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Hello all,

I am trying to learn all I can about Chaos Space Marines. I have the codex for reference but what I'm looking for here is some help on building competitive lists for tournament play.
I figure that the codex has been out long enough that people should have found what units are the best by now. So...

What are the most popular units? unpopular?
What are the most competitive army lists?
What are the most effective tactics to use?

Thanks in advance!

1d4chan chaos tactics will give you a great summary. Not taking a hekdrake handicaps you, but the meta may have to shift because of Tau and potentially the new Eldar - anti air and full skimmer mech is coming back. Against new tau your heldrake may just be a waste of points compared to something punchier like spawn (I run 10 spawn, personally).

Slaanesh and Nurgle are currently the most competitive right now, but there is room for creativity. Princes and Defilers got knee capped by their points cost but are otherwise decent.

Its easy to overspend on chaos and pay grey knight prices for Space Marines, so pay attention to that.

The general consensus is to avoid the Elite section of the book like the plague (except when taking cult troops as actual troops).

I'm not sure I agree, but I will say that there aren't many bad choices in Fast Attack and Heavy Support.

Chaos has the cheapest/best bikes in the game, and some of the best troops as well.

Are you leaning toward one God or another at this point? They all have their unique playstyle and theme, with their own strengths and weaknesses. You don't have to focus on just one or two, but sometimes it just naturally works that way because a player is drawn to a particular strategy.

Initially I was looking into the 1000 sons, just for their ability to take so much punishment. The Mark also seems to have the most useful special rule in general.
But then I'd be running a very slow army. Do competitive Chaos lists usually need to be quicker? bikes, rhinos, helldrakes, etc.?

Honestly, I wouldn't recommend Chaos unless you already own the models or really like using 2 Heldrakes in every game.

CSM have really poor internal balance, meaning that you have a handful of viable choices surrounded by a lot of crap. Pretty much every tournament CSM army looks the same as a result. 2 Heldrakes, a flex 3rd Fast choice (usually Spawn), Plague/Noise Marines and Cultists in Troops, Lord to unlock said Plague/Noise marines, no Elites, Maulerfiends/Oblits/Havocs to taste and Necron allies in Scythes for mobile scoring. Beyond being mind-numbingly boring to play the same game every time, the CSM list is fairly predictable as everybody has seen it before and knows how to beat it.

Top that off with the asinine forced challenge mechanic and the army just isn't enjoyable to play with or against.

If you still want to use them, just take the above list and go nuts.

Da Skyman wrote:
Initially I was looking into the 1000 sons, just for their ability to take so much punishment. The Mark also seems to have the most useful special rule in general.
But then I'd be running a very slow army. Do competitive Chaos lists usually need to be quicker? bikes, rhinos, helldrakes, etc.?

Mmmm I read 1k sons, but take more punishment and most useful mark makes me think you are talking about Plague marines.

You can either go with a good fast moving army with bikes/spawns and cult troops to hold objectives or play gunline with oblies/havocs, both work pretty well so you are free to get a good army that fits your playstile with chaos.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Honestly, I wouldn't recommend Chaos unless you already own the models or really like using 2 Heldrakes in every game.

CSM have really poor internal balance, meaning that you have a handful of viable choices surrounded by a lot of crap. Pretty much every tournament CSM army looks the same as a result. 2 Heldrakes, a flex 3rd Fast choice (usually Spawn), Plague/Noise Marines and Cultists in Troops, Lord to unlock said Plague/Noise marines, no Elites, Maulerfiends/Oblits/Havocs to taste and Necron allies in Scythes for mobile scoring. Beyond being mind-numbingly boring to play the same game every time, the CSM list is fairly predictable as everybody has seen it before and knows how to beat it.

Top that off with the asinine forced challenge mechanic and the army just isn't enjoyable to play with or against.

If you still want to use them, just take the above list and go nuts.

the first codex in 6th i perhaps the worst. Some strong choices but the book in general is awful. Wait till 7th I guess.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Honestly, I wouldn't recommend Chaos unless you already own the models or really like using 2 Heldrakes in every game.

CSM have really poor internal balance, meaning that you have a handful of viable choices surrounded by a lot of crap. Pretty much every tournament CSM army looks the same as a result. 2 Heldrakes, a flex 3rd Fast choice (usually Spawn), Plague/Noise Marines and Cultists in Troops, Lord to unlock said Plague/Noise marines, no Elites, Maulerfiends/Oblits/Havocs to taste and Necron allies in Scythes for mobile scoring. Beyond being mind-numbingly boring to play the same game every time, the CSM list is fairly predictable as everybody has seen it before and knows how to beat it.

Top that off with the asinine forced challenge mechanic and the army just isn't enjoyable to play with or against.

If you still want to use them, just take the above list and go nuts.

This is just wrong.

The idea that you have to take one particular list is contrary to the point you make at the end of the second paragraph!

If every CSM player takes the same stupid list, of course it will be boring, and of course people will learn to beat it. The top tiers of tournaments are not homogenous. People with dark horse, creative, synergistic lists often do very well. Finding a way to hit an opponent in a way he's never been hit before wins games.

There are a number of other ways to play the book, with or without allies.

And when someone scoffs at you because you don't run a net list with 2 helldrakes and squads of plague marines with a nurgle biker lord and retinue, smile politely and table them.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

Da Skyman wrote:
Initially I was looking into the 1000 sons, just for their ability to take so much punishment. The Mark also seems to have the most useful special rule in general.
But then I'd be running a very slow army. Do competitive Chaos lists usually need to be quicker? bikes, rhinos, helldrakes, etc.?

Mmmm I read 1k sons, but take more punishment and most useful mark makes me think you are talking about Plague marines.

You can either go with a good fast moving army with bikes/spawns and cult troops to hold objectives or play gunline with oblies/havocs, both work pretty well so you are free to get a good army that fits your playstile with chaos.

I was thinking that a 4+ invulnerable save would be better than a 5+ FNP, even with the toughness difference. Plus they get a sorceror that can cast all kinds of fun stuff.
I think that that is mainly because my area has alot of AP3/AP2 (plasma from Tau and Guard)

Really, I was looking into the possibility of a TAC pure Chaos list (I don't like running allies if I can help it). Bikers sounds good, since I don't see many fast units in the book worth taking, and there isn't alot of anti-tank outside of powerfists and meltaguns

I like playing
Nurgle Lord
Plague marines
Cultists
Bikes
Vindicator
Demon Allies.

Chaos is a perfectly fine codex. It's pretty apparent that GW is slowly overhauling the game to get it to a level of balance that hasn't been seem before. Sure a few of the new units are strong. Then some are really strong lists paired with the right allies or other units. That's called synergy. If you're taking chaos in 6th and comparing it to necron flyer spam or ig vet and vendetta spam then you're missing the pint of 6th.

Plenty of useable units in the codex. Lots of variety and choices in almost every foc slot.

Its a neat codex with alot of viability, if your just starting the army, dont be looking for competitive builds, start with what you like. i do see multiple builds actually doing good, but sadly alot do use triple helldrake.

Youll find alot of people do theme armies, i ran a nurgle one myself at first, but then i got into running an undivided list using Huron, its so fun infiltrating up to D3 units.

As for 1k sons, tad bit pricey but will eat marines up. I have always had a sweet spot for the 1k sons and tzeench. My daemon prince was a tzeench with the black mace and wing, very fun cc unit.

Anyways, play around with the army first, dont build them most competitive cookie cutter army out there. If you wanted to be unoriginal you would have picked necrons and grey knight, The CSM codex has its pit falls but it also has alot of variety and options that give alot to work around the few pit falls.

Oh finally the only unit id really avoid is the mutilators, they are the only usless unit in the codex i feel. Too expensive and too restrictive in terms of usage.

Da Skyman wrote:
I was thinking that a 4+ invulnerable save would be better than a 5+ FNP, even with the toughness difference. Plus they get a sorceror that can cast all kinds of fun stuff.
I think that that is mainly because my area has alot of AP3/AP2 (plasma from Tau and Guard)

Really, I was looking into the possibility of a TAC pure Chaos list (I don't like running allies if I can help it). Bikers sounds good, since I don't see many fast units in the book worth taking, and there isn't alot of anti-tank outside of powerfists and meltaguns

FnP is generally better than an Invulnerable save because it stacks with your armour or cover, and you can still take it against things that ignore your armour anyway. An invulnerable save by contrast would be taken instead of either Cover or Armour. This is what makes FnP so good, it layers with your other saves and you almost always get to roll it- as opposed to a 4+ invulnerable save- which while awesome, doesn't help you against ap4+.

The Chaos book isn't as bad as some people make it out to be, I play without any Heldrakes, and I still manage to win more than I lose- although its usually a pretty narrow affair. They are probably the best unit in the game right now, but in large part their role can be patched with Blast Masters or Doom Sirens and good generalship.

I would recommend picking a god you like- and building to that theme. It makes your army look unified on the table, which is nice. The only exception is Mark of Nurgle almost needs to go on Obliterators- toughness 5 means they don't get instant killed by Las Cannons and Meltas, which is huge.

Wyrdeone wrote:
This is just wrong.

The idea that you have to take one particular list is contrary to the point you make at the end of the second paragraph!

If every CSM player takes the same stupid list, of course it will be boring, and of course people will learn to beat it. The top tiers of tournaments are not homogenous. People with dark horse, creative, synergistic lists often do very well. Finding a way to hit an opponent in a way he's never been hit before wins games.

There are a number of other ways to play the book, with or without allies.

And when someone scoffs at you because you don't run a net list with 2 helldrakes and squads of plague marines with a nurgle biker lord and retinue, smile politely and table them.

Reality disagrees. Check out various big events or even your locak scene and you'll see nothing but a deluge of Heldrakes. Quick example, Railhead Rumble was awash with CSM all running virtually identical armies. Locally, I played against CSM in 3 out of 3 games, all running Heldrakes.

Good players can do well with subpar units, but they'd do better with that pair of Heldrakes. Ultimately that's down to player preference for using a weak list for an extra challenge of funsies. You don't "surprise" good players, that's part of why they're good. You don't see net lists at the top levels because knowing your list and being comfortable with it is more important than what Dakkas says is the bestest list evar. Unless you play CSM, then you are shackled to those damn Heldrakes that prop up your entire crappy Codex.

I should clarify that I'm only speaking with regard to high level competitive play, which is what the OP was asking for. In casual play you can go nuts with Mutilators and Warp Talons all day. Of course, I hate the CSM book for its lack of character more than its godawful internal balance. Go spiky marines with dinobot friends!

@ Chumbalaya It's funny you had that experience at the railhead as I was expecting more heldrakes than there were. Obviously hitting 3 CSM players was a bit unlucky on your part (i played the same Screamer Flamer spam list twice with my bikes, ouch), but there were way many loyalist marines plus necrons at the rumble.

To OP, the general consensus is the most efficiant list is for CSM involves 2+ heldrakes (because they are arguably the best unit in the game point for point), then either cultist, zombies, or cult troops of noise marines or plague marines as troops. Heavy to tast with preference for oblits with MoN, havocs, or maulerfeinds. Spawn or biker if a fast spot is still open.

There's a huge benefit to playing contrarian lists though - if everyone is geared to defeat A, bringing B isn't a bad idea, even if B isn't the most objectively efficient.

If everyone is geared to take down helldrakes, with massed skyfire and FMC and transport-crackers like S7/8 48" guns, they're going to soak their neckbeards in tears when you show up with a 2+ foot list or DSing allied daemons or spawn tide or something equally off-kilter.

The point I was trying to make is that if your opponent has designed his army to beat four or five net lists, and he's a decent player, bringing a net list isn't a great idea. Better to understand what tools are going to be brought to bear against you, and bring units that nullify or ignore those tools.

Outflanking FNP noise marines with doomsiren(s), driven by lord(s) with brand can fill the role of the helldrake and many other roles, and they will piss themselves laughing when you point your autocannons at them.

Anyway, it's a moot point, since new tau should re-shuffle the meta and encourage people to look at the other units in the CSM codex.

I would ignore the two negative nancies in this thread. I think they may have a bad case of "the codex didn't have what I wanted." The Heldrake catches a lot of hate because its a really good unit. Just like Nightscythes, Annihilation Barges, and Vendettas.

Like Wyrdeon said, wait for more and more new codexes to drop. As everything gets put into line for 6th you'll see more units in the chaos codex come out and shine. Take Noise Marines for example, you heard nothing about them the first few months they released, it was all Nurgle lists. After an FAQ they're everywhere.

Da Skyman wrote:


I was thinking that a 4+ invulnerable save would be better than a 5+ FNP, even with the toughness difference. Plus they get a sorceror that can cast all kinds of fun stuff.
I think that that is mainly because my area has alot of AP3/AP2 (plasma from Tau and Guard)

Really, I was looking into the possibility of a TAC pure Chaos list (I don't like running allies if I can help it). Bikers sounds good, since I don't see many fast units in the book worth taking, and there isn't alot of anti-tank outside of powerfists and meltaguns

No one pointed this out, but do you play fantasy by chance? Invul saves in war40k are not ward saves. Your model has three saves - armor, invul, and cover. Pick the best available. FNP functions are 40ks ward save and is why people are pushing you towards nurgle. 4+ invul dies just as easily as -- invul vs bolters.

I don't play fantasy, I couldn't quite bring myself to take the plunge. So much to learn!
The invul was looking more attractive to me because space marines are very common in my area so there is a ton of plasma in the local meta. I thought that a 4+ invul would be better than a 5+ FNP when no armor saves would be allowed anyways. I hadn't considered cover though, and even without it's probably better to go nurgle just for the smallfire weapons.

Bikes seem to keep popping up and that sounds like a unique way to go. I don't have a SM codex with me, are they pretty much the same points cost?
Bikers with the mark of Nurgle sounds like fun and they could take Meltaweaponry for anti-tank since it seems like the Chaos Dex doesn't have much of an anti-tank base outside of Havocs.

Is it ever worth it to take regular csm as troops or should it pretty much always be either unlocked elites or cultists?
Also, are there any special characters to stay away from? i know every model has its uses, but some are just not really all that great for a TAC list since they have specific uses.

Well, we have a player here who fields 3 Helldrakes, 3 Maulerfiends, and a Lord on a juggernaut, and he does quite well with his build.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, we have a player here who fields 3 Helldrakes, 3 Maulerfiends, and a Lord on a juggernaut, and he does quite well with his build.

That list is what nightmares are made from. I would not want to face that for even a moment. Maybe with 2 squads of misslesides and drones and a skyray.

I prefer a more "fun" list with my marines. I tend to avoid marks, on my units and get more units out of it.

my usual 1500 pt list runs two large units of cultists with a dark apostle backing them up (tarpits)

couple units of CSM in rhinos with either meltas or plasmas

defiler thrown in just for kicks

and a huge unit of khorne bikers with a lord w/ABF
I have a lot of fun with this list, so do my opponents, win/lose somewhere around 50%

There is a difference between all the other units being bad and Heldrakes just being ridiculously good. That would mean poor internal balance - but it does not mean a list constructed without them is weak.

i play with World eaters and i just have fun with it. If you have fun while losing the other players hate that. an khorne wins reguardless

How would these suggestions stack up against the new eldar and tau? I am expecting to see more of both of those armies show up in the coming months.
Broadsides look like they might be difficult to deal with and they can put out alot of S7 shots, plus they are the magical 2+ that keeps them safer from Helldrakes. Since the Tau have so much S7 is it better to just foot slog it instead of using Rhinos and use the extra points to put more bodies in the squads?
I am not familiar with the new Eldar at all, so I have no idea what looks scary there.

Cultist spam, is always funny.

If you're looking to be competitive these are your core units. Plague marines, heldrakes, obliterators, and cultists. Make sure to either take a nurgle lord or typhus to make those plague marines troops

I dont like the massive reliance on multiples of a 75 dollar model. It keeps me from getting into them.