Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Glocknall wrote:
If you were to construct a ban list as a TO of a local tournament how would you go about it.

I wouldn't, at least not until I've already made a ban list for codex units that are just as much of a problem.

Its funny to see a thread about Thunder Fire cannons and everyone raving about them, and then see poster in this threat poo poo the Thudd Gun because it only gets 12 small blasts at STR 5. Oh yeah its more durable and has barrage.

Because TFCs ignore cover, and boost one of your own pieces of cover. Oh yeah, and they occupy a heavy support slot that marines don't care much about, while IG players have a lot of competition for their precious heavy support slots.

The game has changed and needs to be played different. Introducing unbalanced FW units in an attempt to shift the meta is just a bad idea.

It's not an attempt to shift the meta, it's an attempt to play the game as GW designed it and allow all official rules rather than just the ones that a particular TO likes.

 ruminator wrote:
Worried about initial scatter - plenty of ways of giving them twin-linked.

If by "plenty" you mean "allied psyker with divination", I guess that's true. But once you're paying for a rune priest to babysit the unit you're no longer spending 150 points on it.

I'm not saying that all FW is unbalanced, just a certain few units and that these units generally all fall into 2 codexes so furthering the imbalance. At tournaments I'm afraid these are the majority of FW units you see, pretending that only hobbyists take FW for fluff armies is not a convincing argument. Saying all forgeworld is reasonable is really just putting your head in the sand.

And now is that any different from codex units? Do you really think that codex stuff is magically not overpowered just because it's in a codex, and people happily bring all of the weaker codex units instead of just the few powerful ones?

 ruminator wrote:
There is plenty of evidence from GW/FW that the balancing of rules/points is not as rigorous for FW units as it is for main codex ones where they are considered as part of the whole book and not as one-off units. They've never tried to hide this fact.

There's plenty of evidence that the "rigorous" balancing of rules/points for codex units consists of "beer and pretzels" games with crazy scenarios, with the result of every codex being about as balanced as giving out point costs with a random number generator. When GW shows some evidence of doing professional MTG-style playtesting for anything we can consider the "it's not playtested enough" argument.

From the UK scene the FW allowed tourneys seems to be an invite to spam the worst kinds of stuff you can find in the books.

You mean just like every single tournament where codex armies are allowed?

Peregrine, I really respect your opinion, and in a lot of posts you make a lot of sense; but I feel here you're just digging your heels in on principle, rather than because you genuinely think ALL FW is reasonable.

There are 2 "issues" I see surrounding FW and Codexes (codexs/ codi/ ect) Firstly, the majority of units we're discussing here are for IG. Imperial Guard are already a very competitive and top tier army. They have all the tools they need in their codex to produce lists capable of making a serious fist of it in both casual and tournament gaming circles. They have plenty high-s and long range shooting, and lots of weight of fire, as well as one of the best flier/ aerial units in the current game. They can TAC in almost any meta, and have some of the most durable "troops" in the form of blob squads. Realistically, FW units for IG are the cherry on top of an already rather pretty cake. Sure, FW is there so people can take different lists, build on a theme or concept, or otherwise make their army "unique"; however, you will also always get players whose aim is to break the current games system, produce the hardest and most broken list they can, and smash face with it. Yes, they can do that with a codex-only based list, but their choices are much more limited, and its much easier for their opponent to get hold of the rules and understand/ counter them.

Basically, what I'm alluding to is simply IG have all the tools they need to be a competitive army in the current meta; giving them unlimited access to FW is giving them even more tools (and thusly making them a better + more common army), and asking for TFG to come and take advantage of this to really break the game system.

Secondly, you refer to the Helldrake as an OP and broken unit. Yes, it's currently the most powerful unit in the game (though I think Tau will eventually have a great say in that discussion); However, like you have done with IG, you have to look at what else is in the codex with Helldrake. Nothing. Really, minus Helldrake the Chaos list is pretty mediocre. Sure it'll work, and in the hands of someone skilled will be competitive, but Helldrake is key for a lot of players to make their list work. It's one of the biggest crutches in 40k atm. Unlike IG, Chaos players can't fall back on a solid, robust codex is comp removes this unit from them, IG can (see above).


In summary: Not ALL FW is broken. Probably the vast majority of it is ok, reasonable or even UP: However, the few units that are OP/ under-costed for their return (however else you want to phrase it) tend to be available for the 1 army that has plenty of tools to already do those jobs. on the other hand, some Codex units are probably OP/ undercosted as well; however, these seem to be units in less "well-tooled" codex, and thusly often act as a crutch that allows that army to be more effective than it would be without it.

(And I've just wondered why we're not seeing more Chaos/ Guard allies with Helldrake/ Vendetta and AA floating around :s )

Hetelic

Nobody is saying the Thudd Guns are "poo poo", only that they're not the infantry cleansing armageddon machines they're made out to be.

There aren't any inherent methods in he IG army to Twin Link them unless they are ineffectually targeting a vehicle, and then they need a CCS within 12" and to pass an Ld7 test.

Allied psykers with divination or other such things are needed to make them TL'd with any real degree of consistency

Hetelic wrote:
Firstly, the majority of units we're discussing here are for IG.

That's because people are only complaining about IG. Other armies get great stuff from FW. Eldar, for example, pretty much dump their entire codex in favor of FW stuff.

Realistically, FW units for IG are the cherry on top of an already rather pretty cake.

And that's exactly it. The Vulture would be a top-tier unit in many other armies, but in an IG army it's just another cool model that you ignore in favor of taking more Vendettas.

well, the Vulture with the TL Punisher cannons specifically. With other armament, it's not very scary at all, it's next most useful build is the rocket pods, and at S4 AP6 they're not scaring too much.

Peregrine the point he is trying to make is you give a single army dominance over all portions of the game. Withering firepower from durable los ignoring platforms, air dominance interceptor artillery, hordes of scoring infantry etc....

Not only that you will see the same ig units repeated through all the allies of guard. Who wouldn't take a few sabres to negate fliers?

Glocknall wrote:
Peregrine the point he is trying to make is you give a single army dominance over all portions of the game. Withering firepower from durable los ignoring platforms, air dominance interceptor artillery, hordes of scoring infantry etc....

That's all hypothetical, and hasn't happened at the events where FW rules have been legal.

Not only that you will see the same ig units repeated through all the allies of guard. Who wouldn't take a few sabres to negate fliers?

How is that any different from right now, where everyone takes Vendettas and blob squads?

At the same time you're adding more units to SM's, Eldar, Tau, Orks, now Necrons, etc. Forgeworld does not produce exclusively IG stuff, lots of armies get new goodies.

 Vaktathi wrote:
At the same time you're adding more units to SM's, Eldar, Tau, Orks, now Necrons, etc. Forgeworld does not produce exclusively IG stuff, lots of armies get new goodies.

The Dark Eldar got two units, but pending improvements in their casting they'll have to put it on hold because they can't make them sturdy enough.

I'm hoping for new FW Tyranid units soon though.

My only real issue with FW is the price and availability. The models cost lots more than the already high-priced GW stuff, and there's really nowhere to have a look at the books without buying them.

Which means the only one likely to have some FW is the guy who already casually dropped the money for a full Necron Flying Circus and an Eldar force with nine scattler laser War Walker (Eldrad + Farseer guaranteed). He's not going to buy a "fluffy" unit, he'll buy something powerful that I've never seen before.

The models actually more and more are reaching parity, lots of GW's newer kits are in fact more expensive than equivalent FW kits. The new Plastic fantasy Chaos Lord for example is more than some FW Terminator characters. My FW dreads cost me less than buying the GW ones would have, and for people in Aus/Oz/Japan/etc FW is very often cheaper than GW.

So that's why so many people here have contemptors.

Spetulhu wrote:
My only real issue with FW is the price and availability. The models cost lots more than the already high-priced GW stuff, and there's really nowhere to have a look at the books without buying them.

Which means the only one likely to have some FW is the guy who already casually dropped the money for a full Necron Flying Circus and an Eldar force with nine scattler laser War Walker (Eldrad + Farseer guaranteed). He's not going to buy a "fluffy" unit, he'll buy something powerful that I've never seen before.

I hardly see how it's a reason to not allow Forgeworld when as you said, he's already casually dropping money on some of the more broken standard codex armylists. Nothing from Forgeworld, for example, is going to be comparable to a Necron bakery, but you obviously don't have much of an issue with that other than 'oh well he's at it again'.

As much as I dislike Peregrine sometimes (and usually have his posts ignored) I gotta say I agree with him here.

Some armies desperately need the boost. My beloved boys are so out of date it would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Forgeworld gives them a fighting chance should I be desperate enough to take it. There are some that would say that 9 Supa Kannons or 17 deff rollas in an army is overpowered and shouldn't be allowed ~ and I would just direct those people to one of the many "XXX with IG allies" lists floating around that can erase pie plate shaped holes in your army from anywhere on the map every turn with impunity, or a certain hellchicken that practically bitch slaps the opponent and declares "I win, suck my dick" when you put it on the table. The game is broken already, lets not pretend elsewise or that forgeworld makes it any worse ~ if anything, it just spreads the brokenness around and gives everyone their fair share.

Hetelic wrote:
There are 2 "issues" I see surrounding FW and Codexes (codexs/ codi/ ect)

Actually, there's a third issue with FW rules which is often overlooked and, in my mind, is the biggest reason by far that FW rules should not be used in tournaments. (I should point out here that I use FW rules all the time but not competitively)

There are many FW units that have been printed in many books with different rules. As such, it's virtually impossible to know which rules are the current ones.

Just look at Imperial Armour Aeronautica. Only a few months later and some of those units have been revised in IA2-2nd edtion. E.g. Hydra Platforms no longer get Interceptor.

Unless you have all of the books in hand, how do you tell that the rules you or your opponent are using are the current ones? Without a living list somewhere (e.g. forgeworld website) it's far to easy to cheat (intentionally or accidentally) by using a version of the rules which is not the current one. The lists in the back of IA-apoc 1&2 helped but they were almost immediately out of date.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

Hetelic wrote:
There are 2 "issues" I see surrounding FW and Codexes (codexs/ codi/ ect)

Actually, there's a third issue with FW rules which is often overlooked and, in my mind, is the biggest reason by far that FW rules should not be used in tournaments. (I should point out here that I use FW rules all the time but not competitively)

There are many FW units that have been printed in many books with different rules. As such, it's virtually impossible to know which rules are the current ones.

Just look at Imperial Armour Aeronautica. Only a few months later and some of those units have been revised in IA2-2nd edtion. E.g. Hydra Platforms no longer get Interceptor.

Unless you have all of the books in hand, how do you tell that the rules you or your opponent are using are the current ones? Without a living list somewhere (e.g. forgeworld website) it's far to easy to cheat (intentionally or accidentally) by using a version of the rules which is not the current one. The lists in the back of IA-apoc 1&2 helped but they were almost immediately out of date.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0VsFRrZtHE2bmFiSmxpeGJSb0E/edit?pli=1

Here ya go!

 Scott-S6 wrote:

Just look at Imperial Armour Aeronautica. Only a few months later and some of those units have been revised in IA2-2nd edtion. E.g. Hydra Platforms no longer get Interceptor.

IA:A was released in 2012, IA:A 2nd Ed was released in 2011.

 -Loki- wrote:
I hardly see how it's a reason to not allow Forgeworld when as you said, he's already casually dropping money on some of the more broken standard codex armylists.

I didn't say to disallow it, I said it feels like a problem to me that the models are costly and the rules almost impossible to check up unless you buy the books. Any standard codex is easy for me to get a look at, FW not.

And no, avoiding the croissant spam is far better than coming to look at it. No game is better than a game you don't enjoy.

I allow Forgeworld. In fact I actually allowed Forgeworld units into my game before I knew they weren't in codex units. Fought against an IG fellow that used Salamanders that outflanked and a few vulture gun ships. The salamanders didn't do much, but looked cool and make the battle feel a little more fluid. One of the vultures got it's Punisher Cannon intercepted and the other chewed up a few nominal infantry squads.

It wasn't really that bad at all. I'd allow it if I ever ran a tournament. There's already plenty of in-codex power-gaming. Adding Forgeworld means you get to look at cool models, and it freshens the game up a bit.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

IA:A was released in 2012, IA:A 2nd Ed was released in 2011.

My point entirely!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0VsFRrZtHE2bmFiSmxpeGJSb0E/edit?pli=1
Here ya go!

That's nice but when was it last updated?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

IA:A was released in 2012, IA:A 2nd Ed was released in 2011.

My point entirely!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0VsFRrZtHE2bmFiSmxpeGJSb0E/edit?pli=1
Here ya go!

That's nice but when was it last updated?

Aeronautica, yet to update in IA12.

Edit: My bad, this is the newest version, with addition of IG1 Second edition.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/118224164/FW-Approved

With the current free for all that is the allies matrix I doubt if you brought some units from forgeworld it would make any difference than if you brought some from privateer press.

JWhex wrote:
With the current free for all that is the allies matrix I doubt if you brought some units from forgeworld it would make any difference than if you brought some from privateer press.

Just because codex units that can be taken as allies are completely broken, that doesn't excuse some Forgeworld units from being balanced.