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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Hetelic wrote:
Sorry, but this thread lost any credibility when someone suggested the Mantis warrior libby was "reasonable"

If you can't even concede on that point, there is no point discussing any other unit from anything, ever.

Your paying +65 points for a librarian who gains:

Seize Initative
One reroll for psyker casts per player turn.
Shroud/disordered charge power.
Chapter Tactics replaced by Infiltrate.
Divination.

That is literally all you are getting. I've seen scarier things within the same book, I'd sooner fear Bray'Arth Ashmantle then I would for Ahazra Redeth.

He's not all that special, nor do I fear him. I see no reason to concede anything.

Your not considering how good Infiltrate is as a army wide rule. For one it makes dedicated transports able to infiltrate. Infiltrating TH/SS terminators in a LR? Check. Infiltrating Attack Bikes. Check.
Infiltrating Bike Command Squads with a 2+ jink due to shrouding? Don't want to pay the points for a Drop Pod for your sternguard? Check. Ahazra complete changes the way vanilla marines play.

Its like someone wrote a letter to Santa for the Librarian of their dreams.

Any army that fields 3 ironclads in Lucious pods will have a lack somewhere else.

an IG army that faces 3 lucius ironclads cant realy counter them , unless it has lots of interceptor weapons and am sure that if someone takes 3 ironclads he is going to take more pods to maximize the number of ironclads coming down turn 1. Sure I can try to play a reserv army , but for that I would have to buy more models and the army would work only against this one specific ironclad build and I would never know if my opponent plays it or not.

If I play a necron player I can imagine what builds he has and what tactics he will be using , same for a lot of other armies and If I have real problems with them I can change my list using by taking and first buying stuff from a normal store , I dont have to buy 4 saber platforms from UK and the according FW book , just in case my opponent decides to bring his lucius pods.

Glocknall wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Hetelic wrote:
Sorry, but this thread lost any credibility when someone suggested the Mantis warrior libby was "reasonable"

If you can't even concede on that point, there is no point discussing any other unit from anything, ever.

Your paying +65 points for a librarian who gains:

Seize Initative
One reroll for psyker casts per player turn.
Shroud/disordered charge power.
Chapter Tactics replaced by Infiltrate.
Divination.

That is literally all you are getting. I've seen scarier things within the same book, I'd sooner fear Bray'Arth Ashmantle then I would for Ahazra Redeth.

He's not all that special, nor do I fear him. I see no reason to concede anything.

Your not considering how good Infiltrate is as a army wide rule. For one it makes dedicated transports able to infiltrate. Infiltrating TH/SS terminators in a LR? Check. Infiltrating Attack Bikes. Check.
Infiltrating Bike Command Squads with a 2+ jink due to shrouding? Don't want to pay the points for a Drop Pod for your sternguard? Check. Ahazra complete changes the way vanilla marines play.

Its like someone wrote a letter to Santa for the Librarian of their dreams.

This post is a perfect example, of the prime problem people have with Forgeworld on these forums. They don't read the rules.

The Entry for the Infiltrate replacement for chapter tactics, specifically mentions that any models in terminator armor OR dedicated transports do not benefit from it. They just simply lose combat tactics. It's also only infantry models that exchange for infiltrate.

In addition, the Libbys Mirage power can only be used on the unit he is in. So no 2+ jink save on your bike command squad, that can't infiltrate. Not that it matters, Black Knights can already get a 2+ Jink Save, and we don't see those lists dominating much, in an era of Heldrakes and increased cover ignoring weapons.

Glocknall wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Hetelic wrote:
Sorry, but this thread lost any credibility when someone suggested the Mantis warrior libby was "reasonable"

If you can't even concede on that point, there is no point discussing any other unit from anything, ever.

Your paying +65 points for a librarian who gains:

Seize Initative
One reroll for psyker casts per player turn.
Shroud/disordered charge power.
Chapter Tactics replaced by Infiltrate.
Divination.

That is literally all you are getting. I've seen scarier things within the same book, I'd sooner fear Bray'Arth Ashmantle then I would for Ahazra Redeth.

He's not all that special, nor do I fear him. I see no reason to concede anything.

Your not considering how good Infiltrate is as a army wide rule. For one it makes dedicated transports able to infiltrate. Infiltrating TH/SS terminators in a LR? Check. Infiltrating Attack Bikes. Check.
Infiltrating Bike Command Squads with a 2+ jink due to shrouding? Don't want to pay the points for a Drop Pod for your sternguard? Check. Ahazra complete changes the way vanilla marines play.

Its like someone wrote a letter to Santa for the Librarian of their dreams.

Do you actually know his rules? Because it seems like at this point you actually don't know what they can actually do, because if you actually knew, you would know:

His rule specifically prevents Dedicated transports, and units in terminator armor from gaining infiltrate

He cannot get a bike, so he can't ride around with a bike command squad.

You cannot Infiltrate bikes, you can only infiltrate INFANTRY

His Mirage Power only targets him, and the unit he's in. No shrouding for other units.

Terrain for sternguard isn't always going to be perfect enough to allow you to close in and doubletap, not to mention it's quite risky for a suicide melta/plasma unit that they have a chance to fail.

Sure it opens up new options, but changes the entire way the army plays? If you really felt like infiltrating your whole army, it's nice I suppose, but considering this shooty army is now close up in a position to be taken on... It might work against some armies, but try infiltrating your entire army against orks, or chaos daemons and you'll regret it.

Well the DKOK list replaces the vendetta with the breaching drill and engineers which is more balanced in my opinion.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Glocknall wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Hetelic wrote:
Sorry, but this thread lost any credibility when someone suggested the Mantis warrior libby was "reasonable"

If you can't even concede on that point, there is no point discussing any other unit from anything, ever.

Your paying +65 points for a librarian who gains:

Seize Initative
One reroll for psyker casts per player turn.
Shroud/disordered charge power.
Chapter Tactics replaced by Infiltrate.
Divination.

That is literally all you are getting. I've seen scarier things within the same book, I'd sooner fear Bray'Arth Ashmantle then I would for Ahazra Redeth.

He's not all that special, nor do I fear him. I see no reason to concede anything.

Your not considering how good Infiltrate is as a army wide rule. For one it makes dedicated transports able to infiltrate. Infiltrating TH/SS terminators in a LR? Check. Infiltrating Attack Bikes. Check.
Infiltrating Bike Command Squads with a 2+ jink due to shrouding? Don't want to pay the points for a Drop Pod for your sternguard? Check. Ahazra complete changes the way vanilla marines play.

Its like someone wrote a letter to Santa for the Librarian of their dreams.

Do you actually know his rules? Because it seems like at this point you actually don't know what they can actually do, because if you actually knew, you would know:

His rule specifically prevents Dedicated transports, and units in terminator armor from gaining infiltrate

He cannot get a bike, so he can't ride around with a bike command squad.

You cannot Infiltrate bikes, you can only infiltrate INFANTRY

His Mirage Power only targets him, and the unit he's in. No shrouding for other units.

Terrain for sternguard isn't always going to be perfect enough to allow you to close in and doubletap, not to mention it's quite risky for a suicide melta/plasma unit that they have a chance to fail.

Sure it opens up new options, but changes the entire way the army plays? If you really felt like infiltrating your whole army, it's nice I suppose, but considering this shooty army is now close up in a position to be taken on... It might work against some armies, but try infiltrating your entire army against orks, or chaos daemons and you'll regret it.

Funny thing is that you don't have to infiltrate outside your deployment zone if you wish, you get to see your opponents deployment and then deploy accordingly.

Your Sternguard get to infiltrate into excellent terrain, get a 2+ cover from shrouding, and reroll to hit thanks to prescience. This makes the suicide squad pretty resilient.

The point is that this SC is loaded with special rules which would bloat the cost of any other codex character yet is only 15 points more than his C:SM equivalent.

As for broken Codex units the only one that is irretrievably broken is the Heldrake. Vendettas are constrained by Flyer movement rules and lose any effectiveness vs. Hordes. Night Scythes are pretty damn good but will get theirs once Codex Tau gets more into circulation.

If you look at the Thudd Gun, Sabres, the Libby, Vultures, Artillery carriages; they are hands down better than their codex equivalent. With points reductions..., toughness increases, more USRs. Adding more broken units to "counter" units you don't like in 6thed or because you have a problem with flyer spam doesn't mean you should throw out the baby with the bathwater with more broken FW units.

Glocknall wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Glocknall wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Hetelic wrote:
Sorry, but this thread lost any credibility when someone suggested the Mantis warrior libby was "reasonable"

If you can't even concede on that point, there is no point discussing any other unit from anything, ever.

Your paying +65 points for a librarian who gains:

Seize Initative
One reroll for psyker casts per player turn.
Shroud/disordered charge power.
Chapter Tactics replaced by Infiltrate.
Divination.

That is literally all you are getting. I've seen scarier things within the same book, I'd sooner fear Bray'Arth Ashmantle then I would for Ahazra Redeth.

He's not all that special, nor do I fear him. I see no reason to concede anything.

Your not considering how good Infiltrate is as a army wide rule. For one it makes dedicated transports able to infiltrate. Infiltrating TH/SS terminators in a LR? Check. Infiltrating Attack Bikes. Check.
Infiltrating Bike Command Squads with a 2+ jink due to shrouding? Don't want to pay the points for a Drop Pod for your sternguard? Check. Ahazra complete changes the way vanilla marines play.

Its like someone wrote a letter to Santa for the Librarian of their dreams.

Do you actually know his rules? Because it seems like at this point you actually don't know what they can actually do, because if you actually knew, you would know:

His rule specifically prevents Dedicated transports, and units in terminator armor from gaining infiltrate

He cannot get a bike, so he can't ride around with a bike command squad.

You cannot Infiltrate bikes, you can only infiltrate INFANTRY

His Mirage Power only targets him, and the unit he's in. No shrouding for other units.

Terrain for sternguard isn't always going to be perfect enough to allow you to close in and doubletap, not to mention it's quite risky for a suicide melta/plasma unit that they have a chance to fail.

Sure it opens up new options, but changes the entire way the army plays? If you really felt like infiltrating your whole army, it's nice I suppose, but considering this shooty army is now close up in a position to be taken on... It might work against some armies, but try infiltrating your entire army against orks, or chaos daemons and you'll regret it.

Funny thing is that you don't have to infiltrate outside your deployment zone if you wish, you get to see your opponents deployment and then deploy accordingly.

Your Sternguard get to infiltrate into excellent terrain, get a 2+ cover from shrouding, and reroll to hit thanks to prescience. This makes the suicide squad pretty resilient.

The point is that this SC is loaded with special rules which would bloat the cost of any other codex character yet is only 15 points more than his C:SM equivalent.

As for broken Codex units the only one that is irretrievably broken is the Heldrake. Vendettas are constrained by Flyer movement rules and lose any effectiveness vs. Hordes. Night Scythes are pretty damn good but will get theirs once Codex Tau gets more into circulation.

If you look at the Thudd Gun, Sabres, the Libby, Vultures, Artillery carriages; they are hands down better than their codex equivalent. With points reductions..., toughness increases, more USRs. Adding more broken units to "counter" units you don't like in 6thed or because you have a problem with flyer spam doesn't mean you should throw out the baby with the bathwater with more broken FW units.

The point is, you didn't even know the rules about a unit you were discussing as "OP". He's clearly not, and this just goes to show that pure ignorance, such as on your part with his rules, are used in FW arguments, to try to make claims that they are OP.

The Thudd gun, Vultures, and Libby have been shown to be anything but OP. Vakatahi and Peregrine clearly demonstrated that they are very far from it. You just refuse to accept it, and have yet to put forth any convincing evidence otherwise.

For goodness sake. He's pointed out multiple times now that certain units are superior to their codex equivalents, either by being stronger, cheaper, or having extra rules.

The mantis libby costs 15pts more than a standard vanilla libby, and comes with a lot of extras, including 5++, infiltrate ect ect. and your suggesting that is reasonable??

That's got to be the internet equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LA LA LA at the top of your voice

Hetelic wrote:
For goodness sake. He's pointed out multiple times now that certain units are superior to their codex equivalents, either by being stronger, cheaper, or having extra rules.

The mantis libby costs 15pts more than a standard vanilla libby, and comes with a lot of extras, including 5++, infiltrate ect ect. and your suggesting that is reasonable??

That's got to be the internet equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LA LA LA at the top of your voice

The librarian is 100

The Chief Librarian of The Mantis Warriors is 165 A +65 difference.

You honestly don't know what you are even talking about, so please don't chime in if you don't even know how much he costs in comparison to a standard librarian. Spreading misinformation isn't helping anything here.

Level 2 Space Marine Librarians are 150 points base and come with a force weapon.

Dark Angel Libbys are 100 pts for level 2. They lose ATSKNF for Fearless.

I learned that by buying the appropriate codex from my FLGS. They were the ones that said Codex Space Marines and Codex Dark Angels. I didn't need google maps to show me where to get each unit from.

 Kain wrote:
The Vulture is barely competitive with the Vendetta. Because the Vulture's versatility is meaningless in the face of the vendettas absurdly low cost, ability to dump a veteran squad anywhere, and triple twin linked las cannons garaunteeing the bloody demise of whatever it shoots. Oh and you can take them in threes so even Trygons can die in one round shooting.

+1 on that - Vultures are only really interesting in the IA8 drop army list because they're Heavy Support so they don't compete for slots with Vendettas.

Glocknall wrote:


Level 2 Space Marine Librarians are 150 points base and come with a force weapon.

Dark Angel Libbys are 100 pts for level 2. They lose ATSKNF for Fearless.

I learned that by buying the appropriate codex from my FLGS. They were the ones that said Codex Space Marines and Codex Dark Angels. I didn't need google maps to show me where to get each unit from.

Of course back in 5th edition, the mastery levels weren't in place, so they could not obviously balance for such a thing.

I'll be honest, I had forgotten they required Epistolary for ML2, because I remembered it as it was before the update.

Hetelic wrote:
For goodness sake. He's pointed out multiple times now that certain units are superior to their codex equivalents, either by being stronger, cheaper, or having extra rules.

Which doesn't mean anything because the question is whether a unit is overpowered, not whether it is better than some other unit. Veteran squads are better than penal legion squads but that doesn't make veterans overpowered. And when you look at the question of overall balance instead of being better than weak units you find that calling the Vulture and thudd gun overpowered is a joke.

The mantis libby costs 15pts more than a standard vanilla libby, and comes with a lot of extras, including 5++, infiltrate ect ect. and your suggesting that is reasonable??

That depends, is a standard (mastery 2) C:SM librarian a powerful character, or a weak one that could use some improvement?

And really, given how many times he's made huge mistakes about the rules (suggesting that he hasn't really bothered to read them before complaining) I don't think his opinion has much value here.

@way too many people ITT

Screw enjoying the game - lets all be witches to each other about some unbalanced stuff in some frankly broken and unbalanced rules so I can win an internet argument

No, lets not do that.
Edit: Lol, witches

 Peregrine wrote:

Hetelic wrote:
For goodness sake. He's pointed out multiple times now that certain units are superior to their codex equivalents, either by being stronger, cheaper, or having extra rules.

Which doesn't mean anything because the question is whether a unit is overpowered, not whether it is better than some other unit. Veteran squads are better than penal legion squads but that doesn't make veterans overpowered. And when you look at the question of overall balance instead of being better than weak units you find that calling the Vulture and thudd gun overpowered is a joke.

The mantis libby costs 15pts more than a standard vanilla libby, and comes with a lot of extras, including 5++, infiltrate ect ect. and your suggesting that is reasonable??

That depends, is a standard (mastery 2) C:SM librarian a powerful character, or a weak one that could use some improvement?

And really, given how many times he's made huge mistakes about the rules (suggesting that he hasn't really bothered to read them before complaining) I don't think his opinion has much value here.

Exactly. The Mantis Libby is a solid choice, but he is not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. He still has many of the same weakness that befall regular Libbys. Libbys could also be considered overcosted in the current Vanilla codex, as 6th edition libbys has seen a recosting, since the introduction of mastery levels. A good example is a Dark Angels Libby costing 100 points for a ML2 libby. The Sorcerer shows a similar costing scheme.

I also agree, that Glocknall really cannot be taken seriously in this discussion at this point. He's clearly not done any research into his claims, and has gotten a multitude of rules incorrect. That kind of ignorance just perpetuates the problem against Forgeworld.

That mantis Libby soudns pretty nice, but not really OP imho.

The one i have to aughat sometimes is Sevrin Loth...cast a power and get a 2++?!?! Lol.

But the last time i faced him i charged with a D-Lord and got him to force-axe himselfn the face so.....karma?



My experience with FW model is faily limited - i used my Tomb Stalker for the first time yesterday - and it is a nice model with nice rules. But it's not a game breaker by any means. it won combat against a squad of marines but then for a 220 point model i would bloody well think so!

i'm hoping to get a Sentry Pylon done on the next week or and try that out. The 120" raneg sounds OP but how often are you actually gogin to use that full range in a normal 40k game? Whats the range on a Icarus Lascannon? 72" i think - and that pretty much cvovrs the table.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The Vulture is barely competitive with the Vendetta. Because the Vulture's versatility is meaningless in the face of the vendettas absurdly low cost, ability to dump a veteran squad anywhere, and triple twin linked las cannons garaunteeing the bloody demise of whatever it shoots. Oh and you can take them in threes so even Trygons can die in one round shooting.

+1 on that - Vultures are only really interesting in the IA8 drop army list because they're Heavy Support so they don't compete for slots with Vendettas.

And all the guns the vulture can take are meaningless when none of them are exactly stellar in the amount a vulture can have them in for their cost.

The big reason why the Vendetta's loadout is so good is that gets off so many twinlinked lascannon shots off for so cheap on such a hardy and fast platform that can be taken in bulk that it essentially hits a critical mass, turning an otherwise good but not "wowee" weapon into the bane of lists everywhere even despite the prevalence of horde lists in 6e. Be glad the vendetta can't swap it's lascannons for any of the other heavy weapon team guns.

Oh and being able to ruin your day by dropping a veteran squad precisely where you the enemy don't want them to be is just the icing on the cake. As is what is supposed to be an anti-tank air transport being able to easily attain air superiority against dedicated fighters and interceptors. This is the equivalent of Blackhawks with hellfire missiles bolted onto their sides gunning down F-22 raptor pilots en masse.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hetelic wrote:
Sorry, but this thread lost any credibility when someone suggested the Mantis warrior libby was "reasonable"

If you can't even concede on that point, there is no point discussing any other unit from anything, ever.

Me, Sasori, Zebio, Vaktathi and Peregrine have been nothing but reasonable, while you and Glock have been repeatedly babbling out nonsense and plugging your fingers in your ears going "lalalalalala I'm not listening!" whenever we point out the flaws in your arguments.

If anyone should be conceding, it's you lot.

Blimey. I just can't belive that certain posters think that no forgeworld units are overpowered.

A thudd gun with T7 and 15 small blasts in not OP for 150 pts, because it's Ld7 and immobile and griffon's are better ... Really, since when is low leadership and immobile a problem in an IG army? Lord Commissar and a large blob screening. Job Done. 15 small blasts is not that good because it only covers about the same area as 1 large blast - but the small blasts each hit, so the number of wounds is probably 5 times more for one thudd gun than two griffons and the thudd gun is considerably harder to kill due to mass of wounds it can take.

The vulture is not OP because it's not as good as a helldrake. Hey, winning £1m on the lottery is also not great because I could have won £2m ... helldrake is the best unit in 40k, so the fact that people are even comparing vultures and vendettas to it shows that these units are certainly up there in the top few units in the game albeit maybe not the top 1.

Sabre defence platforms - so the HWS teams they are obviously better than are not that good, doesn't mean these bad boys aren't good. Anti-flyer sewn up good and proper in a way no other codex can match. Ok, they aren't great in assault or at killing hordes, but who cares. That's not what they are in the list for. So they're immobile, well they do get a scout move so getting a good shooting corridor is not a problem.

These units are not taken in isolation. They plug gaps in the IG codex to deal with hordes, flyers etc that are far far better than the codex originals and no other army gets this ability. SM get some really good units, comptemptor dreads, hyperios platforms and the like, eldar seem to have done well - but beyond that it''s a bit of a desert.

I would like to see a update in the Remora drone rules, i despise the look on the normal fliers, and the mix of fire and seeker missiles on the remora supplies something i can harrass and use.

The vulture is not OP because it's not as good as a helldrake. Hey, winning £1m on the lottery is also not great because I could have won £2m ... helldrake is the best unit in 40k, so the fact that people are even comparing vultures and vendettas to it shows that these units are certainly up there in the top few units in the game albeit maybe not the top 1.

It's compared because it's far worse then a unit within their own codex. It's not because it's being compared because they're both OP, it's because one's OP, and within the dex itself. The Vulture is at best, good, not OP.

A thudd gun with T7 and 15 small blasts in not OP for 150 pts, because it's Ld7 and immobile and griffon's are better ... Really, since when is low leadership and immobile a problem in an IG army? Lord Commissar and a large blob screening. Job Done. 15 small blasts is not that good because it only covers about the same area as 1 large blast - but the small blasts each hit, so the number of wounds is probably 5 times more for one thudd gun than two griffons and the thudd gun is considerably harder to kill due to mass of wounds it can take.

Well seeing as you'd have to factor in the scatter as well, the fact that they are just pulse gun strength and won't be able to penetrate very well, and at best you have what amounts to a decent firewarrior squad shooting range. If you fear a firewarrior based list, your list probably wasn't that good to begin with to deal with most things, either that or your army is specifically made in a way that thudd guns could actually be potentially good. It's rare to find an army that would actually be afraid of Thudd guns as a whole..

Sabre defence platforms - so the HWS teams they are obviously better than are not that good, doesn't mean these bad boys aren't good. Anti-flyer sewn up good and proper in a way no other codex can match. Ok, they aren't great in assault or at killing hordes, but who cares. That's not what they are in the list for. So they're immobile, well they do get a scout move so getting a good shooting corridor is not a problem.

These are actually undercosted for what they can do, but the problem is that people use it as an example of "All FW must be banned because this unit is OP!", yeah so is several things within the codex, but we don't kneejerk ban them for it.

No Zebio your completely skirting around the argument.

Myself and others have been arguing against UNIVERSAL ACCEPTANCE of Forge World.

I have pointed out specific units that are outside the norm of regular 40k. Reaction to those units is to hold up MacGuffins like the Vendetta and Night Scythes. Doesn't matter that no Vendetta Spam, or Flying Croissant list has ever won a major GT.

If you were to construct a ban list as a TO of a local tournament how would you go about it. Order the 12 or so FW books at $60 a pop? Nobody wants to do that.

Its funny to see a thread about Thunder Fire cannons and everyone raving about them, and then see poster in this threat poo poo the Thudd Gun because it only gets 12 small blasts at STR 5. Oh yeah its more durable and has barrage.

Its a denial of reality only because someone is ideologically committed to FW for some reason.

I suspect its because its a lot of the people who have trouble adjusting to 6th: Hate Flyers, Want to bring back their razor/chimera spam and cannot do that. I feel for them. I had to hang up my chimera vets and go to using blobs with artillery support.

The game has changed and needs to be played different. Introducing unbalanced FW units in an attempt to shift the meta is just a bad idea.

GW is actually addressing Flyers in new codex releases. Tau are definitely able to address Flyers. Demons and both Marines Codexes get access to Skyfire. Over the next Codex releases I think Flyer dominance will decrease.

But the next posters will come back and say I have no idea what im talking about. Oh well

The vulture is not even half as good as the vendetta, my god get it through your heads. And I have repeatedly been shot at and fired thudd guns, I can safely say that their main use is to hold up a game. My gaunts laugh at them.

No Zebio your completely skirting around the argument.

Myself and others have been arguing against UNIVERSAL ACCEPTANCE of Forge World.

Here's my opinion then.

They should be accepted, because your banning GW products that are official with your house-rules.

GW is actually addressing Flyers in new codex releases. Tau are definitely able to address Flyers. Demons and both Marines Codexes get access to Skyfire. Over the next Codex releases I think Flyer dominance will decrease.

And yet that still leaves plenty without, SoB aren't getting anything anytime soon, but you know what'd help them? Avengers! From Forgeworld

ts funny to see a thread about Thunder Fire cannons and everyone raving about them, and then see poster in this threat poo poo the Thudd Gun because it only gets 12 small blasts at STR 5. Oh yeah its more durable and has barrage.

Because the Thunder Fire cannons are S6, has tremor shock rounds, and overall has better reliability, Thudd guns also have slow rate of fire.


Also your argument is inflammatory, emotional rather than logical based, as shown by these sort of arguments here, and seem more based around insulting the others

Its a denial of reality only because someone is ideologically committed to FW for some reason.

I suspect its because its a lot of the people who have trouble adjusting to 6th: Hate Flyers, Want to bring back their razor/chimera spam and cannot do that. I feel for them. I had to hang up my chimera vets and go to using blobs with artillery support.

None of your arguments have shown why they should be banned, aside from some sort of kneejerk reaction None of them show why they should be banned overall.

But the next posters will come back and say I have no idea what im talking about. Oh well

I actually believe you do, it's just your sounding less like a logical poster and more of one trying to troll based on insults.

Universal acceptance of GW based products should be the standard.

At least someone has accepted the sabres are cost efficient!

Vendettas are just behind helldrakes as the second best unit in the game. Is anyone really arguign about that? So the vulture is not at that level, but outside of it's own codex who else can field flyers as good as the vulture? The aforementioned CSM with the helldrake and Necrons. That's it.

Thudd Guns. They're anti-horde, they are not supposed to be killing tanks or MCs - that's what lascannons/meltas are for. Shooting one at a landraider and then complaining it's rubbish because the landraider didn't die just shows bad generalship not a bad unit. No one ever claimed S5 weapons was for anything other than killing troops and S5 does nicely against T3 and T4. Why take one thudd gun when you can take 2? That kills a 30 strong ork boyz unit in a turn. Worried about initial scatter - plenty of ways of giving them twin-linked. Compare them to fire warriors, which are deadly in rapid fire range but dont't take return fire at T7 unlike the Thudd gun. They don't die that's the problem, so they keep on firing. It's not the shots it's the shots and the durability that makes them OP.

Oh and Thudd guns don't kill termagants!! Not sure about that; 12 blasts against T3 models with a 6+ armour save. They kill a brood a turn unless there's some real extreme dice rolling going on and then they do it again the next turn.

Oh, I missed the Mantis libby is not a underpriced HQ choice because an entirely different codex does level 2 psykers for less. It's a different codex, that's the point!! You take a Dark Angels libby and you're stuck with the DA troop tax when you probably want IG allies as his perfect place is in a large blob squad. SM codex lists a level 2 librarian at 15 pts less than this guy and is anyone really arguing the extras are worth way more than 15 points? Oh no, he can't infiltrate attack bikes therefore he's worthless ... really?

I'm not saying that all FW is unbalanced, just a certain few units and that these units generally all fall into 2 codexes so furthering the imbalance. At tournaments I'm afraid these are the majority of FW units you see, pretending that only hobbyists take FW for fluff armies is not a convincing argument. Saying all forgeworld is reasonable is really just putting your head in the sand.

Vendettas are just behind helldrakes as the second best unit in the game. Is anyone really arguign about that? So the vulture is not at that level, but outside of it's own codex who else can field flyers as good as the vulture? The aforementioned CSM with the helldrake and Necrons. That's it.

Maybe if you'd play with more forgeworld you'd see they have plenty of decent flyers, the Barracuda for Tau are very lovely, The Nightwing does well for Eldar, but the Hornet is something I'd recommend as well, in packs it'll eat the heldrake alive! I've also loved using the Hell blades before now, they are pretty decent for their cost.

FW also opens up tons of anti-flyers for many without access to them, they get decent FW anti-flyers with the Flakka Trukks, Eldar have Fire Storm, it'd allow multiple factions to have ground based defenses (decent ones, not Flakk Missles)

Oh, I missed the Mantis libby is not a underpriced HQ choice because an entirely different codex does level 2 psykers for less. It's a different codex, that's the point!! You take a Dark Angels libby and you're stuck with the DA troop tax when you probably want IG allies as his perfect place is in a large blob squad. SM codex lists a level 2 librarian at 15 pts less than this guy and is anyone really arguing the extras are worth way more than 15 points? Oh no, he can't infiltrate attack bikes therefore he's worthless ... really?

Because he was made at a time where ML didn't matter, and the Epistolary wasn't a commonly taken item, when they remake the C:SM codex (which should be a month from the rumors) the librarian'll be aound the DA cost and then that'll be fixed. Because as it is it's really the only common factor

Also we didn't say it made him worthless that he can't infiltrate bikes, You guys keep messing up the rules so apparently you don't even know what his powers can do when you keep falsely spreading info and when we call you out you now try and put words where we say it makes him worthless?

He's a decent HQ.

I'm not saying that all FW is unbalanced, just a certain few units and that these units generally all fall into 2 codexes so furthering the imbalance. At tournaments I'm afraid these are the majority of FW units you see, pretending that only hobbyists take FW for fluff armies is not a convincing argument. Saying all forgeworld is reasonable is really just putting your head in the sand.

Listen, unless you want to enforce a leaguewide comp on what units all can take, then it'd be fine, you'd at least have a proper standard you can hide behind for all to make things balanced.

Down here, we play with FW fully, we've seen SoB do far more effectively with the Avenger helping it out, we've seen more flyers and anti-flyers used, we've generally seen things used from the worst to the best, but saying it's restricted to just FW? Better start making a full out comp for all of 40k to balance it out because it makes you sound like a hypocrite if you only care for one source and not another.

Happy to have a sensible discussion on how to implement them properly and fairly, I have accepted that the problems are few and far between in respect of numbers of units, but these are the ones you see at tournaments. You can't though have a discussion where the loudest voice here is that there is no forgeworld problem, the units are all balanced fairly and all forgeworld should be allowed all the time with no restriction.

Saying the Mantis Libby is not underpriced because the cost of librarians will be adjusted in the next codex is not a sensible argument. You have no evidence that the SM codex will be out in a month and even less that the price will be the same as a DA librarian. That's just your personal wish list.

There is plenty of evidence from GW/FW that the balancing of rules/points is not as rigorous for FW units as it is for main codex ones where they are considered as part of the whole book and not as one-off units. They've never tried to hide this fact.

Ultimately we all have the option to vote with our feet and I do. I have played in non-FW and FW restricted tournaments but as my main army is Nids I'm not giving up a weekend to play full-on FW allowed armies. From the UK scene the FW allowed tourneys seems to be an invite to spam the worst kinds of stuff you can find in the books. You don't see 1 or 2 sabre defence platforms you see 6+. You don't see 1 Thud gun you see 2 or 3 etc. You say comp like it's a bad word, but I don't think it is where it's gentle. I like the variety that FW can add, but spam is a problem and restricting numbers can restrict these problems.

I don't want to get to the stage in tournaments like at the end of 5th where nearly half the field was Grey Knights and in 5 games you were also certain to play at least 3 GK matches. Did all these people take GK because it was always their favourite army fluffwise dating back to the original Daemonhunters book? No, they took it because they wanted to win! With full-on FW IG I can see at least half the tournament players taking IG as primary or allies and far from adding varitey it starts to restrict it again. IG just seems to be able to build a far better anti-flyer solution using FW than anyone else and this amost single handedly takes away any reason for people to take flyers/deep strikers to a tournament.

At least someone has accepted the sabres are cost efficient!

They are really the only unit being discussed that's really undercosted. I still don't think they are OP. but they are a bit undercosted.

Vendettas are just behind helldrakes as the second best unit in the game. Is anyone really arguign about that? So the vulture is not at that level, but outside of it's own codex who else can field flyers as good as the vulture? The aforementioned CSM with the helldrake and Necrons. That's it.

The Dark Angel Flyers and the Tau flyers are pretty terrible. There is a reason no one takes them in competitive list. The Vulture, by it's nature of being less powerful than the dominating flyers, and better than the weaker flyers, puts it solidly in the middle of the pack, with the Stormtalon.

Thudd Guns. They're anti-horde, they are not supposed to be killing tanks or MCs - that's what lascannons/meltas are for. Shooting one at a landraider and then complaining it's rubbish because the landraider didn't die just shows bad generalship not a bad unit. No one ever claimed S5 weapons was for anything other than killing troops and S5 does nicely against T3 and T4. Why take one thudd gun when you can take 2? That kills a 30 strong ork boyz unit in a turn. Worried about initial scatter - plenty of ways of giving them twin-linked. Compare them to fire warriors, which are deadly in rapid fire range but dont't take return fire at T7 unlike the Thudd gun. They don't die that's the problem, so they keep on firing. It's not the shots it's the shots and the durability that makes them OP.

Peregrine and Vakathi has suffenceintly covered-several times- Why the Thudd gun is not OP.

Oh, I missed the Mantis libby is not a underpriced HQ choice because an entirely different codex does level 2 psykers for less. It's a different codex, that's the point!! You take a Dark Angels libby and you're stuck with the DA troop tax when you probably want IG allies as his perfect place is in a large blob squad. SM codex lists a level 2 librarian at 15 pts less than this guy and is anyone really arguing the extras are worth way more than 15 points? Oh no, he can't infiltrate attack bikes therefore he's worthless ... really?

The point is, we're using the DA libby as a method for cost comparasion. You can use the Sorcerer as well. Just because the SM vanilla libby is overcosted, does not make the Mantis libby OP, it's cost is merely inline with the current costing of Psykers.

I'm not saying that all FW is unbalanced, just a certain few units and that these units generally all fall into 2 codexes so furthering the imbalance. At tournaments I'm afraid these are the majority of FW units you see, pretending that only hobbyists take FW for fluff armies is not a convincing argument. Saying all forgeworld is reasonable is really just putting your head in the sand.

The units you have presented have been quite sufficiently debunked as op, several times in this thread. The only unit that really has a case, is the Sabre.

 ruminator wrote:


I don't want to get to the stage in tournaments like at the end of 5th where nearly half the field was Grey Knights and in 5 games you were also certain to play at least 3 GK matches. Did all these people take GK because it was always their favourite army fluffwise dating back to the original Daemonhunters book? No, they took it because they wanted to win! With full-on FW IG I can see at least half the tournament players taking IG as primary or allies and far from adding varitey it starts to restrict it again. IG just seems to be able to build a far better anti-flyer solution using FW than anyone else and this amost single handedly takes away any reason for people to take flyers/deep strikers to a tournament.

As someone who has played in full-allowed FW events, and lives in an area where most of the big tournaments allow FW, there's no evidence that FW is dominating any events to the extent described.

 Vaktathi wrote:
. As someone who has played in full-allowed FW events, and lives in an area where most of the big tournaments allow FW, there's no evidence that FW is dominating any events to the extent described.

'


Taking your comment at face value it will be interesting to see the effect of FW on the national tournament scene. Wargames Con is the first of the Big Three to allow FW. With recent tournaments like the BAO FW was present but not omnipresent. A lot of it has to do with the push for FW is a recent event. Another is the difficultly obtaining Forge World products. They are often out of stock, require hefty shipping fees, no retailer discount is offered so not readily available in FLGS. Now that WGC has had almost a year advertising FW acceptance I think you will see a more pronounced effect on the tournament.

That may be true, we'll soon see, though whether it's a result of spamming a small number of undercosted units or just people taking FW in general remains to be seen.