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 Mannahnin wrote:
It's not even a question of "new" vs "old". Many cultures have had more expansive and accurate concepts of sex and identity than that. Many Native American tribes, for example, had a concept referred to as "two-spirited", referring to people who had aspects of both male and female.

But since we brought up "new vs old", I suppose it's worth mentioning that the idea of a binary choice of male\female - straight\gay hasn't even really been standard in the US since a report 60 years ago.

 Ouze wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
It's not even a question of "new" vs "old". Many cultures have had more expansive and accurate concepts of sex and identity than that. Many Native American tribes, for example, had a concept referred to as "two-spirited", referring to people who had aspects of both male and female.

But since we brought up "new vs old", I suppose it's worth mentioning that the idea of a binary choice of male\female - straight\gay hasn't even really been standard in the US since a report 60 years ago.

I'd probably be a 1 or 2 on that scale, I'm sexually attracted to females but I have a few ideas on what makes a good-looking male (although I usually mix up with what I think is cool is attractive for males despite not being the same thing) and sometimes I have thoughts of homosexual sex

(I wanted to see if I could get turned on by gay behaviour but it didn't work for me) despite not getting any pleasure out of it so I only view it neutrally as I don't get grossed about it either, it just becomes a curiosity thing with me.

And even the Kinsey scale isn't considered the best measure any more.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
And even the Kinsey scale isn't considered the best measure any more.

What is the best measure now? In my sociology course we talked about how sexuality isn't as black and white as some might believe and that the barriers between homosexuality, heterosexuality and bisexuality can be quite fluid.

I'm totally on board with letting people be who they want to be. It's no skin off my nuts.
I do wish people would act more dignified about stuff though. And by no means am I focusing that lens on the lgbt community - it holds for everyone. Getting frustrated at bureaucracy acting like a bureaucracy is normal and it happens to all of us. No need to go make a scene, whether it's whipping your tits out or screaming at the teller or driving your car into a wall or what have you.

 Bromsy wrote:
I'm totally on board with letting people be who they want to be. It's no skin off my nuts.
I do wish people would act more dignified about stuff though. And by no means am I focusing that lens on the lgbt community - it holds for everyone. Getting frustrated at bureaucracy acting like a bureaucracy is normal and it happens to all of us. No need to go make a scene, whether it's whipping your tits out or screaming at the teller or driving your car into a wall or what have you.

While true, do you think that a person in such a unique state as the one in the OP would have gotten any resolution (positive or negative) if they had just gone about their merry way, with an "incorrect" drivers license? What would have happened, had she been pulled over for speeding, or a tail light? The police officer would more than likely have taken her in for having a "false" ID, and instead of looking like a hero or martyr to some, she'd look like a complete villain (especially in a place as deep in the bible belt as Tennessee)

So many of us who usually spend most of our time in the OT disagreeing with each other are on the same page in this thread.

Almost makes me shed a tear...

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
I'm totally on board with letting people be who they want to be. It's no skin off my nuts.
I do wish people would act more dignified about stuff though. And by no means am I focusing that lens on the lgbt community - it holds for everyone. Getting frustrated at bureaucracy acting like a bureaucracy is normal and it happens to all of us. No need to go make a scene, whether it's whipping your tits out or screaming at the teller or driving your car into a wall or what have you.

While true, do you think that a person in such a unique state as the one in the OP would have gotten any resolution (positive or negative) if they had just gone about their merry way, with an "incorrect" drivers license? What would have happened, had she been pulled over for speeding, or a tail light? The police officer would more than likely have taken her in for having a "false" ID, and instead of looking like a hero or martyr to some, she'd look like a complete villain (especially in a place as deep in the bible belt as Tennessee)

Do you really think a police officer would have arrested Andrea for "false ID"? Because I think that is fairly ludicrous. People don't get arrested for having expired IDs, or incorrect names/addresses on their IDs. The theoretical police officer would probably not have even said anything.

 d-usa wrote:
So many of us who usually spend most of our time in the OT disagreeing with each other are on the same page in this thread.

Almost makes me shed a tear...

Right there with ya man.

Hard to say. It's just speculation, of course. What we do know is that the DMV folks refused to let her update her ID, which is dumb. By taking off her shirt she underscored the point that physically she looks female, and that's all the DMV should really care about.

 d-usa wrote:
So many of us who usually spend most of our time in the OT disagreeing with each other are on the same page in this thread.

Almost makes me shed a tear...

It's almost like there is hope for the human race

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:


So a known and diagnosed psychological and biological disorder is now in ANY WAY comparable to voluntary behavior that also, shockingly enough does NOTHING to harm you or affect the way you live your life? Which again, oddly neither do trans individuals. Why do you care so much about other people's lives that you have to tear them down for their medical conditions or personal life choices? Do you need to control things that much? Is it that vital for you to impose your bronze age morality on everyone around you?

There is a fallacy in thinking that the philosophy of the transgendered and homosexual "hurts no one". How many young confused men have been bamboozled into becoming something they are not, because no one had the guts to stand up to the lie they were being told, that there are "alternate lifestyles" and these "alternate lifestyles" are just fine because they hurt no one.

There are many people that have come out of that lifestyle, including transgendered people, who come to realize they were lied to, by the PC Big brother police.

And yes, those people were indeed harmed.. by the enablers, that had no intestinal fortitude to stand up to the so often modern problem of calling what is wrong.... right. And what is right...wrong

GG

 Bromsy wrote:
No need to go make a scene, whether it's whipping your tits out or screaming at the teller or driving your car into a wall or what have you.

But you have to look at her behavior in context. You or I (presumably) wouldn't get too upset about a mistake on our driver's license, because we don't have to deal with mistakes (or "mistakes" that are really just bigotry) in our everyday lives. If the DMV gets my eye color wrong it's slightly annoying and I might complain to my friends about how incompetent the DMV is, but it's really no big deal. On the other hand, the person in the OP has probably had to deal with a constant supply of people making "mistakes" about her gender, insisting that she's "really a man", etc. So in that context refusal to get it right is a lot more serious, and justifies a stronger reaction.

PC Big Brother Police... lets you do what you want?

 purplefood wrote:
PC Big Brother Police... lets you do what you want?

NO they make you think that doing what is wrong..is actually right.

Like thought crimes.

For example look at some of the reactions in this thread... anyone who has an opinion that transgender/homsexuality is wrong is immediately labeled ignorant/backwards/or a bigot.

Thats classic "thought police" stuff right there.


GG

The other way of looking at it, as far as why there is such, shall we say, "across the aisle" agreement is that there is something in this story for everyone. Liberals are typically predisposed to the struggles of the LGBT community as that political persuasion has a plank of social welfare in it; but small "c" conservatives & libertarians, I presume, can't help but be displeased at this display of what to them is a typical brutish overreach of a government bureaucracy interfering with your most basic right; to be free to be yourself. This kind of meddling in private affairs with no actual governmental interest really has to be anathema to them.

 generalgrog wrote:
There is a fallacy in thinking that the philosophy of the transgendered and homosexual "hurts no one".

There is no "philosophy" here. We're talking about clear scientific evidence that transgendered people have various physical differences from "normal" people, including a mismatch between brain structure (especially the internal "map" of how your body is supposed to be) and body. That's way more than just a deciding one day that it would be fun to be a woman instead of a man.

How many young confused men have been bamboozled into becoming something they are not, because no one had the guts to stand up to the lie they were being told, that there are "alternate lifestyles" and these "alternate lifestyles" are just fine because they hurt no one.

Very, very few I suspect. Considering how much hate these people face from the rest of society (extreme risk of depression/suicide, frequently losing their jobs, etc) you'd have to be very serious about having a brain/body mismatch to decide you're transgendered and put up with the hell of trying to fix the problem. Very few people would be willing to face that just because they had a random "hey, I could be a girl" impulse one day and nobody tried to stop them.

Also, virtually all of the "harm" done by those "alternative lifestyles" comes from outside. If you take away the bigots and just leave people to do what they want instead of telling them how repulsive they are and how they're going to hell for their disgusting lifestyle you'll find that the harm goes away.

 generalgrog wrote:
There is a fallacy in thinking that the philosophy of the transgendered and homosexual "hurts no one". How many young confused men have been bamboozled into becoming something they are not, because no one had the guts to stand up to the lie they were being told, that there are "alternate lifestyles" and these "alternate lifestyles" are just fine because they hurt no one.

There are many people that have come out of that lifestyle, including transgendered people, who come to realize they were lied to, by the PC Big brother police.

And yes, those people were indeed harmed.. by the enablers, that had no intestinal fortitude to stand up to the so often modern problem of calling what is wrong.... right. And what is right...wrong

GG

Seeing as many jurisdictions make it compulsory to undergo therapy, have to start transitioning to their desired gender over a period of years, take hormones for a protracted period and then are only eligible for surgery after psychological examination I would hope that very few, if any, "confused men have been bamboozled into becoming something they are not"

 Peregrine wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
No need to go make a scene, whether it's whipping your tits out or screaming at the teller or driving your car into a wall or what have you.

But you have to look at her behavior in context. You or I (presumably) wouldn't get too upset about a mistake on our driver's license, because we don't have to deal with mistakes (or "mistakes" that are really just bigotry) in our everyday lives. If the DMV gets my eye color wrong it's slightly annoying and I might complain to my friends about how incompetent the DMV is, but it's really no big deal. On the other hand, the person in the OP has probably had to deal with a constant supply of people making "mistakes" about her gender, insisting that she's "really a man", etc. So in that context refusal to get it right is a lot more serious, and justifies a stronger reaction.

Oh, I get that. I'm just a pretty self controlled person and dream that others would match my lofty standards. If for some reason I decided to undergo gender reassignment, the chances of me baring my bosoms to prove I'm a woman to the DMV are still functionally nil. Now if the DMV took me out to a nice dinner and bought me some drinks, that might change things.

 generalgrog wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:


So a known and diagnosed psychological and biological disorder is now in ANY WAY comparable to voluntary behavior that also, shockingly enough does NOTHING to harm you or affect the way you live your life? Which again, oddly neither do trans individuals. Why do you care so much about other people's lives that you have to tear them down for their medical conditions or personal life choices? Do you need to control things that much? Is it that vital for you to impose your bronze age morality on everyone around you?

There is a fallacy in thinking that the philosophy of the transgendered and homosexual "hurts no one". How many young confused men have been bamboozled into becoming something they are not, because no one had the guts to stand up to the lie they were being told, that there are "alternate lifestyles" and these "alternate lifestyles" are just fine because they hurt no one.

There are many people that have come out of that lifestyle, including transgendered people, who come to realize they were lied to, by the PC Big brother police.

And yes, those people were indeed harmed.. by the enablers, that had no intestinal fortitude to stand up to the so often modern problem of calling what is wrong.... right. And what is right...wrong

GG

Edited until I know what the feth you're talking about.

 generalgrog wrote:
For example look at some of the reactions in this thread... anyone who has an opinion that transgender/homsexuality is wrong is immediately labeled ignorant/backwards/or a bigot.

Thats classic "thought police" stuff right there.

So, General - if I may be so bold to ask - what made you decide to choose being heterosexual?

 generalgrog wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
PC Big Brother Police... lets you do what you want?

NO they make you think that doing what is wrong..is actually right.

Like thought crimes.

For example look at some of the reactions in this thread... anyone who has an opinion that transgender/homsexuality is wrong is immediately labeled ignorant/backwards/or a bigot.

Thats classic "thought police" stuff right there.


GG

I'd like to think I feel that because I'm not a dick...
If I'm not hurt or particularly put out of my way why do I care if someone wants to get their gender reassigned? Why do you care? What's your interest in other people's genitals? Why do you care who they have sex with?
Such questions are a Thursday built on...

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 generalgrog wrote:
There is a fallacy in thinking that the philosophy of the transgendered and homosexual "hurts no one". How many young confused men have been bamboozled into becoming something they are not, because no one had the guts to stand up to the lie they were being told, that there are "alternate lifestyles" and these "alternate lifestyles" are just fine because they hurt no one.

There are many people that have come out of that lifestyle, including transgendered people, who come to realize they were lied to, by the PC Big brother police.

And yes, those people were indeed harmed.. by the enablers, that had no intestinal fortitude to stand up to the so often modern problem of calling what is wrong.... right. And what is right...wrong

GG

Seeing as many jurisdictions make it compulsory to undergo therapy, have to start transitioning to their desired gender over a period of years, take hormones for a protracted period and then are only eligible for surgery after psychological examination I would hope that very few, if any, "confused men have been bamboozled into becoming something they are not"

Yes, there are men who have went all the way with the hormones and surgery, only to find out they had it all wrong. Now they face years of undoing all the harm they did to themselves.

GG

 generalgrog wrote:
And yes, those people were indeed harmed.. by the enablers, that had no intestinal fortitude to stand up to the so often modern problem of calling what is wrong.... right. And what is right...wrong.

That's a modern problem? Huh. Here's me thinking that, for example, it's historically a problem that people have called things "right" and "natural", like slavery, and racism, and bigotry, and intolerance, and the domination of women, that were in fact wrong, and evil.

In reality, overall we're making progress. We're growing up a bit as a species as the boundaries of our knowledge expand and push back the areas of darkness; of fear and ignorance. It wasn't all that long ago, for example, that folks made arguments that interracial couples shouldn't be allowed to adopt. Or that there were laws forbidding interreligious marriage.

If a person COULD be talked into thinking that they're gay, that's clear evidence that sexuality isn't as black and white as some folks claim. Real people exist on a spectrum of variations. Gradations of color or shades of grey. Attempting to shoehorn everyone into being black or white is dumb, harmful, and ignorant. If, as Ouze asked, one day you had to make a conscious decision to be heterosexual, that means you're somewhere in the middle. Me, I never had a choice in the matter. Dudes just don't appeal. So maybe it's easier for me to understand the transgender folks than you; I just know that I'm straight, and a dude. So if someone else knows, in their soul and their heart, that they're gay, or actually the opposite gender from their body's physical sex, that provokes sympathy in me;, rather than skepticism.

Big Brother thought police! Tricking people into thinking they're gay!

 generalgrog wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:


So a known and diagnosed psychological and biological disorder is now in ANY WAY comparable to voluntary behavior that also, shockingly enough does NOTHING to harm you or affect the way you live your life? Which again, oddly neither do trans individuals. Why do you care so much about other people's lives that you have to tear them down for their medical conditions or personal life choices? Do you need to control things that much? Is it that vital for you to impose your bronze age morality on everyone around you?

There is a fallacy in thinking that the philosophy of the transgendered and homosexual "hurts no one". How many young confused men have been bamboozled into becoming something they are not, because no one had the guts to stand up to the lie they were being told, that there are "alternate lifestyles" and these "alternate lifestyles" are just fine because they hurt no one.

There are many people that have come out of that lifestyle, including transgendered people, who come to realize they were lied to, by the PC Big brother police.

And yes, those people were indeed harmed.. by the enablers, that had no intestinal fortitude to stand up to the so often modern problem of calling what is wrong.... right. And what is right...wrong

GG

And it is their mistake, No ones elses. You own every choice you make in your life. As Cady stanton said, We all walk alone in this life

 generalgrog wrote:
Yes, there are men who have went all the way with the hormones and surgery, only to find out they had it all wrong. Now they face years of undoing all the harm they did to themselves.

How many men? How does that number compare to the number of people who did all of that and were happy with the results, or were denied that opportunity (or had people like you telling them they're "really men" and making their lives miserable) and hated the results? Do you actually have any solid evidence that this is a non-trivial problem, or did you find a tiny number of cases from bigoted sources eager to present a tiny minority as the majority?

 d-usa wrote:
So many of us who usually spend most of our time in the OT disagreeing with each other are on the same page in this thread.

Almost makes me shed a tear...

I know, I've never seen so many people varying politically (conservatives, liberals, libertarians, social democrats, etc) agreeing on so much.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Hard to say. It's just speculation, of course. What we do know is that the DMV folks refused to let her update her ID, which is dumb. By taking off her shirt she underscored the point that physically she looks female, and that's all the DMV should really care about.

: ) agreed

You know, I do see a common link to what many are saying.

People should be allowed to "feel out" how they are in their own skin.

Others REALLY should keep their traps shut on whichever way the wind blows for or against "normal" vs. "alternative" life styles.

Every last one of us has an agenda, well intentioned or not.

The person only needs our support when they themselves have committed to whom and how they want to be.

I have had a lifetime of being told who to be and quite violently told people to go stuff themselves and focus more on correcting their own lives before feeling entitled to messing with mine.

I have been blessed with making friends of a huge cross-section of race, gender and sex orientation. Just provide acceptance of their choices and applaud their honesty to themselves. Anyone else of strong opinions I respectfully ask to keep their trap shut and suck it up, the moaning of what is right only displays an inflexible mind...