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No you don't. The linked thread has nothing to do with the actual structural problems in the challenge system. A model doesn't become engaged until its initiative step, and challenges happen before all initiative steps. Therefore no models are engaged when it's time to challenge, therefore nobody can ever issue or accept a challenge. Find a thread that addresses this problem, and you'll find something actually useful on the matter.

On an on-topic note, I forgot to add in send in the next wave conscripts. They're a scoring unit that when you shoot at them, they pop back up to full strength, and get to teleport anywhere in your deployment zone.

If only they had any killing power...

Eldar Jetbikes...
3+ armour, 5+ jink, 12 inch move +36 inch turbo boost

In terms of actually getting to objectives anywhere on the board at a moment's notice, Eldar Jetbikes are excellent. Then you've got the Jink Save, and the 3+ armour save to protect from incoming fire, and potentially re-rolling leadership from an Embolden Warlock.

The best part of the squad is that their mobility is not contingent on a transport.

They aren't great general combat units, but they really do win games. An excellent unit which does everything you want from a troop- get objectives.

1.Tervigon
2.grey hunters
3.Guardsmen
4.Ork boyz
5. DE warriors

I dont think a tervigon should be included since it requires an unlock unit.

 Ailaros wrote:
No you don't. The linked thread has nothing to do with the actual structural problems in the challenge system. A model doesn't become engaged until its initiative step, and challenges happen before all initiative steps. Therefore no models are engaged when it's time to challenge, therefore nobody can ever issue or accept a challenge. Find a thread that addresses this problem, and you'll find something actually useful on the matter.

And, again, you are the only person who agrees with you AND your interpretation is blatantly against how any sane person can see that GW will rule it if/when they give an official FAQ for it. Since nobody is ever going to agree with you to play it that way just stop wasting everyone's time arguing about it.

On an on-topic note, I forgot to add in send in the next wave conscripts. They're a scoring unit that when you shoot at them, they pop back up to full strength, and get to teleport anywhere in your deployment zone.

Don't forget that:

1) If you remove them you have to wait a full turn with them off the table and not on an objective. Since they're not an offensive threat at all it's unlikely that they'll be taking any meaningful damage until late in the game when removing them to respawn probably means giving up their objective and having them come back too late.

2) SITNW is not cheap. You're paying the equivalent of 20 more conscripts and/or an entire infantry squad with heavy and special weapon, on top of the cost of Chenkov. You have to respawn the conscripts multiple times to get it to pay off compared to just having more troops, and that's not going to happen all that often (see previous comment about zero offensive threat and not respawning until late in the game).

3) It's unclear whether or not SITNW gives you a respawn if the unit is wiped out entirely (since the UNIT is not removed from play to meet the condition on SITNW), or if you have to voluntarily remove it from play to get the respawn. If it's the former then conscripts are awful, your opponent can kill the whole unit at once and make your 75+ points a complete waste.

How can Necron Immortals not be higher in the list, if not completely forgotten ?
They have MEQ stats, apart from lacking ATSKNF and Initiative:2. For an opponent they are extraordinary hard to deal with : 3+ / 5++ thanks to reanimation protocols, boostables from krypteks or lords, and on top of that, they have the very best base gun in the game. Gauss rifles at STR 5 AP4 wreaks havoc on any infantry (especially non-MEQ) or any vehicle. They are not particularly expensive for all that goodness.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
How can Necron Immortals not be higher in the list, if not completely forgotten ?
They have MEQ stats, apart from lacking ATSKNF and Initiative:2. For an opponent they are extraordinary hard to deal with : 3+ / 5++ thanks to reanimation protocols, boostables from krypteks or lords, and on top of that, they have the very best base gun in the game. Gauss rifles at STR 5 AP4 wreaks havoc on any infantry (especially non-MEQ) or any vehicle. They are not particularly expensive for all that goodness.

Maybe im misreading or dont know the rules fully for necrons, but I thought gauss rifles were str 4 ap 5 with gauss and tesla was str 5 ap - with the tesla rule. It seems like youre combining the two guns.


Edit: nevermind, just found out immortals have str 5 gauss guns. Did not know that

Oh, yeah. And they can take nightscythes as transports as well.

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh, yeah. And they can take nightscythes as transports as well.

But, as you've said many times before, flyers arrive late, leave early, never get to claim or contest objective, and are just plain worse than bringing ground units and winning the objective game. So why should the ability to take a Night Scythe (which, according to you, is a bad unit) be considered a good thing?

Or are you going to finally admit that your anti-flyer argument is just a dishonest attempt to get people to stop playing IG flyerspam?

MarsNZ wrote:

For troops I love my CSM, I can take up to 20, make them fearless (for the same price as if there were 5, or 10) take a whole bunch of weapon options and even add toughness, initiative, attacks or save depending on my mood. Not the best in game but certainly a better choice than a standard C:SM Tac.

Not to mention, if you do add those little extras, you gain access to Feel No Pain or Rerolling charges and Furious Charge or Soul Blaze bolt weapons or Causing Fear as well.

I am a CSM player and I just think not having ATSKNF and combat squad for being 1pt cheaper is not justifiable. I have to pay for an Icon of Vengeance to give them fearless which is half as good as ATSKNF. Sure I can take 20 csm, but I have no vehicles to transport them. If I had some form of combat squad, I would take 20 csm, split them into 2 groups of 10 and put them in rhinos. Even if I take 20 csm, I can only take 1 heavy and 1 spec or 2 special weapons. So what you cant take double special weapons? When you have 2 tac squads with a heavy and spec on each and you combat squad them then you still have 2 heavy and 2 special weapons. The major benefit is that you can now shoot at 4 different targets from having 4 squads.

The previous CSM had 1 more LD, came with ccw, did not have to take a serg.

Now, cultist vs guardsmen. Guardsman>Cultist even if the cultist are cheaper. Guardsman have carapace armor, get las gun and pistol. Can take melta, plasma, missles, hb, autocannons. And they can be divided into platoons. I wish cultist can be taken in groups of 40 and then be split into 2 squads of 20 at least.

So will there be another thread about the best unlocked troops choices?

If Plague Marines were in this poll, where would they place?
If Plague Marines were in a separate poll among unlocked troops then what would their ranking be?

Why are Grey Hunters top tier? Are they really that good? I think they're overpriced for what they can do.

 spacewolf407 wrote:
Why are Grey Hunters top tier? Are they really that good? I think they're overpriced for what they can do.

That's the most insane thing I've heard on Dakka Dakka for some time.

 spacewolf407 wrote:
Why are Grey Hunters top tier? Are they really that good? I think they're overpriced for what they can do.

Cheap and efficient, two special weapons in a 10-man squad, pistol + CCW + counter-attack so that your shooting unit is still reasonable effective against everything but dedicated assault units.

lol.

Someone thinks GH are overpriced? I'd like to hear an argument.

Blobs are bad? 5-point Guardsmen are too pricey?..

Jeez. Ailaros must know a lot more about competitive 40k than most of us.

No, I just know that after playing foot guard for a few dozen games in 6th edition that I regularly lost all, or nearly all of my infantry, and that was with 100+ models, which rather confirms what was immediately obvious when I read the changes 6th ed made to by unit cover and wound allocation.

Come up against a few proper anti-horde weapons, and guard infantry just disintegrate. Spending hundreds and hundreds of points on them doesn't seriously change this fact.

With the release of IA:12, DKoK Grenadiers are worth a spot on this list finally. WS4 Troops choice Stormtroopers that ignore 25% casualty morale tests and only cost 120pts? They're sweet (though lacking in options).

 spacewolf407 wrote:
Why are Grey Hunters top tier? Are they really that good? I think they're overpriced for what they can do.

They get a CCW and Counterattack, along with (if they choose to buy one) heavily discounted sergeant equivalents with likewise discounted wargear and cost less per model than TAC equivalents and equivalently equipped CSM units? They're great. Can match equivalents for shooting and outfight them in any situation, and are cheaper.

 spacewolf407 wrote:
Why are Grey Hunters top tier? Are they really that good? I think they're overpriced for what they can do.

Run your Grey Hunters as Vanilla TACs sometime, you'll see.

Ten GHs under standard can take a charge from Wraiths and win (assuming no DLord), with no disadvantage to their shooting when compared to a TAC squad (in fact, I'd argue that GH shooting is better for a Troops unit, no snap firing heavy). It's ridiculous how good Grey Hunters are, good shooting, good assault, great counter assault, and scoring? I think there are better Troop choices, but they take advantage of FOC shifts, or ICs...GHs can dominate a game running by themselves.

All that AND they hav ATSKNF....

...that's pronounced aah-tisk-nif

I can only argue the units that I've seen played, and the units that I've used. I've chosen to rank some (not all) of the selections that aren't people's first thought when they think of an army.

1. Space Marine Tactical Squad. Great options, great stat line. Awesome survivability for a troops choice. Unless the situation is dire, they are always my first go-to unit selection. Simply awesome sauce.
2. Grey Knights terminators. Terminators for a troops choice is disgusting. That being said, it's my kind of disgusting.
3. Wraith Guard. They may be clunky, but with a well planned Warlock they can seriously wreck face, especially in smaller games.
4. Necron Warriors. They almost tied with the Wraith Guard. They are nearly as survivable as Space Marines. (They lack ATSKNF, which is a bigger negative in my opinion than the positive they receive from Resurrection Protocols.) The ability to hurt anything regardless of Armor or Toughness is a potent tool that cannot be understated.
5. Grey Hunters. They lack the ability to acquire Chapter Tactics, and they can't take ICs in their Drop Pods, which puts them on the outs with my play style. They're still useful, however, especially given their ability to take two special issue weapons.
6. Kroot. The ability to Infiltrate what is essentially an Autocannon (in groups of three, no less) is pretty amazing.
7. Biker Nobz. Expensive, but tough. If played correctly, it's nearly impossible to pour enough firepower into them to eliminate them before they get to where they're going.
8. Penal Legion. One of the most undervalued units in the game, in my opinion, they are pretty sweet for the points you pay for them. Especially useful as the one-troop-minimum-buy-in for an Allied Detachment, they work well as a forward 'sacrifice unit' that is cheap enough to make using them like that worthwhile, but still good enough that anything they survive to do is just icing on the cake. The ability to at least partially influence your opponent's initial tactics cannot be overlooked, and they at least partially provide an opportunity for just that.
9. Chaos Cultists. Squishy, but cheap. You don't pay much for them, but you get what you pay for.
10. Death Company. Expensive as heck, but more survivable than even your garden variety Marine, which is a big part of the reason they took number one in the first place. Their limited options and lack of flexibility with the Allies I like to use places them at the bottom of my list. Still, that should just go to show how narrow I considered this particular ranking.

Honorable Mention goes to the Rangers/Pathfinders. The question only allows for one unit per codex, but I found it really hard to choose between these guys and the Wraithguard. The upgraded version of this unit is awesome, it blows the humble Scout out of the water!

Those are just my opinions, of course, which are heaviliy influenced by my play style, and are in no way objective. That being said, I love troops! Frequently, my favorite selections come from the Troops section of the Codex.

Penal legion?

You're paying 7 points for a guardsmen that can't take any upgrades whatsoever. Their only special ability is randomly determined, and are mutually exclusive with each other (so you can't plan what their role is at all), and they synergize with basically nothing in the codex.

Anything you could possibly want them for, you can do better with infantry platoons.

They're one of the worst units in the game, much less one of the best troops choices.

 Ailaros wrote:
Penal legion?

You're paying 7 points for a guardsmen that can't take any upgrades whatsoever. Their only special ability is randomly determined, and are mutually exclusive with each other (so you can't plan what their role is at all), and they synergize with basically nothing in the codex.

Anything you could possibly want them for, you can do better with infantry platoons.

They're one of the worst units in the game, much less one of the best troops choices.

I agree penial legion suck. I'm also glad that you came around and admitted that Infantry Platoon are better.

Tervigons are the glorious master race, everyone else are dirty peasants.

 Ailaros wrote:
No, I just know that after playing foot guard for a few dozen games in 6th edition that I regularly lost all, or nearly all of my infantry, and that was with 100+ models, which rather confirms what was immediately obvious when I read the changes 6th ed made to by unit cover and wound allocation.

Come up against a few proper anti-horde weapons, and guard infantry just disintegrate. Spending hundreds and hundreds of points on them doesn't seriously change this fact.

Yes, alone as the only troops in your army they'll fold.

As allies where your main force is distracting/taking all the anti-horde fire they shine.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
No, I just know that after playing foot guard for a few dozen games in 6th edition that I regularly lost all, or nearly all of my infantry, and that was with 100+ models, which rather confirms what was immediately obvious when I read the changes 6th ed made to by unit cover and wound allocation.

Come up against a few proper anti-horde weapons, and guard infantry just disintegrate. Spending hundreds and hundreds of points on them doesn't seriously change this fact.

Yes, alone as the only troops in your army they'll fold.

As allies where your main force is distracting/taking all the anti-horde fire they shine.

Even as the main troops, that isnt quite true. What are the proper anti-horde weapons you speak of Ailaros? You both realize that Kopach's Adepticon list was mostly Guardsmen, correct? Seemed to work out pretty well to me.

 Filch wrote:
I am a CSM player and I just think not having ATSKNF and combat squad for being 1pt cheaper is not justifiable. I have to pay for an Icon of Vengeance to give them fearless which is half as good as ATSKNF. Sure I can take 20 csm, but I have no vehicles to transport them. If I had some form of combat squad, I would take 20 csm, split them into 2 groups of 10 and put them in rhinos. Even if I take 20 csm, I can only take 1 heavy and 1 spec or 2 special weapons. So what you cant take double special weapons? When you have 2 tac squads with a heavy and spec on each and you combat squad them then you still have 2 heavy and 2 special weapons. The major benefit is that you can now shoot at 4 different targets from having 4 squads. ?

The CSM can get fearless quite easily. I've been taking Fabius bile as an HQ and two 20 man CSM units. Ill attach Fabius to one squad, and use his power to make the other fearless -- giving me two fearless 20 man MEQ squads. I give each squad 2 special weapons.

It does not matter that they don't have as many special/heavy weapons as 4 TAC squads. The point is that they are cheap bodies to contest/control mid-field objectives. Its the rest of my army that does the heavy lifting for damage output. (Helldrakes and daemons)

rigeld2 wrote:Yes, alone as the only troops in your army they'll fold.

As allies where your main force is distracting/taking all the anti-horde fire they shine.

If your opponent brought anti-horde weapons, and you gave them something more worthwhile than marines (or whatever) to shoot at, that sounds like a win for your opponent, not a loss.

LValx wrote: What are the proper anti-horde weapons you speak of Ailaros? You both realize that Kopach's Adepticon list was mostly Guardsmen, correct? Seemed to work out pretty well to me.

Firstly, winning a couple of dice games doesn't say very much.

Secondly, there are TONS of things that can shred hordes with little problem. Any fast option with a template weapon like flamer stormies or interceptors, or anything with a high volume of fire like venoms or annihilation barges. Hell, the entire tau codex is an anti-horde weapon. It's really not that difficult to come up with ways to kill guardsmen. I don't know what's wrong with adepticon players, but people at my FLGS managed to figure it out in a hurry.

Lol. With proper cover Interceptors aren't killing many Guardsmen and they probably aren't going to see the table often due to the Helturkey (expensive marines aren't so hot these days). Proper spacing nets 4 hits with a flamer template. So you might kill 20 points... Nice!

You mention Anni Barges, which is hilarious, averages 5 Wounds and kills 3 Guardsmen... very efficient! Venoms? That's a joke too right? With cover they do hardly any damage.

Tau are an honest problem.

Tony winning a couple dice games against high level competition, sure let's brush it off. I'd trust those results more than I trust the advice of a player who has some wonky perceptions about the game though.

 Ailaros wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Yes, alone as the only troops in your army they'll fold.

As allies where your main force is distracting/taking all the anti-horde fire they shine.

If your opponent brought anti-horde weapons, and you gave them something more worthwhile than marines (or whatever) to shoot at, that sounds like a win for your opponent, not a loss.

Sure. Concentrate fire on that one platoon.

Thanks.

LValx wrote:Tony winning a couple dice games against high level competition, sure let's brush it off. I'd trust those results more than I trust the advice of a player who has some wonky perceptions about the game though.

really.

I suppose horde armies would be tough to beat if you dismiss those things which are good against them. I only wish the opponents around where I play did that, then I could go back to playing foot guard again.

rigeld2 wrote:Sure. Concentrate fire on that one platoon.

Thanks.

If you spend hundreds of points on a scoring unit that gets wiped off the board by some bale flamers and loses you a home objective, then you're welcome. Thank you for bringing something that costs hundreds of points and has no killing power.

Also, thanks for not bringing respawning conscripts which are way cheaper and way better at the same job.