Space Marines VS Imperial Guard

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**Vaktathi**

TheCustomLime wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:

Spoiler:

In a straight up fight between the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines, the Space Marines would be obliterated in a matter of seconds.

Most codex given estimates of the power is generally 1 Space Marine for every 10-12 Guardsmen.

There are one million Space Marines, equivalent to 10-12 million guardsmen.

Now, as cited in the rulebook and IG codex, there are *billions* of IG regiments, each consisting of thousands of guardsmen. Assuming the plural "billions" only means 2 billion, and they're all say an average size equal to that of the Cadian 8th, we get 16,000,000,000,000 (sixteen trillion guardsmen), or about 16,000,000 guardsmen per Space Marine. This means that the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes is worth 1/1,333,333.33 of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.

Now, assuming a million worlds with an *average* population equal to that of current Earth (some far more, some less, but on average equal to earth), That would be an extremely small mobilization rate, only sixteen million guardsmen per world, or one soldier per ~438 people, a lower mobilization rate than most modern democratic nations in peacetime in what is otherwise a highly militant theocracy. If we assume a more realistic mobilization rate for a militant theocracy that's constantly at war and lets multiply that by 5, that gives us 10 billion regiments and 80 million guardsmen per Space Marine. Assuming this ratio, that means the sum total of the Adeptus Astartes is equivalent to ~1/6.7 milllionth of the Imperial Guard's fighting strength.

Now, yes, Space Marines have their force multipliers, they have fast orbital insertions, they are genetically engineered super soldiers and whatnot, but they lack heavy/long range artillery short of orbital bombardment. they generally lack air superiority aircraft and AA capabilities, at least in quantity. The IG will be inextricably linked with the IN which is more than capable of overpowering SM fleets (especially as the IN is designed for fleet to fleet combat and SM fleets are designed for planetary assault and by codex law restricted from certain types of vessels). The IG also has its own force multipliers, they have *real* artillery and lots of it, lots of armor, and significantly more AA weapons and the IN has tons of aircraft.

In a straight up war between the IG and the Space Marines, it wouldn't stand a blink of a chance.

The entirety of the Space Marines have the military value of a few hours worth of Imperial Guard daily recruitment.

TL;DR Space Marines work because 40k is a Space Fantasy setting where they don't have to explain things because...magic. Space Marines stop working once you start looking at them from any realistic perspective.

Space Marines don't work as Games Workshop describes them. It's implied somewhat throughout their fluff that they could do the job of the Imperial Guard and better. Of course when applying logic that assertion falls apart like wet paper.

Now, what we the fans view them as makes more sense. I, for one, view them as an elite mobile strike force that attacks hard or important targets in support of the Imperial Guard.

Right, this makes complete sense.

Using them as line infantry is an incredible waste of their talents.

Again, this makes sense, but they are portrayed doing this time and time again also

Sure, the Guard could do their job but it would far far more costlier and more time taking. Resources and time are precious to the IoM so this is why the Astartes are needed. Not because they are an uber army but because they are good at doing jobs too delicate for the hammer of the emperor.

Again won't argue, though the big issue is numbers, in an empire of a million worlds and battlefronts across thousands of light years, the Space Marines would be mythically rare even with dozens or hundreds of chapters involved in a war, and as the fluff itself states, most wars never see a single space marine.

So, of course, a straight up fight like the OP suggested is the realm of the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines cannot be mobile at all. Now, if it was a contest to see who can kill whose leadership first then the Space marines would win certainly.

Well, sorta. The IG is extremely decentralized, and has multiple different levels of command and control, killing command elements won't necessarily stop the IG from functioning as there's often another sphere or level of command that can take over, and many command elements are extremely heavily fortified, not to mention extremely numerous relative to the SM's themselves, likely having enough ultra-senior commanders to outmatch the SM's for numbers alone

TL;DR: You're correct but Space Marines aren't a total waste. It's just that GW is bad at numbers.

Not at all saying they are a waste, only that, given their numbers and capabilities, they really shouldn't have anywhere near the effect they do if the actual numbers for a galactic war are calculated, they'd need to be increased several thousand fold, and otherwise the IG seems as it would be able to manage without them (and does in most wars), even if the cost is higher

**Psienesis**

Traffic Conez wrote:
I am very skeptical that you can fit over 1 billion people on 1 planet.......

I'd like to see Space Marines vs Death Korps of Kreig, hell all of the DDoK would make this massive bayonet charge towards the space marines that would consist of all guardsmen running towards the enemy

We currently fit almost 7 billion on this planet.

**volatileart**

They always have this strategy as well

**TheCustomLime**

You know, my favorite part of the Horus Heresy fluff is that they describe each legion as having 100,000 or so space marines as if that's supposed to be impressive. You have to wonder how only 2 million guys managed to conquer so many planets. Maybe because most of them were barbarians?

Also, if such an insignificantly small force such as the Space Marines have a noticable impact on the decline of the Imperium then the Imperium must not be in as much trouble as the fluff would let on.

**Abbi**

I once heard that the whole population of Earth (~ 7 billion) could fit on the Isle of Wight. Maybe not true anymore..
but apparently we would all fit into the Isle of Skye, or Texas with 1000 square feet for each of us.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111101114713AAFsog7

**Jihadin**

The winner would be whoever has the rounds and batteries to last throughout the fight

**vossyvo**

This would be a huge futuristic version of of Thermopylae.

I.e. It wouldn't be pretty but IG would win in the end.

**Vaktathi**

Jihadin wrote:
The winner would be whoever has the rounds and batteries to last throughout the fight

Probably not the Space Marines being outnumbered tens of millions to one

vossyvo wrote:
This would be a huge futuristic version of of Thermopylae.

I.e. It wouldn't be pretty but IG would win in the end.

Well, realistically, it wouldn't even be Thermopylae, take the 300 Spartan's down to 1 dude, then increase the Persian armies numbers to about the current population of the Netherlands (about 16 million, at a minimum), and the numerical disparity between the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines (as set out by, but not seemingly grasped by, GW) starts to get into the realm of realistic for this fight

**Bobthehero**

And then give the Persians a solid 100 000 catapults and you're set.

**Psienesis**

Though, again, the SM has access to Exterminatus-grade weapons (the aforementioned Life-Eater Virus bombs, as used during the first War of Armageddon) and the IG doesn't.

**Hunterindarkness**

To bring Those into play,however opens up fleet support. Which brings the IN in for the IG.

Also calling down Exterminatus on a planet the whole of the SM's are also on...is a bad idea.

**Vaktathi**

Psienesis wrote:
Though, again, the SM has access to Exterminatus-grade weapons (the aforementioned Life-Eater Virus bombs, as used during the first War of Armageddon) and the IG doesn't.

The IN does however, and is fundamentally part of the same organization and warmachine, you can't fight the IG without the IN, and the IN is similarly disproportionatly large relative to SM fleets as the IG is to Space Marine infantry, plus IN fleets are designed to fight ship to ship engagements where SM ships are designed for orbital insertion (an IN cruiser generally is better armored and notably more resilient than an SM strike cruiser for instance).

**uk_crow**

Hunterindarkness wrote:
To bring Those into play,however opens up fleet support. Which brings the IN in for the IG.

Also calling down Exterminatus on a planet the whole of the SM's are also on...is a bad idea.

I thought the IN were completely separate from IG? Following the HH, they were split up so that rebellions couldn't be started by one IG commander and take his army onto other planets? Anyway In a land battle I think IG would have clearly this one.

**Hunterindarkness**

The IG are counted as IG support and assigned based off need. Who do you think transports the IG?

**uk_crow**

Hunterindarkness wrote:
The IG are counted as IG support and assigned based off need. Who do you think transports the IG?

I realise that, but the IN are totally separate from the IG. Whereas SM have complete control over their starships.

**Vaktathi**

uk_crow wrote:
Hunterindarkness wrote:
To bring Those into play,however opens up fleet support. Which brings the IN in for the IG.

Also calling down Exterminatus on a planet the whole of the SM's are also on...is a bad idea.

I thought the IN were completely separate from IG? Following the HH, they were split up so that rebellions couldn't be started by one IG commander and take his army onto other planets? Anyway In a land battle I think IG would have clearly this one.

They're not completely separate, they still both fall under the Departmento Munitorum and Segmentum commands still control both, you just don't have operational or tactical shared commands, so battlefield commanders can't commandeer their own transport and vice versa.

They are not completely separate in the way SM's are from IG or the Admech is from the IG, the IN and IG fall under the same strategic command and the shared auspices of the Departmento Munitorum.

**uk_crow**

Vaktathi wrote:
uk_crow wrote:
Hunterindarkness wrote:
To bring Those into play,however opens up fleet support. Which brings the IN in for the IG.

Also calling down Exterminatus on a planet the whole of the SM's are also on...is a bad idea.

I thought the IN were completely separate from IG? Following the HH, they were split up so that rebellions couldn't be started by one IG commander and take his army onto other planets? Anyway In a land battle I think IG would have clearly this one.
They're not completely separate, they still both fall under the Departmento Munitorum and Segmentum commands still control both, you just don't have operational or tactical shared commands, so battlefield commanders can't commandeer their own transport and vice versa.

They are not completely separate in the way SM's are from IG or the Admech is from the IG, the IN and IG fall under the same strategic command and the shared auspices of the Departmento Munitorum.

Oh yeah i realised that, sorry I was thinking from a much smaller scale e.g. battlefield. I know they are both Departmento Munitorum. The point I was making was that compared to IG, SM have a lot more integrated fleet assets. I'm not denying any points nor disagreeing that the IG would completely steam-roll SM in a ground war...

**Psienesis**

They are, actually, entirely separate, by design. After the Heresy, and again after the Age of Apostasy, they didn't want such levels of force concentration in the hands of the relative few. This permits the Imperium to trap traitorous Guard units on a planet to then dispose of at their leisure.

However, the SM don't require fleet services (both denied by the terms of this debate) to enact Exterminatus. As we saw in the First War of Armageddon, the Life-Eater Virus can be deployed in a fairly standard bomb/missile munition, which can be transported by a Thunderhawk. The IG, however, do not have access to these weapons.

So again, it's a Pyrrhic victory, but as it would be a shot from the SM that ends the war (and the planet), it could be considered a victory for them.

**Vaktathi**

Psienesis wrote:
They are, actually, entirely separate, by design. After the Heresy, and again after the Age of Apostasy, they didn't want such levels of force concentration in the hands of the relative few. This permits the Imperium to trap traitorous Guard units on a planet to then dispose of at their leisure.

However, the SM don't require fleet services (both denied by the terms of this debate) to enact Exterminatus. As we saw in the First War of Armageddon, the Life-Eater Virus can be deployed in a fairly standard bomb/missile munition, which can be transported by a Thunderhawk. The IG, however, do not have access to these weapons.

So again, it's a Pyrrhic victory, but as it would be a shot from the SM that ends the war (and the planet), it could be considered a victory for them.

Again, the IN is under the same strategic command, both are part of the Departmento Munitorum, trying to say 'well the IN doesn't count' is silly because the IG doesn't fight without the IN and the same strategic command covers both (while there is no shared strategic command between say, the SM's and the AdMech or the Inquisition and the Custodes, etc) and is represented by a single High Lord on Terra.

They're separate enough that an IG regiment doesn't command its own star vessels, they don't have the same *operational* level command, but do share *strategic* command, the same Segmentum Command has authority over both.

On top of that, the IG definitely have their own weapons of mass destruction, nuclear missiles, vortex weapons, etc.

**uk_crow**

This will clear up there places in the hierarchy: the IG, IN, SM and the officio assasinorum are all separate.

EDIT: IG are controlled by the Departmento Munitorum. The Imperial navy is the Military arm of the Imperial Fleet. Both the Imperial Fleet and the Departmento Munitorum are part of the Adeptus Administratum.

**Evileyes**

The sheer amount of heresy and psykers would cause a warprift the size of the eye of terror. So daemons would win.

**TheCustomLime**

So it'd be the ending of 40k but sped up.

**Vaktathi**

uk_crow wrote:

This will clear up there places in the hierarchy: the IG, IN, SM and the officio assasinorum are all separate.

That diagram does not look correct, most nobably that the Adeptus Munitorum doesn't appear at all on there? The IG and IN are both subordinate under that, which is then subordinate to the Administratum. Also, the Navis Nobilite have never been described as subordinate to the IN outside of this diagram, rather they are independent households that serve with the IN, commercial fleets and Rogue Traders.

**uk_crow**

It's from the 6th edition rulebook pg139 according to lexicanum. Anyone able to verify this?

**Vaktathi**

I think you're right about it being from the 6E rulebook, my book is currently at home, but it does still appear to be missing things/have them in different places relative to where they have been described previously.

**Psienesis**

Again, the IN is under the same strategic command, both are part of the Departmento Munitorum, trying to say 'well the IN doesn't count' is silly because the IG doesn't fight without the IN and the same strategic command covers both (while there is no shared strategic command between say, the SM's and the AdMech or the Inquisition and the Custodes, etc) and is represented by a single High Lord on Terra.

Of course it's silly. This whole debate is silly. I said that 2 pages ago. However, if you read the OP, you'll note that neither the IG nor the SM are permitted to have fleet assets on hand. However, the IN is *not* part of the IG in the same way that a Battle Barge or a Strike Cruiser *is* part of a Chapter's assets. If it's silly that the IG doesn't fight without the IN, it's silly to assume that the SM are fighting without their Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers and other fleet assets... in which case the whole thing becomes nuts, because some Chapters command vast fleets and other ships, many of which outclass anything the IN has.

As I posted in my first response, if all of the IG (and just the IG) went to war with all of the SM and everything their Chapters could bring, the SM would win without putting boots on the ground, because the IG lacks space-faring vehicles, and the SM do not. They'd simply glass the planet, or hit it with a Cyclonic Torpedo, or use some other tool of Exterminatus, which the SM are more than capable of.

It doesn't matter that the IN and the IG are "allied" forces, they're entirely separate, with entirely separate command structures and support systems. The IG depend upon the IN to move them from planet to planet, warzone to warzone, as designed by the High Lords following the Heresy while the IN depend on the IG to save the planets from which their crews, the food their crews eat, the materials that repair their ships, and all of that sort of thing comes from.

The point of this debate is not "SM vs the Adeptus Administratum", it's specifically between SM and the IG. In a ground war, denied certain aspects of their wargear, the SM don't have a hope of defeating the IG, unless they can cause a massive volcano to erupt underneath the somehow, or have a rock from space fall on their heads.

**Farseer Faenyin**

I say the Space Marines win because the 'Guard' has no space assets (Imperial Navy has those) and no way to really deal with the multiple chapters of warships in orbit pounding them to oblivion.

**Vaktathi**

Psienesis wrote:

Of course it's silly. This whole debate is silly. I said that 2 pages ago. However, if you read the OP, you'll note that neither the IG nor the SM are permitted to have fleet assets on hand. However, the IN is *not* part of the IG in the same way that a Battle Barge or a Strike Cruiser *is* part of a Chapter's assets.

Right, but at the same time they're not wholly separate either in the way the SM's or AdMech are either.

If it's silly that the IG doesn't fight without the IN, it's silly to assume that the SM are fighting without their Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers and other fleet assets... in which case the whole thing becomes nuts, because some Chapters command vast fleets and other ships, many of which outclass anything the IN has.

I never said the SM fleets shouldn't count, however even the largest SM fleets at best maybe two dozen capital ships (most are composed of roughly only a dozen capital ships) aren't a match in direct battle for sector battlegroup (of which, much like IG regiments, the numbers of which are uncountable) consisting of of 75+ vessels. SM vessels likewise aren't typically designed for fleet to fleet combat but rather orbital landing operations and bombardment, Lance weapons for instance are very rare amongst SM fleets and completely absent on almost all Strike Cruiser and Battle Barge vessels. This is by design following the Horus Heresy.

As I posted in my first response, if all of the IG (and just the IG) went to war with all of the SM and everything their Chapters could bring, the SM would win without putting boots on the ground, because the IG lacks space-faring vehicles, and the SM do not. They'd simply glass the planet, or hit it with a Cyclonic Torpedo, or use some other tool of Exterminatus, which the SM are more than capable of.

which discounts any possibility of anti-orbital defenses and things like nuclear and vortex weapons which the IG do possess. The Citadel of Vraks for example, a minor depot world, was so well defended that no Space Marine chapter would attempt to take it.

It doesn't matter that the IN and the IG are "allied" forces, they're entirely separate, with entirely separate command structures and support systems.

Again, no they are not separate. Their command structures are joined at the strategic level through the Adeptus Munitorum which administers, supplies, and supports both.

The point of this debate is not "SM vs the Adeptus Administratum", it's specifically between SM and the IG

Which necessarily includes the IN, unless we only want to count SM's as well in SM forces and not the tens of thousands of Chapter Thralls which form pretty much the entirety of SM naval forces, as the marines on board are just that, marines, for boarding and landing operations, not crewmen or permanent ship officers typically.

Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I say the Space Marines win because the 'Guard' has no space assets (Imperial Navy has those) and no way to really deal with the multiple chapters of warships in orbit pounding them to oblivion.

Many worlds have extensive anti-orbital defense networks able to blast ships out of the sky. The very minor depot world of Vraks was so heavily fortified that when it rebelled no Space Marine chapter would take the job, it wasn't until the IG had landed in force and besieged the planet for years that the SM's showed up, landed far away from the combat zone, and advanced on the ground to attack a spaceport many miles from the primary battle lines.

**uk_crow**

Vaktathi wrote:

The point of this debate is not "SM vs the Adeptus Administratum", it's specifically between SM and the IG

Which necessarily includes the IN, unless we only want to count SM's as well in SM forces and not the tens of thousands of Chapter Thralls which form pretty much the entirety of SM naval forces, as the marines on board are just that, marines, for boarding and landing operations, not crewmen or permanent ship officers typically.

No it doesn't. The IG don't have a fleet like the SM do. SM fleet and ground forces are one and the same. They are all chapter assets. IG are merely transported to warzone in mass conveyors that belong to the IN, like a taxi service. SM own there strikes cruisers, battle barges and escorts.

The thread is titled 'Space Marines VS Imperial Guard' Not Space Marines VS The Adeptus Administratum.

The OP has also said 'no space cruisers'.

**Psienesis**

The OP states that the SM don't get their fleets, and the IG doesn't get the Navy:

OP wrote:
This huge war would be limited to the IG only using actual IG units, with no support from the navy, except for valkyries and vendettas. They would also have the support of all the tank, heavy weapon, and infantry regiments known. So basically, the guard would get everything in the IG codex, on a scale to match how many of them there are.

The Space Marines would get each member from every known loyalist chapter, including the uncounted 10,000+ each Black Templars and Space Wolves, they would also get all blood angels allies and Legion of the Damned support. The SM would get terminators, all their ground tanks, and thunderhawks, stormravens, and all other SM aircraft.

Emphasis mine.

I never said the SM fleets shouldn't count, however even the largest SM fleets at best maybe two dozen capital ships (most are composed of roughly only a dozen capital ships) aren't a match in direct battle for sector battlegroup (of which, much like IG regiments, the numbers of which are uncountable) consisting of of 75+ vessels. SM vessels likewise aren't typically designed for fleet to fleet combat but rather orbital landing operations and bombardment, Lance weapons for instance are very rare amongst SM fleets and completely absent on almost all Strike Cruiser and Battle Barge vessels. This is by design following the Horus Heresy.

The Space Wolves would beg to differ, having defeated an entire Inquisitorial battlefleet themselves. The Black Templars, of course, field several fleets, containing at least 9 Strike Cruisers or Battle Barges.

The Battle-Barge, probably the most iconic of a Space Marine's naval asset, is noted as being one of the most devastating ships the Imperium can field, being both heavily armed and armored, carrying bombardment cannons, lances and torpedoes.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_Barge#.UZ0yX0pIGVM

..also, this is important to note:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights_Strike_Cruiser#.UZ0zCUpIGVM

... the Space Marines utterly do not require the IN for anything.

Which necessarily includes the IN, unless we only want to count SM's as well in SM forces and not the tens of thousands of Chapter Thralls which form pretty much the entirety of SM naval forces, as the marines on board are just that, marines, for boarding and landing operations, not crewmen or permanent ship officers typically.

As someone told me when I first mentioned glassing the planet... read the OP.