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DukeRustfield wrote:
Experiment, you have been on auto pilot for about a month or so now. We know your opinion and you haven't typed a single new thing. We get it. You don't like the changes. If you have nothing new to add, maybe change your signature and be done with it.

I've been thinking exactly this... every time I read one of Experiment's posts I feel like THE WORLD IS ENDING, ESCAPE WHILE YOU CAN. I've read it so much that I'm starting to believe that HE aren't even really a problem for DoC, because it just can't be THAT bad.

I wonder, Experiment: how many games have you played as DoC against HE TAC lists?

 Tangent wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Experiment, you have been on auto pilot for about a month or so now. We know your opinion and you haven't typed a single new thing. We get it. You don't like the changes. If you have nothing new to add, maybe change your signature and be done with it.

I've been thinking exactly this... every time I read one of Experiment's posts I feel like THE WORLD IS ENDING, ESCAPE WHILE YOU CAN. I've read it so much that I'm starting to believe that HE aren't even really a problem for DoC, because it just can't be THAT bad.

I wonder, Experiment: how many games have you played as DoC against HE TAC lists?

I've played against a Dragon Prince bus & a couple White Lion buses. Added into the mix are 1-2 Frothearts, PG (in the WL lists), and what seems like the regular core mix of Silverhelm bus + MSU Reavers/Archers. characters have always been a Lv4 w/BoH running either Shadow or High and a supporting Lv2 w/Scroll, BSB and maybe a fighty Hero for the BotWD unit. (to bump the Lv4 into the back rank)

And one thing I find with all of those trying to defend the banner and claim it's not really that bad, is you tend to assume that every single Daemon player is running Nurgle.
Well, thanks for that, but I play Tzeentch! I hate Nurgle - both on principal and because I'm just not a fan of the models either... So sure, we Daemon players know that running either an Eppi list or our ''one list to rule them all' competitive build can play a boring chaff & run game of avoidancehammer and potentially get lucky.

So what about when you don't have such a list?
Sure, I can try and to Final Trans the unit 2-3x (which still won't kill it and thus still hasn't earned any victory points). I can take Kairos if playing a high enough pts game.

So now I'm basically forced to bring in some ambushing dogs and hope for the best... because my opponent spent 50pts on a banner.
I don't like when my army choice is pretty much forced onto me, and that's what the BotWD has done to Daemons. Bring 'X/Y/Z in your list or go home'.



And maybe I'm also pissed because I'm just sick and tired of my army being instantly hard-countered by the same author! GK's was bad enough. But now not only do Daemons get handed what is easily the worst 8th ed book in terms of its internal balance and half-arsed feel, but then immediately afterwards, we get a double kick to the junk with HE's and their 2++ banner.

But I mean... these are TAC HE lists you're playing against?

+1 Tangent and Duke Rustfield.

I feel for you Experiment, and I've said (to a lesser degree) most of what you said. I just feel like you're hijacking every post with the same response. It's like:

Q: What army should I pick? I like ogres cuz they're big and stupid and I heard HE are good now and I like their style.

Experiment: Don't pick DoC because you'll just get raped by HE. They are the worst thing since soggy bread sandwiches. If you take HE you'll just walk over the enemy without even trying. [etc]

Here's another way to look at it.
Is there any other magic item in the game that hoses 1 specific army more than the banner of the world dragon hoses daemons?

Hellheart utterly destroys my summon heavy vampires, but at least I have several other viable builds.

I think BotWD takes it for most lopsided match up.

-Matt

This just goes to show you how screwed up and unbalanced WFB is as a system.

The DOC book is only a few months old, and they release a High Elf book with an item that nerfs the whole army.

It is not surprising that WFB 8th has been written off by so many players. What a terrible ruleset.

I will stick with 40K. Daemons have several powerful TAC builds, and the game is just more interesting and fun to play in general.

Relic07 wrote:
This just goes to show you how screwed up and unbalanced WFB is as a system.

The DOC book is only a few months old, and they release a High Elf book with an item that nerfs the whole army.

It is not surprising that WFB 8th has been written off by so many players. What a terrible ruleset.

I will stick with 40K. Daemons have several powerful TAC builds, and the game is just more interesting and fun to play in general.

1 complete f***-up by 1 specific author doesn't mean the entire system auto-sucks... Just that 1 author is a complete god-damn dumb*** who has no concept what-so-ever of how to design half decent rules!
The rest of the 8th ed books are pretty damn solid overall. Sure, Tomb Kings is likely a little less powerful than the rest of the books, while Ogres & WoC can be ruthlessly rough to most everyone with the right build.

Just ignore Ward's complete and total clusterfeth between the abysmal Daemons book and the HE book that can auto hard-counter it. (I mean, this is the same idiot who wrote GK's which even made it 100% impossible for Daemons to actually deploy! )

Experiment 626 wrote:

Relic07 wrote:
This just goes to show you how screwed up and unbalanced WFB is as a system.

The DOC book is only a few months old, and they release a High Elf book with an item that nerfs the whole army.

It is not surprising that WFB 8th has been written off by so many players. What a terrible ruleset.

I will stick with 40K. Daemons have several powerful TAC builds, and the game is just more interesting and fun to play in general.

1 complete f***-up by 1 specific author doesn't mean the entire system auto-sucks... Just that 1 author is a complete god-damn dumb*** who has no concept what-so-ever of how to design half decent rules!
The rest of the 8th ed books are pretty damn solid overall. Sure, Tomb Kings is likely a little less powerful than the rest of the books, while Ogres & WoC can be ruthlessly rough to most everyone with the right build.

Just ignore Ward's complete and total clusterfeth between the abysmal Daemons book and the HE book that can auto hard-counter it. (I mean, this is the same idiot who wrote GK's which even made it 100% impossible for Daemons to actually deploy! )

I am not impressed.... IMO, Fantasy is a waste of time.

Models sure are cool though.

Relic07 wrote:
This just goes to show you how screwed up and unbalanced WFB is as a system.

The DOC book is only a few months old, and they release a High Elf book with an item that nerfs the whole army.

It is not surprising that WFB 8th has been written off by so many players. What a terrible ruleset.

I will stick with 40K. Daemons have several powerful TAC builds, and the game is just more interesting and fun to play in general.

Eh. One hard counter in an entire system shows it's the exception, not the rule. Most 40K tournaments I've seen ban things from the basic rules due to lack of balance.
In fantasy, that list seems to be a single item.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Relic07 wrote:
This just goes to show you how screwed up and unbalanced WFB is as a system.

The DOC book is only a few months old, and they release a High Elf book with an item that nerfs the whole army.

It is not surprising that WFB 8th has been written off by so many players. What a terrible ruleset.

I will stick with 40K. Daemons have several powerful TAC builds, and the game is just more interesting and fun to play in general.

Eh. One hard counter in an entire system shows it's the exception, not the rule. Most 40K tournaments I've seen ban things from the basic rules due to lack of balance.
In fantasy, that list seems to be a single item.

-Matt

What? I have never seen a single unit or model banned in 40K. WTF are you talking about?
The only exception is some tournaments allow Forgeworld and some don't. That's it.

Fantasy is a game of maneuver. 40k is a game of rolling dice. It is far less complicated simply due to the lack of facing. If they had kept the rules for facing like they had in earlier edition, it would be a whole different ball game. They did not though. They simplified the rules.

Frankly, I don't see any argument for 40k being a "deeper, more interesting system". It is list-hammer at it's simplest.

This thread though is about Daemons and fighting HE. Which shouldn't be any problem without the banner.

With the banner though, things become different.

Who thinks they can win and how? Who has battle reports? What tactics are we trying to invent?

Bitch all you want, skaven dont like the banner much either
Most decent weapons for skaven are warpstone, which makes the attacks magical.

So, that rules out the hard hitting stuff, so your left with clanrats, slaves and storms to deal with them.

 Atlantic wrote:
Fantasy is a game of maneuver. 40k is a game of rolling dice. It is far less complicated simply due to the lack of facing. If they had kept the rules for facing like they had in earlier edition, it would be a whole different ball game. They did not though. They simplified the rules.

Frankly, I don't see any argument for 40k being a "deeper, more interesting system". It is list-hammer at it's simplest.

This thread though is about Daemons and fighting HE. Which shouldn't be any problem without the banner.

With the banner though, things become different.

Who thinks they can win and how? Who has battle reports? What tactics are we trying to invent?

Oh? Maneuvering is absolutely critical in 40K. You deploy poorly or fail to properly move your units, and a good opponent will take care of the rest.
There is lot's more to 40K than list hammering. That is why there is typically an unknown that places in major events. Your comments suggest
you only have a rudimentary level of knowledge of the game. High level tournament play is extremely complex and tactical.

Fantasy = good magic phase and the game is over before it starts. Thank You, I just wiped out half your army before you get to do anything. You
can pack up your 200 models and go home.

And it is filled with crap like; my single unkillable DE Lord can tarpit your entire unit of daemons, sword masters, or whatever the whole game.

The rubbish that Fantasy is more tactical or deeper than 40K is an urban legend.

Relic07 wrote:

Oh? Maneuvering is absolutely critical in 40K. You deploy poorly or fail to properly move your units, and a good opponent will take care of the rest.
There is lot's more to 40K than list hammering. That is why there is typically an unknown that places in major events. Your comments suggest
you only have a rudimentary level of knowledge of the game. High level tournament play is extremely complex and tactical.

Fantasy = good magic phase and the game is over before it starts. Thank You, I just wiped out half your army before you get to do anything. You
can pack up your 200 models and go home.

And it is filled with crap like; my single unkillable DE Lord can tarpit your entire unit of daemons, sword masters, or whatever the whole game.

The rubbish that Fantasy is more tactical or deeper than 40K is an urban legend.

You can't say 8th ed is epic fail by then using a broken 7th edition item to prove your point.
And '6-dicing FTW!' style of play only works against very specific opponents. (ie: Purple Sun rapes low Initiative armies, but is pretty damn useless vs elves of all flavours, WoC, non-Nurgle Daemons, etc... which is why you'll never see it used that way in a tournament.)
I can actually only think of 4 armies now that can pull a 1st turn Purple Sun bomb - High Elves, Dark Elves, Warriors & Empire. And 3 of those armies will waste their expensive Lv4 wizard to do so and leave him an easy target... (because you need either the Magic Carpet or a flying mount to get across your opponent's flank 1st turn)

If 6-dicing the #6 spells was still an instant-win as you claim, the BotWD for example would not actually be an issue for Daemons. Unfortunately, 6-dicing spells does very little good and is a bad tactic because we have only 2 so-so options, which will kill only 33% of the unit. (though Dwellers can work better if the banner is on Dragon Princes or PG)



As for dealing with "The Banner" itself, Daemons are pretty much limited to;
a) Bring an Eppi list. Nurgle marked Soul Grinders & Furies can pound on the un-protected stuff and quickly build-up the tally, then try to simply outlast it with T5 & re-rolled ward saves.
b) Bring a Regen'ing Plaugebearer bunker w/BSB, 3 units of Beasts (2x2 for chaffing + 1x4-6 for actual fighting), ambushing doggies and a pair of cannons. Ie: our typical power list.
c) Bring Kairos and get Dwellers into play, plus gain some control over the Reign of Comedy table.
d) Lv4 LoC w/Wand + Chromatic Tome, Nurgle infantry bunker, MSU Horrors for added channeling rolls and look to hit the unit with 2-3 castings of Final Trans.
e) Find a new game!

 Jackal wrote:
Bitch all you want, skaven dont like the banner much either
Most decent weapons for skaven are warpstone, which makes the attacks magical.

So, that rules out the hard hitting stuff, so your left with clanrats, slaves and storms to deal with them.

Storm Vermin do a very good job at carving up high elves. Massed S4 attacks are decent; ask phoenix guard.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relic07 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Relic07 wrote:
This just goes to show you how screwed up and unbalanced WFB is as a system.

The DOC book is only a few months old, and they release a High Elf book with an item that nerfs the whole army.

It is not surprising that WFB 8th has been written off by so many players. What a terrible ruleset.

I will stick with 40K. Daemons have several powerful TAC builds, and the game is just more interesting and fun to play in general.

Eh. One hard counter in an entire system shows it's the exception, not the rule. Most 40K tournaments I've seen ban things from the basic rules due to lack of balance.
In fantasy, that list seems to be a single item.

-Matt

What? I have never seen a single unit or model banned in 40K. WTF are you talking about?
The only exception is some tournaments allow Forgeworld and some don't. That's it.

Fortress of Redemption shows up banned pretty often, along with completely changing the rules on how terrain is set up.

-Matt

Relic07 wrote:

Oh? Maneuvering is absolutely critical in 40K. You deploy poorly or fail to properly move your units, and a good opponent will take care of the rest.
There is lot's more to 40K than list hammering. That is why there is typically an unknown that places in major events. Your comments suggest
you only have a rudimentary level of knowledge of the game. High level tournament play is extremely complex and tactical.

Fantasy = good magic phase and the game is over before it starts. Thank You, I just wiped out half your army before you get to do anything. You
can pack up your 200 models and go home.

And it is filled with crap like; my single unkillable DE Lord can tarpit your entire unit of daemons, sword masters, or whatever the whole game.

The rubbish that Fantasy is more tactical or deeper than 40K is an urban legend.

I don't mean to come off as crass, okay I do. But no one gives a crap that you like 40K more than Fantasy. This is the Fantasy subforum. It is devoted to Fantasy. You are hijacking Fantasy threads. This is not the place to talk about how you think Star Trek is better than Star Wars either. If you want to talk about 40K there are a bunch of subforums up there to do so. You are just trolling here, which is against the forum policies. So just shrug your shoulders at the idiots who like Fantasy and go on your way.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Relic07 wrote:

Oh? Maneuvering is absolutely critical in 40K. You deploy poorly or fail to properly move your units, and a good opponent will take care of the rest.
There is lot's more to 40K than list hammering. That is why there is typically an unknown that places in major events. Your comments suggest
you only have a rudimentary level of knowledge of the game. High level tournament play is extremely complex and tactical.

Fantasy = good magic phase and the game is over before it starts. Thank You, I just wiped out half your army before you get to do anything. You
can pack up your 200 models and go home.

And it is filled with crap like; my single unkillable DE Lord can tarpit your entire unit of daemons, sword masters, or whatever the whole game.

The rubbish that Fantasy is more tactical or deeper than 40K is an urban legend.

I don't mean to come off as crass, okay I do. But no one gives a crap that you like 40K more than Fantasy. This is the Fantasy subforum. It is devoted to Fantasy. You are hijacking Fantasy threads. This is not the place to talk about how you think Star Trek is better than Star Wars either. If you want to talk about 40K there are a bunch of subforums up there to do so. You are just trolling here, which is against the forum policies. So just shrug your shoulders at the idiots who like Fantasy and go on your way.

Did I strike a nerve? I would suggest blowing all of your fantasy out on Ebay and getting into 40K.
And no, I don't suggest playing both games. 40K will keep you plenty busy.

 Jackal wrote:
Bitch all you want, skaven dont like the banner much either
Most decent weapons for skaven are warpstone, which makes the attacks magical.

So, that rules out the hard hitting stuff, so your left with clanrats, slaves and storms to deal with them.

That is a good point that I had not thought too much about, which is sad being a skaven player as well. The difference though is that for skaven, the banner simply nerfs most of their "good" special weapons, but for the DoC, it literally nerfs every single attack they can make. There is no non-magical attack for the DoC player, and that is why the banner is a horrible bit of game design....


on a related note, I'm thinking that the DoC must have horribly scarred some of the people who have made rules lately.... first, 8th edition itself nerfed one of the primary "competative" builds (ie pink horror spam), then they made the pathetically weak update with the new army book, and then they give HE (already OP) this moronically designed banner that completely hoses the entire army.... Simply put, DoC are no longer even remotely viable for competative play, and in casual play, if someone pulls that banner on me, then I will simply forfiet immediatly and find another game or go home....

 caledoneus wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Bitch all you want, skaven dont like the banner much either
Most decent weapons for skaven are warpstone, which makes the attacks magical.

So, that rules out the hard hitting stuff, so your left with clanrats, slaves and storms to deal with them.

That is a good point that I had not thought too much about, which is sad being a skaven player as well. The difference though is that for skaven, the banner simply nerfs most of their "good" special weapons, but for the DoC, it literally nerfs every single attack they can make. There is no non-magical attack for the DoC player, and that is why the banner is a horrible bit of game design....


on a related note, I'm thinking that the DoC must have horribly scarred some of the people who have made rules lately.... first, 8th edition itself nerfed one of the primary "competative" builds (ie pink horror spam), then they made the pathetically weak update with the new army book, and then they give HE (already OP) this moronically designed banner that completely hoses the entire army.... Simply put, DoC are no longer even remotely viable for competative play, and in casual play, if someone pulls that banner on me, then I will simply forfiet immediatly and find another game or go home....

Ironically enough, the same author is responsible for this entire mess!

So does this mean that Ward must have touched himself in a bad place with Daemons?!

 caledoneus wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Bitch all you want, skaven dont like the banner much either
Most decent weapons for skaven are warpstone, which makes the attacks magical.

So, that rules out the hard hitting stuff, so your left with clanrats, slaves and storms to deal with them.

That is a good point that I had not thought too much about, which is sad being a skaven player as well. The difference though is that for skaven, the banner simply nerfs most of their "good" special weapons, but for the DoC, it literally nerfs every single attack they can make. There is no non-magical attack for the DoC player, and that is why the banner is a horrible bit of game design....


on a related note, I'm thinking that the DoC must have horribly scarred some of the people who have made rules lately.... first, 8th edition itself nerfed one of the primary "competative" builds (ie pink horror spam), then they made the pathetically weak update with the new army book, and then they give HE (already OP) this moronically designed banner that completely hoses the entire army.... Simply put, DoC are no longer even remotely viable for competative play, and in casual play, if someone pulls that banner on me, then I will simply forfiet immediatly and find another game or go home....

HPA does a pretty good number on banner elf units (and doomwheel regular attacks).

Better not buy the MR1 and magical attack upgrades then for the HPA.
Of course, now you're choosing between building for high elves or building for vampires.
As a vampire player, I'm very happy about this.

-Matt

I think your premise is slightly invalid...

Either the banner is good against Skaven because we have SO MUCH magic... in which case, we would obviously not buy the magical attack upgrade for HPA... in which case we don't really care that much about vampire ethereal issues..

OR

we don't have SO MUCH magic, in which case the banner isn't that big a deal, in which case we do need the magic upgrade for HPA.

Can't have it both ways! I believe the former, for what it is worth.