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 Zheak wrote:
skyfire blasts work though

No they don't

read the FaQ.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Zheak wrote:
skyfire blasts work though

No they don't

read the FaQ.

We did. The use of the word 'therefore' indicates that blast weapons cannot be fired at them because shots against them can only be resolved as snap shots. Models/weapons with Skyfire can in fact shoot at them without resolving their their shots as snapshots. Everything after the 'therefore' then does not apply to them and the unit can go ahead and fire blast weapons at flyers and swooping FMCs... they still can't hit them due to Hard To Hit but RAW, they can shoot at them and hit ground units in the area.

It's a loop hole, obviously not RAI and personally I'd prefer if people I play didn't use it but it's there.

Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

"any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. " Is clear.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures

Sadly, this sort of absolute statement on the subject is wrong. Read the 'Hard to Hit" paragraph on p81, specifically the 2nd sentence, for the obvious exception.

Happily, I think the 3rd sentence is what you were looking for. Zooming Flyers cannot be hit by blast/template weapons. Not because of the blast rules, or the snap-fire rules or the FAQ language. Simply because the BRB says 'no'

 DeathReaper wrote:
Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

"any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. " Is clear.

That quote was grabbed out of context. If you read the full quote you can see the loophole clearly

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Ahhh... gamers and the use of language. You are saying that by using the word 'Therefore', which means 'as meaning by', that the following sentence is only supporting that you can not snap fire blast marker, template or line of effect attacks that ignore the users BS and that if someone were to have Skyfire and a weapon that had one of those three traits that they could still target and shoot the Flyer.

Yes, that would be the correct interpretation of the word 'therefore'.

But what about this? Page 81 BRB, last sentence of 'Hard to Hit' states: "Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit flyers in Zoom mode." Pretty cut and dried, no mention of snap-shots at all or Skyfire. Though note the lack of 'Line/Area of effect' mentioned here. To me, this combined with the FAQ means that even with Skyfire, you can not use weapons that use templates, blast markers, or line of effect against flyers, snap shot or otherwise with Skyfire. I feel this was the intent of the ruling, not a reinforcement of the snap fire rules and to make sure the 'line/area of effect' was added to the BRB pg 81 list. A poor use of the word 'Therefore', I agree.

Page 81 only mentions hitting not targetting

Q: If a Psyker uses a beam power on an Infantry unit in front of
him and the beam proceeds to pass over the base of a Zooming Flyer
or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, is it also hit by the attack?
(p69)
A: No.

I am going to use reverse logic here. This is a FAQ on a beam attack. Just because it went across the base of the flyer, it can not hit the flyer. If your right and you can shoot a weapon like this at a flyer, even though you can not hit it, you would not be able to hit any ground targets. If you could, then the above FAQed rule would be wrong.

Targeting a flyer with the hope of scattering and hitting targets on the ground that you otherwise can not see will not work.

foolishmortal wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures

Sadly, this sort of absolute statement on the subject is wrong. Read the 'Hard to Hit" paragraph on p81, specifically the 2nd sentence, for the obvious exception.

Happily, I think the 3rd sentence is what you were looking for. Zooming Flyers cannot be hit by blast/template weapons. Not because of the blast rules, or the snap-fire rules or the FAQ language. Simply because the BRB says 'no'

Did you miss the FaQ?

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

Emphasis mine.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Did you miss the FaQ?

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

Emphasis mine.

The underlined portion is demonstrably wrong as a blanket, absolute statement. As mentioned earlier, it is correct, in context. Please read the 2nd sentence of the rule from the BRB on p81, specifically the portion in parenthesis.

There is no contradiction here, or even much of a disagreement. You just keep saying something that is not always true is always true.

foolishmortal wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Did you miss the FaQ?

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

Emphasis mine.

The underlined portion is demonstrably wrong as a blanket, absolute statement. As mentioned earlier, it is correct, in context. Please read the 2nd sentence of the rule from the BRB on p81, specifically the portion in parenthesis.

There is no contradiction here, or even much of a disagreement. You just keep saying something that is not always true is always true.

As with any permissive ruleset, there are going to be exceptions to rules that are "always true"

Like the rule that all units are locked in combat if they have one model in base contact. This rule is "always true"

The exception being vehicles which can not be locked in combat.

The exception to the exception being Walkers. They are vehicles that can be locked in combat.

The underlined is true without specific exception, just like every other baseline rule.

You can't "hit" the flyer with the blast...and when you target a blast at a model on a specific level and scatter, the blast does NOT drop a level to compensate.

So, if you wanted to target my flyer with the blast I would say sure, but you cant actually hit it...and since the blast rules do not allow you to then move the template in the vertical plane you will not get hits on anything else either.

dkellyj wrote: So, if you wanted to target my flyer with the blast I would say sure, but you cant actually hit it...and since the blast rules do not allow you to then move the template in the vertical plane you will not get hits on anything else either.

I think you might be thinking of the rules for choosing a level of ruins for blast weapons.

Regardless, the FAQ language is fairly clear...

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

If you are tempted to say that the underlined portion applies only to the Psychic Powers listed in the question, please note that they then go out of their way to mention things like the IG Deathstrike Missile and the Necron Doomscythe.

foolishmortal wrote:

dkellyj wrote: So, if you wanted to target my flyer with the blast I would say sure, but you cant actually hit it...and since the blast rules do not allow you to then move the template in the vertical plane you will not get hits on anything else either.

I think you might be thinking of the rules for choosing a level of ruins for blast weapons.

Regardless, the FAQ language is fairly clear...

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

If you are tempted to say that the underlined portion applies only to the Psychic Powers listed in the question, please note that they then go out of their way to mention things like the IG Deathstrike Missile and the Necron Doomscythe.

The underlined works only on the premise that "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures". If that is not true for a weapon/model (such as a weapon/model with skyfire) then anything derived solely from it is also untrue for that weapon/model (such as everything after the 'Therefore' in that statement). I would agree on RAI as they create a general idea in this case and others that if you cannot hit something you cannot target it but such a blanket rule is never outright stated and cannot be assumed for an RAW discussion.

I'm not 100% sure what you are trying to state, and I don't want to put words into your mouth. You seem to be arguing that the underlined text does not apply to models/units with Skyfire or some other rule specifically granting them the ability to roll at full BS.

I would find that interpretation more understandable if the next sentence did not list a flyer as the 1st example.

foolishmortal wrote:
I'm not 100% sure what you are trying to state, and I don't want to put words into your mouth. You seem to be arguing that the underlined text does not apply to models/units with Skyfire or some other rule specifically granting them the ability to roll at full BS.

I would find that interpretation more understandable if the next sentence did not list a flyer as the 1st example.

Admittedly not very familiar with Necron units but as I understand it the Death Ray does not target any units at all... ever.

 Abandon wrote:
Admittedly not very familiar with Necron units but as I understand it the Death Ray does not target any units at all... ever.

Correct, but the DoomScythe does. Read the Death Ray rule on p50.

Also,

Q: Can a Doom Scythe’s death ray hit enemy Flyers and/or Flying
Monstrous Creatures? (p50)
A: The Death Ray can hit Flyers in Hover Mode (friendly or
enemy) and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures (friendly or
enemy). It cannot hit Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creatures.

foolishmortal wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Admittedly not very familiar with Necron units but as I understand it the Death Ray does not target any units at all... ever.

Correct, but the DoomScythe does. Read the Death Ray rule on p50.

Also,

Q: Can a Doom Scythe’s death ray hit enemy Flyers and/or Flying
Monstrous Creatures? (p50)
A: The Death Ray can hit Flyers in Hover Mode (friendly or
enemy) and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures (friendly or
enemy). It cannot hit Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creatures.

Well we are not talking about hitting a zooming flyer or swooping FMC, we are discussing only targeting them and the example given does not target units at all. If GW intended this as an example of something that cannot target a Zooming Flyer/SFMC I further postulate that GW has no idea what they're talking about in their FAQ answer.

Everyone is ignoring the fact that the FAQ means skyfire weapons cannot hit zooming flyers.

Taow wrote:
Everyone is ignoring the fact that the FAQ means skyfire weapons cannot hit zooming flyers.

If you're going to skip reading the thread at least read the subject.

No, read my reply. Your quad gun can't hit flyers. The argument has been taken far out off context of the original question in the name of "BUT THE RULEZ SAY THIZ", so read the rules that are actually written there and think about them objectively. Figure out how they work in normal cases, then worry about special cases.

The whole point being some rules are just poorly written and clinging desperately to RAW loopholes sets you up for return abuse.

Taow wrote:
No, read my reply. Your quad gun can't hit flyers. The argument has been taken far out off context of the original question in the name of "BUT THE RULEZ SAY THIZ", so read the rules that are actually written there and think about them objectively. Figure out how they work in normal cases, then worry about special cases.

The whole point being some rules are just poorly written and clinging desperately to RAW loopholes sets you up for return abuse.

The underlined it is not true at all. Even non Skyfire weapons, as long as they are not blast or template weapons, can hit flyers, but they can only hit them by using the snapshot rules.

Skyfire has a specific exception to the Hard to hit rules so it takes precedence.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Taow wrote:
No, read my reply. Your quad gun can't hit flyers. The argument has been taken far out off context of the original question in the name of "BUT THE RULEZ SAY THIZ", so read the rules that are actually written there and think about them objectively. Figure out how they work in normal cases, then worry about special cases.

The whole point being some rules are just poorly written and clinging desperately to RAW loopholes sets you up for return abuse.

The underlined it is not true at all. Even non Skyfire weapons, as long as they are not blast or template weapons, can hit flyers, but they can only hit them by using the snapshot rules.

Skyfire has a specific exception to the Hard to hit rules so it takes precedence.

Right.

Per FAQ-
Can only be hit by snapshots. Therefore cannot be targeted by blasts.

In case of skyfire given the wording of the FAQ-
Can be hit without snapshots. Therefore can be targeted by blasts.

Except for the rules that state that Blasts can not hit Zooming Flyers.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except for the rules that state that Blasts can not hit Zooming Flyers.

Because they can only hit them with snap shots...

There are two rules in affect - Flyers can only be hit by Snap Shots. Blasts and Templates cannot hit Flyers.

Skyfire only overrides one of these.

 Happyjew wrote:
There are two rules in affect - Flyers can only be hit by Snap Shots. Blasts and Templates cannot hit Flyers.

Skyfire only overrides one of these.

Not arguing that they cannot hit them, just that they can target them with skyfire.

 Abandon wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There are two rules in affect - Flyers can only be hit by Snap Shots. Blasts and Templates cannot hit Flyers.

Skyfire only overrides one of these.

Not arguing that they cannot hit them, just that they can target them with skyfire.

Which would do what? On direct hit the flyer can't be hit, and on a scatter (unless it is a skimmer) the unit hit can't be affected as the blast was not fired as a snap shot.

You could then target a flyer with the searchlight to allow other units to target it from a longer range.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There are two rules in affect - Flyers can only be hit by Snap Shots. Blasts and Templates cannot hit Flyers.

Skyfire only overrides one of these.

Not arguing that they cannot hit them, just that they can target them with skyfire.

Which would do what? On direct hit the flyer can't be hit, and on a scatter (unless it is a skimmer) the unit hit can't be affected as the blast was not fired as a snap shot.

Well I would not attempt such shenanigans but one could do so trying to hit nearby ground units they could not directly target for some reason. It is detailed earlier in the thread.