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I got a lore question for you guys. From what I understand, space marines usually have their pre-Astartes memory completely wiped, but then you have stuff like the James Swollow Blood Angels novel, where Rafen and Arkio are brother and remember that their brothers. Shouldn't they no know they are brothers if they got a memory wipe?

I ask because I'm a writing a Space Wolf story and it talks about his pre-Astartes life. How much of that would he remember?

Eh?! Noooooo, they don't get their memories wiped. Grey Knights do, but that's the exception rather than the rule. Most Chapters retain ties to their home world as a result of their previous lives. This is especially true of the Salamanders, who can even visit their families occasionally.

It's not necessarily that they have their memories wiped. It's more that the process of becoming an Astartes also includes a lot of psychological indoctrination. They are essentially breaking individuals down and remolding them from the ground up to be loyal and devoted members of the Chapter. That probably has certain side effects like selective memory loss, and the person coming out the other side of that process isn't likely to consider any details of their pre-Astartes life important to their self-identity.

This is one of those things that is different depending on which author you ask.

The bottom line is that Space Marines go through an intense brainwashing regimen as part of their transformation into Astartes. The whole process, of course, varies greatly according to chapter, but most Marines do not have clear, accurate memories of their former lives. This memory loss can be intentional or incidental, depending on the chapter involved, and be due to psychological, chemical, or physical processes, in addition to the possibility of some other option.

Soul Hunter (Aaron Dembski-Bowden) and Salamander (Nick Kyme) both deal with marines who must confront their pasts.

I think that the Space Wolves are probably less purposeful when it comes to supressing the memories of their recruits. The intense chemical and surgical regimens can (and probably do) supress or muddle some of their memories, but I would imagine that they would be largely intact.

On top of what has been said before, mind you that Astartes don't have much of a life before they become Astartes. Most are taken in when they are teenagers/adolescents, so they haven't had much time to get a ton of memories before going through mental indoctrination. They could remember their lives before, but for the most part they don't have much to remember nor why should they bother trying to remember.

There are exceptions to the rule depending on chapter and special circumstances (like the brothers situation), but for the average Marine from the average codex chapter it's pretty close.

In the early HH novels the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, often spoke about their home world Cthonia, even to the extent of noting smells and sights that reminded them.

 washout77 wrote:
On top of what has been said before, mind you that Astartes don't have much of a life before they become Astartes.

Indeed . Probably their only real accomplishments before becoming a marine is passing the trials to become a marine. The ones who HAVE done more than that are exceptional.

Eldercaveman wrote:
In the early HH novels the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, often spoke about their home world Cthonia, even to the extent of noting smells and sights that reminded them.

Garro also had a faint memory of his childhood on Terra in "Flight of the Eisenstein".

But then, becoming a Space Marine is, to all effects, being made anew. They're given heightened senses, and the ability to quickly process and store vast ammounts of sensorial and cognitive data, in a body that barely feels the strains of time. As newer, more intense experiences pile up and displace older memories, those become hazy, dreamlike snippets that eventually fade. They probably remember their lives before becoming Astartes like a grown man remembers his toddler years.

Excellent news. I ask because my character talks about having a pregnant wife before becoming a space wolf. Later in the story he finds an imperial guard officer with his last name and his red hair.

Well the only problem there is that Space Marines are recruited quite young. He'd have to be an early starter to have a pregnant wife, even with the Space Wolves' rather loose adherence to the canon, lol.

Olaf Shieldbreaker wrote:
Excellent news. I ask because my character talks about having a pregnant wife before becoming a space wolf. Later in the story he finds an imperial guard officer with his last name and his red hair.

Yeah they are usually taken at childhood, as the older a person gets the less likely they are to take to the implants.

Ragnar Blackmane was recruited as a teenager, according to his Lexicanum Page. Maybe the same could happen to Olaf and he married young.

Space Marines are usually taken in early adolescence between the ages of 12 and 16.

In a medieval or feral world culture, marriages often occurred an children were produced from 13 up.

So it is possible he was taken at 15 or 16 with a 14 to 16 year old pregnant wife

Works for me. Thanks everyone.

http://images3.alphacoders.com/474/1280-1024-4745.jpg

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Space Marines are usually taken in early adolescence between the ages of 12 and 16.

The fluff actually suggests that it's more like 8-12(and as young as 6 for some chapters) since the first implants need to be done in the 10-12 range and obviously they don't just pick them up off the street and start jamming stuff in them.. A 16 year old has already missed the window.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/c/c8/SMCreation.jpg

The Space Wolf Novel's suggest that Ragnar was selected after fighting in battle. I have a bit of a hard time believing that he fought in his first battle at 8. So maybe 14?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ragnar_Blackmane#.UYF_bjbn-Uk

Olaf Shieldbreaker wrote:
The Space Wolf Novel's suggest that Ragnar was selected after fighting in battle. I have a bit of a hard time believing that he fought in his first battle at 8. So maybe 14?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ragnar_Blackmane#.UYF_bjbn-Uk

At least, but Space Wolves recruits along with the Sons of Dorn more likely are older, or hit puberty quite early. Though it gets a bit squicky thinking Lukas the Trickster bedding a dozen women in one night before his balls should realistically drop.

Yes, the SM recruitment process is disturbing. Especially when you think about it, and the terminology used.

[edit: removed inappropriate material. Seriously it's creepy.]

GW doesn't really think too hard on its fluff decisions.

Olaf Shieldbreaker wrote:
The Space Wolf Novel's suggest that Ragnar was selected after fighting in battle. I have a bit of a hard time believing that he fought in his first battle at 8. So maybe 14?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ragnar_Blackmane#.UYF_bjbn-Uk

Fenris is friggin' brutal, eight year olds being forced to fight in warfare would not surprise me at all.

I've seen multiple instances of Astartes remembering their pre-Marine lives (Garro, Arkio, Talos and Xarl, etc). I've only seen one instance of Marines being mind-wiped, and that was with the Grey Knights.

I always got the impression that you were only selected for the Space Wolves by stomping serious tail fighting for your village on Fenris. The Space Wolves would observe and take the best of the best to the Fang for training, augmentation and trials. Also mild civilizing. In the "from barbarian to spice viking" sense of the term.

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, the SM recruitment process is disturbing. Especially when you think about it, and the terminology used.

[edit: removed inappropriate material. Seriously it's creepy.]

GW doesn't really think too hard on its fluff decisions.

The whole background and premise of W40K is supposed to be dark and disturbing, not all pink and fluffy and nice. It's just a pity the fluff had been toned down and adopted for a more mainstream and possibly younger audience.

I'm unaware of new flew, but is it really toned down? I mean, all this disturbing stuff still lies just beneath a surface, open to anyone willing to put some effort into understanding it. Before it was not empathized, but it's still here, not yet denounced or any less important than it was.

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, the SM recruitment process is disturbing. Especially when you think about it, and the terminology used.

[edit: removed inappropriate material. Seriously it's creepy.]

GW doesn't really think too hard on its fluff decisions.

Seems more like they don't discuss them period (the creation of Space Marines that is).

 farmersboy wrote:
The whole background and premise of W40K is supposed to be dark and disturbing, not all pink and fluffy and nice. It's just a pity the fluff had been toned down and adopted for a more mainstream and possibly younger audience.

If it's been "toned down" for a younger audience, why haven't they removed the pederastic undertones yet?

Which are?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Which are?

Indeed, I think I've missed them too.

[edit: You know what, feth it. Too inappropriate for this forum. Stop tempting me to break rules I'll PM it instead.]

Those undertones are only there if you are looking for them. I highly doubt they are in any way deliberate.

We can only hope they are.