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How about Helbrecht? 2+/4++, +d3 attacks in the first Assault Phase (up to 8 in a charge) of a combat, a S8 AP1 shot before charge, re-roll Righteous Zeal roll (arrives faster) and FnP (6+)-like (bionics). Maybe a 7th spot?

 Shan1 wrote:

rohansoldier wrote:
I think Yriel, Fuegan and Karandras all deserve honourable mentions. Sure they may not be super beatsticks in the league of Skarbrand, the Swarmlord or Abbadon, but in their own points class they are decent.

On a side note, I think the characters should be split into smaller tables based on points costs and maybe what benefits other than kills they can bring to the table.

As comparing Abbadon to St Celestine when one is over double the cost of the other is not a fair comparison imo.

Well topic is Top 10 HQs in CC, not top 10 HQs in common, I cant see Fuegan or Yriel being that good.. Karandras is good HQ in common but not in CC tbh.

Karandras beats anbody who is ap3 - he has 6 powerfists attacks. Without charging.
Yriel is I7 with about 5 attacks on the charge that always ignore armour saves and hurt on a 2+

Fuegan is WS7, I7, AP2 and as he has the smash usr he'll will make a mess of a fair amount of characters.

However, those phoenix lords don't have inv's so I don't think they're top 10 worthy. But I agree - honourable mentions to them
I don't think Kharn is top ten worthy either though. Being I5 and having a 5+inv will get him slapped down by proper cc monsters (IIRC, even Lucius will beat him)

 Shan1 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Swarmlord should be a the top of the list. 80% to get Iron Arm, with 4 bio rolls. With Iron Army he hands any other HQ their ass.

Believe me, I'm all for the Swarmlord, but when it comes to cost vs damage output he's edged out by Skarbrand with his ridiculous profile and wargear, and Mindshackle cheese will still destroy any character or single model unit over half the time for 15 points.

Are we talking about Cost-Vs Damage output, or the best HQ in close combat? Because the Swarmlord still punks Skarbrand in CC, if he's got Iron Arm.

Not to mention Skarbrand gives your opponents rage and hatred.

Not really, Instant Death AP2 Fleshbane, good bye Swarmlord.

80% chance to get Iron Arm. Eternal Warrior and +D3 Strangth and Toughness at the start of every movement phase.

Granted, he's reliant on getting Iron Arm, but he's got a bloody good chance of rolling it.

Then Skarbrand gives him +2 attacks (for a total of 6). WS9, S6-9 attacks that ignore all armour saves and force rerolls of successful invulnerable saves.

Anything with MSS and a Warscythe.

I mean, 50% chance to automatically win a duel.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Anything with MSS and a Warscythe.

I mean, 50% chance to automatically win a duel.

And 50% chance to lose horribly. Those are not good odds in the beatstick competition.

I'd like to submit Eldrad:

3++ (Almost always re-rollable),

wounds on a 2+ with no armour saves allowed.

WS5 and I5.

Lovely little tarpit that whittles away at anyone he is in assault with.

The only one who can reliably take him out is Swarmy

Iranna.

 -Loki- wrote:
And 50% chance to lose horribly. Those are not good odds in the beatstick competition.

It still has 2+/3++ with a 50% chance of getting back up with D3 wounds.
And it hits on I2 with 3 attacks on STR7 that ignore armour.

It also has the Labyrint where you have to make a 'wound-test' or be removed from the game without saves.

where is Commissar Yarick? I thought he would get a mention being a CC monster of the Guard.

 Iranna wrote:
I'd like to submit Eldrad:

3++ (Almost always re-rollable),

wounds on a 2+ with no armour saves allowed.

WS5 and I5.

Lovely little tarpit that whittles away at anyone he is in assault with.

The only one who can reliably take him out is Swarmy

Iranna.

He wont scare anyone with his 1 attack. Any char with S6 can take him easily off.

Kangodo wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
And 50% chance to lose horribly. Those are not good odds in the beatstick competition.

It still has 2+/3++ with a 50% chance of getting back up with D3 wounds.
And it hits on I2 with 3 attacks on STR7 that ignore armour.

The same way Celestines ability doesn't make her a beatstick, this simply makes the Necron lord a good sponge.

 Shan1 wrote:

 Iranna wrote:
I'd like to submit Eldrad:

3++ (Almost always re-rollable),

wounds on a 2+ with no armour saves allowed.

WS5 and I5.

Lovely little tarpit that whittles away at anyone he is in assault with.

The only one who can reliably take him out is Swarmy

Iranna.

He wont scare anyone with his 1 attack. Any char with S6 can take him easily off.

I want to say that Eldrad is T4. Still wouldn't consider him a threat & he would make a mediocre tarpit to anything but a decently tooled up assault unit. Any of the -real- beatsticks would just stomp a mudhole in his

Personally Im of the opinion that Abby is THE beatstick champ. He can go toe to toe w/ any of the mentioned chars & generally come out on top. The only ones that really pose a threat are Ghazzy & the Swarmlord - in that order. Everyone else is just a speedbump to him. The MSS 'cron OL is a nuissance & can be a minor threat if Abby fails his LD test, but otherwise he dies like anything else Abby gets his talon into.

~Vryce

Been math hammered out before
1: Swarmlord (with or without IA, hes that good)
2: Lord with all upgrades (MSS turns the tide vs anyone, only one who had a chance of beating the SL)
3: Abaddon
4: Ghaz
5: Wolf Lord with all the upgrades
6: Skarbrand(might have been for old Codex, cant remember)
7: Lysander

cant remember after that. I remember a long thread a while ago called "Abaddon takes your lunch money" that you can look for that has a LOT of math hammer in it.

If you do the math, skarbrand whips every HQ in the game except Draigo.

No csm demon prince with black mace?

Calgar > Lysander even if you only look at the Space Marines Codex (and even if you ignore Calgar kiting people with AP2 Stormbolters).

 Iranna wrote:
I'd like to submit Eldrad:

3++ (Almost always re-rollable),

wounds on a 2+ with no armour saves allowed.

WS5 and I5.

Lovely little tarpit that whittles away at anyone he is in assault with.

The only one who can reliably take him out is Swarmy

Iranna.

No just no, He is not a beat stick, a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord is that. Let one of those into contact with him, or Skarbrand for that mater and watch the pieces of Eldar go flying all around.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
If you do the math, skarbrand whips every HQ in the game except Draigo.

Except an Iron Armed Swarmlord, since Skarbrand needs to do 10 wounds to the Swarmlord, before the Swarmlord swings, or it's goodbye Skarbrand. So, in otherwords Skarbrand loses.

 Trondheim wrote:


No just no, He is not a beat stick, a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord is that. Let one of those into contact with him, or Skarbrand for that mater and watch the pieces of Eldar go flying all around.

I never suggested for a second that he was a beatstick.

I suggested that he was a tarpit who could whittle away any of the aforementioned top 10 -minus Swarmy - due to Fortune.

With Fortune, Eldrad has an 87.5% to ignore any wound. You will typically have to throw 9 wounds his way to take a wound. In my experience, he ends up lasting much longer than maths suggests.

Shan1 wrote: He wont scare anyone with his 1 attack. Any char with S6 can take him easily off.

2 Attacks, he gets +1 for two close combat weapons. He's also T4, so S6 doesn't really scare him.

Vryce wrote: I want to say that Eldrad is T4. Still wouldn't consider him a threat & he would make a mediocre tarpit to anything but a decently tooled up assault unit. Any of the -real- beatsticks would just stomp a mudhole in his...

We're not talking Eldrad vs a unit. Or at least, I wasn't.

I suggested him against the aforementioned big beatsticks (- Swarmlord.)

Iranna.

I'd really like to see these characters' damage adjusted for points cost. So instead of pure efficacy, you get an efficiency based table. However, I'm far too lazy to do that. Where's labmouse?

For Creature killing, Jain zar really isnt that bad.
WS and BS 7, a short ranged AP2 3 shot attack, then 5 S7 AP3 attacks on the charge, that will be going 1st.

Oh, and to top it off, she has counter attack, EW, fleet and fearless.
All alongside a 2+

Granted she has no ++ save, but ive never really thrown her into combat with anything thats had a chance to fight back before it dies.
And considering shes under 200 points, i could throw a unit of banshees with a kitted out exarch with her for still cheaper than most of these characters.


Also, just a note, but the reason i use her as a creature killer is because its rare for a large creature to have a 2+ save.
Most tend to be 3+.
Usually her triskele will take 2 wounds off most things, and 3 off of average characters (T4 or less)

Surprised that not more people have said Logan.

Or a bear-lord with TH SH

The only reason I didn't put the Swarmlord higher on the list is because he doesn't have Eternal Warrior. Just the fact that he can be insta-killed lowers his spot. Other than that, he has almost no down sides.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
The only reason I didn't put the Swarmlord higher on the list is because he doesn't have Eternal Warrior. Just the fact that he can be insta-killed lowers his spot. Other than that, he has almost no down sides.

He has over 85% chance of getting EW. The fact it is possible he won't have it is so small it should be discounted.

 jifel wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
All lists fail for not having St Celestine.

Bring your 400pt brick. I'll usually get a few chops in, die, and then come back.

You didn't kill me. Therefore you did not win.

Celestine is a great HQ, not a great CC HQ. I'd put it as:

Swarmlord
Skarbrand
DLord with MSS, 2++. Scythe and ResOrb
'Thirster
Draigo
Abbadon
Lysander
Kharn
Mephiston
Khornelord with Blind Axe on a Jugger

Draigo.. Draigo with his shiet AP3 sword. Statistically proven to be beaten by Abaddon 87.3% of the time. Is above Abaddon. (clap clap clap) Well done there. Mephiston, also AP3. Swarmlord has no Eternal Warrior, gets instant-deathed by anything Dark Eldar-y. I agree Lysander should be on the list, Kharn gets insta-deathed by Meltaguns (sucks).. I'm amazed that there isn't an Archon on here, I'd go: Shadow Field (2++), Huskblade (Instant Death), Combat Drugs (roll on the amazing table), Ghostplate Armour (for gaks and giggles), Haywire Grenades for that one shooting attack that could instant death Kharn and stuff, Blast Pistol (could instant death in overwatch)... What's there not to love in this guy?? Except his T3, but come on, he gets 5 attacks at S4 on the charge (with full pain tokens), good leadership, FnP, one of 6 awesome effects on the Combat Drugs table, a 2++ and an instant death weapon!! .-. Seriously!

Ok, I tell you what everyone. I have all of the codexes. So, I will, later on this evening grab some dice and simulate The Swarmlord against the other top 5 on my list in 1v1s. I will post the results, dice results and all. I will also do it a few times each to see if I can find an average. Sound good?

Also, can someone please explain how the Swarmlord gets 4 powers? I'm not seeing how he can do that.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Ok, I tell you what everyone. I have all of the codexes. So, I will, later on this evening grab some dice and simulate The Swarmlord against the other top 5 on my list in 1v1s. I will post the results, dice results and all. I will also do it a few times each to see if I can find an average. Sound good?

Also, can someone please explain how the Swarmlord gets 4 powers? I'm not seeing how he can do that.

He has all the Nid powers (4) and can exchange them for four Biomancy powers.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:


*snip*

Draigo.. Draigo with his shiet AP3 sword. Statistically proven to be beaten by Abaddon 87.3% of the time. Is above Abaddon. (clap clap clap) Well done there. Mephiston, also AP3. Swarmlord has no Eternal Warrior, gets instant-deathed by anything Dark Eldar-y. I agree Lysander should be on the list, Kharn gets insta-deathed by Meltaguns (sucks).. I'm amazed that there isn't an Archon on here, I'd go: Shadow Field (2++), Huskblade (Instant Death), Combat Drugs (roll on the amazing table), Ghostplate Armour (for gaks and giggles), Haywire Grenades for that one shooting attack that could instant death Kharn and stuff, Blast Pistol (could instant death in overwatch)... What's there not to love in this guy?? Except his T3, but come on, he gets 5 attacks at S4 on the charge (with full pain tokens), good leadership, FnP, one of 6 awesome effects on the Combat Drugs table, a 2++ and an instant death weapon!! .-. Seriously!

Ok I could be persuaded to swap Abby and Draigo. CC wise Abbys better, I think Draigos overall better. And frankly a DEldar lord isn't that scary... way too many opponents would just punk him. Any EW chracter really. And yes, Swarmlord has a very good chance of getting EW through Iron Arm. If he does, he will b**** slap the Archon around. Even if he doesn't, the Tyrant guard he's with makes your Archon Initiative 1. And then Swarmy will kill him. I stand by the fact that Mephiston is a CC beatstick. Not a good buy overall, but in CC he's boss. Then again, I don't have any 2+ saves in my army. Kharns almost always hidden in a unit. Also, Strength 3 Instant Death isn't that good... He also probably won't have two pain token when he hits my lines unless you use Haemonculus shenanigans.

EDIT: A charging Archon inflicts about .417 wounds on the swarmlord before saves. If it's Ap. 3, that's down to basically .2, if not it's down to .139. Then, he'll probably have Iron Arm. Which gives a 2/3 chance to completely ignore your attacks. If I charge, or you don't have enough tokens, getting IA off guarantees he can't wound swarmy. Swarmy meanwhile on the charge, gets 5 attacks. That equals 3.88 hits after Preferred enemy. Roll to wound, rerolling ones, equals 3.7 wounds. Take a 2++ that you must re roll, and then you'll suffer about 1.2 wounds = dead Archon.

Honorable mention for Lord of Change in a divination abusing army. Rerollable 2++? Thank you

He's not as good as the other demon beat sticks in every game, but the fact that in around 50% of your games you can make him on par with anything in the game, and use him in other roles as well is pretty brutal.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'd really like to see these characters' damage adjusted for points cost. So instead of pure efficacy, you get an efficiency based table. However, I'm far too lazy to do that. Where's labmouse?

To do that properly, you need to take into account everything else the character can do. In which case, the Swarmlord will still wind up near the top, considering the huge range of army buffs he has plus four psychic powers (which will probably end up being Biomancy for Iron Arm, and then probebly yield Endurance and Enfeeble). He's 280pts, but he's a really mean 280pts.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Another thread about top models for challenges got me thinking. Who does everything think is the best close combat HQ units?

List your top ten close combat HQs.

For me, they are in this order;

1. Abaddon the Despoiler
2. Bloodthirster
3. Darnath Lysander
4. Ghazgul Thraka(mostly because for 2 turns he has a 2+ invuln)
5. The Swarmlord
6. Kharn the Betrayer
7. Necron Overlord(with everything, MSS, Warscythe, Semp Weave, Phase Shifter etc.)
8. The Sanguinor (with Power Axe Glaive Encarmine)
9. Kaldor Draigo (low on the list because his sword is only AP 3)
10. Lelith Hesperax

Honorable Mentions;

Mephiston - Good, but no invuln and his sword is only AP 3.
Vargard Obyron - Once again no invuln. Hits hard, but very slow.

This is a silly list, with no actual bearing on real battlefield conditions. Abaddon sucks because he moves 6" a turn and he can't sweeping advance, and neither can Lysander or Ghazgul Ghazzy isn't even fearless, and is slow and purposeful. Kharn has a 5+ invuln, T4 and no EW. The Swarmlord doesn't have an invulnerable save and moves 6" a turn. In some magical realm where HQs battle it out without any interference from the rest of the army, maybe, but this is 40k, not Gladiator.

A good CC HQ in 40k needs to have mobility (wings, sweeping advance) and survivability (invuln, high T, Eternal Warrior) , and a price tag that isn't too absurd.

1. Bloodthirster
For 250 points the BT hits the sweet spot of mobility, killyness, and survivability (Flying, 3+, 5++). Skarbrand doesn't have wings, so he's out of the running, as is any MC forced to move 6" a turn.

2. Lord of Change, 2 Greater Rewards, 1 Lesser Reward
Same principle as the Bloodthirster above but more expensive and slightly more useful in the shooting phase, and unkillable with the right combination of powers and gifts. Subject to randomness, however, so not always as good as 1.

3. Hive Tyrant with wings and Twin-Linked Devourers
Quite a standard Tyranid build, you can buff it to have some utility in CC but in general remains a big CC threat while retaining good shooting ability without any added points expenditure.

4. Tzeentch DP with Lvl 3, Armour, Wings, 2 Greater Rewards and 1 Lesser Reward
Coming in at 355 points this DP is a hell of a points sink but unstoppable if you roll well on Biomancy and your rewards. I can't say it's better than the LoC all told, since it's only 4 wounds away and one bad roll on the Biomancy chart from being an incredibly overpriced casualty, and subject to things like Perils and the usual Psyker weaknesses.

5 .Destroyer Lord with MSS and Weave
For 160 points and the ability to make anything kill itself in CC 1/2 the time, the D-Lord is a great bargain. The ability to come back after death is just icing.

6. Mephiston
Mephiston suffers from a bad rap but he still remains one of the strongest CC characters in the game- rolling on Biomancy you have a good chance of taking out any marauding charging MCs, rolling codex allows you to terrorise vehicles and anything without a 2+ save. Lack of Invuln really hurts him however, although there are ways to get around it.

7. Sammael
Sammael seems terrible on paper, but three things make him magical on the tabletop: a Jetbike, Skilled Rider and Hit and Run at I5. With scout you can threaten anything within 24" with a first turn charge, which ignores terrain (immense, if you've ever tried assaulting through cover/difficult terrain.) and while not the greatest beatstick in cc, 5+1 attacks on the charge at I5 Str 4 Ap2 is usually enough to deal with most things you want to assault rather than shoot (and let's face it, with the nerf to assault in the form of challenges you'll be killing one model on the charge most times with single model assaults) so is relatively points efficient at 200. BS 5 Plasma Cannon also means he can do something other than assault. Most importantly, he is one of the few HQs who has Hit and Run so can disengage and charge another unit if necessary- making him essentially un-tarpittable, unlike other beatstick HQs.

8. Bike mounted / TWC mounted/ Juggernaut Mounted Lord/Chapter Master/Herald/Warboss with CC weapon of doom
Same principle as Sammael, but without the added shooting, Skilled Rider, Hit and Run, or EW. Useful for threatening units and vehicles, if suitably equipped.

9. CC characters who can ride in a transports/ Jump Pack Characters
If your transport dies in the process, you're stranded moving 6" a turn. Jump packs are crap compared to bikes/mounts. Why would anyone take them instead of a bike is beyond me.

10. CC HQs moving 6" a turn
If you make it into CC, your opponent is doing something wrong.