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 Dakkamite wrote:
Why on earth would anyone charge a wall of Orks 90" through open space?! If you do, you should get gunned down. The furthest distance a 6"x 4" table can generate is 86". That's corner to corner. If you need something to get somewhere, deploy it centrally... now the furthest distance is 50"-54"... put your orks in wagons, and with combat speed+ full out, you're going to get there in 3 turns. With some planning during deployment, you can easily be assaulting on turn 3... and shoot the whole way there (Orks love snap firing). Excellent example on how not to ride a bike

But you're not going to get there in 3 turns. Starting round one you're going to lose multiple transports to shooting every round. Then your units are blown to pieces the turn after that. Any models who miraculously get into charging range then have just as much chance of failing to roll high enough to get into combat and just stand there getting shot at for overwatch and your opponents next shooting phase. Lets say hypothetically a model or two actually survives and makes it into close combat. Now its 2-3 versus 8-12. Even shooty units are going to win at those odds.

I've had more fun with Repentia and Penitent Engines in 6th than I ever had in 5th.

On the flipside, I've also had some good times with Scarabs and Wraiths and Obyron. If assault is dead, why does everyone complain so much about Mindshackle Scarabs?

well I just got my face handed to me by nothing more complicated than a good old fashioned swarm of assault Marines and mephiston, right up the middle.

No amount of defensive fire could save my units and they evaporated every round excpet the Riptides that got tied up in round 2 and never really got free again!

Blood Angels are the number one army I find are competing against me well. I dont really struggle for wins but when I do, it seems no coincidence to me that its blood angels causing me the problems. Plain old assaulty BA's.

Again, its a much shootier edition...but in my opinioon all its done is make the playing field more fair and force a few more shooty options into assault only forces./

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I've had more fun with Repentia and Penitent Engines in 6th than I ever had in 5th.

On the flipside, I've also had some good times with Scarabs and Wraiths and Obyron. If assault is dead, why does everyone complain so much about Mindshackle Scarabs?

Because the overlord with scarabs is very quickly in your face assaulting YOU, not the other way around.

 Jancoran wrote:
well I just got my face handed to me by nothing more complicated than a good old fashioned swarm of assault Marines and mephiston, right up the middle.

No amount of defensive fire could save my units and they evaporated every round excpet the Riptides that got tied up in round 2 and never really got free again!

Blood Angels are the number one army I find are competing against me well. I dont really struggle for wins but when I do, it seems no coincidence to me that its blood angels causing me the problems. Plain old assaulty BA's.

Again, its a much shootier edition...but in my opinioon all its done is make the playing field more fair and force a few more shooty options into assault only forces./

How did Mephiston even get that close to you?

maybe there was LoS blocking terrain and he was able to cast wings. And sometimes it isnt that hard to hide 1 model , if the rest of the BA army was in pods it could be rather ugly for a tau army.

Makumba wrote:
maybe there was LoS blocking terrain and he was able to cast wings. And sometimes it isnt that hard to hide 1 model , if the rest of the BA army was in pods it could be rather ugly for a tau army.

Actually I'm not agreeing with that at all.

All it takes is a 5 point upgrade to give your crisis suits/riptide/broadsides a free shot at deepstriking units with interception.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Makumba wrote:
maybe there was LoS blocking terrain and he was able to cast wings. And sometimes it isnt that hard to hide 1 model , if the rest of the BA army was in pods it could be rather ugly for a tau army.

Actually I'm not agreeing with that at all.

All it takes is a 5 point upgrade to give your crisis suits/riptide/broadsides a free shot at deepstriking units with interception.

It's not a free shot. It can't use marker drones, takes away the ability to fire the weapon next shooting phase, and if that firing unit is assaulted, no overwatch with that weapon either... I've often lured Tau players into wasting fire while intercepting so that other unit can handle them better in an assault or the like next turn.

Tau have some fun toys. But they cost points, points that could be used on increasing volume of fire. Where as chaos marines have all types of cover ignoring, armour bypassing weapons at both range and CC that will butcher Tau.

Assaulting isnt dead. Assaulting based armies are dead.



5th was still the edition of shooting. Look who the winners were there: DE, IG, GK, SW. 6th just made it even harder for the xeno assault armies with more penalties for terrain in assault, lower armor save and lower T vs overwatch, and challenging throwing a lot of xeno firepower under the bus. Assault armies now have to be tough to even stand a chance of getting into combat. Look at the state of Banshees, SS, hormigaunts, wyches, ect.

I see no reason why the comes-from-reserves assaults were removed. Outflank and infiltrate assaults punish those who are stupid but dont hurt those who place intelligently. A lot of assault based infiltrators or outflankers NEED that assault to stay competitive at all. Look at genestealers now.... its just kind of pathetic. Oh no, your unit got assaulted before it could shoot the unit that came at it. Guess what podded plasma does...

 zephoid wrote:
Assaulting isnt dead. Assaulting based armies are dead.



5th was still the edition of shooting. Look who the winners were there: DE, IG, GK, SW. 6th just made it even harder for the xeno assault armies with more penalties for terrain in assault, lower armor save and lower T vs overwatch, and challenging throwing a lot of xeno firepower under the bus. Assault armies now have to be tough to even stand a chance of getting into combat. Look at the state of Banshees, SS, hormigaunts, wyches, ect.

I see no reason why the comes-from-reserves assaults were removed. Outflank and infiltrate assaults punish those who are stupid but dont hurt those who place intelligently. A lot of assault based infiltrators or outflankers NEED that assault to stay competitive at all. Look at genestealers now.... its just kind of pathetic. Oh no, your unit got assaulted before it could shoot the unit that came at it. Guess what podded plasma does...

I heartily agree. Assaulting from outflank and assaulting when walking in on your own side should have been retained. +100

You really need to have units that ignore terrain and re-roll charges to be able to assault decently now. This is why beasts are so popular as they remove the crippling randomness GW introduced (for no reason) to make assaulting worse (5th ed was a shooting edition too fyi, but assault wasn't totally bad)

 Kirasu wrote:
You really need to have units that ignore terrain and re-roll charges to be able to assault decently now. This is why beasts are so popular as they remove the crippling randomness GW introduced (for no reason) to make assaulting worse (5th ed was a shooting edition too fyi, but assault wasn't totally bad)

What was that "crippling randomness" for 5th ed beasts? I thought beasts just moved 6" and charge 12" in 5th? Or did I read this wrong...?

I wasn't talking about 5th at all. Beasts remove the crippling randomness of 6th ed CC (IE the getting into combat part).

Only reference I made to 5th was that it was also a very shooting heavy game especially in the second half of its existence.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
well I just got my face handed to me by nothing more complicated than a good old fashioned swarm of assault Marines and mephiston, right up the middle.

No amount of defensive fire could save my units and they evaporated every round excpet the Riptides that got tied up in round 2 and never really got free again!

Blood Angels are the number one army I find are competing against me well. I dont really struggle for wins but when I do, it seems no coincidence to me that its blood angels causing me the problems. Plain old assaulty BA's.

Again, its a much shootier edition...but in my opinioon all its done is make the playing field more fair and force a few more shooty options into assault only forces./

How did Mephiston even get that close to you?

Twas the Relic Mission. He set dead center in the deployment zone, in cover, witha Priest next to him and took it like a champ. Unloaded an ARMY into him and couldn't kill him. But he wasn't the sole reason I lost. He SURE as hell helped.

Round 1 I moved the Pathfinder Devilfish's into position, then blocked him off very well, while my Kroot hounds snagged the objective. Hit Mephiston with every single unit I had in range, and it was a lot, without exception. Couldn't bring him down. Killing him is my only goal anyways. I hate Mephiston. His death is all the victory i require in a game against Blood Angels.

In this case i was denied any victory. Only my second loss with my new Tau, but every TOUGH game I have had has been a BA force and they are by no means a dead army. I disagree a lot withthe sentiment that assault is dead and that assault "based armies" (a ditinction that makes no difference, really) are dead.

People must adapt, buy some new toys and commit more to shooting, but "more" does not mean the army isn't still at its essence, assault based.

I like overwatch and I love the balance of assaults at the moment (I say this as a Spacewolf and Orks player).

What I hate is that it dosnt reward the clever player.

Heres the scenario ork boyz get shot at by dire avengers with blade storm most of the boyz die.

In my turn I assault the Dire Avengers from behind with storm boyz......but oh wait whats that it appears the Dire Avengers are in fact Spider Man and know the assualt is coming from behind and so have time to turn around (after emptying their clips into the boyz in front of them) and blast the surprise assault...WTF?

At least have a rule that if assaulted outside of a 45 degree front arc they have to reroll to hit or something

I think an ambush USR could fix some of the assaulting issues. Like if a unit with this special rule outflanks, deepstrikes, or infiltrates, they may assault on the turn they come in. The unit they're assaulting must pass an initiative test/ the players involved in the assault must roll a D6 each and if the assaulting player roll higher than the other player, he gets to assault without suffering from overwatch. Weapons with the interceptor special rule may overwatch regardless.

You can still play Assault Army; you just have use a lot of Tactics and Cover. I have been running an all Jump Blood Angles list. My only lost was because of the Random Assault Ranges [witch is the price we are paying for being able Pre-Measure]. It was not the failed 3” Assault or the Ork’s successful 11” Assault, but a combination of both.

You can do it, you just have to figure out to do it.

 Anpu42 wrote:
You can still play Assault Army; you just have use a lot of Tactics and Cover. I have been running an all Jump Blood Angles list. My only lost was because of the Random Assault Ranges [witch is the price we are paying for being able Pre-Measure]. It was not the failed 3” Assault or the Ork’s successful 11” Assault, but a combination of both.

You can do it, you just have to figure out to do it.

This. If you are on a map with terrain generated by the rules and of a standard 4'x6', assault units can run just fine (as can an assault heavy list).

EDIT 4'x6', not 4"x6"

I wouldn't say CC is dead. I do admit it has, to me at least, been nerfed to be sub-par in comparison to shooting. That being said, it is still useful on certain units. Storm Shields, Wraiths, etc are quite useful. Along with that, my friend and I (Nid player and Chaos Daemon) actually tend to be the dominant players in a group. So I wouldn't say it really needs a re-birth, as much as it needs to be brought up level to ranged. How to? I really don't know.

One question though, Anpu42? Can I rudely ask, how does random assault range the price for pre-measure? By that very notion, we could declare that shooting should have its range altered by d6 or 2d6 each time the unit tries to fire their weapons.

 StarTrotter wrote:
I wouldn't say CC is dead. I do admit it has, to me at least, been nerfed to be sub-par in comparison to shooting. That being said, it is still useful on certain units. Storm Shields, Wraiths, etc are quite useful. Along with that, my friend and I (Nid player and Chaos Daemon) actually tend to be the dominant players in a group. So I wouldn't say it really needs a re-birth, as much as it needs to be brought up level to ranged. How to? I really don't know.

One question though, Anpu42? Can I rudely ask, how does random assault range the price for pre-measure? By that very notion, we could declare that shooting should have its range altered by d6 or 2d6 each time the unit tries to fire their weapons.

The Random Charge is the Price we pay for Pre-Measuring has to do with balance. It may not be fair to everyone, but it is an attempt at balance.
Think about it, if I was playing Tau I would with Pre-Measuring always make sure that I was always exactly 13” from your assaulting units. So I could take one more turn of firing guarantied. Then when you advance, I back up until I was 13” away once more and if I set up right I can do this for 2-3 times before I am pushed back to the edge of the board.
I have “Played this Game” multiple times with games like BattleTech, Axis and Allies Miniatures and Battlefield: Evolution.
It slows down the game and makes it no fun for those who don’t “Play that Game”.

 Anpu42 wrote:
You can still play Assault Army; you just have use a lot of Tactics and Cover. I have been running an all Jump Blood Angles list. My only lost was because of the Random Assault Ranges [witch is the price we are paying for being able Pre-Measureb. It was not the failed 3” Assault or the Ork’s successful 11” Assault, but a combination of both.

You can do it, you just have to figure out to do it.

But what price do shooting units pay to be able to premeasure? Assault gets random charge distance but there is no random shooting distance. Night fighting in its fifth edition form was bad times for shooting with its random distance but now is much better, sure that unit on the other side of the board may get a great cover save turn one but at least you can shoot it.

EDIT: Shooting in this edition got nothing but buffs while close combat kept getting nerfed. Assault isn't dead but I fail to see any reason this edition to build a list based entirely around assault when you are fighting an uphill battle from the begining.

My orks this edition whenever I play an assault based list I struggle, when I play a shooting list I dominate, an Ork list entirely dedicated to shooting, think about that. My opponents have NFI what to do against an ork list that doesn't want to assault.

 Madcat87 wrote:
But what price do shooting units pay to be able to premeasure?

There's already enough randomness in BS/saves/etc making the outcome of shooting unpredictable. Assault, on the other hand, often has very little randomness (assault terminators always destroy fire warriors and the only variable is whether they charge successfully or not) so if you can measure at any time and have fixed charge distance you will often know exactly what is going to happen and have no real chance of failure.

And then of course there's the problem of making a random weapon range system that works well for everything from half-range melta pistols (3") to earthshaker cannons (240"). A random range system that had a proper impact on pistol range would be meaningless for the artillery (a modifier that sets the pistol to zero range would still give the artillery more range than a 6x4 table can fit), while a system that had any meaningful impact on the artillery would give a pistol anywhere from zero range to several times its standard range. You'd have to make a special-case rule for every single weapon, and that's a pain to keep track of. Assault, on the other hand, is simple: 2D6" normally, or 3D6" pick highest/lowest in certain situations.

Assault isn't dead but I fail to see any reason this edition to build a list based entirely around assault when you are fighting an uphill battle from the begining.

Good. Battles in a far-future wargame should involve guns, and if you bring nothing but swords to an artillery fight you should get tabled with no chance of victory.

Hmm... Assault has to deal with: buying assault transport(for marines, that's a huge point sink, right?), getting up the field under all the heavy fire from the other side(I'd expect anyone would try to shoot down a deadly assault unit ASAP), and then they'd still have to deal with WS/saves/etc just as shooting would.... So I really am failing to see how "shooting has enough randomness to make the outcome unpredictable".

For me, personally, I don't think assault is dead, I agree that it's the assault-heavy lists that are dead, and it's sad for me, as I enjoy the assault side more. Shooting in WH40k would work for me, if it's actually more interesting than measuring, declaring who is shooting who, and rolling dice.

It's more the point that assault units are so strong that they will, in general, overwhelm a target unit far better than a unit concentrated on shooting.

Some units are sneaking in that can butcher units with shooting, but they're definitely in the minority compared to units that can butcher others in assault. Assault has the added benefit of, after doing the butchering, if there's anyone left, you lock them in combat to generally finish them off in safety and get ready for another assault, protection most good shooting units don't have.

 -Loki- wrote:
It's more the point that assault units are so strong that they will, in general, overwhelm a target unit far better than a unit concentrated on shooting.

Some units are sneaking in that can butcher units with shooting, but they're definitely in the minority compared to units that can butcher others in assault. Assault has the added benefit of, after doing the butchering, if there's anyone left, you lock them in combat to generally finish them off in safety and get ready for another assault, protection most good shooting units don't have.

It's not like it's effortless to get up close though is my point.

Assault vehicles, as I've said in my last post, unless we're talking about orks or DE or whichever army that has the cheap assault/opened-top vehicles, don't come cheaply, so they've already weakened another aspect of their army by buying the necessary components to make their assault unit efficient.

Outflank, even with acute senses, aren't guaranteed to give you the board edge that you need, also reserve rolls. Given that this edition, rapid fire units can move and fire at max range, overwatch, random charge distance, etc...

What I really want to say is.. well, is there any need to nerf assault and buff shooting that hard? I understand wanting to give shooty armies a chance to deal with outflanking assault units*, but is there a need to literally make some units obsolete? Do nids players still run genestealers for their outflank assault??

*Which I really wished they hadn't, I enjoyed the fear of having outflank genestealers popping up behind and eating my army... I'm weird like that.

I'm another person categorically stating assault is not dead.

Assaulting a 10 man unit with rapid fire weapons results, on average, 3 guys needing to take saves due to overwatch... but that's only one side of it.

The other side is that when you have decided that 10 man unit needs to die you are going to do other things first. You should be shooting it, including lobbing grenades, before your assaulters get into the thick of it.

For example, say 5 DE wyches + venom wants to take out a group of tac marines . Well, the venom fires first: 12 poison shots: 1 or 2 dead marines. 1 wyche lobs a grenade, catches maybe 3 under the blast: maybe 1 more dead. 4 wyches shoot their pistols: 1 more died. That's between 3 and 4 dead marines. Let's say save rolls were bad on the marine side: 4 total dead.

But, if you are doing things right, another unit should be involved. So, 10 warriors also shoot at the marines: 3 more dead. More if they are inside a raider with splinter racks (reroll to hit + the raiders weapon). That leaves a grand total of 3 marines left standing before the wyches even decide to charge and certainly before taking any overwatch wounds.

See what I did there?

The marine unit was whittled down to almost nothing before assaulting them. With 3 models left, that leaves 6 rapid fire overwatch shots, which means, on average, none will pass. Yes, I used around 225 points of models on the DE side to hit around 170 points of marines. That's called overwhelming force and tactics.

I like 6th (and yes, I play DE): one unit that runs up to hit another over the head should be shot at, that's a little more realistic.

I'm really not sold on the idea that CC is dead, or even really nerfed all that much. I play BA, Tyranids and IG, and while yes I think my IG is my most effective army I believe that it is more about the tactics involved rather that any "OP" shooting rules. My Tyranids still make people look at me and tell me flat out "If you play this list against me again I will punch you in the junk." And it is mostly about the assaults from the swarmlord, winged tyrants, and waves of hormagaunts with toxin sacs. Sure i lose a few to the overwatch shots, and i can't outflank a hormagaunt squad into a 13-18 inch assault from the side of the board. Now I have to screen troops, and use cover to make it to my opponent. I still win through massive assaults. Death Company Marines with Jump Packs getting 5 attacks + Hammer of Wrath. CC isn't dead, the mindless set up at the deployment zone edge and move forward in a straight line to the opponent is dead. Spamming Massive Ork Boyz squads still gets boys across the field, and they still hammer the gun lines.They still win. So far the only time i've seen CC fail is when the tactics aren't there to support the assault style army.

Dark Eldar assault units are theoretically still viable, but only because venom spam is still viable. If you stick nine or ten venoms on the board full of warriors and blasterborn people will not shoot the one or two wych units you have. The second a well rounded raider based force hits the table however all bets are off as they have everything working against them. Blast radius damage improvements prevent clumping in what little terrain people commonly claim as "enough", hull points guarantee a wreck if looked at the wrong way (due to even bolters being able to glance), a raider exploding takes an entire ten man squad and mulches it into only 3 or 4, overwatch that hits kills wyches without pause, and after overwatch you have a longer charge to roll successfully than you did initially.

This is just to make it into assault. All a shooting unit has to do now is point and click.

Venom spam is shooty. What assault units exist within its confines are a gimmick.

Nightwolf829 wrote:
what little terrain people commonly claim as "enough"

So if the problem is people not following the rules why are you complaining about the rules instead of the people breaking them?

I'd say that Assault isn't dead, players being able to field all-assault armies without ever giving any real thought to the tactics required to deliver them into assault, are.

6ed has moved towards armies that are more balanced in their builds, you can go all shooty, or all assault, but your tactics need to compensate for your armies lack of dimension.