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Well, without beating around the bush, there are several (possibly insurmountable?) things that will keep a RBG KS from achieving the success of something like Raging Heroes.

Without going on a rant, I'll list some of the issues, as I see them.

* Tre's Kickstarter-rep has been badly hurt by the way the first two went.

* Starting a third before some people have their items from #1 just guarantees that all but the biggest RBG diehards from that group won't be pledging. People still waiting on stuff would also be amongst the larger pledgers from KS1.

* Scale compatability. While some people like RiTides are happy to make an army of RBG gobboes, he's in the minority. I have an O&G army mostly made up of old-school Kev Adams metals. RBG orcs and (especially) goblins and wolves don't fit my army, so they're not suitable to add. People with newer GW O&G figures would find the differences even more glaring.

* Style compatability - The new orcs are great sculpts, but they are reinventing the wheel. They won't fit any of my WH/40k forces even in a broad sense. They're also quite different to the Pig-faced orcs of old D&D and don't fit the LotR look either. Hence my posts about scale - I'm literally trying to think of some way I could use them (and what I could use them for). The best I've come up with so far has been as Half-Trolls for WotR/SBG.

* Due to size and style compatability issues, the RBG range in general works well as roleplaying models, but roleplayers (even GMs who have a bucket of monsters) tend to have far fewer figures than Wargamers.

* Essentially through chance, Tre's dwarves, elves and halflings work great for Lord of the Rings (WotR/SBG) proxies. I'm just thinking of this now, but is the KS being pimped in the LotR subforum here? Over at The One Ring? It's one of the few rulesets with a larger following that fits (large chunks of) Tre's range perfectly. It's the reason I keep asking for scale pics of those Wraith Knights, because, you know, I'm not willing to buy them without knowing if they will work for what I want them for.

* Tre' sculpts for Tre'. Not you nor I. If we also like what Tre' likes, then we buy. If not, we don't. While I'm sure that the Raging Heroes crew enjoy the female form, they're obviously aiming their stuff at the rather large cheesecake-loving demographic. So did Bombshell Babes (with very few models) and Kingdom Death. I'm not being a beret-wearing hipster here or anything, but Tre's models are very much not aimed at the masses, being smaller-scaled rather generic fantasy in small numbers. Raging Heroes aren't Tre's competition, nor GW or even Mantic. Reaper and Bones are his competition. If you sculpt for a niche of a niche, expect sales (and KS backing) in line with that.

* Related to the last point and several others - Tre's figures are never going to compete with figures scaled and aimed at the Warhammer/40k demographic. it's a basic fact in our niche hobby. If you sell Warhammer-compatible miniatures, you'll sell more models. That's how Mantic started and despite their KS-derived products/IP, it's still no doubt their main market (note things like the Ogres recently being made more WFB-competitive in price). It's the raison d'etre and lifeblood of all our favourite Polish resin-model producing companies, along with places like Anvil and even what I believe got Dreamforge off the ground (look for mentions of "warhound titan" in the DFG threads!).

* For entirely legitimate reasons, Tre' as said that he can't afford to give "better deals" or freebies in the KS. His Frothers posts pretty much reflect his opinions on Kickstarter discounts and freebies in a not so subtle manner. The fact is though, that the big miniatures KS base a lot of their success on the "pile o loot" theme to draw in lots of people who would otherwise not have bought in. Without the piles of extras and BOGOF and discounts to draw in people who are on the fence, Tre' gets by much more on goodwill from his existing customers, and this leads us right back to my first two points...


So with all of this in mind, there really should be no expectation of this hitting $100k. It's already a solid success at $21k based on the above points, in my opinion. if it gets to $30k or beyond, that should really be a cause for celebration, if you soberly take into account all of the points above.

By and large I completely agree with your points Azazel. Definitely, 30K would be respectable for as you put it, a niche within a niche. I am a definite RBG "fan". I love the models a lot more than anything else currently on the market, but I am definitely alone of my RL wargaming buddies in being willing to spend a lot on them. My wargaming friends are all Warmachine players and they have all admired the technical skill of the sculpting, but won't buy anything that isn't usable in their game. To me, this is supporting great art. To most people, it's got to have a gaming use before it's an acceptable purchase.

Like all fans, I guess I'm just sad that not everyone shares my enthusiasm. It would probably be a bit much for one person to cope with if bajillions of people did love this stuff enough to throw lots of money at it.

I am also a fairly big fan of GW LOTR. When you start painting and modelling with stuff in a proper scale, it's hard to go back to the exaggerated proportions of PP or GW. Mantic got a lot of points from me in this regard until recently, and I am very disappointed by the abandonment of a true 28mm scale with their newer releases.

The previous KS must be infuriating for everyone who is still waiting. So unfortunate that things came out like this.

Yeah, I'll buy great figures for the sake of them being great, but I like to be able to essentially "fool myself" with some form of gaming justification in order to make myself buy them. (Hence the pile of Dwarves, elves and nordic-looking RBG figures I already have). The exception is bigger display-type models, but the RBG orcs aren't quite in that category for me.

I went in on KS1 essentially to support Tre, but there's quite a few figures in that pile I'm not sure what to do with as well. I still haven't QAed them properly, actually - though my wife and I have worn our t-shirts a few times. (Are the T-shirts an add-on this time?) This year I've cut my work hours and have a mortgage to pay for, so I have substantially less money to spend on stuff just because it looks shiny or because I want to support X, Y or Z, so I'm not in on this one yet and already have a pile of unpainted RBG stuff. Which makes finding uses for the models besides "something cool to paint" even more important...

I suspect there are a couple of reasons for the way he's handling the stretches

Firstly in response to what backers (& others) are saying/asking for

Second because this is his line of minis, for his game universe he'll be more dependant on inspiration to get the sculpting juices flowing.

Unlike a sculptor for hire who will make what they are asked for but simply produce a less good mini if they are uninspired, Tre would not want any less than perfection for HIS gameworld,

so If he's not inspired by a possibility when it comes time to pick the next stretch he'll switch to one he prefers (at the time)

All good points, and it's very important to be able to change tacks as needed, but it's also very important to keep in mind whatever is promised initially. Putting together a KS with promises of new Dwarves or whatever means that pure inspiration needs to be tempered with the expectations/obligations that you created.

Otherwise you end up with Avatars of War.

Update #9 mentions "A t-shirt design ( which I think is going to be an EPIC kind of awesome )." which I'm really looking forward to.

I agree RBG minis were not specifically made to be used in WHFB but I personally don't see the problem with size and style differences. My cool black orc regiment consists of these mean pig nosed guys, you like them too, right? And my squighoppers ran out of squigs and ride on wolves instead. Same for helsvakt in/as chaos warriors army. But maybe I'm just too tolerant, I actually don't mind when people proxy with empty bases.

Well, I don't mind what other people do, but I have a personal aesthetic consistency that I like to keep. Do you mean these orcs for your black orcs? I like them, but I don't have any. Aren't they just being sculpted for the first time now? I use newer, larger Nelson models for my Black Orcs. Or would, if I had them painted.

Tre should develop two types of fantasy figures. One heroic scale and one true-scale. Best of both worlds! Tre could still go ahead with his own vision for his own RBG world while he could also make a little larger figures.

 Azazelx wrote:
Well, I don't mind what other people do, but I have a personal aesthetic consistency that I like to keep. Do you mean these orcs for your black orcs? I like them, but I don't have any. Aren't they just being sculpted for the first time now? I use newer, larger Nelson models for my Black Orcs. Or would, if I had them painted.

I would use them as black orcs if I had an O&G army. Of course I don't have them yet, those were just the words I would use if I had to introduce them to someone if I had an O&G army. English is not my first language so sorry for the misunderstanding.

There is a lot of truth in the speculation being passed in here. I guess my goal of being as close with you guys as possible has worked out. And please Da Boss don;t think of me as anything other than Tre'. I am just a fan of fantasy table top gaming who happens to have found a way to make a living at it.

As for why I do what I do the way I do. It is true that i do sculpt for my own personal preference first, BUT I do try to keep in mind what people WANT from me as well. I DISPISE heroic proportions on minis. Anytime I have ever tried to sculpt that way I feel like I am sculpting bobble heads.

I accept that due to my personal preferences I will probably never attain the kind of success that certain other outfits do, but at the end of the day I am PROUD of what I do whether it is successful or not, and ( I hope at least ) 20 years in the future people will look back on what I am doing now and respect what I was trying to achieve. Money is great but, at the risk of being pretentious, Respect as an artist is worth more to me in the long run.

As long as I am able to afford to continue doing what I do and not have to live like a pauper ( one day Oh please please! ) and my work can continue to fascinate and inspire I will be happy and I will hold my head up.

Teh original reason I chose the style that I have developed is really just a misunderstanding of scale and how people judge quality. The first set of figures I produced everyone said was too big ( ironically they were heroic scale ! ) and I read everywhere people complaining about silly proportions and less than spectacular sculpting. I also read endless adulation for Tom Meier's work and Confrontation's aesthetics so I decided that I would produce a range of ( what I THOUGHT was ) " correctly " scaled 28 mm figures with finely sculpted details, dynamic posing, and true proportions. And hence the RBG style was born.

Then once that got going I refuse to abandon those whom have supported that effort by switching over to Heroic.








As to the KS......... I have speculated to no end ( beyond privacy ) about why certain campaign's are smashing successes and others are not. In Raging Heroes case....... well they certainly have aimed for the heart ( or is it the crotch ) of the GW audience. The designs are GREAT, the models ( they are NOT sculpts ) are very well made as well. They set up a FANTASTIC presentation. They really got it all right. I have a great deal of respect for that.

It is galling though that presentation equates to greater value than actual product.

My current KS on the other hand...... yeh I wish it were doing better but I really did not expect it to do much better than it is. But that is OK I will use the opportunity to repair my reputation as best as possible and then come back again with a more ambitious plan / project. The back catalogue was intended to help pay for in house casting set-up ( which it really does not look like that will happen now ) so I do not want to continue to devalue the product line any further than I already have.

If this one does not grow much more than it already has that is OK with me. It just means I can repair my rep faster and easier.

As for the way I have handled stretch goals...... Well it did not seem to me that people were nearly as excited about the Dvergr as they were the ORcs. I really expected a MUCH bigger bump from the Njorn, but apparently I misjudged that as well. I am confident that we will manage to squeeze in the Orc Hero and the Goblin WolfRiders, and MAYBE if we are lucky the Orc Spear Throwers, but that will be about it. And that is OK as well! It just leaves more potential for the next run.

T-Shirt! I have the first one and everyone loves it.

Put up the design and that may pull me in
I love RBG sculpts, but find myself not wanting to paint 'evil' figs for whatever reason.

SO maybe I'll wait to see more of the Vikings and Dwarves before I jump in.

 tre manor wrote:
The back catalogue was intended to help pay for in house casting set-up ( which it really does not look like that will happen now ) so I do not want to continue to devalue the product line any further than I already have.

I thought the $5000 goal of KS3 was the in-house production? With over $21k are you not able to afford to get the casting materials?

If you need more I'd set that as a stretch goal (like say, need 30k to get in house production) and then offer a free KS-exclusive mini to backers who have pledged $100+ at the 30k stretch or something. Doesn't have to be big and expensive, it could be a smaller model in size like the Keeper, or even maybe a limited edition goblin, so it doesn't break the bank by giving it out to the higher pledgers (and even offer it as a $10 add-on or something, everyone loved limited edition minis). But only when the 30k goal is reached.

I have to echo a lot of the sentiment already expressed here. I have little to no possible use for anything that I'm pledging for here. However, the sculpts are beautiful and should be a joy to paint. They're going to sit in my cabinet and look good, and that's good enough for me.

The tipping point for me, though, was ironically how small this KS is. RBG is just one dude working as hard as he can and making incredible figures. When I back a project like this, I feel like I'm actually helping a small business build itself up. With something like Raging Heroes, I'm just another drop in a bucket.

grefven wrote:
Tre should develop two types of fantasy figures. One heroic scale and one true-scale. Best of both worlds! Tre could still go ahead with his own vision for his own RBG world while he could also make a little larger figures.

That's essentially cannabalizing his own market though, at double sculpting work, double mold cost and even mroe loss of production quantity based discounts on casting. .

Well the $5000.00 first goal will pay for the production of the Goblin footmen, the $10,000 goal pays for the Dvergr footies, the $13,000.00 and $16,000 paid for the Orc footies and the $20,000.00 for the Njorn ( see the diminishing margins? ) and now $25,000 will pay for the Orc hero. There just is nto enough profit in there to pay for the equipment or materials let alone the facility. Unless there is a sudden surge in the last couple of days I doubt I will make enough to justify the expense of buying the equipment and materials.

Kickstarter would not allow me to run a campaign that was solely based on funding the in house production so I had to create new product. That product requires investment, and then I need to survive while I am making the product and packing it and shipping it. I will probably make enough to buy the Spincaster, btu won;t be able to afford enough metal to make the purchase worthwhile let alone the furnace to melt the metal and the facility to house it all.

Little by little I suppose.

As well as having great art, Raging Heroes certainly got a large boost by having figures that are usable as substitutes in the most played wargame around (40K), yes RH are planning their own game, but in reality that's not what these minis are going to be used for

Just look at the amount of times scale was asked about in the dakka/reaper threads (compared to GW or reaper minis)...

If folk were just interested in cool minis (or using them by themselves in whatever game) the scale wouldn't be such an issue

Your stuff is so well done and detailed that while it's perfect for RPGs some may feel they are 'too good' to use as rank and file in TTGs, so pledgers will want a 'few' of something, but not 10s or 100s

(ah, the curse of perfection)

 tre manor wrote:


Kickstarter would not allow me to run a campaign that was solely based on funding the in house production so I had to create new product.

Ugh, really? And junk like the stupid Penny Arcade BS "we need 15 bucks to buy a tape recorder to do a podcast" flies?

I wonder if you set it up like that, with similar BS pledge rewards (for 20 bucks I'll follow you on twitter for a minute, for 50 bucks I'll eat a sandwich in your honor and for 100 bucks I promise I wont hate you) and used existing stock minis as stretch goals (at 5k all of the $20 pledge rewards get 2 free figures) etc.

Or maybe after this one funds and is fulfilled hold a pre-sale on your website with the same goal. It seems like casting in house would save you a lot. And if those trollforged molds can take metal, you could at least salvage something from that.

 fulop78 wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Well, I don't mind what other people do, but I have a personal aesthetic consistency that I like to keep. Do you mean these orcs for your black orcs? I like them, but I don't have any. Aren't they just being sculpted for the first time now? I use newer, larger Nelson models for my Black Orcs. Or would, if I had them painted.

I would use them as black orcs if I had an O&G army. Of course I don't have them yet, those were just the words I would use if I had to introduce them to someone if I had an O&G army. English is not my first language so sorry for the misunderstanding.

Ah, I see. Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant.

grefven wrote:
Tre should develop two types of fantasy figures. One heroic scale and one true-scale. Best of both worlds! Tre could still go ahead with his own vision for his own RBG world while he could also make a little larger figures.

Well, either that or figure out a range of creatures that are simply much larger (in truescale) than a normal human that just happen to line up approximately with another fantasy range's models. An example pulled out of the air, a race of giant ratmen that instead of being goblin-sized, happen to be 6-7' tall (just as feasable, if they're giant ratmen, right? Human-sized or slightly larger in RBG parlance works out to, say, the size of another brand's ratmen, except Tre's ratmen are finely detailed and sculpted, just like the ratmen Jes used to do. Substitute any appropriate fantasy trope (ie Kobolds/Lizardmen who aren't runty bastards) and you're golden. Tre's already going his own way with the orcs - there's no reason another fantasy trope race couldn't be different in size or scale - not everything is human sized.

Tre', funny that you mention Confrontation, as they make regular GW heroic scale look small.

On gearing up, you should definitely get the spincaster now if you can afford it. Little by little is how we buy our armies. Little by little is how I'm going through the house I just bought to make it my own. Little by little is how we save up for anything big that we buy. On further campaigns, I think Doug and Bossk Hogg have some pretty good ideas. Or be ...creative in what you put up on the KS page. Could some of the trollcast moulds work for metal? If yes, make the first stretch goal "retool the zombies to metal". Metal zombies would be a new RBG product. You'll still have to send people Zombies at a KS discount, but if the old mould work just happens to work for metal, then money previously "earmarked for tooling" can go to straight into setting up the home foundry...

 Azazelx wrote:
Yeah, I'll buy great figures for the sake of them being great, but I like to be able to essentially "fool myself" with some form of gaming justification in order to make myself buy them.

Ha, I'm very much the same I must admit! I buy minis for RPG purposes (and painting), but these days our pace is pretty much down to one night per month, so it not like we're flying through campaigns and new systems. Anyway, here are a few of my "justifications" when it comes to this KS:

Njorn - Conan RPG
Aenglish - Song of Ice and Fire RPG, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (as an alternative to the GW style)
Orcs, goblins, troll brothers, wraith knights - Not sure, but probably some old schoolish D&D version (Dungeon Crawl Classics, Adventurer Conquerer King). Or maybe WFRP.
Zombies - Very multipurpose really, but perhaps especially that Savage Worlds War of the Dead campaign I've been meaning to run for some time now...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tre manor wrote:
I really expected a MUCH bigger bump from the Njorn, but apparently I misjudged that as well.

I really don't think the lack of a bump from when you released the Njorn WIP's necessarily means that people aren't interested in them. The way your KS is set up with all the options from your back catalogue (which I'm personally thrilled about) I think just means that a lot of people have pledged for a number of ranks they feel comfortable with without finalizing their specific choices. At least I know that's what I've done; I went in for ten ranks on the first day, and I'm still juggling back and forth on what to get. Wasn't planning on the orcs, but after seeing the sculpts I'm thinking I want two ranks of those. And the Njorn I'm definitely getting too, even though I didn't bump my pledge when you showed their WIP's.

That's a very good point. If I decide I can afford to go in on this, I'll just be going for "what I can afford" and then filling in the gaps with whatever I like best

25 dollar t shirt available now:

That sure looks good (as did the one from the first KS)

If only I wore T-shirts

come on everybody else, order one so I don't feel guilty for passing

Wow, I love that T-shirt. His line artist is top notch!

I think I just backed a Kickstarter for a T-shirt...

Really I was looking for some excuse to pledge something. I just don't happen to have a burning need for any of the minis in this particular pledge. I'm sure I can fit the wraiths or nether beast thing in to a Confrontation scenario though.

The shirt is awesome however.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If only I wore T-shirts

come on everybody else, order one so I don't feel guilty for passing

This is me as well. It certainly looks very nice, but I can't justify getting it for the price of an additional rank and a solo.

I did just bump my pledge for a few more solos though, so I think I've been a good boy.

nice shirt, Tre...
an homage to Odin, and the Hammer of Thor in one image...
that's how you turn it up to 11...

best of luck with this campaign, brother...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
nice shirt, Tre...
an homage to Odin, and the Hammer of Thor in one image...

And the runes evidently mean "Ve Den Svaga", which is "Woe to the Weak" in Swedish.

As a Swede, I'm nodding my head in grim approval.

Does anyone have a pic of the Red Box Elves in comparison with Thunderbolt Mountain Elves? I'm wondering if they might be compatible.

I think the Thunderbolt Elves are a little taller but the proportions are pretty much identical otherwise, I don;t have any of Tom's Elves though so it is difficult to say with certainty. I have held them side by side though and that was my recollection of the comparison.

Cheers Jah! Good to " hear " from you

Glad yo uguys liek the shirt. It was made by Dave Needham who handles all ( well most ) of my artwork needs. GREAT artist!

 tre manor wrote:


I think the Thunderbolt Elves are a little taller but the proportions are pretty much identical otherwise, I don;t have any of Tom's Elves though so it is difficult to say with certainty. I have held them side by side though and that was my recollection of the comparison.

Okay cool I'm trying to figure out my rank selection... and hey did you figure out if you could let me get 9x goblin archers as a rank (instead of 6xspear 3xarchers, since i already own 36 of your spearmen, i just need archers and footmen)