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Any thought on the new codex on this new rule?

I think it gives us chaos player a lot of disadvantages when charging an single unit like the c'tan or nids character.
We lose all the +1 on the normal guys. Because the champion has to always issue a challenge.

Its a little frustrating. :/

There are plenty of thoughts on the new rule and they were all hashed out when the CSM codex came out.

It's a big disadvantage, but one we have to live with. Use your Sergeants to challenge enemy ICs while an attached beatstick lord goes ham on the unit. For me, i'm just not kitting my Sarges out any more for melee. I give em a combi-bolter/plasma/melta and maybe a melta bomb. If I plan on facing a lot of Xenos armies i'll sometimes go with a Maul if I am feeling frisky. That's for basic CSM.

For the cult troops it's a bit less of a disadvantage. The Khorne Berserk and the Plague Marine Sarge will have a good chance of damaging anything they're challenging. Minus MCs, Wraithlords, etc. Give a Plague a fist or axe as it's already swinging at Init 3.

There's plenty of stuff on the forum about this already. Hell, I even posted a thread a small while back about this exact thing.

Yeah. I have read threads about them too. It is just frustrating when we have such awesome CC ability and have to waste it on a charge becausse our champion has to challenge at all times. I guess there is just no way I can kill a c'tan in a close combat. Only way is to shoot it to death then.

There are ways around this, some are based on luck though. If you 2" coherancy your unit out, and get a meh charge distance, you can make it so he's unable to declare a challenge. This way you're unit can fight with its charge bonus. Next round of combat the champion will be within range though.

 Goat wrote:
There are ways around this, some are based on luck though. If you 2" coherancy your unit out, and get a meh charge distance, you can make it so he's unable to declare a challenge. This way you're unit can fight with its charge bonus. Next round of combat the champion will be within range though.

But that way I'd have less guys that get into combat in a way? Unless I put my champion way back.

 Goat wrote:
There are ways around this, some are based on luck though. If you 2" coherancy your unit out, and get a meh charge distance, you can make it so he's unable to declare a challenge. This way you're unit can fight with its charge bonus. Next round of combat the champion will be within range though.

Problem here is you also risk getting less unit members in CC range as well due to the daisy chain, so your really not gaining the bonus attacks if even one or two members are left out. Best strategy is to kit everyone out for shooting and just use challenges to save the unit from more damage. I mean even IC get screwed from this stupid rule, a lord with MoK charging a horde of guardsmen has to waste all his bonus attacks on a single T3 model. It's best to remember that 6th is yet even more of a shooting edition then 5th and avoid sinking points into CC.

How to use it to your advantage: Charge a unit with a lone Beatstick character, kill one sarge. He'll pass that -1 check, then next turn murder the squad and break him at -4 or 5, then hit a new unit. You can "squad hop" pretty decently with this method if you have a juggerlord or something. Put him in spawn/bikes, get close then break off to each hit a unit. Just make sure the Juggerlord hits a unit with an odd number of characters in it.

 jifel wrote:
How to use it to your advantage: Charge a unit with a lone Beatstick character, kill one sarge. He'll pass that -1 check, then next turn murder the squad and break him at -4 or 5, then hit a new unit. You can "squad hop" pretty decently with this method if you have a juggerlord or something. Put him in spawn/bikes, get close then break off to each hit a unit. Just make sure the Juggerlord hits a unit with an odd number of characters in it.

the enemy does not have to accept. So if you charge alone, you get hit with overwatch alone and then if the other guy wants he can decline your forced challenge and get wiped to allow him to shoot you in his next turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kissmymom wrote:
Any thought on the new codex on this new rule?

I think it gives us chaos player a lot of disadvantages when charging an single unit like the c'tan or nids character.
We lose all the +1 on the normal guys. Because the champion has to always issue a challenge.

Its a little frustrating. :/

It's a huge disadvantage that while cinematic kind of ruins things for CSM players.

I like to model my champions with lightning claw and combi-weapon but I almost never actually field them that way. Most of the time they are just a 10 point tax on each of my units waiting to die.

Unless it is the character that is running with your sorc/chaos lord(in which case they become important) the whole aspiring champion mechanic is a waste.

Just walk him in front and let him take the first bullet or cult troops. This way they can't hide scary things like hive tyrants and dread knights utilizing the idiotic challenge rules.

If he declines then you deal free hits if its single or 1 guy can't hit you.
Also it can work well in scenario like this.
Typhus with 20 plague zombies charge at 20 orks with klawnob.
Situation A.
Klawnob challenges zombies boss zombie boss dies and Typhus with zombies butcher orks freely.
Klawnob returns to fight at he swings with Typhus and plague zombies. Dies.
Situation B.
He declines and unit get butchered like in situation B.

Broly33 wrote:
If he declines then you deal free hits if its single or 1 guy can't hit you.
Also it can work well in scenario like this.
Typhus with 20 plague zombies charge at 20 orks with klawnob.
Situation A.
Klawnob challenges zombies boss zombie boss dies and Typhus with zombies butcher orks freely.
Klawnob returns to fight at he swings with Typhus and plague zombies. Dies.
Situation B.
He declines and unit get butchered like in situation B.

A 320 point unit clobbers a 175 point unit? You dont say.
Even so those 20 orks get 40 overwatch shots(4 dead zombies) followed by 40(a few less because of the zombines, 4 dead orks, so 32) attacks another 7 dead zombies before typhus can even strike. Typhus then can kill 4-5 orks. The nob kills the zombie champ.
At this point there are 11 orkz and the nob vs 8 cultists and typhus.
Second round:
Zombies kill 1 ork. 10 orks kill 4-5 more cultists and then Typhus kills the nob.
At this point there are 3-4 cultist and typhus vs 10 orks.
Third turn:
The 10 orks kill the remaining cultists and then lose half their number to Typhus, but they still might not break.
Forth turn:
Orks probably fail to do anything and then Typhus cuts them down.

Four turns, with an almost 2:1 point advantage and you guaranteeing the charge. Also it is a troop and a special character HQ vs a single troop unit. That isnt a solution I would want.

What happens when you put a Warboss in the unit with the boyz and the nob(equal slot and points). Typhus does not like str10 at all. Then what happens if you dont give either side the charge, for fairness.
First turn:
cultist champion challenges and dies while the orks and the warboss kill most of the cultists. Typhus kills some orkz
Second Turn:
The nob is fed to typhus while the orkz and the warboss kill the rest of the cultist
Third Turn:
Tyhpus ends up in a challenge with the warboss, only the warboss has rerolls from the ork boys standing around. Both probably kill each other, but the warboss has the edge on surviving. Either way the boyz are probably still around.



Depending on placement and typhus's special power and other psykic power(the orkz can shoot, and would shoot), he could do more damage but it still isnt looking great.

It's just example of how you can stop Mr. hidden powerfist. Also arent zombies ment to die? eventually typhus can blow everyone.

The rule really isn't a big deal just play smart and avoid these types if situations. You should have other things in the army to deal with the threats mentioned anyway.

It can be even used to our advantage. That Belial with Hammer is threating your Terminators? Why no Insta kill him with chaos lord? Or take 4-5 hits on single termi with chances to instagib him.

I expect Space Wolves will get saddled with this rule as well when they get their update, but I don't really mind all that much since I almost always challenge anyway.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I expect Space Wolves will get saddled with this rule as well when they get their update, but I don't really mind all that much since I almost always challenge anyway.

I doubt it to be honest. This was basically a way to justify that wonky boon table resurfacing, I really see no reason why SW would gain this rule, viking don't challenge, they simply knock everyones heads together

I doubt it to be honest. This was basically a way to justify that wonky boon table resurfacing, I really see no reason why SW would gain this rule, viking don't challenge, they simply knock everyones heads together

Exactly. It was just a really hamfisted way to shoehorn that stupid Boon Table into the codex. I think it's really telling that on the Chaos Demons side, only some of the Khorne Demons have anything even similar to it. If they were going to repeat that trait in any way I think it would have been with the Demons and they didn't do it. So yeah, I'm guessing CSM are going to be the only book this edition with a USR that penalizes them for actually using the book. lol

Tycho wrote:

I doubt it to be honest. This was basically a way to justify that wonky boon table resurfacing, I really see no reason why SW would gain this rule, viking don't challenge, they simply knock everyones heads together

Exactly. It was just a really hamfisted way to shoehorn that stupid Boon Table into the codex. I think it's really telling that on the Chaos Demons side, only some of the Khorne Demons have anything even similar to it. If they were going to repeat that trait in any way I think it would have been with the Demons and they didn't do it. So yeah, I'm guessing CSM are going to be the only book this edition with a USR that penalizes them for actually using the book. lol

It is a terrible mechanic and I hope GW realizes it. It penalizes the CSM player and makes the game less fun for him with only a very small random chance benefit that requires too much book keeping.

It's the reason I run naked or melta bomb champions.

 minigun762 wrote:
It's the reason I run naked or melta bomb champions.

It's the reason I run my CSM as SW.

 Exergy wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
It's the reason I run naked or melta bomb champions.

It's the reason I run my CSM as SW.

LOL exactly. It took all but 5 minutes for me to realize i was still better off using wolves as my KB army considering a TW Lord still plays with a jugger lord like hes the red headed step child of the family.

Fitting that Orks are brought up in this thread quite a bit.

I play against Nids a lot, and challenges are just complete bullcrap in my opinion. All the Monstrous Creatures are characters, so he can simply challenge the Nob in my unit to make him no threat. The Challenge rule completely take the wind out of the Orks' sails in assault. I can't think of a single instance as Orks when I'd WANT to issue a challenge. Maybe if I had a Warboss and I was fighting a squishy HQ. Other than that, it's always a negative.

This is one of the reasons I was pondering picking up a second 40k army recently, and I've been giving Chaos a long, hard look.

However, I'll still be playing against Nids somewhat frequently, and the Challenge rules are still going to annoy the crap out of me as Chaos.

The more I play 6th Edition the more I think Challenges should have been scrapped from the rulebook entirely. I just hate them.

 Exergy wrote:

Tycho wrote:

I doubt it to be honest. This was basically a way to justify that wonky boon table resurfacing, I really see no reason why SW would gain this rule, viking don't challenge, they simply knock everyones heads together

Exactly. It was just a really hamfisted way to shoehorn that stupid Boon Table into the codex. I think it's really telling that on the Chaos Demons side, only some of the Khorne Demons have anything even similar to it. If they were going to repeat that trait in any way I think it would have been with the Demons and they didn't do it. So yeah, I'm guessing CSM are going to be the only book this edition with a USR that penalizes them for actually using the book. lol

It is a terrible mechanic and I hope GW realizes it. It penalizes the CSM player and makes the game less fun for him with only a very small random chance benefit that requires too much book keeping.

Beyond even the random benefit it is sometimes a random penalty. Both the Spawn and Daemon Prince Rolls are just plain bad, plenty of the other rolls are crap as well.

If they wanted to make this work they should do the following.

1.) Forcing a challange is already a negative, diminish the spawn result to just 1 roll (say an 11). Also let ICs re-roll/be immune this result (it really sucks when you spend a bunch of points into a CC monster to have him kill one character and essentially die.).

1a.)Alternatively allow not challanging to be an option but force a roll on a negative result table (i.e. you can not challange but if you do roll a D6 1.) Die out right 2.) become a spawn 3.) Lose a wound with no saves, 4+ you are ok)

2.) Make all results (except spawn or nothing if you keep it) good. Allow characters that turn into daemon princes to keep their wargear, modified version of wargear, gifts and psychic powers. I.e. if your level 3 Nurgle Sorcerer on a bike becomes a price he gets wings (to replace the bike, or maybe moves as a beast or something, and have jump pack be wings), he still has his three powers, is +1 Tougness, has a 3+ save and a force weapon (as well as now being a Daemon of Nurgle). Also make it so that you do not become unengaged when this happens, if my character is killing your guys, why does he stand around when he changes, often resulting in him dying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Murrdox wrote:
Fitting that Orks are brought up in this thread quite a bit.

I play against Nids a lot, and challenges are just complete bullcrap in my opinion. All the Monstrous Creatures are characters, so he can simply challenge the Nob in my unit to make him no threat. The Challenge rule completely take the wind out of the Orks' sails in assault. I can't think of a single instance as Orks when I'd WANT to issue a challenge. Maybe if I had a Warboss and I was fighting a squishy HQ. Other than that, it's always a negative.

This is one of the reasons I was pondering picking up a second 40k army recently, and I've been giving Chaos a long, hard look.

However, I'll still be playing against Nids somewhat frequently, and the Challenge rules are still going to annoy the crap out of me as Chaos.

The more I play 6th Edition the more I think Challenges should have been scrapped from the rulebook entirely. I just hate them.

I agree with MCs, they should not be characters/should not be able to challange unless other models are in the combat on their side. Otherwise it is too easy to have them run in and beat your character to death while the other guys just stand around.

Y'know, in some ways the Champion of Chaos rule can turn out to be an advantage.

With the kind of players I have around, it forces the enemy to pretty much gimp their heavily armed and armoured character by having him face one of mine (and believe me, my army is scary in CC).

Breng77 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Tycho wrote:

I doubt it to be honest. This was basically a way to justify that wonky boon table resurfacing, I really see no reason why SW would gain this rule, viking don't challenge, they simply knock everyones heads together

Exactly. It was just a really hamfisted way to shoehorn that stupid Boon Table into the codex. I think it's really telling that on the Chaos Demons side, only some of the Khorne Demons have anything even similar to it. If they were going to repeat that trait in any way I think it would have been with the Demons and they didn't do it. So yeah, I'm guessing CSM are going to be the only book this edition with a USR that penalizes them for actually using the book. lol

It is a terrible mechanic and I hope GW realizes it. It penalizes the CSM player and makes the game less fun for him with only a very small random chance benefit that requires too much book keeping.

Beyond even the random benefit it is sometimes a random penalty. Both the Spawn and Daemon Prince Rolls are just plain bad, plenty of the other rolls are crap as well.
If they wanted to make this work they should do the following.
1.) Forcing a challange is already a negative, diminish the spawn result to just 1 roll (say an 11). Also let ICs re-roll/be immune this result (it really sucks when you spend a bunch of points into a CC monster to have him kill one character and essentially die.).
1a.)Alternatively allow not challanging to be an option but force a roll on a negative result table (i.e. you can not challange but if you do roll a D6 1.) Die out right 2.) become a spawn 3.) Lose a wound with no saves, 4+ you are ok)
2.) Make all results (except spawn or nothing if you keep it) good. Allow characters that turn into daemon princes to keep their wargear, modified version of wargear, gifts and psychic powers. I.e. if your level 3 Nurgle Sorcerer on a bike becomes a price he gets wings (to replace the bike, or maybe moves as a beast or something, and have jump pack be wings), he still has his three powers, is +1 Tougness, has a 3+ save and a force weapon (as well as now being a Daemon of Nurgle). Also make it so that you do not become unengaged when this happens, if my character is killing your guys, why does he stand around when he changes, often resulting in him dying.

IMHO the easiest change would have been to make aspirining champions free. Squad of CSM costs 65 points, 5 guys 13ppm. Cultists cost 40 points, 10 guys 4ppm. Chaos leads itself to always have champions, so you are forced to take them, but they are head strong and are forced to challenge.

I would like to see DA or Wargear let you add +1 to the second die.
Killing an IC would add +1 to the first die
Killing the enemy warlord would add +1 to the first or second die.

Having a more powerful character decline in favor of a less powerful one might lead to a negative on the boon roll.

Basically it should be 1 table, and good at the top, bad at the bottom with simple modifiers. Using the rerolling mechanic to often is silly.
The table should also be a little better. +1 BS is uber weak.

Optional Champions makes more sense than DA's option Vet Sergeant.

 minigun762 wrote:
Optional Champions makes more sense than DA's option Vet Sergeant.

DA still have to take regular Sgts who are characters.

 Selym wrote:
Y'know, in some ways the Champion of Chaos rule can turn out to be an advantage.

With the kind of players I have around, it forces the enemy to pretty much gimp their heavily armed and armoured character by having him face one of mine (and believe me, my army is scary in CC).

I think it's telling that the only advantage getting explicitly stated is either; A: Not an advantage, because you could do it without the rule. Or B: Only an advantage because you aren't the one with the rule. So it's an advantage for you because your opponent has it.

So basically everyone saying that it has an advantage is actually saying that's it's of no benefit or is an active detriment.

Chrysis wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Y'know, in some ways the Champion of Chaos rule can turn out to be an advantage.

With the kind of players I have around, it forces the enemy to pretty much gimp their heavily armed and armoured character by having him face one of mine (and believe me, my army is scary in CC).

I think it's telling that the only advantage getting explicitly stated is either; A: Not an advantage, because you could do it without the rule. Or B: Only an advantage because you aren't the one with the rule. So it's an advantage for you because your opponent has it.

So basically everyone saying that it has an advantage is actually saying that's it's of no benefit or is an active detriment.

True.

 Wilytank wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Optional Champions makes more sense than DA's option Vet Sergeant.

DA still have to take regular Sgts who are characters.

Yeah but they are free. You're not forced to pay a tax on them.