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Woah, threadromancy!

But aye, it's been hinted that several of the Chapters are derived from Traitor gene-seed. Sons of Antaeus are maybe Death Guard, Blood Ravens are likely Thousand Sons, Red Scorpions might be Emperor's Children, Minotaurs might be World Eaters, Silver Skulls may be Loyalist IWs who joined Guilliman during the Heresy (Barabas Dantioch etc), nobody knows about the Soul Drinks (But I think Emperor's Children), Carcharodons are probably Raven Guard but may be Night Lords. However, none of this has been outright stated afaik.

I've always fancied the idea of a Loyalist World Eaters' descendant chapter. As a matter of fact, I believe there were Loyalist WE that led a last stand against their traitor kin.

Angrier-than-the-Black-Rage Loyalist Marines clad in bright white is definitely something that appeals to me.

 797th Red Tigers wrote:
I've always fancied the idea of a Loyalist World Eaters' descendant chapter. As a matter of fact, I believe there were Loyalist WE that led a last stand against their traitor kin.

Angrier-than-the-Black-Rage Loyalist Marines clad in bright white is definitely something that appeals to me.

Yeah Captain Ehrlen and his men, They attacked Angron directly.

 797th Red Tigers wrote:
I've always fancied the idea of a Loyalist World Eaters' descendant chapter. As a matter of fact, I believe there were Loyalist WE that led a last stand against their traitor kin.

Angrier-than-the-Black-Rage Loyalist Marines clad in bright white is definitely something that appeals to me.

All traitor legions had some loyalists, and all loyalist legions had some traitors. While this makes logical enough sense (Space Marines are NOT a hive mind. Each Space Marine is an INDIVIDUAL with his own personal thoughts and beliefs), it's outright stated in the third Forge World Horus Heresy book, which even gives some examples of traitor space wolves and loyalist luna wolves, etc. Even before then, however, loyalists from traitor legions pop up here and there. World Eaters in particular had quite a few. They wouldn't have had to have been purged at Ishtvaan otherwise. One of the Knights Errant (precursors to the Grey Knights) is a loyalist Word Eater and a bunch of them show up in Battle for the Abyss as well.

As for whether or not one became a descendant chapter...well, I myself figured that they had to do SOMETHING with surviving loyalists from traitor legions. I'd like to think the Imperium wasn't jack-ass enough to outright execute them (especially considering that Garro, a Death Guard, is PUBICALLY historically called "The Hero of Ishtvaan" in-universe, proving that the Imperium acknowledged there were good traitors instead of just covering up the whole thing). However, if the Blood Ravens and Silver Skulls speculations are true and are any indication, their primarch was likely covered up, possibly for their own good.

I wouldn't mind some "pissed-off but dutiful" marines myself, although admittingly the Flesh Tearers might already fill that niche in a way (obviously they're BA successors, not WE, though). Minotaurs are described as "chimeric" gene-seed and even IF Minotaurs are (fully or partially) WE descendents, they're a little... over the top (what with all that High Lords' dogs and other mysteries around them) that might not appeal to someone who wants a more "normal" WE descendant.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Woah, threadromancy!

But aye, it's been hinted that several of the Chapters are derived from Traitor gene-seed. Sons of Antaeus are maybe Death Guard, Blood Ravens are likely Thousand Sons, Red Scorpions might be Emperor's Children, Minotaurs might be World Eaters, Silver Skulls may be Loyalist IWs who joined Guilliman during the Heresy (Barabas Dantioch etc), nobody knows about the Soul Drinks (But I think Emperor's Children), Carcharodons are probably Raven Guard but may be Night Lords. However, none of this has been outright stated afaik.

It's been a slow day.

Aside from the known theories, any new ones to propose? Flicking around dropped the notion of the Star Phantoms being of IW geneseed in my head along with maybe stockpiled Luna Wolf genestock going towards the Dark Sons.

They haven't handed down a verdict on whether such a thing as a geneseed tithe or a formal updated collection of genestock existed during the Horus Heresy, but I feel it's foolish to assume each legion was 100% responsible for their own geneseed when they weren't even 100% responsible for their wargear.

Soul drinkers.

They always thought that they were from Rogal Dorns seed, but in the last book about them, it was confirmed that they were not, and they didn't know who their primarch was.

I know this is a ush but could you say because of how huge galexy is etc

They where split off from the legion long before they turned/rot Set in, isolated from the heresy by a plot device and as such a loyal fragment of traitor legion. Maybe got stuck out on the outer fringes
Returned, his there origins and basicly did a secret deal to become a black force or semi private army for high lords, doing the missions even the IOM cannot stomach. There price for survival. Or composed of multiple loyal fragments, for a more varied culture.
Mechanicus special mission force if want high tech, inquisition influenced, basicly powerful patron protected them

My opinion, for what it's worth:
Whilst I do agree that Traitor gene-seed could/can be used to create new chapters, I think that it is an incredibly boring and clichéd way of creating your own chapter, and would tell people to avoid it like Nurgle's plagues.
Far better to leave instances like this to the GW/BL writers and have it remain a near unique occurrence than every new SM player writing up a Chapter which has inherited Traitor geneseed, but are SUPER LOYAL, effectively picking and choosing traits and removing all sense of mystery/taboo from the whole traitor genes thing: it's hardly unique if every other Chapter was descended from the Night Lords/ World Eaters/ Luna Wolves!

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I dont think the Minotaurs are descendant from any original traitor Legion geneseed. The strange gap in the records sounds more like the Imperium finishing off yet another cursed chapter from the 21st founding (I believe the M41 are different marines, which I will explain a bit later). After the Heresy traitor seed was put under stasis lock, but crucially not destroyed. This might be because they were unwilling to destroy the Emperor's work, or more likely as some measure of last resort. Yet it seems highly unlikely that they used it during the 21st founding, not really a time of great need or distress. But there has to be an explanation to this cursed founding. Then my darker take on all this. The 21st founding and perhaps others might be attempts at changing the traitor geneseed. Both of these took place in M36, the first records of the Blood Ravens start in M37. Survivors from the TS legion during the Heresy seems quite a stretch, although possible (but unlikely seeing as how their geneseed creates horrible mutations). It might just be the result of a millennium worth of research on TS and other traitor geneseed, cleaning up the 'impurities'. Leading to the founding of the Blood Ravens, which would explain the unmentioned primarch.

The 21st founding, has created some strange chapters, most notably the horrid mutations. It is also mentioned that due to unstable geneseed (unraveling genetic test codes?) they have a hard time to recruit. Of course this area is lacking in background material and my opinion fills out this theory. On the subject of the Minotaurs I believe they might have had partially/full traitor geneseed in both foundings. Now I say both foundings, because as said I believe they were purged due to the traitor element of World Eater geneseed (which might be the reason for their violent manner among even Astartes). The first time in M.36 they were too violent and the changed/'new' traitor geneseed was still too affected by the original traitors. After further research the second time the Minotaurs were less unstable (but the High Lords keep them close, seeing as what happened before). Im seeing this in line with chapters like the Blood Ravens and the cursed founding.

Well this is just my view on the subject.

From what I understood, the 21st cursed founding was due to the Mechanicus messing with the genetic coding to attempt to improve mutating Geneseed.

The fluff says specifically that the traitor geneseed was locked away and stasis sealed. So there was definitely at least some Imperium control or at least storage.

Either way, as always, it really doesn't make any sense for the AdMech to make new Chapters from traitor geneseed. This is an organization that is extremely risk-adverse. It took them 6,000 years to work up the guts to try manipulating it, and the 21st Founding failed so hard they haven't tried again. The Ultramarines represent 66%+ of Space Marine chapters not because somebody really likes blue, but because the Ultramarines geneseed is stable and supports all of the implants. Plus, they are Codex Adherent so their successors are more likely to be as well. The Codex Astartes took Space Marines from being 45% reliable to being about 98% reliable. The Imperium likes having Space Marines that don't fall to Chaos very often.

It costs a lot of time and resources to create a Space Marine chapter and equip it.

The big question that always needs to be asked is this: What's the motivation? What's the potential gain? If the AdMech won't even make new Blood Angel chapters anymore (the fluff seems to suggest the Lamenters were the last new one) because of the Black Rage, why would they make ones with Traitor geneseed?

I was not talking white knights,

More doing jobs even inquisitors consider dark, damnble stuff, or rather too close ties for general comfet to other powerful instructions.

Black as night stuff, kinda things publicly done could get you considered renegades or traitor status.

The darkest, dankest corner of the dark impirial underbelly.

Yes, but what is the point when you could have another Chapter of Marines that is:
1. More stable
2. More predictable
3. More loyal
4. Less likely to get to executed for HERESY!

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The fluff says specifically that the traitor geneseed was locked away and stasis sealed. So there was definitely at least some Imperium control or at least storage.

Either way, as always, it really doesn't make any sense for the AdMech to make new Chapters from traitor geneseed. This is an organization that is extremely risk-adverse. It took them 6,000 years to work up the guts to try manipulating it, and the 21st Founding failed so hard they haven't tried again. The Ultramarines represent 66%+ of Space Marine chapters not because somebody really likes blue, but because the Ultramarines geneseed is stable and supports all of the implants. Plus, they are Codex Adherent so their successors are more likely to be as well. The Codex Astartes took Space Marines from being 45% reliable to being about 98% reliable. The Imperium likes having Space Marines that don't fall to Chaos very often.

It costs a lot of time and resources to create a Space Marine chapter and equip it.

The big question that always needs to be asked is this: What's the motivation? What's the potential gain? If the AdMech won't even make new Blood Angel chapters anymore (the fluff seems to suggest the Lamenters were the last new one) because of the Black Rage, why would they make ones with Traitor geneseed?

Well, the Iron Warriors, Luna Wolves, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion were all extremely stable as Gene Seed goes. Hell you could even pass off loyalist Night Lords as being most certainly Raven Guard. What's that, they regained the ability to spit acid? PRAISE THE EMPEROR, IT'S CLEARLY A MIRACLE!

Of course, if it's a fringe Magos who wants to start a secret project, the Admech certainly are not above whacking anyone who learns too much.

I wouldn't expect the Imperium to use traitor gene seed under normal conditions. IIRC the fluff explcitly states that it was outlawed to use the traitor geneseed that they had in stasis stock.

So we know that they explicitly DO have traitor gene seed on stock, but they are also explicitly legally barred from using it.

It's notable that the Sons of Antaeus, who are rumoured to come from the Death Guard, come from the Cursed Founding, where the Mechanicus did all sorts of hijinks that were most likely illega. Thus, the likely in-universe explanation for why some think Death Guard gene seed was used for them is because that's a special case where all sorts of illegalities were committed. Although this isn't explicitly stated by the fluff (still, given that we know that it's officially illegal to use traitor gene seed, it makes sense that in a case where it maybe was used was a founding where all sorts of shenanigans were committed)

The same goes for the Minotaurs, who are also from the Cursed Founding (though their gene seed is described as chimeric. Again, from a founding filled with shenanigans)

Blood Ravens and Silver Skulls are possibly traitor gene seed NOT because the Imperium one day said "Hey, let's make a new space marine chapter from traitor gene seed!" but because someone said "We have these loyalist Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors who remained loyal during the Heresy. They should have their own chapter but we'll hide their primarch" (Why hide the primarch? Not known, but I can see lots of reasons why, some for the good of the Space Marine chapter itself to not have that stain and some because the Imperium wouldn't want to endorse creating new chapters from traitor gene seed)


TL;DR: All speculated cases of traitor gene seed in the fluff come from Cursed Founding chapters or from left over loyalists from the Heresy. (Except Red Scorpions. Instead they're "It's a secret.") If you're making a loyalist chapter from traitor gene seed, it'd either be left over loyalists from the Heresy or from illegal shenanigans (Cursed Founding wasn't the only time illegal shenanigans happened but it's definately the largest amount of them in a single founding)

(as for Carcharodons, I'm pretty sure they're Raven Guard. HH Book 3 practically slams that in your face with a hammer without explicitly stating it. Although even if they are Night Lords instead, they'd still fall under the "left over loyalists from the Heresy" category considering their archaic technology)

Blood Ravens aren't loyalist Thousand Sons. That's entirely fan guesswork, while at least the Silver Skulls have more solid material to go off (like their emblem being the near spittin image of the Iron Warriors).

TiamatRoar wrote:

(Except Red Scorpions. Instead they're "It's a secret.")

Why are people so against the idea that a chapter's predecessor is unknown for reasons unrelated to their founding? The Storm Wardens and the Crimson Sabres both made the decision to seal away or destroy the records pertaining to their founding. Why couldn't the Red Scorpions have done the same? Perhaps they were afflicted by a genetic assault, similar to what the Dark Eldar did to the Raven Guard and now worry that their genestocks have been compromised. this would also explain the fascination with checking for pure geneseed. Perhaps there was a falling out with their predecessor in the earliest years of their formation, and instead of holding a grudge, they simply wiped the slate clean. There are plenty of more interesting reasons beyond, "They're traitor geneseed."

jareddm wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:

(Except Red Scorpions. Instead they're "It's a secret.")

Why are people so against the idea that a chapter's predecessor is unknown for reasons unrelated to their founding? "

Ultimately it's just a cheap narrative hook to "add mystery". But the problem is, there are so many special snowflake chapters out there that it's just generic. Forgeworld is especially bad about it. It took the Fire Hawks, who had a confirmed genetic lineage and made them snowflake mysteriousssss. Heck, almost all of their favorite chapters are special snowflakes. Red Scorpions, Star Phantoms, Space Sharks, Exorcists, Minotaurs... Same with the Storm Lords. They're just Fantasy Flight Games' special snowflake mysterioussssss chapter.

Nobody's against the idea in principle. It's just silly, amateurish, and boring. Given how obsessive Space Marines seem to be about their heritage, and relics and dreadnoughts, how exactly is it that so many Chapters have somehow forgotten what their gene heritage is? It would be like you suddenly forgetting your last name just because it originated in 13th century feudal England. It would be an okay idea if it was a small handful of chapters that had extraordinary reasons to ignore their history.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

jareddm wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:

(Except Red Scorpions. Instead they're "It's a secret.")

Why are people so against the idea that a chapter's predecessor is unknown for reasons unrelated to their founding? "

Ultimately it's just a cheap narrative hook to "add mystery". But the problem is, there are so many special snowflake chapters out there that it's just generic. Forgeworld is especially bad about it. It took the Fire Hawks, who had a confirmed genetic lineage and made them snowflake mysteriousssss. Heck, almost all of their favorite chapters are special snowflakes. Red Scorpions, Star Phantoms, Space Sharks, Exorcists, Minotaurs... Same with the Storm Lords. They're just Fantasy Flight Games' special snowflake mysterioussssss chapter.

Nobody's against the idea in principle. It's just silly, amateurish, and boring. Given how obsessive Space Marines seem to be about their heritage, and relics and dreadnoughts, how exactly is it that so many Chapters have somehow forgotten what their gene heritage is? It would be like you suddenly forgetting your last name just because it originated in 13th century feudal England. It would be an okay idea if it was a small handful of chapters that had extraordinary reasons to ignore their history.

To be fair, the Imperium has stood for ten thousand years, which is longer then the entire history of modern human civilization.

How would a chapter just forget who their parent chapter is, anyway? "Oops, I just shredded our record saying we are Ultramarines descendants. Should I make a new one, Fred?". "Nah, I'm sure we'll remember simple information like that".

 TheCustomLime wrote:
How would a chapter just forget who their parent chapter is, anyway? "Oops, I just shredded our record saying we are Ultramarines descendants. Should I make a new one, Fred?". "Nah, I'm sure we'll remember simple information like that".

You say that like it was an accident. In both cases I mentioned the chapters purposefully destroyed or locked away their records. They don't want the future generations of their chapter to know because whatever happened to them was either seen as a terrible stain on the chapter's history or the history of their predecessor, perhaps something both parties wanted to forget. We live in an information age where more information is always seen as an improvement, but 40k is not an information age, and knowledge that is seen as "tainted" in any number of ways is considered best left forgotten rather than taint the future.

There's no real reason for a post 2nd Founding chapter to know its progenitor in the first place. It's not like Chapters go round swapping geneseed with eachother. It's entirely plausible for the High Lords not to tell the new chapter in order to avoid them having any kind of familial bond that might interfere with their loyalty to them. They could easily get some Adept's Sociologis and Psychologis to construct a chapter cult wherein the Primarch doesn't matter (whilst keeping it different enough from the Imperial Creed so they don't go round slavishly following the Ecclesiarch), of course over time they will serve alongside other chapters and learn about the importance of the Primarch's to the 1st & 2nd Founding's cults, at which point they might start to wonder how they 'lost' theirs when in fact they hadn't.

jareddm wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:

(Except Red Scorpions. Instead they're "It's a secret.")

Why are people so against the idea that a chapter's predecessor is unknown for reasons unrelated to their founding?

I wasn't aware that anyone was against the idea that the Red Scorpions' predecessor was unknown for reasons unrelated to their founding. If someone was, they certainly never mentioned that in this thread.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Snip

There's a loyalist WE in the GK? I had no idea. Must have missed that codex entry. Regardless, I dislike the Minotaurs for the same reason everyone else dislikes (or likes) them, that they're Lawful Stupid. By contrast, I always saw the World Eaters as a kind of paradox, which is where the most of their appeal came to me. The Flesh Tearers are direct and obvious, what with the heraldry and colouration of their armour. However, the WE are painted white and gilded in blue, a pattern typically associated with the 'Good' factions of fiction.

In short, the WE made fantastic anti-heros, and their possible descendants would almost certainly continue to do so.

jareddm wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
How would a chapter just forget who their parent chapter is, anyway? "Oops, I just shredded our record saying we are Ultramarines descendants. Should I make a new one, Fred?". "Nah, I'm sure we'll remember simple information like that".

You say that like it was an accident. In both cases I mentioned the chapters purposefully destroyed or locked away their records. They don't want the future generations of their chapter to know because whatever happened to them was either seen as a terrible stain on the chapter's history or the history of their predecessor, perhaps something both parties wanted to forget. We live in an information age where more information is always seen as an improvement, but 40k is not an information age, and knowledge that is seen as "tainted" in any number of ways is considered best left forgotten rather than taint the future.

Not so for the Spess Muhreens. They obsess over their chapter's history, deeds and figures of legend. Many Marine chapters derive a lot of their identity from who their parent chapter was and there are many examples of camaraderie between fellow descendants of the same Chapter. Ex. The Sons of Sanguinius returning to Baal to defend the Blood Angels home world from the space bugs. It would be very strange for a Marine chapter to just forget who they descended from and I wouldn't be surprised if such chapters were looked upon with a modicum of suspicion.

 jhe90 wrote:
I was not talking white knights,

More doing jobs even inquisitors consider dark, damnble stuff, or rather too close ties for general comfet to other powerful instructions.

Black as night stuff, kinda things publicly done could get you considered renegades or traitor status.

The darkest, dankest corner of the dark impirial underbelly.

There is no task that an Inquisitor of the right persuasion would consider "too dark". This is, after all, exactly what Inquisitors of Radical philosophies do. A given Inquisitor worries only about the censure of his or her fellow Inquisitors... the Inquisition, as a body, fears censure from no one.

In general we prefer it if users don't drag up old threads like this.

We'll carry on this time however.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

jareddm wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:

(Except Red Scorpions. Instead they're "It's a secret.")

Why are people so against the idea that a chapter's predecessor is unknown for reasons unrelated to their founding? "

Ultimately it's just a cheap narrative hook to "add mystery". But the problem is, there are so many special snowflake chapters out there that it's just generic. Forgeworld is especially bad about it. It took the Fire Hawks, who had a confirmed genetic lineage and made them snowflake mysteriousssss. Heck, almost all of their favorite chapters are special snowflakes. Red Scorpions, Star Phantoms, Space Sharks, Exorcists, Minotaurs... Same with the Storm Lords. They're just Fantasy Flight Games' special snowflake mysterioussssss chapter.

Nobody's against the idea in principle. It's just silly, amateurish, and boring. Given how obsessive Space Marines seem to be about their heritage, and relics and dreadnoughts, how exactly is it that so many Chapters have somehow forgotten what their gene heritage is? It would be like you suddenly forgetting your last name just because it originated in 13th century feudal England. It would be an okay idea if it was a small handful of chapters that had extraordinary reasons to ignore their history.

It can't be argued that the 40k narrative itself has devolved into a moot tangle of dead ends and amateur mistakes made to cover the blazing speed of tectonic activity that GW seems content to move at, but to directly say something at this level of intrigue that could have occurred in the short span of time following the Horus Heresy would be boring just smacks of a lack of imagination.

Saying the AdMech would never use traitor geneseed is like saying Horus will never turn. By fans saying that, it's adding fuel to an excellent founding storyline.

Minotaurs are not World Eaters. They are Iron Warriors.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Minotaurs are not World Eaters. They are Iron Warriors.

Their gene-seed is described as chimeric. They could be both.

The chapter master is pretty much Khorne as a Space Marine, though. He even spends his off-time sitting on his throne counting the blood spilled in his name.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Blood Ravens aren't loyalist Thousand Sons. That's entirely fan guesswork, while at least the Silver Skulls have more solid material to go off (like their emblem being the near spittin image of the Iron Warriors).

Are you kidding me? GW has done some seriously heavy-handed hinting, and has all but come out and said it.