruthlessly sometimes) and that tries to make a profit off its product. God forbid that someone protects whats theirs or tries to prosper. Btw this last paragraph is not directed at you but to us all.

Think on this, will we attack Privateer Press when...WHEN...they are in the same darn position? Unless you are a time traveller, seer or future seeing psychic dont tell me it cant or wont happen.

tree667 wrote:
in a perfect world I would 100% agree with you, GW is throwing it's immense size around bullying people, but that's not the world we live in. Faeit is a Blog that covers a small niche market. GW knows it can send a letter right or wrong and get Google to apply its will. DMCA is the law of the land, companies have figured out the in's and outs of it and use it too it's advantage. Hell everyone has gamed one system or another to get what we want.

When we do it, we're usually thieves.

GW protects it IP because it makes a ton of money off it....video games, books, art, etc etc....P.P will be selling it's I.P. soon enough. Seriously a warmahcine video game would be pretty cool.

I agree if they sell a license for a warmachine game i would be excited and probably jimp in head first.

tree667 wrote:
in a perfect world I would 100% agree with you, GW is throwing it's immense size around bullying people, but that's not the world we live in. Faeit is a Blog that covers a small niche market. GW knows it can send a letter right or wrong and get Google to apply its will. DMCA is the law of the land, companies have figured out the in's and outs of it and use it too it's advantage. Hell everyone has gamed one system or another to get what we want.

What does not being in a perfect world have to do with anything? Even in an imperfect world GW is still abusing the legal system to get away with illegitimate demands against someone that can't afford to contest them in court.

There's a simple fix to all this: GW posting information on their upcoming releases themselves! Kill the leaks and save face all at the same time - work smarter, not harder.

Jordanandrew249 wrote:
However, it seems that it must have fallen within the law for action to be taken.

I don't think you understand how this works. The fact that someone has sent a DMCA notice does not mean that it's legal, it just means that they've sent a DMCA notice. For example, I could send one to dakkadakka claiming that the post I just quoted is a copy of a post that I wrote (and therefore I own the copyright) and demanding that they take it down. This would be blatantly abusing the system and I'd be subject to legal penalties if dakkadakka contested the claim and I lost in court (which I would), but dakkadakka's owners don't want to pay for lawyers so they'd just delete the offending post.

GW might be the big bad, but we are attacking them for being a company that protects its IP (ruthlessly sometimes) and that tries to make a profit off its product.

No, we're attacking them for abusing the legal system. They're entitled to protect their IP, just like anyone else is. They are NOT entitled to demand protection beyond what the law says and use legal threats to silence anyone who disagrees.

And so, in the near future, no blog will ever speak again about GW stuff, or show pictures of their miniatures. After all, they can be shutted down for that...

And obviously, that is great for GW economical health... We are just costumers, we dont really understand the beauty behind their genial plan to control the market...

Jordanandrew249 wrote:
If Natfka was operating within the law, then there would not have been a problem. If gw sent previous request to stop/remove, etc and he didnt, causing a violation of DMCA, a copyright law, and Googles own policies then fault lies with him unfortunately. Im sure the corporate lawyers found all violations to be within the law and Google reviewed before blatantly nuking the sight. If there is some violation on GW and Googles part then it will be dealt with. At the end of the day, everything was done legally as it should to protect copyright, etc. on the other hand, was it the right thing to do? I dont know, I dont believe so but unless you are Natfka, GW and Google legal department then we should probably wait and see whats going to happen. I realize thats not likely to happen.

You are missing a big step in the process of applying laws...actually having a trial.

If I say you killed my puppy, that doesn't mean you killed my puppy. If I get a new puppy, it dies and I say you killed that one too - that still doesn't mean you killed my puppy. The way it would actually work is a bit like this (longer form than the earlier one):

GW files a DMCA takedown notice with Google for the Faeit website posting images of the White Dwarf High Elf releases (and lets say every release for the past 20 years...just to give them some meat).

Google disables the offending images and contacts "Bob the Blogger" proprietor of Faeit 212.

Faeit responds saying I am a journalist.

Google forwards that response to GW.

GW files a lawsuit citing Google and John Doe as defendants (John Doe being "Bob the Blogger" as at this point - GW might not have access to the real identity of Bob).

Google goes on over to the district court with legal lackey #845 to deliver the evidence that their safe harbor provisions were fulfilled. The court notifies John Doe that they are being sued and they evaluate any specific privacy concerns (whistle blower statutes and the like) that would prevent them from being named.

The court verifies that Google dotted their "I"s and crossed their "T"s - and then dismisses claims against Google and pencils in Bob the Blogger in place of John Doe.

The lawyer for John Doe presents an affirmative defense to the judge saying, "Yes, my client used copyrighted material from GW in order to disseminate news". The judge looks at the evidence. He than looks at the impact that that evidence might have on the commercial value of White Dwarf (little to none - remember, all the information regarding product releases is posted on the website for preorder prior to the release of the White Dwarf that has it).

The judge issues a summary judgment telling GW to leave Bob alone and be happy that he is providing news for the company.

The judge than asks Bob's legal counsel to add up how much was spent defending the case and awards that as damages to Bob and his legal team.

Now, you could have the case drag on a bit further - but there would be little in terms of discovery that might happen other than GW possibly seeking to find out the source of the pictures. Journalistic sources are considered to be sacrosanct - and if you want to create a martyr and really get some bad press...try to be a company who is attempting to force a journalist to give up the name of their confidential informant. Not only would the various Geek news outlets cover that story - but you will be spit roasted by regular media as well, and the defense fund for "Bob the Blogger" would bloat to numbers that would make GW's legal budget wilt in shame and embarrassment.

In the end though, a drawn out case would still have the same end result - the only difference is that instead of having to pay $50,000 in legal fees for Bob, GW might have to pay half a million in legal fees.

 puma713 wrote:
There's a simple fix to all this: GW posting information on their upcoming releases themselves! Kill the leaks and save face all at the same time - work smarter, not harder.

This. How far in advance does PP give us info? Usually 2-3 months? To be honest, knowing how much I need for something months in advance gives me the ability to save a little out of every paycheck for it.

 Peregrine wrote:

Jordanandrew249 wrote:
However, it seems that it must have fallen within the law for action to be taken.

I don't think you understand how this works. The fact that someone has sent a DMCA notice does not mean that it's legal, it just means that they've sent a DMCA notice. For example, I could send one to dakkadakka claiming that the post I just quoted is a copy of a post that I wrote (and therefore I own the copyright) and demanding that they take it down. This would be blatantly abusing the system and I'd be subject to legal penalties if dakkadakka contested the claim and I lost in court (which I would), but dakkadakka's owners don't want to pay for lawyers so they'd just delete the offending post.

GW might be the big bad, but we are attacking them for being a company that protects its IP (ruthlessly sometimes) and that tries to make a profit off its product.

No, we're attacking them for abusing the legal system. They're entitled to protect their IP, just like anyone else is. They are NOT entitled to demand protection beyond what the law says and use legal threats to silence anyone who disagrees.

Ahh gotcha. So what should probably happen soon is the first post should be adjusted to include all relevant information, what the thread is about, etc. I fell victim to not undestanding all the relevant points and went on a rant concerning gw right to protect themselves, etc vs. all the people attacking the big bad GW. I pretty much fell victim to picking sides, while trying to sift through the truths and rage rants...how many more of the posters are just ranting and raging off topic I wonder.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
but there is a big difference between rules pages from a rulebook and pictures of upcoming releases from a magazine.

Actually, there's a big difference between the two: you can't copyright game rules, period. It would be entirely legal to post the entire rules from IA12, as long as you posted them in your own words.

Yes - but not pictures of the rules page...

That goes back to the whole copyright/phonebook issue. In the linked to Russian site - their text segment is likely legal (haven't read fully - but it looks like paraphrasing the rules as opposed to copying word for word). Photocopies or pictures of the rules pages though could amount to significant commercial harm. While the content itself might not be copyrightable, the manner in which it is presented can be. That is why I made the point of specifying the pictures as opposed to just the stat lines (which GW also complains about in the DMCA).

i made a mistake. Sorry, no spam intended.

wow wouldn't it rock if GW just posted a schedule of what was coming out for a 2-3 period or OMG a 6 month Puma should buy GW

Well yes, yes it would. 2-3 years is maybe a bit too much, but 6 months seems standard enough.

Sean whats your legal background?

I'm not sure how on board I am with GW's policy of controlling the release of info on upcoming products but hey; if its good enough for Apple I'm sure it's good enough for them.

In terms of its legal right the law being quoted appears to have provision to consider the effect of copying the material on the sales of the product. If you post a bunch of pictures of a magazine before it's released it's an easy argument for GW to make to say that it would negatively affect sales (which it no doubt does).

On a broader point I've never seen a community of such entitled people. You don't have the legal right to get access to images of a company's product before they're ready to release them. why on Earth shouldn't they be able to act to protect not only their legal right to release their own material but the profits generated by it ? Also it's utterly ignorant and offensive to bandy words like fascist around in this context.

I used to enjoy the blog as much as the next man and I hope the guy gets something back up soon, fair to say that if he does so with copyrighted pictures from upcoming products GW will have home taken down again and they've got every right to do so.

tree667 wrote:
Sean whats your legal background?

Married a lawyer. Ran a software development company for 12 years and dealt with IP law (copyright, trademark and patent) on a daily basis. Involved with several lawsuits directly. Still play golf with my IP attorney and we discuss things at length on a regular basis.

ithilmere wrote:
I'm not sure how on board I am with GW's policy of controlling the release of info on upcoming products but hey; if its good enough for Apple I'm sure it's good enough for them.

To paraphrase someone...I knew Apple, and GW is no Apple.

Secrecy only works if anyone really cares. GW is a niche within a niche within a niche. Secrecy for them amounts to the kid saying "I have a secret" - but nobody really cares what the secret might be. OK, so maybe one other person cares - but in the grand scheme of things...GW does not have annual press events where they roll out the latest and greatest - that are attended by thousands looking to find out what the new iThing might be.

ithilmere wrote:
In terms of its legal right the law being quoted appears to have provision to consider the effect of copying the material on the sales of the product. If you post a bunch of pictures of a magazine before it's released it's an easy argument for GW to make to say that it would negatively affect sales (which it no doubt does).

Sure, if you ignore that the pictures would have already been released online for...what, 4 days (that is the current schedule now right?). If GW feels safe to post the pictures in their online preorder section a week before they are released and the WD only comes out 3 days before they are released...GW has already shot themselves in that financial foot.

ithilmere wrote:
On a broader point I've never seen a community of such entitled people. You don't have the legal right to get access to images of a company's product before they're ready to release them. why on Earth shouldn't they be able to act to protect not only their legal right to release their own material but the profits generated by it ? Also it's utterly ignorant and offensive to bandy words like fascist around in this context.

They are able to protect things within the scope of the law. If their employees who print the magazines snag some cell phone pictures from the new releases and leak them to a blogger - that is now outside of GW's right to control under the law. If they have a book like Imperial Armour 12 on display at Games Day - and someone snaps a few pictures of it there before Forge World posts it online - that is outside the scope of the law. Lots of companies legally control their product news and development. However, even with Apple - leaks happen and stories get out. However, once the story gets out - you don't file a false claim in order to attempt to put the genie back in the bottle.

It isn't an issue of entitlement. I could really give a rat's butt about what the next GW release might be. The issue is abuse of copyright laws (in this case) against those who apparently do care enough to track down a source and procure images to share with the world.

ithilmere wrote:
I used to enjoy the blog as much as the next man and I hope the guy gets something back up soon, fair to say that if he does so with copyrighted pictures from upcoming products GW will have home taken down again and they've got every right to do so.

Only if he doesn't actually follow through with the steps I outlined above (though I should have thrown a declaratory judgment phase in as well...but alas, it is late and I am old).

ithilmere wrote:
If you post a bunch of pictures of a magazine before it's released it's an easy argument for GW to make to say that it would negatively affect sales (which it no doubt does).

Actually it's an impossible argument to make, since they just posted pictures and not the article text/painting guides/etc. Nobody buys WD for the pictures because better pictures will be freely available on GW's own website before WD arrives in stores. The impact on sales, to anyone who isn't a GW lawyer, is zero.

You don't have the legal right to get access to images of a company's product before they're ready to release them.

You're right. I'm not entitled to break into GW HQ and steal copies of the new releases just because I want to see what they are. But if someone accidentally sells me a magazine before the official release date I have every right to post limited pictures from it in the process of writing a news post about the new releases.

why on Earth shouldn't they be able to act to protect not only their legal right to release their own material but the profits generated by it ?

Because according to the actual laws involved Faeit 212 had every right to post what they posted, and GW is abusing the legal system to shut it down.

fair to say that if he does so with copyrighted pictures from upcoming products GW will have home taken down again and they've got every right to do so.

See previous posts explaining why they don't have the right to take it down.

Ok fair enough. You sir are better qualified then me.

YouTube post by Naftka here. Not much information in the video, but he did say he would be posting to video in the future. In the comments he states that they instructed him to remove one post, but nothing about removing the whole site. Of course, that was 7 hours ago.

News from Nafka:
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/04/29/meat-meta-gw-banning-hysteria-smug-kettles/

Supposedly this may have been one big misunderstanding?

-Natfka
the notices I have received from Blogger are for individual posts, and declares that those particular posts are removed to draft status. Nothing from either Games Workshop or Blogger about the removal of the blog itself.
I will continue posting, and things will continue. so stay tuned.
until then I will be posting up on my YouTube channel.

i have always felt that the best way to deal with an spoiled unruly turd is a firm slap down .

GW did this , and will CONTINUE to do this kind of thing because they know they can . they know they peeve the players off , but they also know that those customers ........most of those customers will continue to buy their products no matter hpw childish and geedy GW acts , because they have been doing this kind of thing for a long time now , and people are still buying their products .

if players really wanted to flex their muscles , and get GWs attention , they would unite , and boycotthe company for a week or 2 . haveing their sales drop to zero for a week would hit them where they hit the customers . sadly though , we all know that players wont do that ; instead being content to be abused and treated like the enemy , as they always have been

Ok, Faeit has one hell of a view to wake up too every morning no matter where this arguement goes.

 GrandInquisitorOrdoXenos wrote:
i have always felt that the best way to deal with an spoiled unruly turd is a firm slap down .

GW did this , and will CONTINUE to do this kind of thing because they know they can . they know they peeve the players off , but they also know that those customers ........most of those customers will continue to buy their products no matter hpw childish and geedy GW acts , because they have been doing this kind of thing for a long time now , and people are still buying their products .

if players really wanted to flex their muscles , and get GWs attention , they would unite , and boycotthe company for a week or 2 . haveing their sales drop to zero for a week would hit them where they hit the customers . sadly though , we all know that players wont do that ; instead being content to be abused and treated like the enemy , as they always have been

No, they haven't always been. Some of us remember a GW that was collaborative and supportive, or at least did a much, much better job of appearing to be. Sadly, that is a long time ago, and possibly in a galaxy far, far away.

Personally, I think this continued heavy handed litigation on GWs part smacks of desperation. They can see the walls closing in on their market share, but, for whatever reason, aren't able to innovate and capitalise on their market position and so thrash around like a dying moose, trying to damage 'the enemy' with no regard for the harm they do themselves.

 azreal13 wrote:

 GrandInquisitorOrdoXenos wrote:
i have always felt that the best way to deal with an spoiled unruly turd is a firm slap down .

GW did this , and will CONTINUE to do this kind of thing because they know they can . they know they peeve the players off , but they also know that those customers ........most of those customers will continue to buy their products no matter hpw childish and geedy GW acts , because they have been doing this kind of thing for a long time now , and people are still buying their products .

if players really wanted to flex their muscles , and get GWs attention , they would unite , and boycotthe company for a week or 2 . haveing their sales drop to zero for a week would hit them where they hit the customers . sadly though , we all know that players wont do that ; instead being content to be abused and treated like the enemy , as they always have been

No, they haven't always been. Some of us remember a GW that was collaborative and supportive, or at least did a much, much better job of appearing to be. Sadly, that is a long time ago, and possibly in a galaxy far, far away.

Personally, I think this continued heavy handed litigation on GWs part smacks of desperation. They can see the walls closing in on their market share, but, for whatever reason, aren't able to innovate and capitalise on their market position and so thrash around like a dying moose, trying to damage 'the enemy' with no regard for the harm they do themselves.

Agreed. This may have been a misunderstanding, or even technical error, but the reputation that GW has built for themselves has everyone immediately whispering in dark corners about what is going on. I mean, think about how this would have been viewed if GW acted like a normal company: previewing their own releases, advertising their products, spreading the word about their upcoming events. This incident may have been passed over as a fleeting headline.

"Oh look, BoLS and Faeit are down. Eh, big deal."

But no, they have shrouded themselves in bad publicity and poor PR so that now, even a pedestrian story such as this one (if it turns out to simply be a matter of removing a post) can rattle the cages of the niche media. GW doesn't even have to do anything to get bad press now - their long list of achievements is doing that for them.

 n0t_u wrote:
Well yes, yes it would. 2-3 years is maybe a bit too much, but 6 months seems standard enough.

Well.. remember at one time there was a significant lead time on releases..

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Anyone want to tell me how GW is not at war with its customers now? Instead of being a better company they are attempting to silence nay sayers and rumour sites, newsflash, thats what facists do.

Thank you for not invoking godwin's law

Technically, he didn't. It was the Italians who set up the facist regime. He is, however, misusing the word.

Back on topic, I wonder if some "Robin Hood" type is going to post those pictures on a non-Google hosted site and set them loose on the internet just to spite GW? Won't be me because I don't have copies of said pictures, but given the attituted of some people and the anonymity of the internet...