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Update to my thread here;

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/523568.page

I have been paid back in full for my 2 misplaced packages, resin forge have held up to their word and I got my money back.

Please read carefully, my thread does not have anything to do with any accusations seen here. I have tried to be as clear as possible (please forgive me, english is not my first language!)

I would like to say that I am not taking any side here, I just want people to be informed of my experiences.

I am very happy to move on, it was getting hard to work on my sons of horus without having a bitter taste in my mouth, I never expected my ''HOBBY'' to be more than me relaxing and painting my little toy soldiers.

Well at least somebody has had a positive result with RF.
However, I feel its too little too late.

Midget Overlord, I'm glad to hear that Resin Forge resumed communicating with you, and that the problems were finally resolved. I'm glad you posted on Dakka to share your experience and that since then your situation has improved.

 Bloodmagic wrote:

However, I feel its too little too late.

If you lost 200$, I doubt you would think it's too late.

The way things have been going over the past 2 weeks, I didnt think I would ever get anything back.

But I did! yay for me!

 Bloodmagic wrote:
Well at least somebody has had a positive result with RF.

So far as I'm aware, nobody has so far presented any issue with orders from RF that hasn't been dealt with. I've seen two non-receipt complaints online, and both appear to have been resolved. And they have happy customers on their FB page.

Take that as you will...

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Probably not in this case since it hasn't been used to obtain money by false pretences or something like that.

It doesn't matter anyway. Yakface has no desire to involve himself in a civil action against Resin Forge.

The objective of confirming Daniel Mandelbaum as the proprietor has been achieved.

I'm just saying... the more shenaniganery he gets away with, the bolder he'll be.

Eric

There have always been very happy customers and great feedback with Daniel Mandelbaum's past enterprises. He used to have awesome eBay ratings and lots of happy customers. Heck, I was one of the happy customers during one of his other ventures before that company started being accused of no longer delivering on orders.

But there was always a tipping point when lots of people at the same time would report problems and state that they did not recieve delivery or refunds anymore. This has not happened yet with Resin Forge as far as we know and the purpose of the original warning was "Hey, nothing acute going on, but this store is owned by Daniel and here is his history. Nothing has happened yet, but we feel that people should be able to make an informed decision."

Midget: That's my point, it took you 2 weeks to get this resolved. You even stated that you thought you would get nothing back.

I am happy that you got your money back, however, and this is a big HOWEVER. It should never have gotten to that stage. If an online company cannot supply goods sold, which you in good faith have already paid for, you are entitled to a full refund. It is not good enough that your transaction dragged on so long and that you were required to constantly chase things up. It is only because of threads like this that anything was done. RF does not want any more bad publicity. (Remember they are in damage control now)

There are so many warnings about -He Who Shall Not Be Named- on multiple sites, blogs and basically anywhere google looks now, that if anyone was to deal with him/her/whatever in the future, then they are either an idiot or choose to ignore good advice.

Anyway, well done on getting your $200 back. Now head to your local GW store, say your sorry and buy a space marine with it.

I would take a step back and say that the bigger thing happening right now is how legitimate Resin Forge is. 2000+ likes on Facebook and a business model that caters to hundreds of customers is no small thing; further, despite who one of the owners is, the entire operation has not collapsed in upon itself yet.

Resin Forge seems to be a self sustaining operation that won't disappear too soon.

 WarOne wrote:
I would take a step back and say that the bigger thing happening right now is how legitimate Resin Forge is. 2000+ likes on Facebook and a business model that caters to hundreds of customers is no small thing; further, despite who one of the owners is, the entire operation has not collapsed in upon itself yet.

Resin Forge seems to be a self sustaining operation that won't disappear too soon.

Likes on facebook can be bought(as I have it on good authority RF did). Plenty of companies can make fake profiles and sell "likes" in bulk to any random page to feign popularity. No different than forging views on Youtube, for which several major record labels were punished.

And I guess for full disclosure I will post my personal experience with Daniel Mandelbaum:

My involvement with him began in April of 2012 when he was operating under the name Three Stage Studios. He was producing a true-scale terminator kit at the time and I placed an order with him. Over two weeks I did not receive any tracking info and when I inquired about it I was told that he has had more orders than he thought and was running behind. I did receive a tracking number about 3 weeks after placing my order.

My items arrived in the mail and I received everything I paid for. I was truly happy with the product and didn't have any reason to complain.

About two weeks after shipping Daniel contacted me to make sure I received the order, and then he asked me if I would mind giving them a review. At this point there were also a few members of Dakka that were interested in the product and were posting in the thread about Three Stage Studios hoping for scale shots. So I took a few pictures of the models next to some Games Workshop models for scale and posted them on Dakka with a quick review in the middle of May 2012. During this time all communication from Daniel was professional and civil.

About halfway through July 2012 complaints started to arrive about Three Stage Studios on Dakka and I received a new email from Daniel asking me to defend him:

Daniel Mandelbaum wrote:Hello,

Since I am now unable to defend myself and anyone that does defend me on dakka is banned, can you post in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/463216.page

Please link your review and also I can give you screen shoots of that man/lir showing he got a refund that he asked for today as well as tracking this evening for free models. He is simply attacking me even after it was made clear that threads against me should not be made.

You will probably notice some of the same arguments and tactics that are currently on display on Resin Forge's Facebook site. At the time I ignored the email.

Over the next few weeks it seemed like more people were reporting problems with Three Stage Studios and people were getting concerned. I shared that I had a problem with delivery but that it was resolved in two weeks time (sound familiar?) and that I hope that everybody else gets their problems resolved as well. As more people started to have problems they would link to my original review and state "well, he got his stuff, so maybe there is hope". I started to feel like I had inadvertently contributed to a situation that has left people with money out of their pockets and no deliveries to show for it. I made my feelings known to the community, I apologized for my review and shared my sincere hope that nobody ended up loosing money after reading my review and then deciding to place an order. I asked the moderators of Dakka to delete my original review hoping that nobody else would place and order after reading it. During the same time we (the community) also suspected that Daniel Mandelbaum was also the real name associated with this person.

Shortly after having it deleted by a mod I received new communication from Daniel:

Daniel Mandelbaum wrote: have seen the bs dakka thread.

All I want to say is I have your review saved so removing it to make it appear no one has ever gotten a kit is a waste of time.

In total there are 16 reviews of the kit on the net with over 75 people that have gotten them. I have had problems keeping with demand and have always sent refunds as soon as they are requested over the items.

I am not Daniel, and its slowed of you people to think that.

That is all I will say on the matter.

Good day.

--
Daniel - Three Stage Studios
http://www.threestagestudios.com

Daniel Mandelbaum wrote:http://threestagestudios.blogspot.com/2012/05/customer-review-up-as-well-as-info.html

Im glad I saved your review and pictures before you guys "redacted it".

I wont let dakka make me look worse then things already are. Acussing me of this or that, removing reviews to make it seem like no one has ever gotten anything.. I wont play games like that.

--
Daniel - Three Stage Studios
http://www.threestagestudios.com

I went through legal channels and filed a DMCA take-down request with Google over sharing my pictures (Yes, I pulled a GW, don't judge me since it was for a good cause ) which Google obliged and informed Daniel that any other copies of my review hosted without my permission would face the same actions. After some claims that Google advised him on how to circumvent the DMCA he dropped the subject.

That same other users also started to share reports of receiving phone calls from Daniel that would not stop. Daniel claimed in emails to me that he was the one that was harassed and that he was not the one making the phone calls. He states that he filed a police report and provided me with a link to the report. At this point of time the emails started to get profane, filled with swearing, and are very similar to communications others have shared that they received from RSO in the past. I stopped replying to his emails and that was one of the best decisions I have ever made.

This week I was able to verify with Lexicanum that the address on file for the police report provided to me by Daniel Mandelbaum was in fact the same delivery address utilized by Resin Forge.

I'm not out for blood and my only reason for posting this is to share my personal experience with Daniel and to establish a link between his past actions and current actions. To summarize:

1) I placed an order, had an initial delay. Was resolved within a couple of weeks, everything was good.
2) He asked me for a review, which I provided.
3) 2+ months later people started to report problems with his company.
4) My review was mentioned, and I decided to remove it since I was concerned that I had been used.
5) Daniel Mandelbaum started to send me a barrage of emails which no longer had the professional tone and instead were filled with cursing and accusations.
6) I was able to verify that Daniel Mandelbaum and Three Stage Studios had the same address as Resin Forge.

I still feel bad about the review and every time I see his name surface I worry that there might be people out there who lost money because of it. I still have most of the models sitting in a box , and sometimes I will take them out and start to plan a project with them. But honestly, every time I even hold them I feel sick about the whole mess I was involved in and put them back on the shelf. I just feel like I was one of the lucky ones to get my orders in order to build up orders and support for what felt like an effort to scam others down the line.

 d-usa wrote:
And I guess for full disclosure I will post my personal experience with Daniel Mandelbaum:

Daniel Mandelbaum wrote: have seen the bs dakka thread.

All I want to say is I have your review saved so removing it to make it appear no one has ever gotten a kit is a waste of time.

In total there are 16 reviews of the kit on the net with over 75 people that have gotten them. I have had problems keeping with demand and have always sent refunds as soon as they are requested over the items.

I am not Daniel, and its slowed of you people to think that.

That is all I will say on the matter.

Good day.

--
Daniel - Three Stage Studios
http://www.threestagestudios.com

I assume this is quoted word for word, and that he is (allegedly) stupid??
Or how else would someone claim I am not Daniel, then sign off with daniel...

robo

I am not Daniel.


Daniel sorry ment to say Jeff - Three Stage Studios

Nothing was altered

This are just the kind of things that are typical according to the reports from people who have spoken to him in the past. He appears to trip over the details.

Of course this fits with the current events from the now deleted thread on the Resin Forge Facebook:

RF: There is the Dakka post, look at them pretending that I am Daniel!
Customer: Are you saying that police report is fake?
RF: No, it's legit!
Customer: It says you are Daniel...
RF: Quit trolling.

Or the thread we are actually in:

"Here is a C&D from Daniel Mandelbaum, owner of Resin Forge. He says that your post about Daniel Mandelbaum possibly being the owner of Resin Forge is a lie"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bloodmagic wrote:
I am not Daniel.


Daniel sorry ment to say Jeff - Three Stage Studios

To be fair, my original PayPal payment went to Daniel Mandelbaum, and all his emails to me from Three Stage Studios were always signed Daniel.

Remember that prior to Three Stage Studios we only knew of RedStarOne and Matthew Bonder and nobody had any reason to be concerned about anybody named Daniel Mandelbaum. His police reports and a few other things during that affair brought everything full circle and finally allowed the community to attach a real name to all his enterprises. Prior to that we were going fake names and online handles.

 d-usa wrote:
Since I am now unable to defend myself and anyone that does defend me on dakka is banned, ...

I particularly like this bit... He made a similar claim on his Facebook when the Resin Forge silliness started up, that we just banned anyone who had anything positive to say about Resin Forge.

So far as I am aware, nobody has ever been banned from Dakka for saying something positive about Daniel, Resin Forge, Three Stage Studios, or any of the other various names or businesses that have been linked to him. Even if some of the more vengeful mods were to feel the temptation to squash views that differ from the apparent majority (and lets face it, given that we're all fascists, that's just to be expected), Yakface would just go all reasonable on them and send them to the woodshed again.

It doesn't happen. It has never happened. If anyone has been banned, it's for inappropriate behaviour (I seem to recall that there might have been one or two that fit that category during the MWC fiasco), not just for having nice things to say about one of Daniel's business ventures.

 insaniak wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Since I am now unable to defend myself and anyone that does defend me on dakka is banned, ...

I particularly like this bit... He made a similar claim on his Facebook when the Resin Forge silliness started up, that we just banned anyone who had anything positive to say about Resin Forge.

Which is part of the reason I shared my story, just so many parallels:

Then: I had problems not getting something, finally got everything I ordered within two weeks, problem resolved. Two months later orders stopped being filled.
Now: Somebody had problems getting something, finally got everything he ordered within two weeks, problem resolved. (So I guess the timer starts now?)

Then: I can't defend myself and anyone that does defend me on dakka is banned.
Now: I can't defend myself and anyone that does defend me on dakka is banned.

Then: I'm filing police reports!
Now: I'm filing police reports!

Then: Multiple emails that escalated in frequency and amount of cursing involved.
Now: Reports of multiple emails that escalate in frequency and amount of cursing involved.

People can make of that what they will. Just reporting the facts as they happened to me in the past and what I am watching right now.

There wasn't That much cursing in the emails he sent me...

 AduroT wrote:
There wasn't That much cursing in the emails he sent me...

There should not be ANY swearing in business emails. It's the easiest way to discredit the conversation as hostile. Most customer service lines hang up if the caller swears.


He swore at great length in the emails which is highly unprofessional. Then again harassing someone at work for things said on facebook is highly unprofessional.

Neither Daniel nor anyone claiming to be involved in RF has contacted me since I verified the caller ID as well as police report, even when I invited them to call or email(Granted Daniel himself is not to call my office as was made very clear to him by the company director).

Resin Forge has published a customer services number, which is actually only a mobile phone.

It would help restore confidence in the company if they would publish their legal business registration details.

Hazarding a guess on the behavior, possible narcissist?

Experiences / behavior that would indicate one:

Any negative comment would be considered a personal attack.

No empathy, some level of contempt for how "stupid" we are falling for the same tricks but at the same time upset that we are not falling for the same tricks (does not like trying to come up with a new method).

Start off ingratiating themselves to get what they want and eventually intimidation as the go-to method if losing control of the situation. Ignoring direct contact from them IS the best method dealing with the individual ANY reply provides more incentive to bug you for more attention and attempts to "punish".

Need for an audience (to feel important, narcissistic supply) but in this case public opinion is turning, causing desperation/anger/fear being "found out" = self image under threat.

Win at all costs mentality: the fabulous TFG label we bat around a bit. Trying to use someone's employer to get at the person is a "shock tactic" it lends some credibility because really, what normal person would do that unless REALLY upset. It is only another tool in the tool chest.

This forum is perfect for shutting down a narcissist (if he is one, I will place my bets) the hope is to keep us separate and he can manage us individually, failing that, hope to remove the rallying point (C & D) and the final option is establishing his credentials again under another disguise.

Just bringing up this "conjecture" because I have quite a few personal examples in my life of this type of person.

Support each other, chances have been given, no longer give benefit of the doubt: he is counting on it.

Long time lurker around here, first time actually registering and posting. After 12 pages of reading I have all kinds of people I want to respond to. If the mods have issues with anything said below I take no offense, edit away.

Before we begin, a caveat. I am not a lawyer. I received my degree in Journalism from a fine University in the Rocky Mountains. I extensively studied free speech law because it was of particular interest to me as a journalism major. Since then I read case law for fun. I enjoy Supreme Court findings in my spare time. I look over the Supreme Court docket annually looking forward to cases that will be important to me as a gamer and a journalist, and sometimes important to me for the schaudenfreude. This obsession with case law has been called crazy, and I am seeing a therapist. Without further ado, I will begin working over the "Quote" button contained on this screen.

Doctadeath wrote:HBMC, victims could use PMing and other methods to organise a class action against this.

I do not know the rate at which these alleged cons have taken place, but a multi-state class action lawsuit (which we're talking about here unless each person allegedly scammed was in the same location as the scammer) requires an amount in controversy over $5 million or so US dollars. That's a lot of scratch. Despite it seeming like every time you open the newspaper there is a new class action lawsuit, getting a class certified to sue as a class is an incredibly difficult thing to do.

Dicey wrote:A C&D needs to be signed by a Judge. This is fake.

Sadly, this is not accurate, which I believe was pointed out earlier. A Cease and Desist letter is not a legal document. If you felt like a writing a C&D to someone you could. I'd recommend fewer typos than the one in this case, but that is neither here nor there. A Cease and Desist's purpose is for an allegedly aggrieved party to inform the alleged perpetrator that he/she/they/it has, proverbially, "hurt their feelings," and if remedy is not taken to make them feel better, they will sue.

E-mailed C&D's are a common tactic in the internet age, but they are not recommended if you plan on actually seeking legal remedy if your demands are not met. There are far too many things that can go wrong. Here's some to think about if you decide to e-mail a a C&D to someone who then doesn't comply, and says they never got it. All of these excuses have appeared in court.

"Your honor, must have gotten caught in my spam folder."
"Your honor, that's a shared e-mail, I never saw that one."
"Your honor, I have a printed copy of that e-mail that says I got it just yesterday, how was it sent nine months ago?"

Do you see how e-mailing a C&D could be a bad idea? Even sending e-mail requesting a return receipt doesn't cover your bases. Most e-mail clients now provide a pop-up. "Return receipt requested; send?" I click no...every...single...time.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Those owed money by Daniel/Mattew/RSO/etc need to put together some sort of report to the police. It's the only way anything will be done. If the police don't seem much help generally, it could be pursed through claiming mail fraud which I think is taken quite seriously in the US. There's a wealth of evidence to aid in identifying him and ensuring he can be found for contact by relevant bodies. I absolutely think that the incident of harassing someone at work should be rolled into any sort of group claim.

If he isn't tackled through the correct channels, we'll be seeing this again in a few months. If he closes ResinForge he'll start something new in the very near future.

Howard has nailed the proverbial nail on the head. Herein though we have an issue. If you made a purchase from a company that allegedly is committing fraud, you have to know where they are, and who they are, in order to file a police report. If you know who they are, and where they are, you now need to file two separate police reports. First, you need to file with your local police department. Then, you need to file with the local police department in the city where the perpetrator is located. Neither police department wants to take your report though, because your report will not stop a murderer, jail a drunken driver, or solve a giant drug bust. You must be persistent. You must find the detective to talk to and you must insist they take the report in your home town. Then...you must get the report number.

Got all that?

Good. Do it again, in a different jurisdiction, potentially hundreds or thousands of miles away from where you are at. Find the right detective. Insist he take the report. Tell him you've filed locally. Give him that police report number. Give him the name of the detective assigned to your case. Get the new police report number. Call the detective in your home town and give him that number, and the name of the detective assigned to your second case.

Now that you've done all of that, share the name of the detective you spoke to in the city of the alleged perpetrator. Hand out his contact phone number to ANYONE else who may need to make a report. Make sure they follow all the other steps before calling this poor detective, because he's about to get overworked. When he has the name of the same alleged perpetrator in front of him a second time, a third time, a fourth time...then he'll start looking for the guy.

Now, call the Postal Inspectors - 1-877-876-2455. Report Mail Fraud. A single count carries a maximum sentence of $250,000 and one year in jail.

Saldiven wrote:If you can track down a physical address for him, you could try filing a case against him in small claims court. It's really not all that difficult or expensive. Additionally, any expenses you incur can be included in the award. Typically, depending on the local and state fee structure, the filing fees are between $100 and $150. The forms are also simple enough to do without having a lawyer. Just make sure you can document the damages you are claiming, because that'll be one of the first things the judge asks to see.

The negative is that collecting on the debt after the judgement. There are fun things like garnishing bank accounts or filing a FiFa lien, but sometimes they're more work than is worth the money involved. Also, the judgment could be avoided through personal bankruptcy.

Though, that being said, collecting on a FiFa lien can be a lot of fun, in a deeply vindictive sort of way.

Unless you live in Texas filing a small claims court case will most likely prove to be unwieldy and costly. There are no Federal Small Claims courts, so the normal rule of "court case involving parties in two states" doesn't apply here. You would have to file in the small claims district in which the defendant lives. You would then have to travel to Texas to be in court to testify, present documentation, and hope that the other party hasn't done something to cause you to have to travel to Texas a second time; file a last second extension, perhaps?

Aerethan wrote:Likes on facebook can be bought(as I have it on good authority RF did). Plenty of companies can make fake profiles and sell "likes" in bulk to any random page to feign popularity. No different than forging views on Youtube, for which several major record labels were punished.

Likes on Facebook can be purchased in far less nefarious ways as well. We've all seen Facebook ads on our profile, the targeted ads that make you go "How do they know I like that Warhammer stuff?" Well, if you've told them you do, people who advertise on Facebook can use that information. The company I work for put $500.00 in a Facebook advertising campaign, and targeted the ad we designed at users who had "Liked" the product pages for any product we sell, and added targets for users who "Liked" the page of any competition we had within 20 miles or so. Our $500.00 bought nearly 2,000 likes for the company page, from as far away at Bharain and Seoul. Facebook likes mean very little, as you were pointing out.

Guildsgjg wrote:Anyone considred filing a friendly notice to the Texas State Attorney General with a brief rundown on some of the questionable activities that have taken place? Doesn't cost any money and at the end of the day, who knows they may take action against the company at no cost to dakkanauts.....

This is a fine idea. Since the physical location of the alleged perpetrator is, as far as I can tell, unknown, just fill these out the best you can.

Texas Attorney General - Consumer Complaint Division
https://www.oag.state.tx.us/consumer/complain.shtml

Better Business Bureau - Dallas, TX.
https://www.bbb.org/consumer-complaints/file-a-complaint/get-started

The phone number provided by the alleged scammers is a Cingular Wireless cell phone in Grand Prarie, TX. According the BBB, that would be handled by the Dallas office. Of course, the website is registered in the UK, so the BBB may not take your complaint. If you happen to have skin in this already and want to put another $15.00 into it, you might be interested in this link.

http://www.phonemessagepro.com/tel-results.php?num=214-632-6446

Finally, judging from the website of the alleged scammers, it would appear that many of you probably paid them through PayPal. Well, it turns out that PayPal, as well as taking your money in fees from you hand over fist, is also pretty good about following those pesky laws regarding real identification in order to avoid money laundering. I would be willing to bet that if enough victims went through the process of pestering local police department detectives, both their own and the police department near the alleged scammer, and made sure to include "I sent money through PayPal to this address..." that eventually the cops in Texas would get a court order to force PayPal to provide that identification information.

That seems worthwhile.

With that, I sign off. I am more a lurker than a poster everywhere I visit, but I was moved to join Dakka and leave this information. As I said before, mods, feel free to cut, paste, crush, mash, or remove anything you feel like.

Zep

Likes on Facebook can be purchased in far less nefarious ways as well. We've all seen Facebook ads on our profile, the targeted ads that make you go "How do they know I like that Warhammer stuff?" Well, if you've told them you do, people who advertise on Facebook can use that information. The company I work for put $500.00 in a Facebook advertising campaign, and targeted the ad we designed at users who had "Liked" the product pages for any product we sell, and added targets for users who "Liked" the page of any competition we had within 20 miles or so. Our $500.00 bought nearly 2,000 likes for the company page, from as far away at Bharain and Seoul. Facebook likes mean very little, as you were pointing out.

I didn't see evidence that likes were bought. Much more probable that he used his "Like" associations and showcasing in big forums (Bolter and Chainsword for example) and that his conversions were featured or liked or re-shared by big names (Aaron Dembski Bowden for example) and smaller pages (Lexicanum and diverse Painting Services for example).

I don't have a horse in this race and have been watching because I enjoy reading the legal gymnastic threads and getting a primer on law and copyright information, but I have to post here just to say that you, TheZeppo, are a legend. That's probably the best info post I've seen in one of these topics for a while. Kudos and Exalted. (Good for your first post!)

Hope you keep posting.

 midget_overlord wrote:
Update to my thread here;

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/523568.page

I have been paid back in full for my 2 misplaced packages, resin forge have held up to their word and I got my money back.

Please read carefully, my thread does not have anything to do with any accusations seen here. I have tried to be as clear as possible (please forgive me, english is not my first language!)

I would like to say that I am not taking any side here, I just want people to be informed of my experiences.

I am very happy to move on, it was getting hard to work on my sons of horus without having a bitter taste in my mouth, I never expected my ''HOBBY'' to be more than me relaxing and painting my little toy soldiers.

I'm glad that you've reached a resolution with them - count yourself among the lucky few there.

By my accounts, Daniel still owes me $235.

I've emailed Resin Forge to ask for this amount because they have directed anyone with outstanding claims from Daniel Mandelbaum (verified owner/part owner of Resin Forge) to do so.

Daniel knows all of these details, but I've spelled them out again in my email to Resin Forge, just in case.

Now all I get are replies, asking me to call into the 'Customer Service' number.

On the off chance that Daniel has lost my phone number, I'll have to go pick up a burner phone for this, as anyone who has dealt with him in the past knows the volume of calls you'll then be receiving back, at all hours, is rather staggering.

Bottom line - no resolution yet.

4+ years and counting!

The best thing to do if you're gijng to call is to take some notes like time call started, time call ended, notes from the phone conversation, and then take all those things and out them into an email. I do this with clients when I have to call them about my company's software. It gives you a paper trail, and in the business world kind of shows that you were paying attention. In this case it also gives you a paper trail so future claims of "he never said that" can be more easily disproven than a he said shr said. Also it does give the added benefit of having a record of the conversation without recording the call.

And alph burner phone info incoming via pm

It is a bit strange that they find it more suitable to deal with detailed complaints by phone rather than in writing.

If you did ring them, you should record the conversation to have proof of what is said.

It's probably harder for most to record a call than to keep a letter. Or that's their belief.

@ResinForge, phone is useless. Unless it is in writing, with names, dates and addresses on it, either with your registered business info or your personal info, your customer has absolutely no guarantee anything said in conversation is solid.

Neither do you for that matter.

The phone opens up too many doors for harassment and time wasting. If you really want to be on the up and up, your clients need to get it in writing. Anything else is just talk.

If you don't have a recorder, you can keep written notes.

It is a good policy in any long-running dispute such as this one to keep a clear record of all communications.

@KC this was discussed a bit earlier, though this would seem the common sense sensible thing to do, apparently recording conversations in many states, even when informing the 2nd party is considered entrapment or could be. This is why in writing, besides being the most accurate, is also the safest for both parties.