Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

@Asmodai

I said close combat only because I did not want to write an essay on best HQ considering all of the thousands of battlefield conditions that can occur in 40k games. Perhaps, since you are willing, you should start another thread for that? I would read it. (Not being sarcastic)

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
10. CC HQs moving 6" a turn
If you make it into CC, your opponent is doing something wrong.

Well, not anymore with random charge distances. Even walking models have a potential 18" threat radius. Once the game starts getting hectic around turn 3, it's easy to misjudge a distance from a beatstick character and eat a charge.

Wow, I must say. You supporters of the Swarmlord where correct it seems. I am not going to post the results of the fights, but only because they all went pretty much the same.

Not only had my original list forgot about him getting Iron Arm or Warp Speed.....and the DECISIVE factor in these fights was something else I forgot. Successful invulns must be re-rolled.

Abaddon would usually die before he got to hit in the first round of combat.

Skarbrand's problem was, even with Fleshbane, he had trouble getting through T8, which seemed to be what the Swarmlord always had. The first time the Swarmlord attacked back, Skarbrand died, every time.

Darnath would usually put a wound or two on him, but would then die in the second round of combat.

Ghazgul was the only one who even came close to killing him, but once Ghaz's 2+ invuln was done, he died very quickly.

So, ladies and gentlemen. The Swarmlord really is superior in close combat.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
@Asmodai

I said close combat only because I did not want to write an essay on best HQ considering all of the thousands of battlefield conditions that can occur in 40k games. Perhaps, since you are willing, you should start another thread for that? I would read it. (Not being sarcastic)

This is a close combat-only list. Because these are the only competitive fieldable close-combat HQs you can bring.

The Swarmlord isn't one of them.

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
Surprised that not more people have said Logan.

Or a bear-lord with TH SH

Anti Wolf bias thats all.

Logan would put his axe through Draigo's skull every day of the week and twice on Sunday, that silly sword of Draigo's isn't going to scratch Logan's armour.

As for the Thunder Bear Lord yea he is the real deal, Str 5/10, T5, 5 attacks, Eternal Warrior, always hits on a 3+, and a 2+/3+ save. He isn't going down without one hell of a fight, I dear say he could put Lysander on his ass, sure Lysander has 1 more wound, but he only has 3 attacks and he is hitting on a 4+ when facing Logan or the Thunder Lord.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
@Asmodai

I said close combat only because I did not want to write an essay on best HQ considering all of the thousands of battlefield conditions that can occur in 40k games. Perhaps, since you are willing, you should start another thread for that? I would read it. (Not being sarcastic)

This is a close combat-only list. Because these are the only competitive fieldable close-combat HQs you can bring.

The Swarmlord isn't one of them.

The Swarmlord definitely is one of the better characters even outside of combat, given the stupendous amount of army buffing he does. His achilles heel is he's slow, but he's still definitely worth his points as both a beatstick and a support character.

All hail the Swarmlord, king of 1 on 1 fights. The only reasons the Swarmlord is no. 3 on my list instead of no. 1 is because of how cheesy Mindshackle Scarabs are in a challenge and the fact that Skarbrand is significantly cheaper and better against multiple enemies.

To be fair, that's what the Swarmlords meant to be.

In the fluff he's both a master tactician called in when the fight gets tough, and also used as a beatstick to go around and show enemy leaders who really is boss (as shown beating down Calgar (finally!) and various Ork warbosses). He does both of those excellently with the rules he has.

There's fights you definitely wouldn't send him in to though - mindshackle scarab lords being one of them.

Swarmy is more area denial and army support than offensive beatstick. You aren't going to trudge him across the board to take a back field objective. You are going to plop him and his guards next to a near or midfield objective and destroy anything else that tries to take it. In the meantime you provide a huge synapse bubble, +1 to reserve rolls (for the stuff actually designed to go across the board), and pass out endurance and/or preferred enemy to nearby units that need it.

 jifel wrote:

And frankly a DEldar lord isn't that scary... way too many opponents would just punk him. Any EW chracter really. And yes, Swarmlord has a very good chance of getting EW through Iron Arm. If he does, he will b**** slap the Archon around. Even if he doesn't, the Tyrant guard he's with makes your Archon Initiative 1. And then Swarmy will kill him. I stand by the fact that Mephiston is a CC beatstick. Not a good buy overall, but in CC he's boss. Then again, I don't have any 2+ saves in my army. Kharns almost always hidden in a unit. Also, Strength 3 Instant Death isn't that good... He also probably won't have two pain token when he hits my lines unless you use Haemonculus shenanigans.

EDIT: A charging Archon inflicts about .417 wounds on the swarmlord before saves. If it's Ap. 3, that's down to basically .2, if not it's down to .139. Then, he'll probably have Iron Arm. Which gives a 2/3 chance to completely ignore your attacks. If I charge, or you don't have enough tokens, getting IA off guarantees he can't wound swarmy. Swarmy meanwhile on the charge, gets 5 attacks. That equals 3.88 hits after Preferred enemy. Roll to wound, rerolling ones, equals 3.7 wounds. Take a 2++ that you must re roll, and then you'll suffer about 1.2 wounds = dead Archon.

An Archon with a Huskblade and a Venomblade is a nice, balanced option. Vect is very good also, but much like Draigo, scratching 2+ is hard. Vect/Archon/Drazhar are all badasses, but they are out of their league with Skarbrand, Swarmlord, Abby. They should be able to hang with most others though.

I think top 10 is pretty hard to do, once you get to like 5 or 6, you can make a case for a lot of dudes and dudettes.

I think the top 4 are pretty straight forward though, you can put them in whatever order makes you feel best.

Swarmlord
Skarbrand
Abby
Necron Lord

Then after that, it's a toss up. Anything with a 2+ and/or Eternal Warrior, a buncha attacks, or instant death. Calgar, Kharn, Khorne Lords on Juggz, Wolf Lords, Mephiston, Archons/Vect, some of the Phoenix Lords, Sanguinor, Greater Daemons...

How would the Swarmlord do vs Eldrad? Eldrad has Runes of Warding to stop a good portion of the spells a Swarmlord would have. Eldrad can also forego the codex powers and go divination for his spells or telepathy, or both.

If he decides Divination, Eldrad can get Precognition so he is re rolling all failed to hit, to wound, and saving throws.

Then he can cast Misfortune on an enemy character, causing them to re roll passed saving throws.

Or if he decided to go Telepathy he could cast Invisibility on himself and make you hit him on 5's.

He could also cast hallucination on someone so they could end up hitting themselves, or even not strike blows in close combat at all.

I think he would whittle away at some of these guys too.

But then I also think honorable mention goes to Asurmen.

This guy makes you lose an attack against him every single round of combat, is an Eternal Warrior with a 2+/4++ save, toughness 4, 4 attacks at str 4 AP3, re rolling misses, and if you fail even one of these, you have to take a leadership test or you are removed from the game. Even if you are an Eternal Warrior.

Swarmlord doesn't need his psychic powers to kill Eldrad, or protect himself from getting killed.

1. commissar Yarrick
2. Ironhand Straken
3. Techpriest w/ servitors
4. ministorum priest w/ eviscerator
5. coulour sergeant kell
6. ...
7. ...
8. ...
9. ...
10. ...

I don't care about other armies

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Without sounding fanboyish, but I think Calgar deserves a mention at least. Re-rolling hits and wounds, 2+/4++ save, 6 strength 8 attacks on the charge, WS 6, re-roll hits and wounds. Sure he's hitting at I1, but with 4 wounds and EW, he's survivable.
And let's not forget, like most people do, that he can swap his 5 PF attacks for 4 power sword attacks if you don't need to pack a huge punch, or you just need to get a quick few attacks in.

Kharn the Betrayer
7 attaks on the charge hits on 2+ and gets rerolls on first round.

Calgar can sit back down

stichfitz wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Without sounding fanboyish, but I think Calgar deserves a mention at least. Re-rolling hits and wounds, 2+/4++ save, 6 strength 8 attacks on the charge, WS 6, re-roll hits and wounds. Sure he's hitting at I1, but with 4 wounds and EW, he's survivable.
And let's not forget, like most people do, that he can swap his 5 PF attacks for 4 power sword attacks if you don't need to pack a huge punch, or you just need to get a quick few attacks in.

Kharn the Betrayer
7 attaks on the charge hits on 2+ and gets rerolls on first round.

Calgar can sit back down

You forgot they're AP2 at initiative as well.

Alot of people are missing a point about swarmlord.
Yes, he is slow, but no unit will get within 18" of him for fear of being charged.
Ive actually done more damage by using him to keep units away from an objective or another unit, rather than smashing a unit up.

Throw him 3 guards aswell with a bonesword or whips and the unit will tear through units with ease, making sure that tarpitting him becomes hopeless.

He really is a strong point in the nid dex, and well needed too.

Dosent the swarmlord still have to actually roll to get IA or Warp speed? Granted he has 4 chances at, but he can still miss right?

Edit: nevermind, forgot that if you roll the same power, you just keep rolling till you get one you dont have. Sorry, dont use psychic powers much :/

 Billagio wrote:
Dosent the swarmlord still have to actually roll to get IA or Warp speed? Granted he has 4 chances at, but he can still miss right?

That's why people have been saying it's an 80% chance to get it.

 Billagio wrote:
Edit: nevermind, forgot that if you roll the same power, you just keep rolling till you get one you dont have. Sorry, dont use psychic powers much :/

Did they change that? I thought if you rolled the same power, you could only swap for the primaris power or it was wasted? Or am I confusing that with rolling a power you can't use, like a Broodlord rolling a Witchfire power but being BS 0...

 -Loki- wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Dosent the swarmlord still have to actually roll to get IA or Warp speed? Granted he has 4 chances at, but he can still miss right?

That's why people have been saying it's an 80% chance to get it.

 Billagio wrote:
Edit: nevermind, forgot that if you roll the same power, you just keep rolling till you get one you dont have. Sorry, dont use psychic powers much :/

Did they change that? I thought if you rolled the same power, you could only swap for the primaris power or it was wasted? Or am I confusing that with rolling a power you can't use, like a Broodlord rolling a Witchfire power but being BS 0...

If you get the same power, you either re-roll or take the Primaris.

I'm sorry, I really don't see how a 280pt HQ model that can't shoot and moves 6" a turn with only T6, 5W and a 3+ is viable. And don't tell me Tyrant Guard because that's not a good answer.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I'm sorry, I really don't see how a 280pt HQ model that can't shoot and moves 6" a turn with only T6, 5W and a 3+ is viable. And don't tell me Tyrant Guard because that's not a good answer.

Because it does more than kill things? It's the games ultimate beatstick, but also has a plethora of army buffing abilities. It has a 12" Shadow in the Warp bubble. It has an 18" synapse bubble. It can give a unit within 18" Preferred Enemy or Furious Charge (for free, no test required, just give it to the unit). It gives +1 to reserve rolls, making the large quantity of Deep Striking units Tyranids like to use far more reliable. It has 4 psychic powers, and considering you'll generally roll Biomancy for Iron Arm, gives you the same access to Enfeeble and Endurance. Enfeeble is great for Tyranids, since it makes enemies you'd like to engage in assault both easier to wound and weaker on return hits (for example, power fist/thunder hammers are suddnely wounding your MC's on 4's instead of 2's), while Endurance lets you hand out FnP. On top of that, as people said, the excellent area denial he does since people just don't want to get near him.

All of these things are very, very useful for Tyranids. So, taking a Hive Tyrant which variants are already the default HQ in most games, amping its stats up (even wounds up to 5), amping up its melee ability to 11, and pile on a bunch of upgrades that make him an excellent army buffer.

 -Loki- wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I'm sorry, I really don't see how a 280pt HQ model that can't shoot and moves 6" a turn with only T6, 5W and a 3+ is viable. And don't tell me Tyrant Guard because that's not a good answer.

Because it does more than kill things? It's the games ultimate beatstick, but also has a plethora of army buffing abilities. It has a 12" Shadow in the Warp bubble. It has an 18" synapse bubble. It can give a unit within 18" Preferred Enemy or Furious Charge (for free, no test required, just give it to the unit). It gives +1 to reserve rolls, making the large quantity of Deep Striking units Tyranids like to use far more reliable. It has 4 psychic powers, and considering you'll generally roll Biomancy for Iron Arm, gives you the same access to Enfeeble and Endurance. Enfeeble is great for Tyranids, since it makes enemies you'd like to engage in assault both easier to wound and weaker on return hits (for example, power fist/thunder hammers are suddnely wounding your MC's on 4's instead of 2's), while Endurance lets you hand out FnP. On top of that, as people said, the excellent area denial he does since people just don't want to get near him.

All of these things are very, very useful for Tyranids. So, taking a Hive Tyrant which variants are already the default HQ in most games, amping its stats up (even wounds up to 5), amping up its melee ability to 11, and pile on a bunch of upgrades that make him an excellent army buffer.

He doesn't provide anything that a HT or Tervigon can't provide. Shadow, Preferred Enemy, Synapse- you get these things from Tervigons and Tyrants. Swarmlord doesn't add anything special other than the 18" bubble.

Biomancy is common to nids, and odds are you'll get several enfeebles/endurances, so having four doesn't really make a huge difference. Also, with his limited walking speed the things you'll be able to enfeeble are limited.

This doesn't stop him from dying on turn one or two every game to a competent shooting army.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He doesn't provide anything that a HT or Tervigon can't provide. Shadow, Preferred Enemy, Synapse- you get these things from Tervigons and Tyrants. Swarmlord doesn't add anything special other than the 18" bubble.

Biomancy is common to nids, and odds are you'll get several enfeebles/endurances, so having four doesn't really make a huge difference. Also, with his limited walking speed the things you'll be able to enfeeble are limited.

This doesn't stop him from dying on turn one or two every game to a competent shooting army.

Preferred Enemy and +1 on the reserve table are alternate selections on the Hive Tyrant. The Swarmlord has both, plus can hand out Furious Charge. So there's things the hive Tyrant can't do.

As for Biomancy, yes it's common. A mastery level 2 psyker is not (note that all Tyranids are master level 1, even if they have 4 powers, outside of the Swarmlord). He also gets 4 powers rather than the Hive Tyrants 2, and a Tervigon gets very expensive throwing all 4 psychic powers on it.

yes, odds are you'll have several enfeebles/endurances. You know what's better for an army that is mostly 5+ saves and S3? More Endurance and Enfeeble (especially considering Enfeeble stacks).

People letting their Swarmlord die on turn 1 aren't playing very well. it's like saying 'Well, that Guard player not shooting the Lascannons on his Vendettas won't win many games'.

The point is, yes he does what the Hive Tyrant does. All of it, even all of the options you can only have one of, brings more to the table psychic wise than any other Tyranid, and is on the very solid framework of a Hive Tyrant that's been amped up even further.

if you, personally, can't find a use for that, great. That doesn't mean it's not there, and that others aren't having success with it.

my vote goes for the wolf lord on tw mount, with a powerfist, storm shield, runic armor, wolftooth necklace and saga of the bear, it is expensive, yes, but it is a beast on close combat, always hitting on 3´s, 5 str 10 attacks, 6 on charge, t5 and s5, sv 2+/3++ and eternal warrior, what you asking for then?, hits at i1, but you can swap the fist for a wolf claw and re-roll to wound, a true beast; my wolf lord has face the swarm lord and then add a new purple stain in his fist , even kill several times a bloodthisters on epics challenges
a true hairy beast