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So, sorry, I'm making another "which power weapon should I take?" thread. The twist with this one is that I'm getting close to finishing my conversion of an imperial guard primaris psyker, and I have the intention of running him as a biomancer who can beat stuff up in close combat, and that's where things are getting tricky for me. I'm down to the rather obvious choice of force staff vs. force axe, and how they react specifically with biomancy powers.

Pro-staff:

- You're not going to use the instant death feature often anyways, and the staff makes the best use of both iron arm and warp speed (the axe still striking at I1, rather than up to I6).

- You're not seriously going to do much to terminators or monstrous creatures anyways, let's be realistic. Ap4 is good enough against the things you're actually going to want to engage in close combat, rather than just sitting back and using smite or whatever on. Plus, the staff is going to be better in challenges against things with power fists.

- With Iron Arm, you can get up to S8, which makes you a credible threat against vehicles. The axe has Ap2, granted, but what's the odds I'm going to blow up many vehicles straight away anyways?

- You can actually be GOOD against a class of targets in close combat, while an axe makes you only so-so against everything.

- It makes the model look like a proper wizard.


Pro-axe:

- You DO have an instant death feature on the weapon, which you're never going to use on the mace, but you might with the axe. Causing a single wound without any biomancy buffs against, say, a monstrous creature is going to be a bit tricky, but it's also going to be possible, and what an effect that would have if it happens.

- With Iron Arm and a 5++ you're more likely to actually use an axe than almost anything else in the codex. You actually COULD potentially kill a terminator or two, or finish off a weakened monstrous creature, something that you're really unlikely to do with a staff.

- An axe can handle any target in the game, or at least hurt it. If you're not able to rush in and handle anything that gets thrown at you, then why don't you pick something other than biomancy?

- You can model an axe as a spear with force weapons (unlike with power weapons), which would fit the warrior-wizard motif much better.


Anyways, I keep going back and forth on this, and I'm getting pretty close to the point where I just have to model the weapon and be done with it. Is there something I'm missing?

I would personally go for the axe.
Striking last will be less of an issue if you are intending to hide the Psyker in a squad which you presumably are.

I feel like the most effective targets for a biomancy psyker would be things that have a better than 4+ save so I feel like the staff is a bit redundant.

My first reaction was both! Is there not a way you could model it so you can change your mind quite easily?

I lean towards the mace. Being able to ID MEQ (and hilariously Librarians) is pretty decent. I also believe that the mace puts out a large amount of wounds which will kill a few MEQ by forcing saves alone. On top of that you're taking advantage of the initiative bonus. Which would be silly to waste if you get. Being able to kill vehicles is also great in my opinion.
Also you're great against boyz, guard, FW and importantly, daemons with invulnerables.

The above poster makes a decent point, but I believe that anything with a 2+ should be shot anyway. Getting into CC with terminators will result in a dead psycher, and a couple of dead terminators.

Pro Axe-
Without warp speed you are striking after most non necron, non powerfist models.

It's a Primaris Psyker, so it will never be able to 'beat anything up' in close combat. Just look at that stat line: WS 4, S 3, T 3, W 2, I 3, A 3 Sv 5++
I wouldn't send that against most other Guardsmen let alone the other horrors that exist! Sure, you got a 50% chance of getting something that you can even use in the Assault Phase. But you can't really plan on a 17% chance to get Iron Armor, or Endurance, or Warp Speed.

But since you have your heart set on it...

Take the Force Axe (full disclosure: I'm a Space Wolf player so may be biased). Unwieldy doesn't really effect you. Not many things in the game are Initiative 2, and the few that are you rarely want to be in combat with. Strength 4 is decent against most things you'd stand a chance surviving against, and while being Strength 5 is preferable what really seals the deal is being AP 2.

Let's compare things against vanilla Space Marines. Assume you are already in Combat and no blows have landed:

Force Axe (no bonus): 0.75 unsaved Wounds
Force Axe (Iron Arm +1 S): 1.00 unsaved Wounds
Force Axe (Iron Arm +2 S): 1.25 unsaved Wounds
Force Axe (Iron Arm +3 S): 1.25 unsaved Wounds
Force Axe (Warp Speed +1 A): 1.00 unsaved Wounds
Force Axe (Warp Speed +2 A): 1.25 unsaved Wounds
Force Axe (Warp Speed +3 A): 1.50 unsaved Wounds

Force Staff (no bonus): 0.33 unsaved Wounds
Force Staff (Iron Arm +1 S): 0.42 unsaved Wounds
Force Staff (Iron Arm +2 S): 0.42 unsaved Wounds
Force Staff (Iron Arm +3 S): 0.42 unsaved Wounds
Force Staff (Warp Speed +1 A): 0.44 unsaved Wounds
Force Staff (Warp Speed +2 A): 0.56 unsaved Wounds
Force Staff (Warp Speed +3 A): 0.67 unsaved Wounds

It is worth noting that for a Force Axe these results are the same against Terminators as well, while for the Force Staff things get noticeably worse. Point is, against Space Marines the Force Axe is vastly more effective than the Force Staff for killing models. Regardless of what power is used. While its cute that you can be Initiative 6 with the Force Staff if you make the 17% chance to get Warp Speed and the 33% chance to roll a 3 on a D3 (never mind having to pass your Perils roll, and Emperor help you if there is a Runic Weapon nearby), you will be lucky to cause just one unsaved wound with the thing.

I can keep going on for a while if you'd like, but the short of it is that the lower AP wins in Combat if you have several wounds and an Invulnerable save. Especially if you are Initiative 4 or lower normally.

cowmonaut wrote:

It is worth noting that for a Force Axe these results are the same against Terminators as well, while for the Force Staff things get noticeably worse.

Terminators come stock with 5++ saves, so the Axe loses 33% effectiveness. The Staff 50% effectiveness.
Terminators with 3++ are pretty common. The axe loses 66% effectivness compared to normal meq. The staff loses 50% effectiveness.

Axe, when you're swinging last anyway, as nearly he always will, benefit from the AP 2 so it's more likely to get that wound off.

I would probably go with staff, but that is because I own the metal primaris and can't change it anyway. The extra point of strength really helps out a str 3 model, where wounding is a pretty big hurdle. Most models with a 3+ save or better are going to have invulnerable saves anyway, so the extra wounds will be useful.

Staffs fit the "old man who can melt your brain" vibe better as well.

I say axe modeled as a spear.

I think that will give you the best visual effect, and that you will find the axe serving you better in combat. Personal opinion, of course.

I'd vote for a force staff. You want the extra strength. I also see an equal share of Xenos armies in my area. Ap 4 is enough on weak guard units. I have had good experience with a power maul on my commissar lately. The way I see it: most things you wont want to fight in hand to hand, the armies you don't mind getting into hand to hand the plus strength and ap4 is enough to kick some Xenos butt.

Well, going over some things said:

Pro-staff

- There are tons of things that are I3 or worse out there. Everything SoB, guard, necron, ork, tau, henchmen (so, most GK I come across), and anything with an unwieldy weapon.

Furthermore, look at stuff that does get to go at I4 or faster. Lightning claw termiantors, demon princes, death cult assassins. You're not going to survive long enough to swing either weapon, which isn't much of a pro for the axe.

The whole "you'll strike last anyways" has never made much sense to me. Really, the only difference it's going to make is against things which are both fast, but also have weak attacks (like tac marines, which I've never gotten even close to close combat with anything that I've started on the board this entire rules edition).

- Indeed, anything with a serious invul save seriously cuts down on what any of the power weapon options can do, so there isn't much lost with the staff.

Pro-axe

- yes, but what's the point? LOTS of stuff in the guard arsenal can handle Sv4+. It's not like we have hellhounds or heavy bolters everywhere or anything.

If you're going to bother at all, it's going to be to go after the big stuff. Big stuff that you can't wound, except you've got iron arm, so you can. Big stuff that would cause instant death to you, but you've got iron arm, so it won't. Big stuff that you can't necessarily guarantee the charge against, but with enfeeble, you can. Big stuff that you can't possibly strip all the wounds off, but with a force weapon, you might.

It doesn't matter if the staff is better against most targets if it's not best against the RIGHT targets. For those, you just need Ap2. No exceptions. Plus, you'd take a power fist if you could, but you can't, so take the force axe.

But then things get even more complicated...

Pro-sword

- Clearly you're overlooking the best option by not picking up a force sword. Anything with a Sv2+ isn't something that you're ever going to want to engage in close combat for any reason at all.

Meanwhile, the Sv3+ is useful against everything else (including demon princes and the like), and it doesn't waste the initiative if you get warp speed, and if you get iron arm, you make up for the one actual problem of the sword - lack of strength. Yes, with iron arm you could have an S8 stick, but with a sword, you can still have S6, which still wounds practically everything on 2's, and it comes with Ap3, so screw you all. Plus, for however much xenos are going to fear a warp speed or iron arm staff, they're going to pretty much equally fear those things on a sword, so the staff's one key advantage isn't very... advantageous.

So are you leaning towards the sword? I think the axe is a total waste on this model, so is it a choice between the sword and the staff now?

Something else to take into consideration is what is the unit composition of the psykers unit you are attaching him to? You can always give your sergeants axes to counter terminators.

Sword > Staff

They both don't slow you down, while the staff gives you +2S, the AP4 will hurt if he's caught in combat against MEQs, who will laugh off the AP4 staff. Most likely you will be challenged, or choose to challenge by an unwieldy character, so striking at initiative, and at the same time ignoring (more than likely) his 3+ or worse armor save will result in a preserved Primaris Psyker. Since biomancy will most likely be rolled on, Iron arm/Warp Speed/Enfeeble will help deal with problems wounding other characters.

I like the staff. The extra strength offsets the AP difference a bit against 3+. Against 4+ or worse saves you're laughing. Against 2+ you're in trouble anyway.

I'd go for the staff, Guard wounding on 3+ vs most enemies is very handy.

TheLionOfTheForest wrote: I think the axe is a total waste on this model, so is it a choice between the sword and the staff now?

I have no idea. For most units, which power weapon to take is rather obvious. Really not so with the primaris, especially one rolling biomancy.

To put things another way:

Anti-staff:

- The one and only thing you gain from this is the extra strength, but you're going to roll iron arm, which gives any weapon enough strength, or +A, or -1T on enemy units, which is roughly the same. Why do you really need the extra strength, then?

Anti-axe:

- Yes, you're taking this to get into epic fights with monstrous creatures and space marine characters and warbosses, etc, so really, no substitute for Ap2. But what about everything else? The axe isn't BAD against everything else, and you've got that invul save etc., but then, you're not really GOOD against the rest of stuff, compared to the other options. Let's be honest, anything that kills off stuff before they get to swing is rather automatically better than something that risks the psyker being killed before it gets to attack. I mean, if you wanted something with an invul save and +S Ap2, then why don't you just take an eviscerator priest, or straken, or something?

Anti-sword:

- How many times have you actually gotten into close combat with something Sv3+? Really. Ap3 isn't really an advantage if you don't actually get to use it. You've still got to run away from Sv2+ stuff, like the mace, but unlike the mace, you don't even get the potentially dizzying S advantages, which are always useful against everybody always.

So, on a different note, I've nearly gotten my psyker done, as mentioned. Nearly all I have left to do is make the weapon. I know that aesthetics aren't strictly useful in a tactical discussion, but here's what I've gotten anyways...

Axe. The other options are completely dependent on getting the right psychic power AND getting it through psychic defense AND not wanting to just take a shooting power and kill the enemy that way. The axe is still a viable option when you get the powers to work, but is the only one that is useful if you have to charge in without them.

Not that you should be using a melee psyker at all, but that's a different discussion...

Who are you running the psyker with and how are they equipped? That should dictate what weapon you give the psyker.
If he's with ogryns, you would probably want the axe. If he's with a blob with axes on the sergeants then I would give him the staff. If he's with one veteren squad in a chimera then you probably want the same type of weapon on him and the Srg (ie axe) so of one is called out and has to hide you still get one axe swinging.

Like you said with other units it is obvious: termie librarian gets the axe hands down.

With guard you really have to think about the situations you are going to want to get into hand to hand and the situations you will try to avoid hand to hand and then pick the weapon that works best for the majority of situations.

If you have a ton of ap2 shooting weapons then wouldn't you prefer to shoot those terminators off the board then engage in hand to hand.

To bring up my commissar again, thematically he looks like a bad ass bashing in kroot or Ork skulls, it's nice to know he can get stuck in with those enemies. But would I really want to equip him with an axe and go toe to toe with a terminator? No way! That's what my shooting is for. He has more wounds than a psyker, will still die to strength 6 weapons but can at least get carapace armor and some extra wargear. He does quite well melta bombing vehicals and fighting Xenos, he is the rock of the blob.

Identify what your psyker will be doing on the table and that should make it clearer.

You have me wanting to field a psyker now, maybe he will team up well with a commissar in my army.

Peregrine wrote:The axe is still a viable option when you get the powers to work, but is the only one that is useful if you have to charge in without them.

Well, it works both ways, and I think that's part of the problem. The axe certainly doesn't need the biomancy powers as much as the staff does. On the other hand, the staff actually makes more use out of the biomancy powers than the axe.

Iron Arm is certainly useful to both weapons, but it's more useful for the staff. Against things that you're going to use said staff, that +T is actually going to be useful (while a monstrous creature or thunderhammer will probably wound you on a 2+ anyways), and having S7 is neat, but having S8 opens up whole new worlds, like IDing T4 stuff (they are going to get an armor save, but they only need to fail one), and glancing land raiders. Meanwhile, the axe, being used against more threatening stuff, will make much, much better use out of that eternal warrior. But, in a way, it's the wrong kind of use. You could argue that the axe really NEEDS to draw Iron Arm to be properly useful against the scariest stuff, and that only happens 1/3 of the time. Without Iron Arm, how much of a chance do you really stand against that monstrous creature? Would you still go into close combat, even with Ap2?

Likewise, the axe doesn't need warp speed, but it doesn't make as much use out of it. Meanwhile, the staff gets to throw down 5-8 S5 attacks at up to I6. At that point, you don't even need better Ap to handle W1 Sv3+ models, and, more importantly, completely throws out the "you're going to strike last anyways" argument in favor of the axe. Meanwhile, you're rather guaranteed to make a mess of lighter stuff.

And endurance too. The worst stuff that you really need an axe for isn't going to allow you to use FNP (which is only going to be useful against lighter stuff, where the staff is better), or it will not die (because you'll have suffered instant death).

So while the axe doesn't need the psychic powers, it doesn't use them as well either. This seems like the first proper argument in favor of the staff. Perhaps the axe is the better weapon in general, or better if you're rolling pyromancy or telekinesis. But for biomancy, in particular, is the staff actually the better buy?

 Ailaros wrote:
but having S8 opens up whole new worlds, like IDing T4 stuff (they are going to get an armor save, but they only need to fail one)

You have a force weapon. Why are you worrying about IDing stuff through double strength? Just hit them with the axe, ignore their armor, and activate the force weapon to make it fatal.

and glancing land raiders.

This is so ridiculously unlikely that it's not even worth thinking about it. Kill Land Raiders with proper anti-tank units, not a psyker that has to roll the right power, get through psychic defense, and then pray for 6s just to glance it.

Without Iron Arm, how much of a chance do you really stand against that monstrous creature?

So what? Kill MCs with plasma and lascannons, not in melee. The psyker is never going to be very effective against them (don't forget that if you're STR 8 you don't get to instant death them) so, like the Land Raider, why even consider it?

But for biomancy, in particular, is the staff actually the better buy?

Not in a world where everyone can take Eldar or SW allies and shut down psychic powers. If that rune priest rolls a 4+ and you took a staff your psyker is useless that turn. If you have an axe you can still kill something.

Put a glaive on him and you can use an axe one game and a sword the next. Or put a staff and just magnetize an axe head and see what works.

The choice is really a meta dependent one. In a SM meta with a fair amount of Sv2+ then the axe is king.

In xenos meta then the staff outperforms the rest by a fair margin.

In a TAC squad only meta then the sword is the best...does this meta exist?

Not seeing the benefit of biomancy here - iron arm maybe keeps him alive a little longer in CC, but to do what? It's not like a hive tyrant that can still waste units in CC, without unit buffing spells or offensive attacks all he's there for is because you have to take an HQ. Enfeeble is maybe the only power that he would really want from the biomancy table. I think there are better ways to go with him psychically.

In combat, you presumably stick him at the back and have sergeants accept all the challenges. Rule of cool therefore applies - you give him a weapon you hope he never really has to use, so use what looks best on the model ... I'd say a stave.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
but having S8 opens up whole new worlds, like IDing T4 stuff (they are going to get an armor save, but they only need to fail one)

You have a force weapon. Why are you worrying about IDing stuff through double strength? Just hit them with the axe, ignore their armor, and activate the force weapon to make it fatal.

With only one warp charge, you can't use the force on your own turn if you want to cast any powers. That makes getting str 8 quite useful if you want to charge. However, you run the risk of only having str 7 I suppose.

The sword is clearly the worst. Woudning on 5s or 6s isnt where you want to be. It is useless against 2+ saves and much much much worse against 4+ saves.

Almost all things with a 3+ save are going to be striking before you so go with the axe. 3+ Necrons and SoB aside, you are going to want the +1 strength

I'd go with the Axe. Played a game last night where by Blob got assaulted by a jumping Dreadknight. Got an ID Force Axe wound in and almost killed it but it made its 5++. Force Stave would of never had a chance.

Most likely your PP will be in a infantry blob so you have plenty of ablative wounds to wait till I1. Also I1 means you can wait until others have moved in base contact and your less likely to have to allocate wounds on the PP in assault.

Exergy wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:

It is worth noting that for a Force Axe these results are the same against Terminators as well, while for the Force Staff things get noticeably worse.

Terminators come stock with 5++ saves, so the Axe loses 33% effectiveness. The Staff 50% effectiveness.
Terminators with 3++ are pretty common. The axe loses 66% effectivness compared to normal meq. The staff loses 50% effectiveness.

Good point. I didn't factor in the 5++ when talking about Terminators, nor the 3++ (mainly because I roll with Space Wolves and I dislike the point cost of lots of Storm Shields). So taking that into consideration:
What does all this tell us?

1) Staves are garbage against anything with a 3+ Save. Buffed out, they barely edge out over the unbuffed Axe or Sword.
2) Axes are more likely to kill anything, regardless if of the benefits of Iron Arm or Warp Speed.
3) Swords really suck against anything with a 2+ Save. But then we already knew that...
4) Swords are worse than Axes against the same targets due to the Strength bonus Axes get. Another obvious fact...

So what are you going to have this guy fight most often? Is Initiative 3 worth having? Is it worth gambling for that 17% chance you'll get Warp Speed? Or are you better off sacrificing your Initiative in order to do more when you get to strike?

And sorry Ailaros, the staff is really just not good. Even against a MC it is sub par. With WS 4, you are still hitting anything with a WS between 4 and 8 on a 4+. WS 9 you are dead likely, and needing 5+'s to hit. But just for grins, let's look at you trying to wound Toughness 6:

Almost every single MC in the game has a 3+ Save or better. Several of those have a 5+ Invulnerable Save on top of that. The break down is clear:

1) Again, the Power Axe is more likely to put out unsaved Wounds than any other weapon.
2) Against the 3+ save you are likely to encounter on an MC, the Power Sword comes in a close second.
3) The Staff is essentially equal to the Sword vs an Invulnerable 5+, despite its bonus to Strength, thanks to the fact it is only AP 4.


The numbers speak loudly to me on this. For Power Weapons/Force Weapons the choice is clearly between the Axe or the Sword, while the Mace/Staff options fall to a distant third. The Axe and Sword are better against more targets, and more importantly are better against the targets you might actually end up in a Challenge against. The only real question is do you risk losing against some targets because you gambled on a higher Initiative paying off (not guaranteed).

Edit: I always wondered what the point to Power Axes was when compared to Power Fists (besides point cost). Apparently, talking SM vs SM here, an Axe will edge out in number of wounds over a Power Fist: 1.33 vs 1.25 unsaved Wounds. Against T6 its 0.67 vs 1.25. So the point cost difference is purely for if you are dealing with anything T5 or higher (Axes will do 1.00 unsaved wounds vs 1.25). I'm glad we'll be seeing less Power Fists. Always thought it was a little boring!

Edit Edit: Crap. I just realized that a Primaris Psyker has 3 Attacks in his profile. Math is going to be slightly off due to me not counting the +1 Attack for two Close Combat Weapons. Luckily Warp Speed show's how increasing the number of attacks steps up!

I'd say the numbers speak clearly to me as well, were the fact that they're being done so strangely. Tell me, against which monstrous creature are you only putting down a sixth of a wound that sticks with a force staff? It's like you're forgetting the fact that the staff is +2S or something. And there's stuff outside of the quoted numbers. For example, you do know that you get to roll for two powers, and that duplicates can be rerolled, right? Also, some of the numbers you're bringing up are useless. Why bother comparing the axe and the staff against a hive tyrant or a swarmlord, when there's no chance I'm going to get to swing either weapon? The fact that the axe is technically less worse isn't actually a benefit if I'll never get to swing it.

Not only are you adding in information of questionable value, but you're leaving out important stuff. For example, warp speed brings up the staff's initiative, which means it's going to get to strike before most things it attacks. Really, you've got to compare the damage from a force staff against the force axe very possibly not even getting a chance to swing at all, thanks to its initiative penalty.

Also, I don't get your interpretations either. For example, The fact that the sword and staff are roughly equal against a T6 3+/5++ is a very serious strike against the sword, not the staff. If Sv3+ is the one thing the sword is supposed to do well, and it doesn't even to it that much better than a staff, then why ever bother with a sword, given that the staff is so much better against other stuff.

 Ailaros wrote:
I'd say the numbers speak clearly to me as well, were the fact that they're being done so strangely. Tell me, against which monstrous creature are you only putting down a sixth of a wound that sticks with a force staff? It's like you're forgetting the fact that the staff is +2S or something.

No, I'm taking the +2S from the Staff and the +1S from the Axe into account.

The numbers in the second spoiler are for fighting any model that is WS 4-8 and T 6 with a 3+ Save. Flip to pages 410 - 416 in the BRB. Look at all the MC's:


Most of these are T 6-7. Most of the ones you run into (Daemon Princes, Bloodthirster, Hive Tyrant, Tervigon, Trygon, Avatar, Wraithlord are the ones I see most often. How about you?) usually are Toughness 6 and have a 3+ save. Some of those have a 5++ save on top of that. WS 4 hits WS 4 through 8 on a 4+. So this is why I chose the target Toughness and Save to deal with.

I suggest you check out Redbeard's Math Hammer guide (linked in my sig) but I'll walk you through everything anyways:

- 3 attacks in your profile. I already mentioned that I forgot to take the +1 attack for two weapons into account, so it should be 4.
- WS 4 means you need a 4, 5 or 6 on a 6 sided dice to hit, unless you are dealing with WS 1, 2, 3, 9, or 10. So 3/6 results are a hit.
- S 3 base +2 S for your weapon is S 5. S 5 wounds T 6 on a 5 or 6. So 2/6 results are a wound.
- AP 4 means a 3+ Save. You need a 1 or a 2 result on the D6 to have an unsaved wound. So 2/6 results in an unsaved wound.

Do the math: 3 attacks * (3/6) * (2/6) * (2/6) = 0.1666666666666667 = 0.17 unsaved wounds.

Want it done for 4 attacks? That's 0.22 unsaved wounds. 5 attacks for charging? 0.28.

Look at the numbers. I even did the math for +3 S from Iron Arm. 3 + 2 + 3 = 8 S. For T 6 that means you need a 2+ to wound, so 5/6. Let's do the math again for 4 attacks: 4 * (3/6) * (5/6) * (2/6) = 0.56 unsaved wounds against Toughness 6 with a 3+ save. That means that an Axe (Force or Power) with Iron Arm giving +1 S is just about as effective as a Staff with a perfect roll for Iron Arm.

 Ailaros wrote:
And there's stuff outside of the quoted numbers. For example, you do know that you get to roll for two powers, and that duplicates can be rerolled, right?

You have a roughly 17% chance to get any one result on the table. That means its an 83% chance to not get what you want in the first place. That means on your second roll you are still getting something you don't want roughly 67% of the time. You only have a roughly 31% chance to get the actual specific result you want with the re-roll taken into account. If you don't care if you get Iron Arm or Warp Speed so long as you get one of those powers then its a 55% chance on your second try (with the re-roll) and a 33% chance on your first try.

 Ailaros wrote:
Also, some of the numbers you're bringing up are useless. Why bother comparing the axe and the staff against a hive tyrant or a swarmlord, when there's no chance I'm going to get to swing either weapon?

There is a slim chance, not no chance. You could (miraculously) make every Invulnerable saving throw. Or you could decide that not challenging the Hive Tyrant is a good idea, and the 'Nid player decides he'd rather do a bunch of damage to your whole unit instead of just killing one model. Also, if you're going to math hammer there's no point in not looking at the whole picture. Especially since it takes almost no effort to just run the numbers real quick.

Besides, there was mention in this thread about one being better against high toughness than the other. You also mentioned before you don't see the point to the "strike last anyways" argument. Well, look at the Initiative value for all those MCs. Carnifexes, Tervirgon, and Tyrannofexes are the only ones that are less than Initiative 4. Most MCs are going to strike before you so all the sudden Unwieldy isn't such a negative factor in that circumstance.

Remember too, the Concussive penalty to Initiative doesn't mean anything if you don't cause an unsaved wound.

 Ailaros wrote:
The fact that the axe is technically less worse isn't actually a benefit if I'll never get to swing it.

...

Also, I don't get your interpretations either. For example, The fact that the sword and staff are roughly equal against a T6 3+/5++ is a very serious strike against the sword, not the staff. If Sv3+ is the one thing the sword is supposed to do well, and it doesn't even to it that much better than a staff, then why ever bother with a sword, given that the staff is so much better against other stuff.

Okay, I'll spell out my interpretation then: look at the big picture. Based on the comment you made there it seems you are looking at these numbers in a vacuum. It may surprise you, but I'm not.

What are you likely to be in close combat with with your Primaris Psyker? MEQ and GEQ. Maybe you'll face something worse than GEQ like Tau. You may also be unlucky enough to face an MC or TEQ too, or some nasty Character. Now look at those numbers again.

The Axe is AP 2. The Staff is AP 4. For MEQ the numbers tell it how it is. For your Primaris Psyker against GEQ an unbuffed Axe is looking at 1.33 unsaved wounds to the Staves 1.67 unsaved wounds. The Staff only can improve on this number with Warp Speed (you are already wounding on a 2+), but the Axe can improve on this number with both Iron Arm and Warp Speed.

So even if you are looking at only killing GEQ, the Axe is more likely to benefit from your random rolling on the Biomancy table. Taking the Axe decreases the chance that your result on the Biomancy table will be less useful, and its pretty close in effectiveness to the Staff against GEQ unbuffed.

But then, you might not always know you are going to fight GEQ. Any TAC list is going to want the more flexible option. The Staff is nearly 50% less effective than the Axe against anything tougher than GEQ. Almost anything tougher than GEQ is also going to strike at a higher Initiative if you don't have Warp Speed, so you don't lose anything with Unwieldy.

How about the Sword against GEQ? Unbuffed your Primaris Psyker is putting out 1.00 unsaved wound to the Staves 1.67, a big drop due to the lack of Strength. With Iron Arm this difference vanishes (66% of the time) and once you remember that there are harder things than GEQ like MEQ or MCs with a 3+, then the Sword comes back and surpasses the Staff.

Really, if anything it shows that if you care about Initiative you should opt for the Sword. If Initiative is not an important factor, then the Axe is the way to go. The only time the Staff is good for you is when you are fighting plain old GEQ, care if you strike at the same time, and don't have Iron Arm (unless all you cared about was the Toughness bonus, but then you are throwing away half the buff from Iron Arm). Against pretty much everything else in the game, the Staff is 3rd place after the Sword (2nd) and Axe (1st).

 Ailaros wrote:
Not only are you adding in information of questionable value, but you're leaving out important stuff. For example, warp speed brings up the staff's initiative, which means it's going to get to strike before most things it attacks. Really, you've got to compare the damage from a force staff against the force axe very possibly not even getting a chance to swing at all, thanks to its initiative penalty.

Is your Primaris Psyker in a unit with other Guardsmen? If so, you being Initiative 1 isn't much of a penalty. If you are positioning your model correctly you'll not be in base to base until the Initiative 1 step so aren't going to need to worry about taking wounds. Unless you are in a Challenge. And if you are in a Challenge then it comes back down to your multiple wounds and 5++ save rather than your Initiative usually.

Unless you are fighting Initiative 3, 2, or 1 you are going last if you don't have Warp Speed. You have less than a 50% chance to even get it once you consider the odds for the first roll (17%) and the odds for the second (31%) so you cannot rely on it IMO. Really, all you are admitting by arguing about the Initiative is that the Primaris Psyker does not belong in close combat. Powers be damned.

Lots of words, but let's bring it back to the actual points. Are axes better against monstrous creatures than maces. Yes. I've already made mention to that. They're also better against terminators etc. as well.

But the point of this isn't necessarily "which is better against a monstrous creature?" It's a matter of which is better over all. Running a bunch of math (which still has errors in it) on just the effectiveness of the two weapons compared to monstrous creatures and terminators and MEq that I'm never actually getting into close combat against isn't terribly helpful. It only tells me what I already knew.

Which means that we need to take it to the next level of abstraction. Given that I have the option of using smite or psychic shriek instead of getting into close combat, what is the most effective close combat weapon? Given that what I'm going up against in close combat may be seriously wounded, what's the best close combat weapon. Given that different biomancy powers interact differently with the different force weapons, what's the best choice?

The answers to these questions can't be solved with giant blocks of numbers alone, much less ones that are insufficiently broad in scope, and prone to the occasional error. At best, you are, in fact, looking at things in a vacuum.

 Ailaros wrote:
Lots of words, but let's bring it back to the actual points.

So you didn't bother reading anything. That's good to know. This post is probably pointless then too but I don't like being misunderstood.

 Ailaros wrote:
But the point of this isn't necessarily "which is better against a monstrous creature?" It's a matter of which is better over all. Running a bunch of math (which still has errors in it) on just the effectiveness of the two weapons compared to monstrous creatures and terminators and MEq that I'm never actually getting into close combat against isn't terribly helpful. It only tells me what I already knew.

Other than missing 1 attack, what other errors exist? I'd like to correct any other mistakes.

That entire last post of mine was about "which is better over all". Also, re-examine what you originally asked:

 Ailaros wrote:
So, sorry, I'm making another "which power weapon should I take?" thread. The twist with this one is that I'm getting close to finishing my conversion of an imperial guard primaris psyker, and I have the intention of running him as a biomancer who can beat stuff up in close combat, and that's where things are getting tricky for me. I'm down to the rather obvious choice of force staff vs. force axe, and how they react specifically with biomancy powers.

Emphasis mine. You yourself stated you intend to run him into close combat, and as a Biomancer so he can "beat stuff up". How can you say that how effective these weapons against MEQ is irrelevant with a straight face? Space Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templar, Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines, and all the Armies that can take them as Allied Detachments are MEQ. Chaos Daemons has MEQ stat lines as well (5++ means you get to use the vs Terminator numbers I had run). So you are telling me that your Character you are kitting out with the intention of being in close combat is only going to get into close combat with Guardsmen, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks and maybe Eldar (both Dark and normal)?

And in that last post I looked at GEQ. I didn't post all the raw numbers for it, but I did discuss the numbers and how Axes/Swords/Staves interact with GEQ too. Ignoring Initiative, Axes are more likely to perform well than Staves. Factoring in Initiative and ignoring MEQ, Staves are good. But once you remember that you are very, very likely to face something that is Toughness 4 and has a 3+ Save, the Sword actually performs better than the Staff.

Taking Biomancy powers, the only time Staves are 'better' than Axes or Swords is if you are facing a foe that is Initiative 3 or less and has a 4+ Save or worse. That's a surprisingly narrow amount of models if the reference section in the back of the BRB is anything to go by.

 Ailaros wrote:
Which means that we need to take it to the next level of abstraction. Given that I have the option of using smite or psychic shriek instead of getting into close combat, what is the most effective close combat weapon? Given that what I'm going up against in close combat may be seriously wounded, what's the best close combat weapon. Given that different biomancy powers interact differently with the different force weapons, what's the best choice?

The answers to these questions can't be solved with giant blocks of numbers alone, much less ones that are insufficiently broad in scope, and prone to the occasional error. At best, you are, in fact, looking at things in a vacuum.

And you are so utterly wrong here it is almost funny. The numbers I ran care only about three things:

1. The target's WS
2. The target's T
3. The target's Sv

All the numbers tell you is how likely you are to dish out an unsaved wound against the target. Nothing else. The questions you are asking have zero bearing on this.

You use Psychic Shriek instead of getting into close combat? Then you aren't in close combat, so which one is better is irrelevant, unless the enemy is able to charge you on his turn.

Your target is down to 1 wound? That's cool. The numbers again only tell you how likely the Psyker is to inflict an unsaved wound. You need at least 1 unsaved wound to kill the target, so clearly whichever weapon is statistically more likely to dish out 1+ unsaved wounds is superior.

Using different Biomancy powers? Well luckily for you I did the numbers for when you have Iron Arm or Warp Speed, and even did the numbers based on what the random die for each of those powers that turn would have been. And I even did it for each and every weapon. You would know that if you bothered to read anything. Upset that Enfeeble wasn't listed? -1 Toughness on the target is the same as +1 Strength for you, so the numbers for Iron Arm apply. Life Leech and Haemorrhage are shooting attacks so irrelevant to close combat, and Endurance is only defensive. What weapon you wield has nothing to do with your defensive capabilities in close combat so it is irrelevant to the question you asked.

 Ailaros wrote:
The answers to these questions can't be solved with giant blocks of numbers alone, much less ones that are insufficiently broad in scope, and prone to the occasional error.

Try reading what I wrote then. Or again. I did not use blocks of numbers alone. I used them in combination with other information and example scenarios to help determine which is the most effective. Insufficiently broad in scope? We're talking about the models you are most likely to face in a tournament or pick up game at the FLGS. If you are playing a friendly game against an opponent you know has no MEQ, then tailor your list. Questions that only matter from a TAC perspective don't apply in that case.

You are the one the said this guy would be in combat with the expectation that he is to beat face. The answer depends entirely on what you are facing, and since you didn't specify an opponent you must be asking from a take-all-comers perspective. With that as the case, you are best off with an Axe or a Sword. Entirely depending on if you plan on avoiding certain enemies.

The only time a Staff works best is if you are against GEQ and don't have Iron Arm. In general, you will be striking after the opponent and the Axe is most likely to land an unsaved wound, period. On the off chance you get to go at the same time, or more rarely first, the Sword is more likely to land an unsaved wound than the Staff.


Ultimately, the real question is which one do you like better. If you want a Staff because "it looks cool", then do it! He's your plasticdudesmen. If you only plan on using this guy against GEQ type armies, then by all means take the Staff. But the facts are that a Staff doesn't perform as well as an Axe or Sword against numerous opponents you will end up in combat with if you are running this guy specifically for combat.