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I can't say I know every type of shotgun in the game but the ones I do know of are rubbish.
I can't figure out for the life of me why they even exist.
The only ones I really know of are space marine scouts, where the other options make more sense.
Why would you choose shotguns when you have a bolter with an AP value or a pistol and combat blade?

I personally think they should have been more like assault 2 12" S6 AP- with a shotgun rule like melta. I.e. if in 6" the weapon is +2S and AP3 or something. (To represent the stopping power)

Can anyone suggest a use for them?

On scouts, the difference between a shotgun and a bolter is that you can charge afterwards.

Vs the BP/CCW, you're giving up one attack in CC for an extra attack in assault. I'd say you want the shotgun against high initiative close combat enemies (kill as many as possible on the charge) and the BP/CCW against enemy non-close combat specialists (best chance of breaking them in combat through casualties).

I'd like to see shotguns as strength 2 ap- template weapons. Weak, but a big spread of shot.

I would rather see it as a multi mode scatter shot (template) slug/buck (assault) that way wen getting assaulted you can wall of lead during over watch .

 Evileyes wrote:
I'd like to see shotguns as strength 2 ap- template weapons. Weak, but a big spread of shot.

That's not how shotguns work. Despite what ten years of video games might tell you, a shotgun's ammo does not turn into cotton candy once it's gone five feet past the barrel, nor does it have the spread of "sideways" . The point of shotguns is that it's easier to hit far away target with it than with a rifle with the same damage done.

imperial guard veterans can also have them and, until 6th editions boost to rapid fire and hideous nerf to close combat, they were the best option.

I think that touches on the real issue. I've yet to see a game, video, tabletop, whatever, that accurately portrays a shotgun. Based on what one sees in games, it's amazing that people can go hunting birds, or shooting clay pigeons with shotguns. I don't understand the outrageous discrepancy.

I'd argue that the way they are portrayed in games is more to do with mechanics than an actual representation of how they work. You get to choose a weapon based on high power, high chance of hitting at short range, low accuracy and low power at long range. It's a nice pay off that works well in games with a dual weapon choice system. Game designers aren't all idiots...

However in 40K, I'm not entirely sure how you'd represent them in a realistic way. Although that's not what 40k is about. Making them template weapons would be pretty weak, especially considering you'd lose a HUGE amount of firepower as generally only a few members of the squad would ever be able to fire. I like the way they are currently. Essentially you trade off range for the ability to charge afterwards. For no price. It works, shot guns are a viable choice for Demolitions Vets and Scouts in a storm. Other than that, the option to charge is rarely worth it.

Doom's shotgun (yes, that Doom) it's actually fairly accurate, the pellets have a small cone of fire and you can do quite a bit of damage to enemies far away. Of course, then the Super Shotgun came out with Doom 2, and that's probably what most people think of when they think of "shotgun"

Shotguns are kinda underwhelming but then again they would be compared to all the advanced tech flying around the 41st millennium.

The only thing wrong imo is their strength is so low. A shotgun is more powerful than an assault rife (s3) so should probably be S4, AP4.

Marine shotguns are str4.

Remember that Str4 is the same as a Bolter. An armor piercing explosive round.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Marine shotguns are str4.

Remember that Str4 is the same as a Bolter. An armor piercing explosive round.

Ok, but an Ap value?
Let's say, as someone said before, they'd have a melta-like rule: within 6" your AP is... mmm... 4? Without 6" is -. Now the whole "i'll shot you in the face and THEN I'll charge right into you with the Assault 2 rule" is worth it.

I could see something with them having two profiles, one for slugs (S3/4 [guard/marine] AP6) and another for small-ish buckshot (i.e., #4). Template (S2/3 [guard/marine] AP-) would mimic fairly well the divergent paths of the pellets. It's not "to scale", but neither is the assumption that a bolter would have an effective range of 4x the distance someone can walk in a few seconds.

Shotguns do have their uses. As already said the fact that you can charge after firing adds versatility to it. I usually have at least one in my melee scout squads (depending on squad size). They are hard to represent in the rules properly. Making them a template weapon does not make sense to me. Assault 2 is better because basically with one shot you have a chance to hit another target because of the spread. AP is kinda beyond a shotgun but the strength can be debatable.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Doom's shotgun (yes, that Doom) it's actually fairly accurate, the pellets have a small cone of fire and you can do quite a bit of damage to enemies far away. Of course, then the Super Shotgun came out with Doom 2, and that's probably what most people think of when they think of "shotgun"

Yeah. Sawed-off shotguns are wildly illegal (and useless for military purposes), but they get a lot of play in pop culture because they look so awesome. The spread on a normal-barreled shotgun, as mentioned above, really just lets you be slightly off-target and still hit. Rather than a template, a better way to represent it would be to count as +1 BS or twin-linked or something.

Shotguns are a jack of all trades weapon that is kinda "meh" at everything. Perfect for marines.

Bolters are better at shooting, but only in certain situations. If you are in close range shooting at something with a 4+ armor save, they work just as well. Long range and light/no armored targets bolters work better.

If you are going into CC, the BP/CCW might be a better call. Depends on the WS and I of your target. Against most things you are going to have the same to hit (4+) so that's probably not going to come up. If you are fighting WS 2 or 7 targets, you gear is probably not going to matter. The initiative is a bigger deal. Unloading the shotguns into faster targets will cause some wounds before they rip you open. That's worth loosing the extra CC attack.

Being assault weapons they keep your options open. Which is a nice thing to have. They make a nice TAC choice for aggressively deployed scouts. I like mixing them with BP/CCW scouts for when I have a squad of them trekking around my opponent's backfield.

And at the end of the day, they look awesome. I mean, come on, shotguns! Even scout bikers who have -NO- reason to use them have them standard issue. Because that's how they roll, and shotguns make everything cooler...

LSS are open topped transports. You can move up, hop out, unload and charge. Or just drive-by shotgun things for the shear joy of it. Best use of points/FOC slots? Probably not. Fun? Heck yah!

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
I'd like to see shotguns as strength 2 ap- template weapons. Weak, but a big spread of shot.

That's not how shotguns work. Despite what ten years of video games might tell you, a shotgun's ammo does not turn into cotton candy once it's gone five feet past the barrel, nor does it have the spread of "sideways" . The point of shotguns is that it's easier to hit far away target with it than with a rifle with the same damage done.

And the flamer template doesn't really show how flamers work either. But for cinematic effect, that's how they are shown.

Uriah Jacobus' shotgun isn't that bad. Str 4, ap4, 24",assault 2.

They should give it differing ammo types

Slugs: As is, gain +1 to hit within 6" range

Xenoshot (play off Bird and Buckshot. ): Template

It isn't the shotgun they have incorrect, it's the ammunition. In reality shotguns can be anything depending on the shell. You can use super fine pellets, some heavy gauge shot, or even a slug which makes them more like a rifle. If it were up to me i'd treat shotguns like assault missile launchers. Give them frag shells that are assault 2/3 str 3 ap- or krak shells which are assault 1 str 4 ap 4. Or, if you prefer the range mechanic which i don't see as a bad idea, ie 18" assault 1, 12" assault 2, 6" assault 3", thus signifying short range = less aim time more spray and pray.

however, i don't know how many of you shoot guns in real life, but if you put some high gauge bird shot in a shot gun, at 100 yds it won't break the skin, but at 10 it'll go through you.

I have little doubt the unstoppable Remington 870 design will last 40000 years to fight alongside las guns. Mines seen quite a bit of abuse.

I also dislike the game mechanics as is, but there isn't of playable options. Multiple profiles is ungainly and basically a Grenade Launcher lite.

You're sacrificing range with the ability to charge, and the units that you can take shotguns on are not the kind of units you want in assault: Veterans, Scouts etc.. xD

 HisDivineShadow wrote:
I have little doubt the unstoppable Remington 870 design will last 40000 years to fight alongside las guns. Mines seen quite a bit of abuse.

Fair enough, but if any gun's going to last that long, I think it'll be the good old AK. Heck, take care of one properly and it might actually survive the whole time (axe of my grandfather style, though)

Nowhere says the auto gun is not an AK :-)

Any of our modern firearms would be called Autoguns. Its a catchall phrase for solid slug weapons.

Boniface wrote:
I personally think they should have been more like assault 2 12" S6 AP- with a shotgun rule like melta. I.e. if in 6" the weapon is +2S and AP3 or something. (To represent the stopping power)

So within 6" it would be S8 Ap3? I think your sense of 40k scale is off. S3 ap- is fitting for conventional human-scale small arms. Assault 2 reflects the comparative ease of aiming and the 12" maximum range reflects their greater loss of power at range compared to rifles. It just happens that in 40k human-scale small arms aren't terribly powerful and the people who normally carry them don't normally want to assault.

 Raxmei wrote:

Boniface wrote:
I personally think they should have been more like assault 2 12" S6 AP- with a shotgun rule like melta. I.e. if in 6" the weapon is +2S and AP3 or something. (To represent the stopping power)

So within 6" it would be S8 Ap3? I think your sense of 40k scale is off. S3 ap- is fitting for conventional human-scale small arms. Assault 2 reflects the comparative ease of aiming and the 12" maximum range reflects their greater loss of power at range compared to rifles. It just happens that in 40k human-scale small arms aren't terribly powerful and the people who normally carry them don't normally want to assault.

Yeah that is indeed quite a bit to much..

Reading through this thread reminds me just how little people know about how an actual shotgun works...

What about something simple like reroll 1's to hit? A slight accuracy boost, but nothing too extreme.