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 ruminator wrote:
FA etc. Forgeworld gives one codex about 20 HS choices and 2 or 3 others no HS choices at all. That's an inherent balance issue.

Except that those "20" choices are really 2-3 real choices (at most) and 17-18 "choices" that you're never going to take (endless different Leman Russ variants that all suck, for example). Meanwhile Eldar, for example, don't get as many units but the units they do get are game-changing upgrades. Warp Hunters are the default heavy support choice for Eldar, Nightwings finally give them AA, and Hornets are what Vypers wish they could be. Does it really matter that Eldar don't also get a bunch of weak units that they aren't going to use anyway? Not really.

Glocknall wrote:
Specific examples are the Sabre. More durable than a Hydra or HWT, cheaper, gets skyfire and interceptor, and can accept orders. Its just way better than a HWT and makes flyers completely irrelevant.

And guess what: Hydras and HWS are bad units. You can remove Sabres entirely and you're not going to get people to take Hydras or HWS. Complaining that Sabres make bad units obsolete makes about as much sense as complaining that veterans make penal legion squads obsolete.

Thudd Gun getting 12 small blast barrage at str 5 is miles better than any similar Codex unit. Being artillery its even more durable as it can hide out of LOS. 150 points. Completely better than a T-Fire cannon or a Griffon or HWT mortar. Not even close.

This is a joke, right? Griffons are much better than thudd guns (better STR/AP, can actually hit more than one model per shot, twin-linked for better accuracy), and FW even makes a Griffon-stats (except not twin-linked) heavy mortar as an option for the thudd gun unit. The only thing wrong with the thudd gun is that the completely idiotic barrage rules in 6th make resolving a 12-shot barrage weapon a nightmare.

Vulture. A vector dancing flyer with twinlinked punisher cannons and strafing run. Better than a Valkyrie or punisher tank.

And guess why FW had to make the Vulture so good: because anything less powerful was just ignored in favor of the Vendetta (a codex unit). The current Vulture is just barely good enough to compete with the Vendetta and, like the Sabre vs. Hydra/HWS comparison, removing the Vulture doesn't get anyone to play with Valkyries. Valkyries are already made unplayable by the existence of the Vendetta, the Vulture can't have any effect on them.

Forgeworld differs from some of the power units in Codex units as they trump and replace Codex units, and usually at a points reduction.

Hardly, you've been able to name barely a handful of units that you think are overpowered.

Specific examples are the Sabre. More durable than a Hydra or HWT, cheaper, gets skyfire and interceptor, and can accept orders. Its just way better than a HWT and makes flyers completely irrelevant.

Sabres are great, but they aren't more durable than a Hydra. Granted, the Hydra is pretty bad right now. They are a very potent Anti-flyer unit, but I fail to see how that's a bad thing. The Tau has several potent Anti-flyer mechanisms now, and it's not a bad thing at all. One again, a Good unit, but not OP.

Thudd Gun getting 12 small blast barrage at str 5 is miles better than any similar Codex unit. Being artillery its even more durable as it can hide out of LOS. 150 points. Completely better than a T-Fire cannon or a Griffon or HWT mortar. Not even close.

I don't have the book this is featured in, so I can't comment on it.

Vulture. A vector dancing flyer with twinlinked punisher cannons and strafing run. Better than a Valkyrie or punisher tank.

Well, for one it doesn't transport like a Valk, and the punisher cannon skyrockets the cost. It also becomes it's only weapon. You also can't take them in squadrons. It's a very good vehicle, but it's not OP by any stretch of the imagination. I'd be much more concerned about Scythes, squads of vendettas, and Heldrakes than these.

Mantis Libby stuff

I don't have the book for this either, but it hardly sounds OP from your description.

Is that specific enough?

I haven't seen anything so far, that points to these FW units being more OP than the things found in normal GW, so I guess you'll have to keep digging.

Scythes and Dettas are not even in the same league as the units I posted above.

You're right, theiy are in a league above the units you have posted.

Scythe spam hasn't won a single GT to my knowledge while Alan Barajomialkdals (who was running sabres and artillery) nearly won BAO, and only lost in the finals to Flamer and Screamer demons with dice that were absolutely on fire. He also knocked out the third place player Doug Johnson who was running FW sabres and arty pieces.

So, he lost, Correct? There were also plenty of players in the top 10 without FW units.

Adepticon didn't have Scythe Spam win, but it was shown to be an integral part of the winning lists.

Glocknall wrote:
Forgeworld differs from some of the power units in Codex units as they trump and replace Codex units, and usually at a points reduction.

Specific examples are the Sabre. More durable than a Hydra or HWT, cheaper, gets skyfire and interceptor, and can accept orders. Its just way better than a HWT and makes flyers completely irrelevant.

HWS's are garbage however, saying they're better than them doesn't mean much, Sabre's are also Ld7. Could they likely use a points increase? Perhaps, but they also don't make flyers completely irrelevant, especially as they can be neutralized before the flyers come in with just a couple failed saves (force that Ld7 test). IIRC they're also completely immobile.

Thudd Gun getting 12 small blast barrage at str 5 is miles better than any similar Codex unit. Being artillery its even more durable as it can hide out of LOS. 150 points. Completely better than a T-Fire cannon or a Griffon or HWT mortar. Not even close.

Griffon gets to re-roll scatter and can move and take a Heavy Flamer, TFire cannon comes with a 2+sv BS4 Techpriest and a cover reinforcement with better blasts, the Thudd Gun whiffs a good amount of the time (barrage fire with no reroll means pretty much you're firing at effectively BS2 and hoping you get that Hit roll on the initial scatter die or you've likely wasted all those blasts) and cannot hurt most vehicles, can't move, and is Ld7.

Vulture. A vector dancing flyer with twinlinked punisher cannons and strafing run. Better than a Valkyrie or punisher tank.

Valkyries by themselves are transports, Vultures are not, not a good comparison. Punishers have never been considered very good (so the Vulture being better doesn't say much) and occupy an entirely different FoC slot if I'm not mistaken. Vultures without Punisher cannons aren't particularly scary at all, it's only with that one weapon loadout that they become somewhat scary, and still aren't as silly as the Codex-included Vendetta.


The Character I'll grant you is silly, but a very rare exception.

Is that specific enough?

HelDrakes are a point taken. A huge unforced error by GW. Still hoping they will be FAQed back to normalcy.

Scythes and Dettas are not even in the same league as the units I posted above.

Vendettas most certainly are, worse even, and I own three. On what basis is a 130pt AV12 EA equipped flyer transport with 3 TL Lascannons worse than a Vulture. Massed scythes are a huge issue.

Scythe spam hasn't won a single GT to my knowledge

They placed fairly well at Adepticon

while Alan Barajomialkdals (who was running sabres and artillery) nearly won BAO, and only lost in the finals to Flamer and Screamer demons with dice that were absolutely on fire. He also knocked out the third place player Doug Johnson who was running FW sabres and arty pieces.

Still lost, and such armies haven't been utterly dominating other events allowing FW.

People talking quite a bit of rubbish in this thread.

Yes, some FW stuff is under powered, and yes some of it is overpowered, but the overpowered stuff tends to be -VERY- overpowered.

Mantis War Libby, silly.

The thudd gun.. very silly. 150 pts for a unit with 9 toughness 7 wounds that drops 12 str5 templates a turn is crazy. Crazy. Those templates can scatter across multiple units, and drop huge numbers of wounds every time the gun fires; But the biggest problem with the gun is 98% of people will have no idea what it is or what it does when you plonk it on the table.

"Vector Dancer isn't that bad" uhm.. have you played against it? A flyer with TL punisher cannons that ignores the normal rules for flyers (such as having to move a required distance each turn) is silly.

So yeah, the whole of FW isn't broken, not remotely, but the few things that are OP are game breaking. Especially in the hands of players with some skill.

Hetelic wrote:
People talking quite a bit of rubbish in this thread.

Yes, some FW stuff is under powered, and yes some of it is overpowered, but the overpowered stuff tends to be -VERY- overpowered.

Mantis War Libby, silly.

The thudd gun.. very silly. 150 pts for a unit with 9 toughness 7 wounds that drops 12 str5 templates a turn is crazy. Crazy. Those templates can scatter across multiple units, and drop huge numbers of wounds every time the gun fires; But the biggest problem with the gun is 98% of people will have no idea what it is or what it does when you plonk it on the table.

"Vector Dancer isn't that bad" uhm.. have you played against it? A flyer with TL punisher cannons that ignores the normal rules for flyers (such as having to move a required distance each turn) is silly.

So yeah, the whole of FW isn't broken, not remotely, but the few things that are OP are game breaking. Especially in the hands of players with some skill.

Yeah, I guess if you want to ignore the 3 well thought out, and reasoned posts above this one, your stance makes perfect sense.

Hetelic wrote:
12 str5 templates a turn is crazy

12 STR 5 AP 5 small blasts. The total area covered by those blasts is only about 50% more than a single large blast, with the large blasts usually having much better strength and AP. Unless you're hitting a unit packed in as close as possible (2" coherency limit? What's that?) you're not really doing better than a codex Griffon.

(And let's not forget that Griffons are generally considered too weak to be useful in a competitive list.)

Those templates can scatter across multiple units

No they can't. Go read the multiple-shot barrage rules.

But the biggest problem with the gun is 98% of people will have no idea what it is or what it does when you plonk it on the table.

Then you show them the rules for it, just like you'd deal with a codex unit that someone isn't familiar with.

"Vector Dancer isn't that bad" uhm.. have you played against it? A flyer with TL punisher cannons that ignores the normal rules for flyers (such as having to move a required distance each turn) is silly.

Vector dancer doesn't remove the minimum movement distance.

Sabres are not OP

Okay, I don't know no how to have a conversation when you simply deny the existence of fact. No IG infantry unit gets Twin Linked. Or Sky Fire and interceptor. Or is Artillery. Sabres get all of these nearly for free over HWTs. You can easily spam them. They Score. They absolutely negate any flier. They punish reserves. They have so many strengths and very few weakness, CC you say? You'll never get there because 50 Guardsman and an Aegis protect them. Just because HWTs are bad doesnt mean its smart make them clearly overpowered. Force LD you say? Too bad I took a Lord Commissar as my compulsory HQ choice.

Griffons are better than thudd guns

Again a denial of reality. 12 small blasts will always net you a ton of hits, even on maximum displacement. Why? Multiple Barrage Rules. If you roll a Hit! you get to place the template anywhere where its in contact with another template. So you take your best shot and place your hits near it netting you at least 2-3 hits per Hit! rolled. See that one model just a little too close to another because of terrain or human error. You just stacked 10+ hits on it.

Vulture is not OP

Its probably the least broken of these terribly broken units but its still broken. Its the most agile flier in the game. Of course IG are known for their aerial stunts.....20 shots, twin linked at BS4. From a Vector Dancer flier platform. The combination of those things means its the best anti infantry unit in the game. Well maybe except the Thudd Gun.

Mantis Libby

Really, not OP? Have you thought about the ramifications of a Prescienced, Shrouded, Infiltrating Guard Blob w/ defensive grenades. With Infiltrating Terminators in an LR Redeemer.? Its the most hilariously broken thing I have seen in 40k. And I played against Gav's Assault Cannon/Cyclone Wolf Guard in 2ed.

BAO

Just watch the game between Liz and Alan on YouTube. Basically it took the most broken army list ever conceived and a massive amount of luck to beat Alan's FW list. Also no army lists were collected at the BAO due to administrative problems. So we have no idea how much FW was taken.

I love the FW models, most of their units are fine or even UP. But when you argue for universal acceptance of FW you have to take these bad apples with you. And these will be the units you see in tournament play.

 Sasori wrote:

Hetelic wrote:
People talking quite a bit of rubbish in this thread.

Yes, some FW stuff is under powered, and yes some of it is overpowered, but the overpowered stuff tends to be -VERY- overpowered.

Mantis War Libby, silly.

The thudd gun.. very silly. 150 pts for a unit with 9 toughness 7 wounds that drops 12 str5 templates a turn is crazy. Crazy. Those templates can scatter across multiple units, and drop huge numbers of wounds every time the gun fires; But the biggest problem with the gun is 98% of people will have no idea what it is or what it does when you plonk it on the table.

"Vector Dancer isn't that bad" uhm.. have you played against it? A flyer with TL punisher cannons that ignores the normal rules for flyers (such as having to move a required distance each turn) is silly.

So yeah, the whole of FW isn't broken, not remotely, but the few things that are OP are game breaking. Especially in the hands of players with some skill.

Yeah, I guess if you want to ignore the 3 well thought out, and reasoned posts above this one, your stance makes perfect sense.

I don't get what your trying to say?

My thoughts aren't valid because the 3 posts before this say otherwise?

Or my post isn't good because it disagrees with the 3 posts above?

Please explain.

Ultimately, when players decide to spend time trawling through the IA books prior to Adepticon, to build their lists, you've got to assume theres a reason for it. The fact most teams branched into forgeworld books for the team event would suggest that the units contained within are superior to their Codex counterparts, but that's just my reading between the lines.

Seems like there's not much point arguing against FW fanboys because FW is fine, so I'm out. Have fun smashing noobs with low-cost high damage units, safe in the knowledge its not OP, and you don't need to feel bad about tabling them cause you're toys are "balanced"

Glocknall wrote:
Sabres get all of these nearly for free over HWTs.

And HWS are garbage. Saying Sabres are overpowered because they're better than HWS makes about as much sense as saying that platoons are overpowered because they're better than penal legions.

See that one model just a little too close to another because of terrain or human error. You just stacked 10+ hits on it.

Assuming the initial shot doesn't scatter away into a position where you're struggling to get even a few hits.

Also, 10+ hits isn't all that impressive from a STR 5 AP 5 weapon. Against marines that's only 2.22 dead models, and that's the optimistic best-case scenario.

Its probably the least broken of these terribly broken units but its still broken. Its the most agile flier in the game. Of course IG are known for their aerial stunts.....20 shots, twin linked at BS4. From a Vector Dancer flier platform. The combination of those things means its the best anti infantry unit in the game. Well maybe except the Thudd Gun.

Yeah, the best anti-infantry unit in the game, which can kill 10-11 guardsmen a turn, assuming they're not in cover, or about 4-5 marines. That's just amazing firepower, it's even slightly better than Tau basic troops (per point) as long as the Fire Warriors aren't using markerlights.

With Infiltrating Terminators in an LR Redeemer.?

Too bad you can't infiltrate if you have a transport, and terminators don't get the infiltrate rule. Seriously, read the rules carefully before complaining about them.

(And of course it wouldn't do very much anyway, since you can't assault first turn if you infiltrate, and if you have to wait until second turn you're not getting much benefit over normal terminators in a LR.)

Just watch the game between Liz and Alan on YouTube. Basically it took the most broken army list ever conceived and a massive amount of luck to beat Alan's FW list. Also no army lists were collected at the BAO due to administrative problems. So we have no idea how much FW was taken.

Shocking, someone almost won a tournament. Would you be demanding bans of every unit involved if the second-place list had just used codex stuff? Or is only FW subject to the "never allowed to win a tournament" rule?

Hetelic wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Hetelic wrote:
People talking quite a bit of rubbish in this thread.

Yes, some FW stuff is under powered, and yes some of it is overpowered, but the overpowered stuff tends to be -VERY- overpowered.

Mantis War Libby, silly.

The thudd gun.. very silly. 150 pts for a unit with 9 toughness 7 wounds that drops 12 str5 templates a turn is crazy. Crazy. Those templates can scatter across multiple units, and drop huge numbers of wounds every time the gun fires; But the biggest problem with the gun is 98% of people will have no idea what it is or what it does when you plonk it on the table.

"Vector Dancer isn't that bad" uhm.. have you played against it? A flyer with TL punisher cannons that ignores the normal rules for flyers (such as having to move a required distance each turn) is silly.

So yeah, the whole of FW isn't broken, not remotely, but the few things that are OP are game breaking. Especially in the hands of players with some skill.

Yeah, I guess if you want to ignore the 3 well thought out, and reasoned posts above this one, your stance makes perfect sense.

I don't get what your trying to say?

My thoughts aren't valid because the 3 posts before this say otherwise?

Or my post isn't good because it disagrees with the 3 posts above?

Please explain.

Ultimately, when players decide to spend time trawling through the IA books prior to Adepticon, to build their lists, you've got to assume theres a reason for it. The fact most teams branched into forgeworld books for the team event would suggest that the units contained within are superior to their Codex counterparts, but that's just my reading between the lines.

Seems like there's not much point arguing against FW fanboys because FW is fine, so I'm out. Have fun smashing noobs with low-cost high damage units, safe in the knowledge its not OP, and you don't need to feel bad about tabling them cause you're toys are "balanced"

Your post isn't good, because it has no reasoning or valid comparisons to back it up. Vakatahi and Peregrine quite clearly have shown why those units are not OP. You, on the other hand, were just speaking "rubbish".

Why wouldn't people take IA units in a tournament that allowed them? There are plenty of fun, and flavorful units, as well as solid units in those books.

You don't need FW to smash noobs with low-cost high damage units either. I can do that with Scythe-spam, or do a IG & SW list. Or a myriad of other ways that do not involve Forgeworld.

Hetelic wrote:
Ultimately, when players decide to spend time trawling through the IA books prior to Adepticon, to build their lists, you've got to assume theres a reason for it. The fact most teams branched into forgeworld books for the team event would suggest that the units contained within are superior to their Codex counterparts, but that's just my reading between the lines.

Ultimately, when players decide to spend time trawling through the codex books prior to Adepticon, to build their lists, you've got to assume theres a reason for it. The fact most teams branched into codex books for the team event would suggest that the units contained within are superior to their FW counterparts, but that's just my reading between the lines.

I just love how there's this bizarre assumption that FW units are only acceptable as long as they're never good enough that anyone would ever want to use them.

 Peregrine wrote:

Hetelic wrote:
Ultimately, when players decide to spend time trawling through the IA books prior to Adepticon, to build their lists, you've got to assume theres a reason for it. The fact most teams branched into forgeworld books for the team event would suggest that the units contained within are superior to their Codex counterparts, but that's just my reading between the lines.

Ultimately, when players decide to spend time trawling through the codex books prior to Adepticon, to build their lists, you've got to assume theres a reason for it. The fact most teams branched into codex books for the team event would suggest that the units contained within are superior to their FW counterparts, but that's just my reading between the lines.

I just love how there's this bizarre assumption that FW units are only acceptable as long as they're never good enough that anyone would ever want to use them.

People "branch" into their codex for units because its how the game is played. FW is the outlier here, not an army's Codex. Silly statement.

Again argue the worth of these units or simply concede the point.

Glocknall wrote:


I love the FW models, most of their units are fine or even UP. But when you argue for universal acceptance of FW you have to take these bad apples with you. And these will be the units you see in tournament play.

And how is this any different than a regular GW Codex army? Tournement play will bring all of the powerfull units in a Codex and leave out the weak ones. How many IG tourney lists include Rattlings? How many Necron lists include Flayed Ones? How about a Tryanid list with maxed out Pryovores?

Forgeworld units are exactly the same as GW units. A few great ones that get spammed, a large amount of average units and a few really crappy ones. Most of your argument is just power gamers afraid of being out power gamed.

Glocknall wrote:
People "branch" into their codex for units because its how the game is played. FW is the outlier here, not an army's Codex. Silly statement.

According to GW, FW is "how the game is played".

Again argue the worth of these units or simply concede the point.

I already have argued the worth of the units. That doesn't mean I can't point out the ridiculous argument being implied here, that FW is only acceptable if it's always weaker than codex options and never wins tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
Most of your argument is just power gamers afraid of being out power gamed.

I think this is it, really. It's not that FW is more powerful, or that a FW-legal metagame is less interesting than a no-FW metagame, it's that it would be a different metagame and shatter all the nice safe rules that certain tournament players have become comfortable with and force them to change their armies to adapt.

Hetelic wrote:
People talking quite a bit of rubbish in this thread.

Yes, some FW stuff is under powered, and yes some of it is overpowered, but the overpowered stuff tends to be -VERY- overpowered.

Mantis War Libby, silly.

The thudd gun.. very silly. 150 pts for a unit with 9 toughness 7 wounds that drops 12 str5 templates a turn is crazy. Crazy. Those templates can scatter across multiple units, and drop huge numbers of wounds every time the gun fires; But the biggest problem with the gun is 98% of people will have no idea what it is or what it does when you plonk it on the table.

They *can* scatter, but it's all tied to the initial blast, which has a 1/3 chance of landing on target (if it's fired as a barrage, no BS adjustement for scatter) and otherwise a very high chance to do absolutely nothing. Being small blasts, unless you're tightly clumped up, they're unlikely to score a huge number of hits either way. Remember that the Thudd Guns are also Ld7 and Immobile.

"Vector Dancer isn't that bad" uhm.. have you played against it? A flyer with TL punisher cannons that ignores the normal rules for flyers (such as having to move a required distance each turn) is silly.

Vector Dancer does not remove that IIRC, and it's still nowhere near as bad as a Vendetta or a Heldrake.

So yeah, the whole of FW isn't broken, not remotely, but the few things that are OP are game breaking. Especially in the hands of players with some skill.

If true, how is that different than normal codex stuff though?

Glocknall wrote:

Sabres are not OP

Okay, I don't know no how to have a conversation when you simply deny the existence of fact. No IG infantry unit gets Twin Linked. Or Sky Fire and interceptor. Or is Artillery. Sabres get all of these nearly for free over HWTs.

Which as explained, are typically considered poor units and comparing them isn't great because of that.

You can easily spam them. They Score. They absolutely negate any flier.

Methinks you're giving them a bit much credit. they're good, but they don't come close to automatically shutting down flyers. Even if they did, some would say that's not a bad thing.

They punish reserves.

So does a quad gun or anything with Interceptor.

They have so many strengths and very few weakness,

Such as being completely immobile and Ld7

CC you say? You'll never get there because 50 Guardsman and an Aegis protect them.

So you're magically always able to prevent anything from getting into CC? ok, sure. All Aegis lines will do is force a difficult terrain test if one isn't there already.

Just because HWTs are bad doesnt mean its smart make them clearly overpowered. Force LD you say? Too bad I took a Lord Commissar as my compulsory HQ choice.

And it's usually not exactly impossible to remove a Lord Commissar, and if they're keeping all their units close enough to him to benefit from his Ld bubble, it means you can better concentrate your own forces/blast weapons, and they're restricting their placement.

Again a denial of reality. 12 small blasts will always net you a ton of hits, even on maximum displacement. Why? Multiple Barrage Rules. If you roll a Hit! you get to place the template anywhere where its in contact with another template. So you take your best shot and place your hits near it netting you at least 2-3 hits per Hit! rolled.

Sure, per Hit rolled.

On average, from a full battery, assuming each scatter result gets one-half of a hit to average it out (sometimes more, often nothing), and *assuming* your initial shot managed the one-in-three chance of an on-target Hit, that'll average out to scoring ~5 hits (and a grand total of 1.11 dead marines or ~3 dead orks if they weren't in cover), assuming your initial shot doesn't go into la-la-land 66% of the time.

Does it have a very high *potential*? Yes, if you catch a super-clumped up Ork Mob that's not sitting in cover with a ton of Hit results, it'll be bloody and nasty, but the same luck with say, a trio of griffons would get you the same thing. The Thudd Gun's *average* (that is, its expected) damage output isn't that scary.

See that one model just a little too close to another because of terrain or human error. You just stacked 10+ hits on it.

Assuming the unit is clumped up and you roll notably better than average perhaps.

Its probably the least broken of these terribly broken units but its still broken. Its the most agile flier in the game.

Did we miss the Eldar flyers?

Of course IG are known for their aerial stunts.....20 shots, twin linked at BS4.

And S5 AP- there's a reason nobody cared about this weapon on an AV14 battle tank either.

From a Vector Dancer flier platform. The combination of those things means its the best anti infantry unit in the game. Well maybe except the Thudd Gun.

It means, assuming no cover, you'll kill an average of 11 Ork Boyz or 4 Space Marines. Good, but hardly the end of the world. Heldrakes will net you better average performance.

Check out the Mantis Warriors librarian! He was the libby we were using for our Guard BLOB.

I'll save you the time.


Order now and you'll get!!

- A level 2 Space Marine Librarian...
- Who automatically comes with a Psyker power which grants him and his squad Shrouding (+ win for Blobs)
- Who has a special rule that any unit charging him is disordered (did I mention BLOB win?)
- Force Axe
- Divination (oh yes, that's right, Div for Vanilla marines... ahh now add prescience to your BLOB or 4++ if you get lucky)

But wait! There's more!

- Re-roll seize the initiative (eat your heart out Coteaz)
- Swap Chapter Tactics for Infiltrate (you thought Korsarro Khan was cool? Say hello to my outflanking, shrouded, prescienced double BLOB, why double.... because my second HQ just outflanked too... and WTF am I saying.. my whole army just Infiltrated to deploy?? How's that grab ya? Infiltrating Thunderfire Cannons anyone? Yes please!)
- 3-4 attacks can't remember... because you know, the stock 2 for a libby isn't good enough

And if you order in the next 15 minutes I'll throw in...

- Re-roll failed psychic tests!


How much is this crazy character?

not 400 points!
not 300 points!
not even 200 points! eat your heart out Njal!

What would be willing to pay for the hands down best Librarian ever to walk the galaxy? For the guy that even Eldrad wishes he could be?

190? What, you think pricing him like Vulkan would even be remotely fair?

Are you nuts?!?! Well, you'll think I am because right now, we're giving this puppy away for just........


165 points! That's right! Just 165 points and this can all be yours!!!! Thought about putting level 2 psykers in your army for 150 points alone.... well, for just 15 more points... this guy can be YOURS!

None of which is actually overpowered!

Infiltrate as chapter Tactics: In an army barely able to use it to it's fullest potential, and where the standard chapter tactics is usually BETTER then most things due to the shooting nature of the army.

He has base 2 attacks with a forceweapon/bolt pistol!


All he really has going for him is the shroud, he's not useful in combat, he's okay for buffing, but at the same time a double outflanking blob doesn't scare me in most cases, because if it's a space marine blob it's generally only going to be 10, and if it's IG, a nice number of cover ignoring weapons are being used now. If your fighting another space marine army, those blobs die simply to Thundercannons.

That's all he's good for, a nice dis-ordered charge and shroud.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Way I see it, the Orks are so UP at the moment that they need any break they can get. With IA8 they stand a fighting chance.

I mean seriously, there isn't one goddamn Quad Gun equivalent in the entire army without forgeworld.

IA:A has some flakka trukks, they work very well for orks if you use em, not to mention the flyers from IA:A and the Dakkajet are useful.

Those fliers are only good if their Rokkit attack is grot guided like everyone says it is (at which point they become enormous flier squadrons of death). But nobody sofar has been able to show me where the book says they are.

 Dakkamite wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Way I see it, the Orks are so UP at the moment that they need any break they can get. With IA8 they stand a fighting chance.

I mean seriously, there isn't one goddamn Quad Gun equivalent in the entire army without forgeworld.

IA:A has some flakka trukks, they work very well for orks if you use em, not to mention the flyers from IA:A and the Dakkajet are useful.

Those fliers are only good if their Rokkit attack is grot guided like everyone says it is (at which point they become enormous flier squadrons of death). But nobody sofar has been able to show me where the book says they are.

The Fighta-Bomba's rokkits aren't grot guided, but the big shoota's are twin linked, and the grot bombs are grot-guided.

However I still find that both varities of Flakk Trukk are better for it, though I'm not sure which is better, the Wartrukk or Big Trukk variety.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Those fliers are only good if their Rokkit attack is grot guided like everyone says it is (at which point they become enormous flier squadrons of death). But nobody sofar has been able to show me where the book says they are.

That's because there is no such rule. You can swap your rokkits for grot bombs, but those are bombs (the blast weapons you drop on a bombing run), not more accurate rokkits.

Infiltrate as chapter tactics is really good. It gives most of your army the ability to deploy after the enemy, even if you go first. You are also not bound by your deployment zone. It is also useful fo setting up first turn double taps.

Except you loose chapter tactics and so lose one of your better tools in that army.

The libby sounds useful but I would rather have a rune priest for the deny the witch or a DA libby for the 4++ PFG both units come with better allied lists attached as well. Infiltrate is okay but alraheim could have infiltrated that blobb in already and the rest of the platoon.

Scythes are not really broken individually it is the fact they do not need to be squadron-ed to be spammed that makes them so good. If they took up FoC slots that army would be a lot less daunting.

Vultures are a nice solid unit but they are not even close to as powerful as a vendetta, scythe, or helldrake. The helldrake is the only one that isn't cheaper and it is almost that same price but about 50% more durable and 2-3x more killy.

Arguing thudd guns are broken OP is kinda silly. They are not quite as good as TFC or griffons and those are not even units people consider particularly competitive. Peregrine has it on the nose that the 12 templates of the thudd gun squad usually results in ~9 hits. This is sub Tau fire warrior level fire power and that was assuming LoS to reduce scatter. They are also horrifically vulnerable to any melee or Ld based attacks. I know you say Lord Commissar but have you never heard of barrage sniping, placed shots, or just walking up to and decapitating him? Once the LC is dead you have a bunch of clustered immobile Ld7 guardsmen.

The most powerful thing you listed is the sabre lascannon platform. This is may actually be legitimately under priced for what you get. What most people do not see and for some reason do not seem to want to see is immobile+Ld7 is a big deal. Once these are set up in that cluster formation to take advantage of the Ld bubble they can never be spread out and re-positioned. This means no late game objective grabs, no re-positioning due to a bad fire lane, or moving away from a big scary. The funniest part is due to the cluster nature of their typical setup I have never seen them close down flyer lists as there is always a path on the board outside of 48" of them. They also usually have a 1/4 of the board out of LoS as many boards have 1 big terrain feature in the middle of the board. Finally as they are clustered then you can multicharge them once you get near enough to do so. The interesting thing about this is it makes some of the units which were less useful much more useful like ork bikerz and jetbike warlock council.

The only real problem with FW is these conversations and they have not updated their pdfs for 6th yet.

 ansacs wrote:
The only real problem with FW is these conversations and they have not updated their pdfs for 6th yet.

The problem with FW arguments is people argume based on heresay rather than knowledge - for example, Dakkamites claim about grot guided missiles.

 -Loki- wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
The only real problem with FW is these conversations and they have not updated their pdfs for 6th yet.

The problem with FW arguments is people argume based on heresay rather than knowledge - for example, Dakkamites claim about grot guided missiles.

I find that to be a huge problem as well. It just seems like they hear someone call something "OP" and before they even take the time to double check the rules, or sit down and evaluate the units, they just start screaming OP.

 -Loki- wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
The only real problem with FW is these conversations and they have not updated their pdfs for 6th yet.

The problem with FW arguments is people argume based on heresay rather than knowledge - for example, Dakkamites claim about grot guided missiles.

You've taken me entirely out of context there.

 Dakkamite wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
The only real problem with FW is these conversations and they have not updated their pdfs for 6th yet.

The problem with FW arguments is people argume based on heresay rather than knowledge - for example, Dakkamites claim about grot guided missiles.

You've taken me entirely out of context there.

Sorry, I shouldn't have said claim. But it's still a good example. People telling you that their rokkits are grot guided, and you've repeated it here, rather than finding out if it's true or not.

The biggest problem with Forgeworld arguments is exactly this. Heresay gets out of hand because people don't have the books. Yes, they're not as accessible as a codex which you can just go read a store copy of, but when heresay - inaccurate heresay - creeps into the discussion, it's actually not worth having anymore.

Why wouldn't people take IA units in a tournament that allowed them?

Cost vs inability to use them in normal games , most other tournaments .
People buy scyth armies , because even if they local players wont always want to play against their lists , they will always be able to play them in tournaments. Buying six or more sabe platforms just to use them in 2-3 tournaments per year is something most people wont do , unless they plan to play for years . There is already a large gap between veterans who are already immune to codex or edition change , while people who just started or want to play for a year or two have to offten buy two armies to have a chance to win tournaments, if FW was added to that the cost of an army would be too high to start playing . Unless someone wanted to make an army and not win with it , but that hardly makes sense to me.

 ansacs wrote:
Except you loose chapter tactics and so lose one of your better tools in that army.
The libby sounds useful but I would rather have a rune priest for the deny the witch or a DA libby for the 4++ PFG both units come with better allied lists attached as well. Infiltrate is okay but alraheim could have infiltrated that blobb in already and the rest of the platoon.

Except that Al'rahem only makes his unit outflank so you lose their fire power turn one and the entire platoon must outflank, including the Sabers.

Vultures are a nice solid unit but they are not even close to as powerful as a vendetta, scythe, or helldrake. The helldrake is the only one that isn't cheaper and it is almost that same price but about 50% more durable and 2-3x more killy.

Heldrakes are broken, no doubt but no way on earth is a Vendetta "broken". Its undercosted by 25-40 points. That's all. How many 3+ vendetta lists have won a GT? None to my knowledge. When you take thatr many Vends, you realize all your anti tank gets rolled into them and if you put scoring in them you find out you need that firepower for early turns. The rest of your army withers on the vine.

Arguing thudd guns are broken OP is kinda silly. They are not quite as good as TFC or griffons and those are not even units people consider particularly competitive. Peregrine has it on the nose that the 12 templates of the thudd gun squad usually results in ~9 hits. This is sub Tau fire warrior level fire power and that was assuming LoS to reduce scatter. They are also horrifically vulnerable to any melee or Ld based attacks. I know you say Lord Commissar but have you never heard of barrage sniping, placed shots, or just walking up to and decapitating him? Once the LC is dead you have a bunch of clustered immobile Ld7 guardsmen.

Yes I have heard of Barrage. Have you heard of LoS? Remember your LoS on to T7 models right? Walk up and kill him? Guard Blob Bubble wrap. Remember said Thudd Guns and Sabre are decimating your infantry from turn one on. People just dont understand how good Multiple barrage is with 4+ shots. If you roll a hit, you can place the template anywhere in contact with the others placed. This means you can net 2-3 hits per Hit! rolled. With 12 shots your looking at 4 Hit!s and anywhere from 9-12 hits per shooting phase. And that's assuming maximum displacement.

Glocknall wrote:
Except that Al'rahem only makes his unit outflank so you lose their fire power turn one and the entire platoon must outflank, including the Sabers.

You were talking about using the character attached to an IG blob. If you do that, you can't infiltrate the blob, you can only outflank it.

With 12 shots your looking at 4 Hit!s and anywhere from 9-12 hits per shooting phase. And that's assuming maximum displacement.

Wow, a whole 9-12 pulse rifle hits. That's slightly better than basic fire warriors with no markerlights at 30", as long as you don't include the cost of the commissar. What an amazing unit to spend a heavy support slot on.

Also, you only get 9-12 hits if your first shot doesn't scatter so far that even hits on the following shots fail to get very many models under the template.

Wow, I don't think I've seen such incommensurability before. To put it another way, the argument appears to be similar to:

Person A: Vendettas are super overpowered!

Person B: The guard codex has ogryn and ratlings, and a whole bunch of stuff that isn't OP.

What person B needs to understand is that the existence of ogryn does not make vendettas balanced. You've got to understand that your average player will see way, way more vendettas than ratlings.

As such, even if ALL forgeworld units aren't overpowered, if the only ones that a person ever actually sees are overpowered, then all of the forgeworld units that the person ever actually plays against are, in fact overpowered.

What person A needs to understand is that there is a small group of people who DON'T just use forgeworld stuff as a way of playing 40k on the easiest difficulty mode possible, and are only out to win games. Just because some people are sociopaths and take the most abusive stuff possible doesn't mean ALL people who use forgeworld are that way, or that all forgeworld units are necessarily overpowered.

Coming from that position, the advice that person B should be giving is "some forgeworld stuff is fine, just don't play games against people who use the stuff that isn't", and the advice person A should be giving is "realise that you are judged by your peers. If you're opting in to a group full of jerks, don't get offended when someone assumes that you are."

There, we can play nice now.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
The only real problem with FW is these conversations and they have not updated their pdfs for 6th yet.

The problem with FW arguments is people argume based on heresay rather than knowledge - for example, Dakkamites claim about grot guided missiles.

You've taken me entirely out of context there.

Sorry, I shouldn't have said claim. But it's still a good example. People telling you that their rokkits are grot guided, and you've repeated it here, rather than finding out if it's true or not.

The biggest problem with Forgeworld arguments is exactly this. Heresay gets out of hand because people don't have the books. Yes, they're not as accessible as a codex which you can just go read a store copy of, but when heresay - inaccurate heresay - creeps into the discussion, it's actually not worth having anymore.

Well I kinda actually said "Those fliers are only good if their Rokkit attack is grot guided like everyone says it is (at which point they become enormous flier squadrons of death). But nobody sofar has been able to show me where the book says they are." - essentially, rather than spreading hearsay, I'm trying to debunk it!