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Female Army soldier pleads guilty to desertion to avoid second tour in Iraq  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

I see that the points I raised struck a nerve then, GT.

Hell, if this was a male soldier in question, the article would never have been posted in the first place.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Nice try at a rise, but no. I couldn't care less. Nor do i have any control of what the media picks up on and what they don't.

We were talking about desertion. Doesn't matter the sex of the soldier, its a crime. One that used to be punished by firing squad. Bringing your sexist baggage into a thread not related to the issue is bad taste.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/03 19:01:58


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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USA

 Grey Templar wrote:
Doesn't matter the sex of the soldier
On the contrary, the topic would never have been posted, this discussion never would have been had, if it was a male soldier who was the one doing the deserting. So her sex obviously IS an issue here, as shown by your own responses.

Numerous men desert every year-- not a single one gets talked about for over a year on Dakka.. One woman deserts-- ERMAGERD! Now THAT is a discussion worth having! Yes, SHE is someone we have to talk about and vilify!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/03 19:03:50


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Sex is only an issue for the media. Not for me.

Its a story fishing for sympathy about the situation.

As you said, lots of people desert the army each year for a multitude of reasons. To expect preferential treatment of this story is stupid.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 Grey Templar wrote:
To expect preferential treatment of this story is stupid.
On the contrary, this thread's very existence shows different treatment.

edit: Oh, and in case someone is making the assumption that I think she shouldn't be punished as harshly, I've already made arguments to the contrary earlier in this thread, go and read them.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/05/03 19:13:24


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Melissia wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
Please find some non-anecdotal evidence to support that.
I didn't just provide anecdotal evidence.

But if you require more links...
ynetnews.com (example from Israel)
community.babycenter.com (testimonials)
cmrlink.org (discusses the disrespect from congress)
heinonline.org (pro-sex-integration article)
adrian.vanbreda.org (pdf: study exploring womens' experiences in the miltiary)

I could go on; stories of female soldiers not being given the respect that male soldiers are given aren't exactly new or rare..

I bet you could. Good thing that's not what we are talking about, nor have we been, Melissia.

We are discussing the level of sympathy this woman has received on account of her desertion; not the level of respect women in service receive. Please refrain from trying to move the goalposts when you are taken to task.


Melissia wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
Additionally, the woman in the OP did not cite the "stress and duress she was put in by her husband" as her motivation, she cited that "she became disillusioned with the U.S. mission in Iraq" as her reason for deserting.

I never said she did.

Don't pull crap out of thin air and try to write my name on it.

You put your name on it. Twice. Right here:

So he's a murderer who went AWOL to kill the guy his wife was cheating on him with, but he gets sympathy because that ***** deserved it. But her? Apparently she's a stupid bitch who got what she deserved, because HOW DARE someone make an irrational decision under the stress and duress she was put in by her husband
I agree that it was poorly thought out, but considering the situation her husband put her in, I'd say she deserves some sympathy


Listen, you can get as defensive about it as you want, but it seems quite plain that you're getting tripped up on your own outrage, which is very predictable. The fact of the matter is this: a soldier deserted, citing being disillusioned with the war. The soldier receives no sympathy on Dakka, which is home to many verterans and other people who otherwise understand what is meant by responsbility and contractual obligations. End of story. The gender of the soldier has no bearing on this situation, outside of what you have projected it to mean.

You have attempted to compare this situation to one in which a male soldier deserted to become a murderer rather than a cuckold; which is not an apt comparison as said murderer did not cite his "disillusionment with the way" as his reason for deserting. Many people are sympathetic to a situation wherein ones responsibilities leave your family vulnerable to internal strife; but few will be sympathetic to a situation wherein you simple don't feel like doing a contractually-obligated job anymore. However, rather than observing that difference, you immediately assumed it was a gender bias. Someone else has already called this one aptly: you heard hoofbeats and expected a zebra.

If you still think this is all gender bias, then why not ask the forum? Would the mob be more or less sympathetic to the woman, had she deserted for the express purpose of murdering the husband who may have attempted to take her kids away? I suspect that, even though we have several verterans on Dakka, even they would express a modicum more sympathy in that situation, than for someone who merely didn't feel like doing her duty anymore.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

I'm not moving the goalposts at all, Azazel.
 azazel the cat wrote:
You put your name on it. Twice.
I never suggested that she stated that this was her primary motivator.

So instead of pulling crap from midair, you're intentionally misrepresenting my post. How droll.

Because you apparently didn't read the article:
During her sentencing hearing, government lawyers argued that Rivera, who was granted leave shortly into her tour to work out marital issues, failed to return because her husband threatened to leave her and take their children, The Gazette reported.
That is what the government believed, and, given that she was convicted, that is likely what the government proved to be true according to the court of law. That is what I based my statement off of.
 azazel the cat wrote:
said murderer did not cite his "disillusionment with the way" as his reason for deserting.
I don't care. An irrelevant factoid.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/05/03 19:45:04


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Even when quoted, you still deny saying it.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 azazel the cat wrote:
Even when quoted, you still deny saying it.
You sound shocked that I deny saying something that I never said.

I never said she claimed that this was her reason for deserting, and no matter how much you talk about it, that won't change.

That she claimed she was a conscientious objector in court could simply be the case of her following her lawyer's suggestions-- I don't have enough details on that account. But the court apparently found that it was marital problems that was the primary reason for the desertion.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/05/03 19:55:22


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





She was on a two week mid-tour leave. There are a myriad of army/red cross systems in place to help at-risk soldiers or soldiers who are having significant problems. She could have gotten Army Community Services, the cops, the chaplain, or JAG involved.

When I went home on emergency leave in 2010, I sent one email to my commander asking for an extension for another week of leave in order to bury my sister. I spent MAYBE an hour or two coordinating it and it was approved.

Hard ship REFRAD orders are fairly common - especially for cases where spouses or children may be in danger due to the absence of the parent(s).

As to Melissia's insistance that there's some sort of gender bias going on in the thread due to the deserter being a woman... well, I will say that fox news may have a gender bias, but if you want to post up threads about other (male) deserters then I think I can safely say that most of the veterans here will shower him with the same scorn. I have no patience for oath breakers and law breakers. That applies equally across the board whether we talk about desertion, sexual assault, harassment, racism, or insubordination.

The military provides a wonderful rubric for evaluating people and it's called standards. You follow rules, regulations, and you meet standards and you are, more often than not, a good soldier. You don't do those things and you are a bad soldier. The vets here are simply applying that rubric.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Melissia wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
It is a comment
I'm glad you noticed. Maybe you could also notice that I was talking about the responses of the people on this forum. And I was noting the disparity between comments towards a male soldier and comments towards a female soldier-- how there is a double standard between how male and female soldiers are treated by people on this forum, on the internet, and in society as a whole.


Honest to God, if someone posted an article about a male "soldier" going AWOL, I'd say the same thing... I've done this job for 9 years now, been through some pretty seriously fethed stuff, but I'm still plugging along. I don't have time for these worthless scum who willingly signed up for this job who can't deal with their commitment.

As I also pointed out, I strongly suspect, based on my experiences in the same sort of unit, that she was not getting the support she needed from those around her the most.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

I think this story got traction in the news because a female deserter is more rare than her male counterpart and it sells well as a 'human interest story'.

But a crap bag is a crap bag regardless of what is between its legs.

Support from her unit or not, she made the decisions she did. Every one has freedom of choice, no one should have freedom from consequences. I have no sympathy for her or any crap bags that deserts their fellow troopers. Regardless of what her chain of command did or did not do, she made choices and can deal with it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/04 01:55:56


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
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Posts with Authority






The whole "emergency leave to sort out marital issues" sounds like a cooked up story to me, since within those two weeks she fled to Canada with her husband. Her husband was with her the whole time, apparently they contacted the War Resisters Support Campaign together. Sounds like it was all part of a plan to bail.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/04 08:17:28


 
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






This was a pretty straightforward story, so I am surprised to see it still going.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
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Gender became an issue.

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Melissia wrote:
Hell, if this was a male soldier in question, the article would never have been posted in the first place.


I respectfully disagree. I think any soldier or marine who flees the country to avoid deployment; then gets deported by Canada, would be considered a strong human interest piece regardless of gender, especially so on Dakka's OT with it's disproportionate ratio of military types.

It's a sad story.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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The Void

And to clarify since I'm Mr. Harsh Punishment for deserters around here. I'm all for firing squads and hangings for murderers, deserters, traitors and other scum of the earth regardless of race, color, gender, creed or sexual orientation.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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Southern California, USA

TBH, I kind of agree with Melissia. The first thing that came to my mind when I read it is "Oh, boy, this is going to end with someone saying that women aren't capable with serving. Just look at her!". The fact that the title is "-Female- Army soldier..." lends to this. People are always looking for reasons to put women down and this article, and thread's existence is influenced by this.

Let's just say she's failed her responsibilities, got a bad deal with her home life and got what she deserved and call it a day mentlegen.

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

I hadn't caught that, about the title of the thread. Good point.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in au
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Australia

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Grey's got it. Or the noose if we're feeling environmentally friendly.

Your internet tough guy approach would be incredibly stupid, strategically. We are not talking about a sentry who left their post undefended and got people killed. She was on leave in an entirely different country and didn't come back. You should be glad to be rid of her so painlessly, instead of fantasising about using death threats trap her where she is a liability.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
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The Void

Desertion's desertion grab your spine and do your job or do everyone a favor and don't enlist. I personally utterly despise these individuals, they get nothing but contempt from me. We had an idiot in one of my training units go "conscientious objector" on us and this was in 2008. Not like we hadn't been at war as a nation for the better part of a decade right? How could he have known he might be expected to do his job? Waste of time, effort, food and oxygen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/04 09:50:57


I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
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CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Desertion's desertion grab your spine and do your job or do everyone a favor and don't enlist. I personally utterly despise these individuals, they get nothing but contempt from me. We had an idiot in one of my training units go "conscientious objector" on us and this was in 2008. Not like we hadn't been at war as a nation for the better part of a decade right? How could he have known he might be expected to do his job? Waste of time, effort, food and oxygen.



When someone deserts either during or prior to a deployment they really screw their buddies. Someone will have to do that person's job on the deployment, and they won't usually be getting a replacement. That means they are (more) short handed than they were and the remaining folks carry an extra burden. No, I repeat NO soldier currently on active duty could possibly not have known we are at war and either enlisted anyways or has re-enlisted (for the old timers) since the wars have begun. Whether they came in for college money, sense of adventure, or what ever reason, they came in (or stayed in) with full knowledge that they may be called on to deploy into a combat zone and perform their job there.

As for punishment, the UCMJ works. A courts martial and appropriate sentence if found guilty followed by a bad conduct discharge works. I can't work up any sympathy nor even empathy for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/04 12:25:34


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in de
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 Jihadin wrote:
Gender became an issue.


*was made

   
Made in us
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USA

 Jihadin wrote:
Gender became an issue.
You made it an issue in your opening post, whether you intended such or not.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
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Seriously, get over it. Please drop the imagined slights and proto feminist nonsense. Noone here thinks she should be treated diffrently to a male solder.

Most are upset that the media clearly thinks her sex should be a mitigating factor. Or are you one of the people who thinks that we should only be upset about things where women come off worse?

 insaniak wrote:
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Glasgow

On the contrary, the topic would never have been posted, this discussion never would have been had, if it was a male soldier who was the one doing the deserting.


So its a reverse on the issue of breast cancer funding/awareness drives vs male-specific cancer funding/awareness then?

 
   
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USA

Yes, our society's double standards are rather bizarre, aren't they Mr. Hyena? I'm not getting in to a debate about sexism in health care in this thread.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/04 17:17:43


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Nice try Melissa. To me and other NCO's on here. She is a soldier. Glad you like assuming I have two different standards for gender from the get go.

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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Made in us
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USA

 Jihadin wrote:
Nice try Melissa. To me and other NCO's on here. She is a soldier. Glad you like assuming I have two different standards for gender from the get go.
I don't believe you, because if that was the case you'd not have felt hte need to differentiate in the thread title.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Nope. Its the original title. Your again assuming. I'm not going go down this road with you MeLissa because clearly you already form a opinion on me. I highly doubt you know what an EOA is. I've a feeling your either want some drama or a thread fight.

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
 
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