Who is the best character in a challenge?

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**Ailaros**

generalchaos34 wrote:... and there is nothing special or enhanced about him outside of his grit

Well, except for his cybernetic laser pistol eye, and his bionic metal-crushing power klaw, and his superpowered force field. Otheriwse, yes. Pure grit.

It would be pretty epic to have him get back up in a challenge, though.

**generalchaos34**

Ailaros wrote:
generalchaos34 wrote:... and there is nothing special or enhanced about him outside of his grit

Well, except for his cybernetic laser pistol eye, and his bionic metal-crushing power klaw, and his superpowered force field. Otheriwse, yes. Pure grit.

It would be pretty epic to have him get back up in a challenge, though.

Well....I meant in terms of bio engineering or chaos gifts =P, besides, he only bought those because his guard issued limbs were lost.

And yes, Ive seen him go 4 rounds with Commander Dante and he died and came back at least 2 times to my memory. The best part was that the penal legion he was with (we tried them out for fun) got to cheer him on once they eliminated his escorts in another amazing round of lopsided combat.

**TheKbob**

Either St Celestine, because she gets the last laugh or a GK Brotherhood Champion.

Get squished by Abadon? Reach out and touch someone... hit and he's dead.

Oh, and it doesn't work on St Celestine.

So she wins. 100%

**G00fySmiley**

swarmlord wins this in mathhammer every time

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

I'd take Lysander in a heartbeat every time.

**BarBoBot**

Ailaros wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:if MSS gets off pretty much any Necronlord. It doesn't matter if you have leadership 10, half the time he makes you beat yourself to death.

And that's why a necron lord isn't the best. Yes, half the time he causes you to punch yourself, but half of the time he doesn't. 50% chance of winning is basically his upper limit.

Because if he doesn't get MSS off, then there's really nothing very special to him. He's basically just a thunder hammer/storm shield terminator with a couple extra wounds. Beefy, but far from unbeatable.

Necron overlord. Warscythe, MSS, res orb, 2+/3++

50% of the time leadership 10 fails the test and hits themselves. When they pass, the overlord still has t5 S7 ap1 attacks and the 2+3++ with a 4+ Everliving in case you actually get through his saves.

I would like to see the mathhammer on anything that can down this guy in a single round of combat, (seriously) because statistically you will fail the MSS if combat continues.

*edit* forgot to mention that alot of the weapons that can force him to take his 3++ hit at I1 ( power fist, power axe etc.) while the overlords ap1 attacks happen at I2.

**-Loki-**

BarBoBot wrote:
Necron overlord. Warscythe, MSS, res orb, 2+/3++

50% of the time leadership 10 fails the test and hits themselves. When they pass, the overlord still has t5 S7 ap1 attacks and the 2+3++ with a 4+ Everliving in case you actually get through his saves.

I would like to see the mathhammer on anything that can down this guy in a single round of combat, (seriously) because statistically you will fail the MSS if combat continues.

The Swarmlord will take him down without a sweat if MSS doesn't go off. Mathhammering, the Swarmlord will win any challenge with or without Iron Arm with any of the actually good beatsticks in the game. The only reason Necron Lords have any chance against him is MSS, which is more telling still about the Swarmlords attacks and not the Necrons.

Against the real Challenge characters, Necron Lords are solidly mediocre, and the only reason MSS makes Necron Lords win is those characters turn their incredible attacks inwards.

**anonymou5**

BarBoBot wrote:
Ailaros wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:if MSS gets off pretty much any Necronlord. It doesn't matter if you have leadership 10, half the time he makes you beat yourself to death.

And that's why a necron lord isn't the best. Yes, half the time he causes you to punch yourself, but half of the time he doesn't. 50% chance of winning is basically his upper limit.

Because if he doesn't get MSS off, then there's really nothing very special to him. He's basically just a thunder hammer/storm shield terminator with a couple extra wounds. Beefy, but far from unbeatable.

Necron overlord. Warscythe, MSS, res orb, 2+/3++

50% of the time leadership 10 fails the test and hits themselves. When they pass, the overlord still has t5 S7 ap1 attacks and the 2+3++ with a 4+ Everliving in case you actually get through his saves.

I would like to see the mathhammer on anything that can down this guy in a single round of combat, (seriously) because statistically you will fail the MSS if combat continues.

*edit* forgot to mention that alot of the weapons that can force him to take his 3++ hit at I1 ( power fist, power axe etc.) while the overlords ap1 attacks happen at I2.

I don't have the Tyranid codex, so I cannot do a true mathhammer on the Swarmlord, but I think it would take him three turns to kill himself, only one to kill an overlord.

The best beatstick I own is a LoC running some grimoire shenanigans. He strikes at S10, AP2, I6, with 3 attacks (4 on the charge). He will always have prescience and often have misfortune or precognition. He will have a rerollable 2++ 66.6% of the time (or 85ish% if paired with Fateweaver). He will often have 4+ FNP, and rerollable invuln in general. He essentially cannot kill himself through MSS, due to the invuln save, the fact that he can't ID himself (T6), and his high number of wounds which exceeds the max damage of a perfect roll on MSS (5 wounds). On the first round of combat he passes his MSS, he will kill the Overlord 47% of the time. With prescience on, it's 62%, with precog it is 73%. I don't know how to calculate Misfortune accurately, but it's probably higher than 75%.

So, a Lord of Change, in game conditions, will roll through an Overlord (and he better, he's 3x the cost), and a Lord of Change is definitely not top dog.

Edit: I did that math assuming the Overlord is WS6, numbers would obviously shift if it's different.

**-Loki-**

anonymou5 wrote:
BarBoBot wrote:
Ailaros wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:if MSS gets off pretty much any Necronlord. It doesn't matter if you have leadership 10, half the time he makes you beat yourself to death.

And that's why a necron lord isn't the best. Yes, half the time he causes you to punch yourself, but half of the time he doesn't. 50% chance of winning is basically his upper limit.

Because if he doesn't get MSS off, then there's really nothing very special to him. He's basically just a thunder hammer/storm shield terminator with a couple extra wounds. Beefy, but far from unbeatable.

Necron overlord. Warscythe, MSS, res orb, 2+/3++

50% of the time leadership 10 fails the test and hits themselves. When they pass, the overlord still has t5 S7 ap1 attacks and the 2+3++ with a 4+ Everliving in case you actually get through his saves.

I would like to see the mathhammer on anything that can down this guy in a single round of combat, (seriously) because statistically you will fail the MSS if combat continues.

*edit* forgot to mention that alot of the weapons that can force him to take his 3++ hit at I1 ( power fist, power axe etc.) while the overlords ap1 attacks happen at I2.

I don't have the Tyranid codex, so I cannot do a true mathhammer on the Swarmlord, but I think it would take him three turns to kill himself, only one to kill an overlord.

Only if he gets Iron Arm. If he doesn't, and failed a save against his own attacks, he's dead (Bonesaber attacks all cause instant death). If he rolls Iron Arm and passes the psychic test, he's got Eternal Warrior.

**BarBoBot**

Don't forget the res orb. 50% chance to just get back up...

With a 50% failure rate on mss, 50% everliving and a 2+3++ what's the actual percent chance that the swarmlord kills the overlord in a single round?

**Belly**

ELDRAD!

Seriously. I've had Eldrad take down some big targets.

Once he casts fortune on himself, he's nigh untouchable. I had him in combat against a Daemon Prince (with that crazy choppy axe of murder) and just watched him tank wounds with a re-rollable 3++, while plinking the Prince for a 0-1 wounds each combat round with his 2 attacks. We counted it, I saves 27 wounds with his 3++ rerollable. If a single one went through he would have kicked the bucket.

MSS are quite ineffective for the same reason.

But that's about it. It's funny as hell, but he's not actually great.

**anonymou5**

BarBoBot wrote:
Don't forget the res orb. 50% chance to just get back up...

With a 50% failure rate on mss, 50% everliving and a 2+3++ what's the actual percent chance that the swarmlord kills the overlord in a single round?

Assuming the chances of the Swarmlord striking the Overlord down are close to 100% (and at AP2, forcing a reroll on an invulnerable save, and one unsaved wound being instant death, that's probably accurate), around 20-25%.

Now I'm wondering what happens if the Lord of Change strikes down an Overlord, and he gets back up. Does he still explode first? Wording on Staff of Change is "if a ... character loses its last wound to a Staff of Change" Be funny if he blows up, wounds the LoC, then gets back up after.

**Tiberius V**

Skarbrand. 6 attacks striking at initiative 10 that hits on 3+, wound on a 2+ (fleshbane), have AP 2 and cause instant death. Not to mention he re-rolls to miss in the first round of combat, and gets +2 attacks if he charged.

If any character manages to survive to attack him he has toughness 6 and 5 wounds.

Puny mortals don't stand a chance.

**krazykishere**

Remember one thing about mss, if you get the charge off on the necron you get to dictate when the mss goes off(before or after challenge is issued). So non MC characters cam use this to there advantage to ice that overlord before the MSS becomes an issue.

**aceface**

Blood Thirster with all the nasty upgrades

**Sinji**

Gaz. 7 Attacks on the charge at S10 Ap2. Can't be insta gibbed. When taken with a nob squad can be WS7 & has FnP and come with a 2+ 5++ save. And on his Waaaaagh!!! move has a 2++ invo save and make the whole army fearless.

**-Loki-**

Sinji wrote:
Gaz. 7 Attacks on the charge at S10 Ap2. Can't be insta gibbed.

Also strikes last, and has 4 wounds and WS 6.

He's awesome, but he's not the best in a challenge.

Sinji wrote:
When taken with a nob squad can be WS7 & has FnP and come with a 2+ 5++ save. And on his Waaaaagh!!! move has a 2++ invo save and make the whole army fearless.

They won't do much for him in a challenge.

**thisisnotpancho**

Yeah. I'd just like to point out the LoC again. With forewarning and the grimoire, he's got a re-rollable 2+ invuln. And he's almost as badass as a bloodthirster in combat. I would throw in a staff of change for +2 strength and watch him whittle down any single character in the game.

It's funny, almost. The re-rollable 2+ invuln shenanigans you can get off...

But you take any character in the game against the LoC with a re-rollable 2++ and you've lost. Even if MSS goes off 90% of the time

**anonymou5**

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Yeah. I'd just like to point out the LoC again. With forewarning and the grimoire, he's got a re-rollable 2+ invuln. And he's almost as badass as a bloodthirster in combat. I would throw in a staff of change for +2 strength and watch him whittle down any single character in the game.

It's funny, almost. The re-rollable 2+ invuln shenanigans you can get off...

But you take any character in the game against the LoC with a re-rollable 2++ and you've lost. Even if MSS goes off 90% of the time

He actually still loses to the Swarmlord. Reason being, Swarmy makes you reroll successful invulns. So LOC is rerolling fails of a 1, and successes of a 2-6. One gets through it's over. However, considering everything else the LoC can do in a game, I think I'm okay with him only being second best in close combat.

**BaconUprising**

anonymou5 wrote:
thisisnotpancho wrote:
Yeah. I'd just like to point out the LoC again. With forewarning and the grimoire, he's got a re-rollable 2+ invuln. And he's almost as badass as a bloodthirster in combat. I would throw in a staff of change for +2 strength and watch him whittle down any single character in the game.

It's funny, almost. The re-rollable 2+ invuln shenanigans you can get off...

But you take any character in the game against the LoC with a re-rollable 2++ and you've lost. Even if MSS goes off 90% of the time

He actually still loses to the Swarmlord. Reason being, Swarmy makes you reroll successful invulns. So LOC is rerolling fails of a 1, and successes of a 2-6. One gets through it's over. However, considering everything else the LoC can do in a game, I think I'm okay with him only being second best in close combat.

Guarantee Angron or Horus could beat him.

**cowmonaut**

Logan Grimnar!

The Old Wolf is WS 6 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A 5 Sv 2+/4++ and comes with Eternal Warrior, a Wolftooth Necklace (hits all targets in melee on a 3+) and has The Axe Morkai. He can split his attacks between either S 8 (User x2) AP 2 Unwieldy OR S 5 AP 3. And being a Space Wolf he has Counter-Attack, which with Ld 10 (and Stubborn to boot!) so he's likely getting 6 attacks that first round.

Edit: Forgot he also can choose to have Preferred Enemy and can get +1 Attack once per game, so he can put out 7 attacks in one round if needed. I'm not 100% sure, but I think he's probably 2nd best after Abaddon. With 4 wounds and a Daemon Weapon that is AP 2 and strikes at Initiative 6, Abaddon wins. He has a 50% chance of killing even Logan Grimnar outright (he needs 8 attacks or more). Which he'd better, since Logan can pretty much be guaranteed to deal 3 Wounds to Abaddon.

Makes for tense fights. The rolls mean so much with those 2 duke-ing it out!

For them's that interested in the boring math:

Spoiler:

**Satan's Little Helper**

Are we including the Primarchs? If so, Horus is a better version of Abaddon so I would say him.

If not, Abaddon.

**GoliothOnline**

I actually have to agree that P4P Abaddon is probably the best IC...

Sure, a swarmlord could buff himself with Iron Arm + Warpspeed, then again, Abaddon could just enlist a cheap sorcerer to do the same for him..

where a 320 point Swarm Lord fails is his saves and survivability.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Abaddon has been claimed to be on a higher level than Horus. Having absorbed much of his spiritual essence from the daemonic Talon of Horus, and then surpassing him by obtaining the Daemon Sword Drach'Nyen.. Horus never had that kind of enlisted benefit

Nor the blessing of all 4 gods of chaos!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S.S.

Most forget that because of Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant, he also benefits from Rage, granting him +2 attacks on the charge, and also counter attack. Along by plopping him in a group of Slaneshi, he gains FNP / Khorne - FC / Nurgle - Fear and all that jazz

(With the appropriate Icon purchased of course

)

**-Loki-**

GoliothOnline wrote:
I actually have to agree that P4P Abaddon is probably the best IC...

Sure, a swarmlord could buff himself with Iron Arm + Warpspeed, then again, Abaddon could just enlist a cheap sorcerer to do the same for him..

where a 320 point Swarm Lord fails is his saves and survivability.

You're missing the point. The Swarmlord inherintly gets 4 psychic powers. You don't pay for them. He just gets them. It gives him an 80% chance to get Iron Arm.

The Swarmlord is also not 320pts.

Abaddon doesn't come with a Sorcerer. That's another model. That's missing the point of the thread. If we're adding a Sorcer for Abaddon, you need to add something for the Swarmlord. How about a Lashwhip Guard to make Abbadon I1? Swarmlord won't need Iron Arm to kill him first then. But then, you can add something else for Chaos. And something else for the Tyranids...

**GoliothOnline**

What mastery Level is the Swarmlord?

**-Loki-**

GoliothOnline wrote:
What mastery Level is the Swarmlord?

As per the FAQ, he is mastery level 2, with 4 psychic powers.

**Pouncey**

TheKbob wrote:
Either St Celestine, because she gets the last laugh or a GK Brotherhood Champion.

Get squished by Abadon? Reach out and touch someone... hit and he's dead.

Oh, and it doesn't work on St Celestine.

So she wins. 100%

I had a thought.

If you watch South Park frequently, there was an episode a few - many? - years ago about Little League Baseball. Near the end, two dads are fighting, one of them is beaten so badly he starts to hallucinate what I assume is a scene from one of the Rocky movies where people are telling him to get up and fight, and the kids, wanting to get disqualified so they don't have to play baseball all summer and can go goof off and play videogames instead, cheer him on. So while some appropriate music plays, he slowly gets up, puts up his dukes, and tells the other dad, "Hey Bat-dad... I didn't hear no bell..." and goes on to launch an assault on the other dad that leaves his opponent and two Umpires pinned on the ground.

I'd imagine it'd be sorta similar to that.

**tgf**

-Loki- wrote:
BarBoBot wrote:
Necron overlord. Warscythe, MSS, res orb, 2+/3++

50% of the time leadership 10 fails the test and hits themselves. When they pass, the overlord still has t5 S7 ap1 attacks and the 2+3++ with a 4+ Everliving in case you actually get through his saves.

I would like to see the mathhammer on anything that can down this guy in a single round of combat, (seriously) because statistically you will fail the MSS if combat continues.

The Swarmlord will take him down without a sweat if MSS doesn't go off. Mathhammering, the Swarmlord will win any challenge with or without Iron Arm with any of the actually good beatsticks in the game. The only reason Necron Lords have any chance against him is MSS, which is more telling still about the Swarmlords attacks and not the Necrons.

Against the real Challenge characters, Necron Lords are solidly mediocre, and the only reason MSS makes Necron Lords win is those characters turn their incredible attacks inwards.

LOL swarmlord, my overlord has killed more swarm lords than you can imagine. Its funny when the swarmlord ID's himself.

**GoliothOnline**

So he can technically roll on Biomancy 4 times?..

That's pretty silly... and by silly I mean stupid.

But I have yet to be killed by a Swarmlord in CC with Abaddon, so who knows. Maybe I have yet to see the pain one can truly bring.

**-Loki-**

tgf wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
BarBoBot wrote:
Necron overlord. Warscythe, MSS, res orb, 2+/3++

50% of the time leadership 10 fails the test and hits themselves. When they pass, the overlord still has t5 S7 ap1 attacks and the 2+3++ with a 4+ Everliving in case you actually get through his saves.

I would like to see the mathhammer on anything that can down this guy in a single round of combat, (seriously) because statistically you will fail the MSS if combat continues.

The Swarmlord will take him down without a sweat if MSS doesn't go off. Mathhammering, the Swarmlord will win any challenge with or without Iron Arm with any of the actually good beatsticks in the game. The only reason Necron Lords have any chance against him is MSS, which is more telling still about the Swarmlords attacks and not the Necrons.

Against the real Challenge characters, Necron Lords are solidly mediocre, and the only reason MSS makes Necron Lords win is those characters turn their incredible attacks inwards.

LOL swarmlord, my overlord has killed more swarm lords than you can imagine. Its funny when the swarmlord ID's himself.

Because anecdotal evidence is the best evidence!

My Hormagaunts have brutalised Wych squads in assault. That doesn't mean it's statistically going to happen regularly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoliothOnline wrote:
So he can technically roll on Biomancy 4 times?..

That's pretty silly... and by silly I mean stupid.

It is, but that's part of what makes him the beast he is

GoliothOnline wrote:
But I have yet to be killed by a Swarmlord in CC with Abaddon, so who knows. Maybe I have yet to see the pain one can truly bring.

If you do face him, and your opponent got Iron Arm, I certainly hope you do the smart thing and not challenge it in an assault. Do the smart thing. Shoot it. Shoot it a lot. Shoot it with everything.

The Swarmlords downfall is a 3+ save and no invulnerable save to ranged weapons. This is somewhat mitigated by Tyrant Guard and the ability to get T9, but not entirely.