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Again, WRONG

You are told that start of turn psychic powers occur AT THE SAME TIME as moving on from reserves.

Simultaneous.

You are still at the start of the turn.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Start of turn IS start of movement phase. RAW. Total and utter RAW. The turn is split into three phases, and the start of the first phase IS the start of the turn.

You are told you can cast blessing on units that have moved on from reserves, as you are told these are simultaneous actions. If they are simultaneous you ARE still at the start of the turn (movement phase) and so can do so.

Please answer this point, and realise your error in assuming start of turn != start of movement phase

Where are you told you can cast blessing on units that have moved from reserve?, where is the exception that you can cast blessings after the movement phase is part way in?. Are you trying to say all movement is done at the same time so you can cast blessing whenever you want in movement phase?,

Show me where it says that psychic powers occur at the same time as moving ON from reserves.

You cant. Theres no where it says such a thing.

In the BRB, its clearly written that you roll all the reserve rolls, and they will arrive that turn. Then, further down, you proceed to put that unit onto the table, using the deep strike procedure.. This is at pg 124.

In the faq, as i said, it says that casting blessings and such happens at the same time as reserve ROLLS. Not at the same time that they move onto the table.

"Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occursimu ltaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
"

"ETC"

Please define that you are no longer at the start of the movement phase.

Page and paragraph. As you are told that reserve-type actions (rolls ETC) are all simultaneously with the start of the movement phase

Where is your allowance to deny casting on units that have just arrived, given the above FAQ tells you that it is at the start of the movement phase (== start of turn)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alyssis - you cannot cast a blessing FROM a psyker that has just arrived, as page 104 states. That is not in question

You CAN cast a blessing FROM a psyker that is already on the table ONTO a unit that has just arrived

At the start of the Psyker's movement phase is at the same time as the reserve rolls.. That is the start of the movement phase.

By your logic, you can move everything with all the units, except the psyker, and just before he moves, you can cast his blessing, and move him the last..
You would be able to move around, and then cast for reserve rolls, because everything happens at the same time.

Except that isnt my logic. Avoid slippery slope fallacies, and your argument may hold water.

did you notice the "etc" in the FAQ answer? You seem to be ignoring it, despite being pointed out to you more than once now.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occursimu ltaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
"

"ETC"

Please define that you are no longer at the start of the movement phase.

Page and paragraph. As you are told that reserve-type actions (rolls ETC) are all simultaneously with the start of the movement phase

Where is your allowance to deny casting on units that have just arrived, given the above FAQ tells you that it is at the start of the movement phase (== start of turn)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alyssis - you cannot cast a blessing FROM a psyker that has just arrived, as page 104 states. That is not in question

So you are assuming that ETC means reserve movement as well as reserve rolls?. Thought this was a permissive rule set an all.

Bringing reserves on is defined as movement para 5 and 6 arriving from reserves page 124.

Page 68 says blessings and maledicastions are start of movement phase.

You have moved, no longer start of movement phase.


You CAN cast a blessing FROM a psyker that is already on the table ONTO a unit that has just arrived

But it is your logic.. It isnt my logic.. and it isnt anyone elses that ive ever played with either..

If you want to assume that etc, when reading Reserve _rolls_ and outflanking _rolls_ means also moving onto the table, then you can do that.

As the guy above me says, bringing reserves on is defines as movement, at page 124. After bringing reserves onto the table, they have moved. You cannon then cast a blessing onto them, because you are no longer at the start of the movement phase.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

As you are told that reserve-type actions (rolls ETC) are all simultaneously with the start of the movement phase

Where is your allowance to deny casting on units that have just arrived, given the above FAQ tells you that it is at the start of the movement phase (== start of turn)

Citation needed.

You are told that reserve rolls and outflank rolls occur at the start of the turn, not moving on from reserves (which you are merely instructed to do before moving any other units). the etc is for other rolls that occur at the start of the movement phase, such as instinctive behaviour.

Outflank rolls are done when the unit moves onto the board. Ergo, Blessings and Maledictions ate cast at the same time.

Alyssis wrote:
But it is your logic.. It isnt my logic.. and it isnt anyone elses that ive ever played with either..

If you want to assume that etc, when reading Reserve _rolls_ and outflanking _rolls_ means also moving onto the table, then you can do that.

As the guy above me says, bringing reserves on is defines as movement, at page 124. After bringing reserves onto the table, they have moved. You cannon then cast a blessing onto them, because you are no longer at the start of the movement phase.

Outflanking ROLLS are made when you move the unit onto the table

Outflanking ROLLS are defined as start of movement phase

Movement onto the board from reserves is part of the start of turn. Ergo you can cast blessings onto a unit tht has just arrived, from a model that is already on the board.

So no, it is your logic. You made a logical fallacy in your argument.

Alyssis wrote:
But it is your logic.. It isnt my logic.. and it isnt anyone elses that ive ever played with either..

If you want to assume that etc, when reading Reserve _rolls_ and outflanking _rolls_ means also moving onto the table, then you can do that.

As the guy above me says, bringing reserves on is defines as movement, at page 124. After bringing reserves onto the table, they have moved. You cannon then cast a blessing onto them, because you are no longer at the start of the movement phase.

Um, there's an FAQ that says the opposite. Rules > personal opinion on logic

You can not possibly mean that you roll outflanking rolls WHEN you put them on the table.. You roll before you put them on.. And even in the outflanking rule in the brb, it says that you then go ahead and move them on as described for other reserves..

When you have moved anything at all onto the table, you are way passed the start of the movement phase.. And reserves, and outflanking units moving on the table before you move anything else on the table..

Either way, you guys play like you want to.. You can choose to read the faq and the rules as you want to, and deny what the book actually says..

Alyssis wrote:
You can not possibly mean that you roll outflanking rolls WHEN you put them on the table.. You roll before you put them on.. And even in the outflanking rule in the brb, it says that you then go ahead and move them on as described for other reserves..

When you have moved anything at all onto the table, you are way passed the start of the movement phase.. And reserves, and outflanking units moving on the table before you move anything else on the table..

Either way, you guys play like you want to.. You can choose to read the faq and the rules as you want to, and deny what the book actually says..

Let me put it this way. I'm playing Eldar. I have 2 squads of War Walkers Outflanking. I also have a Farseer on both long table edges. I roll for reserves on turn 2. Lo and behold I get a 3+ for both units. Then I roll to see which side the first unit comes in on. I get a 6. I choose the table edge and move the unit on. I then cast Guide on that unit. Per your reading of the rules either I cannot cast the power (which the FAQ says I can) or I can no longer bring the second squad of Walkers in from Reserves.

 Happyjew wrote:

Alyssis wrote:
You can not possibly mean that you roll outflanking rolls WHEN you put them on the table.. You roll before you put them on.. And even in the outflanking rule in the brb, it says that you then go ahead and move them on as described for other reserves..

When you have moved anything at all onto the table, you are way passed the start of the movement phase.. And reserves, and outflanking units moving on the table before you move anything else on the table..

Either way, you guys play like you want to.. You can choose to read the faq and the rules as you want to, and deny what the book actually says..

Let me put it this way. I'm playing Eldar. I have 2 squads of War Walkers Outflanking. I also have a Farseer on both long table edges. I roll for reserves on turn 2. Lo and behold I get a 3+ for both units. Then I roll to see which side the first unit comes in on. I get a 6. I choose the table edge and move the unit on. I then cast Guide on that unit. Per your reading of the rules either I cannot cast the power (which the FAQ says I can) or I can no longer bring the second squad of Walkers in from Reserves.

Is Eldar not classed as start of the turn for their psyhic powers, start of turn is not after war walkers have moved on from reserves.

Guide is a start of turn power, just like blessings and maledictions. You claim that as soon as you move a unit in from reserve you are past the start of the turn (which is synonymous to start of the movement phase) and therefore anything that happens then can no longer be done.

From a unit arriving from reserves? No, the rulebook expressly prohibits doing so. On a unit arriving from reserves? Yes, as it was clarified in the FAQ you have the option to use psychic powers after reserves.

Can someone please show the the faq that says this.. And dont show me the one already mentioned, that says nothing about that, only that you can cast blessings after reserve and outflanking rolls..

Moving something onto the table, is moving something onto the table.. You count the units as having moved.. which means they have moved,, you are no longer at the start of the turn, nor the movement phase..

and "etc", implying the rest of the reserve requirements. Your continued insistence on forgetting that is impressive.

The FAQ says Reserves are the start of the movement phase, and when two things are simultaneous the owning player chooses.

Alyssis - Permission is given to cast a Blessing before or after Outflank rolls, correct?
Outflank rolls are done when the unit moves on the table (you don't roll Outflank for all units arriving that turn at the same time).

I move unit on via Outflank. I have another unit that is outflanking that turn. I have not rolled to see which table edge the unit is coming from. Can I cast a blessing or Malediction at this time? Why or why not?

If I can cast a blessing, and the unit that just came on is in range why can I not target that unit with the blessing?

Nosferatu, and you continue to assume that etc means everything, and not equal rolls that takes place before the movement, as also mentioned earlier.

Happy, outflank rolls are done when a unit arrives from reserve. As in after you roll for reserves. And then you proceed to move them onto the table like you would from any reserves.. It says so in the rule..

"A unit that just came into range..." it has to have moved then.. how else do you explain it getting into range?

You guys can keep playing it like you want to, im done..

You are still missing the point of Happys post

You are told you can make ALL Outflank Rolls AND cast blessings. , in the order you choose

I choose to:

Roll for outflank, and move the unit on. Then cast a blessing
Then roll the next outflank roll, and move the unit on. You are told this is STILL simultaneous with the start of turn.

Yes or No? If no, provide some rules, for a change.

Examining what the books says (ignoring the FAQ for the time being), let's look at the timing of things:

Reserve rolls - Start of Turn
Blessings - Start of Movement Phase (equal to Start of Turn)
Outflank rolls - When an Outflanking unit arrives from reserves

Okay, so when does a unit "arrive"?

That is a little trickier as there are several different points a unit is described as "arriving" - after the reserve roll, at the start of turn 4, when actually moving onto the table, etc. Taken as a whole, and considering this entire process is under a single section titled "Arriving from reserves", the entire act of rolling for your reserve units and moving them onto the table is a single process known as "arriving from reserves". This process takes place at the start of the turn, and as outflanking rolls are part of this process they too are at the start of the turn.

Now can this process be interrupted by a voluntary action that also occurs at the start of turn? I don't think so, as you can choose the order in which to resolve start of turn actions, but in general you are not given permission to start one action before resolving another already underway (the are rules that specifically state you may do so for that particular rule and situation, but unless that permission is expressly given, you may not).

So since this process cannot be interrupted, you must carry out the entire process before moving onto another Start of Turn action.

Now, in the argument that moving the unit onto the table means that it is in the movement phase, therefore it is too late to do any Start of Turn actions after your units arrive from reserves, keep in mind that Start of Turn = Start of Movement Phase. So regardless, you are in the Movement Phase the instant you do any Start of Turn action. Start of Turn/Start of Movement phase essentially tells you "in the movement phase, do this before you do anything else"

TLDR - yes, you may have a psyker that started the turn on the table cast a blessing on a unit that arrived from reserves this turn, indeed pretty much anything that starts on the table that has a rule that is used at the "Start of Turn/Start of Movement Phase" may target a unit that arrived that turn....and we didn't even need the FAQ to tell us that.


You are now free to flame me and tell me how wrong I am...which is entirely possible

Nope, that is entirely correct, and is something that the other side seem to be missing.

They are equating bringing on reserves movement as being normal movement that you make later on in the phase. It isnt, and the FAQ points this out

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope, that is entirely correct, and is something that the other side seem to be missing.

They are equating bringing on reserves movement as being normal movement that you make later on in the phase. It isnt, and the FAQ points this out

I must have missed the exception for reserves movement not counting towards, well movement. If the ETC is what you are basing your arguement on then it is your opinion, logically or not it is still your opinion.

The FAQ mentions nothing of movement only reserve rolls, this you seem to be ignoring.

Moving on from reserves IS movement, and it counts as your move for the movement phase, but as I stated, it is simply done as part of the arriving from reserves action earlier in the movement phase.

If it was not movement, or did not happen in the movement phase, then once you started moving units as normal, the unit that arrived from reserves could move again as you are given permission to move in the movement phase, and there is no rule that I have found stating that you may not move after arriving from normal reserves (the one bit that mentions anything about restricting movement is referring to a unit that could not move all the way on to the table).

On the flip side of things, all of arriving from reserves is done in the movement phase - the roll, the move, everything. It's just at the beginning of it. And this entire process has to be done as a single, uninterrupted action for reasons I have stated above. You are still free to do other "start of the movement phase/start of turn" actions afterwards. All 'start of turn/start of movement phase actions are done in the movement phase itself, they are just done before normal actions.

You say it is a unbroken chain of events, is the FAQ not good enough to break this chain up?

As i've said earlier.. im not missing anything the faq points out.. You simply assume that ETC stands for whatever you want it to do..

Lets look at what the book and the faq actually tells us:

When things happen at the same time, you can choose which order things happen.

So, the start of the turn, and you choose your order of things. Can you then move reserves onto the table? No.. you have to roll for it first..
Can you choose outflanking? No, you first have to roll for reserves..

You can however roll for Reserves, and blessings as you choose.
If you choose to roll for reserves, the book tells you what to do:

At the start of your turn two, you must roll a d6 for each unit in reserves. At 3+, these units arrive this turn. - And note: It does not say the start of the turn, it simply says this turn.
As some units have the outflanking rule, lets look at what that says; When a unit with the outflanking special rule arrives from reserve, roll a d6; After explaining the sides, it simply says: Models move onto the table as described for other reserves.

We then move back to page 124, in the brb.
It then explains what you do when reserves arrive. After which you move your models normally.

The book tells you nothing else.. You do not roll for outflanking when you put them onto the table, you roll when they arrive from reserves.

I already know when im writing this, that you whont agree with me.. And as stubborn as i am, i proberbly whont change my mind either before a new faq comes out. This is because from my side, you have moved something onto the table. And yet you say that you are at the start of the movement phase still.. I simply will not play like that, when the wording of the rules are written as they are.. There is nowhere, part from the ETC in the faq that says that you can do this.. And the ETC goes after Reserve Rolls, and outflanking Rolls. It is more likely that it is there for other rolls that occur at the start of the phase.

Fact is: We can keep arguing, and we will keep going til either mods lock this thread, or a new faq comes out.
We will not come to an agreement before a new faq, simply because the rules are as they are. Your way of seeing the rules, and my way of seeing the rules simply is different. I will continue to play like i do, because thats how my group agrees that it is. You can continue to play as you want, and we can all be glad that we proberbly whont have to play against eachother in the nearest future..

Alyssis - again, read the actual rulebook, and the example given by Happy. It totally destroys your argument which is why you have yet to address it.

So answer this, or concede your position:

I have 2 outflanking units turn up on turn 4. I have a blessing / Eldar power'ed psyker next to them, on the board edge they turn up on.

As per the FAQ, i choose to roll AND, as REQUIRED in the outflank rules, move on unit A.

As per the FAQ, I then choose to use a blessing on that unit. This is still the start of the turn, as stated in the FAQ

As per the FAQ, i choose to roll AND, according to the rules for Outflank, immediately move the unit on. THis is still, according to the FAQ, the start of the turn

If you do not agree that this sequence is possible, then provide an argumment otherwise.

I wont agree with you, as you have failed to present a rulesbased argument that actually agrees with the rules. You are told that "arriving from reserve" is done at the start of the turn, and moving on from reserves, part of arriving, is therefore STILL at the start of the turn as it is part of this action.

Your group can houserule however they want. It remains purely a houserule, so it is good for your education to know what th erules actually say, in case you play in tournaments etc that use the real rules.

The faq doenst tell you that you can move units onto the table and then cast a blessing. It tells you that blessins occur at the same time as reserve rolls, and outflanking rolls.

You want me to answer something that ive done several times now.. well, go and read the book, and the rules, until you actually see what it says, and dont stop after the first lines..

You simply ignore all the rules in the book, an bases your entire ruling on three letters: ETC.

And obviously im the one not following the rules..

We are not houseruling anything. I refuse to play with houserules. If i do play in a tournament, i doubt that they to will base everything on three letters comming after reserve rolls, and outflanking rolls. The rules are clear.. your assumption isnt..