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This came up in another thread, but I wanted to post it with the title so that a wider audience might comment.

There are three sections of the rulebook which matter when discussing this issue, and I was wondering if there is consensus / a logical way of deciding between them or an FAQ thing that I have missed.

Panic Tests

"A panic test is simply a leadership test, as described on page 10. If the test is passed, everything is fine, but if the test is failed the unit will immediately flee"

The reasons for taking a panic test are listed and do not include Terror but do include friends being destroyed within 6".

Under Warmachines

"If a War Machine fails a Panic test (due to friends being destroyed within 6" and so on) it does not flee."

Under Terror

"If a Terror-causing creature declares a charge, the target unit must immediately take a panic test to quell their terror. If the test is passed, all is well and the unit can declare charge reactions normally. If the test is failed, the unit must make a Flee! charge reaction"

The only exception given is that if a charge reaction cannot be declared, the unit does not flee.

My understanding is that some people believe War Machines do not flee here because of the reference to panic tests, but this seems not to be the case to me.

War Machines are allowed to declare a charge reaction (hold or flee, normally), so are not ruled out by the exception.

The rule does not say that they flee as part of the Panic test (which it normally would be, except for War Machines), but that they declare a Flee! charge reaction.

Am i missing something or is this correct?

/e: Sorry, incorrect.

Terror tests are panic tests thus if a war machine is charged by a unit causing Terorr, it has take a panic test and if it fails, the war machine gets charged as normal. Remember they gotta check for Fear in melee.

The war machine rules say they can only ever chose to hold. They are never given permission to declare a Flee!.

Pg 109 under Movement, third paragraph. This screws up the Terror forcing a declared Flee! reaction.

 Sigvatr wrote:
/e:
Terror tests are panic tests

Actually, they aren't; a panic test is a component of a Terror test, which also includes the "are they allowed to declare a charge reaction" clause.

Davall wrote:
The war machine rules say they can only ever chose to hold. They are never given permission to declare a Flee!.

Pg 109 under Movement, third paragraph. This screws up the Terror forcing a declared Flee! reaction.

This is almost totally convincing - unless it counts as "being forced to flee" which mentioned later (with break tests being given as one example of when this might be the case).

"Hold" is not a charge reaction. It simply is the consequence of not choosing a charge reaction - the only charge reactions are Flee! and Stand&Shoot. It sounds stupid, I know, but it's RAW...see p.17.

War machines may therefore not choose a Charge reaction and have to "Hold"; and since Terror forces them to take a panic test, their rules for failed panic tests (aka cower behind the war machine) take precedence.

It's stupid and it's another nerf to monsters / buff to war machines, but that's how 8th rolls.

Great, thanks - playing dwarfs and HE next week and wanted to be clear.

if they fail their terror test i believe if your charge fails they will just not shoot next turn as that is the result for warmachine panic.

tgf wrote:
if they fail their terror test i believe if your charge fails they will just not shoot next turn as that is the result for warmachine panic.

Correct.

...although that would be funny if they got charged by a screaming DP throwing flames around, making them cower in fear, when the DP suddenly stumbles over a rock and fails to charge

Ah, now I remember.
They don't test at all.
Under Warmachines it says that they cannot choose a charge reaction and must always hold.
Under terror, it says that models that cannot choose a charge reaction do not test for terror.

So the machine doesn't flee or cower, it just doesn't test at all.

If you cause a panic test by some other means (friends fleeing through, wipe out nearby, unit breaking nearby) then it would test or cower.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, I did notice in the warmachine rules that they auto fail all characteristic tests other than toughness or leadership.
That means pit of shades/purple sun/dwellers is auto kills warmachines as they automatically fail the Initiative and Strength tests.

Pendulum would be an automatic D3 hits at S10, as it auto fails the initiative test.

Lore of Lights Net would prevent it from shooting. If it tried to shoot, it would auto-fail the strength test and take D6 S4 hits, then loose the shot.

What's extra fun is that the anvil is a warmachine. I'd have to check the wording on striking a rune, but I think it would fall under the nets ability to prevent a shooting action.

Not quite right Matt, War machines can only choose to hold, they are not prohibited from making a charge reaction like a random movement unit. Based on how all the rules operate I believe there are only two possible outcomes.

1. Dive for cover failed panic test
2. Destroyed Flee reaction

Personally because the terror rule says they take a panic test then declare a flee, and the war machine rules say instead of fleeing they dive for cover the proper way to play it is dive for cover. Order of operations is as follows.
1. Terror charge
2. Panic test (failure assumed for example)
3. Forced Flee (terror rules)
4. Flee changed to dive for cover (war machine rules)

or

1. Terror charge
2. Panic test (pass assumed for example)
3. Forced hold (war machine rules)

page 109

"If charged, a war machine can only choose to
hold - even in mortal danger the crew are loathe
to abandon their pride and joy. If forced to flee
(because of a failed Break test, for example) the
war machine is destroyed. In such cases we
assume that the crew sabotage their war machine
to prevent the enemy making use of it, before
fleeing the battle with no intention of returning."

page 17
A Flee! reaction is not always voluntary
units that are already fleeing must declare
a Flee! reaction, and certain
terrifying creatures may force an otherwise
steady to unit to Flee! instead of other options
(see the rules for Terror on page 78)

page 78
When a unit is charged by a Terror-causing
creature, there is a chance that the warriors will
abandon their position, fleeing before the
creature rather than fighting it. If a Terror causing
creature declares a charge, the target
unit must immediately take a panic test to quell
their Terror. If the test is passed, all is well and
the unit can declare charge reactions normally:
If the test is failed, the unit must make a Flee
charge reaction.

page 110
If a war machine fails a Panic test (due to
friends being destroyed within 6" and so on) it
does not flee. The crew dive for cover
underneath their machine and cannot shoot in
their next Shooting phase

This is yet another example of GW not actually using their checks properly; if a unit fails a panic check it flees, so is unable to declare a flee! reaction, unless it is a warmachine, where it dives for cover. The actual sequence of events here is:

Terror check = Panic test then Flee! if failed
Panic Test = LD check then Flee! if failed = Dive for coover if warmachine

so

Terror Check = (Ld check, dive for cover if failed) then declare Flee! reaction.

which makes no sense. If they said LD check instead of Panic test it would work, or if Terror just = Panic Test.

Actually they do not declare a flee reaction, it says they must make a flee reaction, it is an involuntary flee, not a chosen flee. The war machine rules do not prohibit flee they just can't choose to flee. Like I said you can logically play it one of two ways. Destroyed as in the fall back rules of a war machine, or dive for cover as in the failed panic test part of war machine. The dive for cover rule seems to work the best in RAW terms because it specifically says what the do instead of fleeing and it references panic which is what a terror test is.

I don't agree with the former way of thinking about it - you can't force someone to do something he can't do.

tgf wrote:
Actually they do not declare a flee reaction, it says they must make a flee reaction, it is an involuntary flee, not a chosen flee. The war machine rules do not prohibit flee they just can't choose to flee. Like I said you can logically play it one of two ways. Destroyed as in the fall back rules of a war machine, or dive for cover as in the failed panic test part of war machine. The dive for cover rule seems to work the best in RAW terms because it specifically says what the do instead of fleeing and it references panic which is what a terror test is.

Read the whole rule for terror. If you cannot choose a reaction, you do not test. Warmachines must choose to hold, which is not a charge reaction.
At this point, the terror rule says ignore terror, don't test. The terror rule is written out of sequence, because the top of the rule explains what happens when you fail, and the bottom of the rule tells you the conditions of when you take it.

For me to cower under the machine, I'd have to fail a test.
For me to be able to fail the test, I'd have to take the test.
For me to take the test, I would have to be able to choose a charge reaction of Stand and Shoot or Flee.

-Matt

Except that they do declare a reaction - Hold. It is not a situation where "charge reactions cannot be declared" - which it gives examples of (pursuit, overrun, random movement). In the Charge Reactions section of the book, Hold is the first choice detailed. War machines may only choose Hold, but they still choose it.

The sequence becomes

Terror causing creature charges
Take Terror check
(Take panic check. If fail, dive under machine)
If fail, Flee!
Destroyed

Panic test says will flee.
War machine says does not flee.
Terror says must flee.

will < does not < must, in my opinion.

Of course, this is based on my belief that they could take the test in the first place, which I think is the weakest part of the argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another example where a similar thing happens is a unit in CC.

They cannot declare a charge reaction apart from Hold, but it still counts as declaring a charge reaction. They would not usually have to take a panic test from other sources, but take one when charged by a Terror causing creature and must Flee if they fail it, despite not being allowed to declare a Flee! reaction normally.

Not being able to declare a flee reaction is not the same as not being able to flee matt, that is where you are getting tripped up. They are either destroyed because they do flee or they dive for cover. There is nothing in their rules that prohibit them from taking the test, because they are allowed to declare a charge reaction, "hold". To say hold is not a charge reaction is pretty far fetched considering it is the first Bold entry under charge reactions.

Page 17. 1st paragraph, top left corner.
There are 2 types of charge reactions, Stand and Shoot, and Flee. A unit that does not make a charge reaction Holds.

Hold is not a charge reaction.
Warmachines cannot declare a charge reaction.

I win.

-Matt

Hmm, probably, although under units in close combat it aays they must declare a hold reaction. Theb at the start of charge reactions it defines the theee reactions.... grrrr at the unclear writing.

Niteware wrote:
Hmm, probably, although under units in close combat it aays they must declare a hold reaction. Theb at the start of charge reactions it defines the theee reactions.... grrrr at the unclear writing.

It's not unclear. It's very clear in fact. The rules sometimes say that a unit must "Hold" but that still doesn't make it a charge reaction, it simply means that the unit does not get to choose a charge reaction.

Except that the rules also define it as a charge reaction in several places. I think I do reluctantly agree with you both.

Niteware wrote:
Except that the rules also define it as a charge reaction in several places.

Where?

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Page 17. 1st paragraph, top left corner.
There are 2 types of charge reactions, Stand and Shoot, and Flee. A unit that does not make a charge reaction Holds.

Hold is not a charge reaction.
Warmachines cannot declare a charge reaction.

I win.

-Matt

Under the subsection charge reactions Hold is the first reaction. How can you declare a hold charge reaction if its not a charge reaction. You lose, because you put to much stock in a section of GW's poor editing and writing. An intelligent player will realize the book is rife with inconsistencies and delve deeper to find the correct answer. Hold is refereed to as a declared charge reaction in no less than 4 places in the BRB and in several army books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 17 that you guys reference Hold is the first charge reaction.

Page 17 unders stand and shoot "Once the
shooting attack, and any Panic test caused by it
(see page 62), have been resolved, the unit is
treated as having declared a hold reaction."

Furthermore war machines can be foreced to flee.

"Jf charged, a war machine can only choose to
hold - even in mortal danger the crew are loathe
to abandon their pride and joy. I f forced to flee
(because of a failed Break test, for example) the
war machine is destroyed. In such cases we
assume that the crew sabotage their war machine
to prevent the enemy making use of it, before
fleeing the battle with no intention of returning."

pg 128 garrison units charge reactions "can only choose to hold"

furthermore and garrisoned unit can only choose to hold just like a war machine. Interestingly enough here is a precedent for what to do with terror and only hold units.
"Accordingly, a
garrison that fails its Terror test does not flee as
normal, but is forced to Hold. It does, however,
count as having automatically failed its Fear test
at the start of the ensuing round of combat."

Choose to hold reaction doesn't make it a "Charge Reaction".

GW specifically spelled out the hold is not a "charge reaction".

-Matt

a reaction to what?

tgf wrote:
a reaction to what?

To being charged of course.
That doesn't make it a CHARGE REACTION.

Tell me what you think this means:

An enemy unit that has a charge declared against it must hold or perform a charge reaction. Page 16, the bolded Rule for charge reactions.
There are two types of charge reactions: Stand and Shoot and FLEE! A unit that does not make a charge reaction is always considered to Hold. Page 17, the explanation of charge reaction.

Hold is an option you take when charged. But it is very clearly spelled out that it IS NOT a Charge Reaction.
GW says we have 2 charge reaction, then lists both of them.
I can count to 2.

You'll also notice that both Stand and Fire and Flee! are both listed as a "reaction" where Hold is not.


This is a big change from several previous editions of warhammer where hold was a reaction.

-Matt

Tell me what this means to you.

Under the section CHARGE REACTIONS
the first BOLD entry is HOLD.

It is a charge reaction, like stand and shoot or flee. Their poor rules writing aside. I have given you ample places in the rules where it is sited as a reaction. I can't help you if you are stuck on the one place where GW failed in the book. You are probably the only person that plays it like this.

tgf wrote:
Tell me what this means to you.

Under the section CHARGE REACTIONS
the first BOLD entry is HOLD.

It is a charge reaction, like stand and shoot or flee. Their poor rules writing aside. I have given you ample places in the rules where it is sited as a reaction. I can't help you if you are stuck on the one place where GW failed in the book. You are probably the only person that plays it like this.

Read the paragraph right at the top of the page, lines 5ff

And: Matt is right. A reaction isn't a charge reaction. It's a reaction. An attack isn't a shooting attack. A charge reaction is a more specific reaction. A shooting attack is a more specific attack. A charge reaction is a reaction. A shooting attack is an attack.

Fleeing does not automatically equal a flee reaction. If you take a flee reaction, you flee. But if you flee, you do not necessarily have taken a flee reaction.

If you talk about RAW, you have to read and be very, very precise.

tgf wrote:
Tell me what this means to you.

Under the section CHARGE REACTIONS
the first BOLD entry is HOLD.

It means to me you're reading titles and bits of rules.
Seriously, read all the words. It's really clear.
It's in the section of charge reactions, because it's what happens when you don't declare a charge reaction. It's the best spot for the rule, because time wise, that's when it takes place.

Look at random movement.

Charge reactions cannot be declared against enemies with the Random Movement special rule - the enemy find it impossible to recognise the danger until it is far too late!

If you were correct, the game would break if hold was a charge reaction. The abomination hits an enemy unit, can it cannot stand and shoot, flee or hold. What happens?
This is why "Hold" is not a charge reaction, it's what happens when you don't react.

-Matt

Just leaving this here to end this once and for all with the best proof anyone could come up with. RAW. Literally. p.17, top left.

yes i have read that, the problem is, hold is a declared charge reaction is several other parts of the book including about 2 cm down from that very sentence. My question to you guys is how do you reconcile that. Is it 10 instance of GW sloppy writing or 1 instance? Hold is a charge reaction regardless of that silly sentence. It is treated like a charge reaction throughout every other rule in the game. Even the rule we are discussing says When charged a can only choose to Hold. I understand you guys interpretation but it is clearly an editing fail when you look around at all the other rules regarding charges and charge reactions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also under the There's too many of them section of the rules.

A unit might well be called upon to make
several charge reactions over the course of a
Charge sub-phase, if it is charged by several
enemy units.
A unit can only Stand and Shoot once in a
Charge sub-phase - there is no time to reload.
This is not to say that the Stand and Shoot must
be used against the first charging unit - the
chargee can opt to Hold against the first charge
and Stand and Shoot against the second charge.
It could even then elect to Flee! in reaction to a
third charge if it wished!
A unit that Flees! once in a Charge sub-phase
will have to keep fleeing if it has more charges
declared against it, as described earlier

Again several charge reactions one of them being hold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am not denying the RAWness of the sentence highlighted. I am pointing out there is a plethora of evidence in the codex that the particular statement that you are hanging onto as raw is not only an error but is in conflict with many other rules and descriptions oh how to play the game throughout the book.