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I read in a bit of fluff in one of the codex's or something that in each Terminator Crux, there is a fragment of the sword the Emperor used to kill Horus. Due to the sheer number of terminators, both loyal and traitor, wouldn't the size of each fragment be microscopic, unless his sword was 5 stories high.

swagmasteryolo wrote:
I read in a bit of fluff in one of the codex's or something that in each Terminator Crux, there is a fragment of the sword the Emperor used to kill Horus. Due to the sheer number of terminators, both loyal and traitor, wouldn't the size of each fragment be microscopic, unless his sword was 5 stories high.

Well, it was originally a shard of his armor (might still be) and he could be 15+ feet tall (depending on the size of the primarchs) and may have more than one suit or armor. Likewise, traitor legion terminators wouldn't have any shards, and there are much fewer terminator sets coming in from loyalists die to a dwindling supply of the suits.

swagmasteryolo wrote:
I read in a bit of fluff in one of the codex's or something that in each Terminator Crux, there is a fragment of the sword the Emperor used to kill Horus. Due to the sheer number of terminators, both loyal and traitor, wouldn't the size of each fragment be microscopic, unless his sword was 5 stories high.

Yes they would have to be very very small, and according to the Deathwatch: Rites of Battle book, it's a piece of his armor.
The idea behind the Crux Terminatus is no different than the "relics" of modern Christianity, in which small pieces of the saint's bones are kept on display, and that by touching a holy image (say a medallion of that saint) to the relic, it passes on some of the holy power to it. So it could be a similar thing that original suits of terminator armor with the crux on it have "blessed" other cruces.

Also with the Crux Terminatus being a post heresy thing, Traitors wouldn't have them unless they went renegade after the fact. Though at that point, they would most likely desecrate or remove the Crux.

As with many things 40k the ORIGINAL write-up makes the most sense: It was Terminator Captain's only.

SerQuintus wrote:
As with many things 40k the ORIGINAL write-up makes the most sense: It was Terminator Captain's only.

yeah. when you think about it, there'd be about a minimum of 62,000 suits of termi armor with the shards in it. that's absurd

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

SerQuintus wrote:
As with many things 40k the ORIGINAL write-up makes the most sense: It was Terminator Captain's only.

yeah. when you think about it, there'd be about a minimum of 62,000 suits of termi armor with the shards in it. that's absurd

But we also have to take into account 1)This is 40k we're talking about, absurd should be it's middle name (i.e. Warhammer Absurd 40,000 the 6th, Esq) 2) The Crux Terminatus with fragments of the Emperor's armor is legend. So while we have 10 Terminator captains in the 1st company, times that by 1,000 Space Marine chapters that gives us a better number of 10,000. This means that the other 90 Terminators with the Crux Terminator on their suit means are made of stone and metal.

Edit: Another alternative would be going back to the "relic" idea. Take the 10,000 Crux Terminatus from Terminator Captains that have fragments of the Emperor's armor in them, and then split those up amongst the chapter. They still technically have fragments of the Emperor's armor, they're just smaller, but would probably just considered just as holy.


For completion and curiosity's sake, where did you get the minimum number of 62,000?

It's worth noting that a good number of SM chapters have little to no suits in their possession, with any suits they may possess handed down from their parent chapter.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

SerQuintus wrote:
As with many things 40k the ORIGINAL write-up makes the most sense: It was Terminator Captain's only.

yeah. when you think about it, there'd be about a minimum of 62,000 suits of termi armor with the shards in it. that's absurd

But we also have to take into account 1)This is 40k we're talking about, absurd should be it's middle name (i.e. Warhammer Absurd 40,000 the 6th, Esq) 2) The Crux Terminatus with fragments of the Emperor's armor is legend. So while we have 10 Terminator captains in the 1st company, times that by 1,000 Space Marine chapters that gives us a better number of 10,000. This means that the other 90 Terminators with the Crux Terminator on their suit means are made of stone and metal.

Edit: Another alternative would be going back to the "relic" idea. Take the 10,000 Crux Terminatus from Terminator Captains that have fragments of the Emperor's armor in them, and then split those up amongst the chapter. They still technically have fragments of the Emperor's armor, they're just smaller, but would probably just considered just as holy.


For completion and curiosity's sake, where did you get the minimum number of 62,000?

I was going by all terminator suits:
A well supplied chapter would have enough to outfit all their captains and their 1st company, so about 100-110 suits. These would be the earliest companies (first few foundings) while the less well-equipped would be able to have two full squads or 25 suits at most. I guesstimated the chapters would be about 50/50 split (to compensate for those inbetween) getting about 50-55,000 for well-equipped and 10,000-12,500 for those newer chapters, averaging to 62,500 suits
captains only 10k is more likely

Not every suit of Terminator Armor is equipped with a Crux Terminus. That's meant to be a badge of high honor for the Space Marine in said suit of TDA.

Lexicanum wrote:The Crux Terminatus is a stone medallion awarded to highly skilled and experienced Space Marine Veterans. All members of a Chapter trained in the use of Terminator Armour will have been first awarded the Crux Terminatus. These badges, set into the left shoulder plate of Terminator armour, are highly distinctive and usually fashioned from stone.

The bolded part is my emphasis. That is also why you don't see Terminator models without the Crux on their shoulder (outside of the Pre-Heresy/Heresy models)

Hmm, interesting, there's some variance to that in other sources, awarding it to Terminator-equipped Veterans.

 Alfndrate wrote:

The idea behind the Crux Terminatus is no different than the "relics" of modern Christianity, in which small pieces of the saint's bones are kept on display, and that by touching a holy image (say a medallion of that saint) to the relic,.

There is another option: some Saints got a lot of bones....

Plus, the Crux is most likely a badge most of the time and only a few are special. A Crux Terminatus was available to PA veterans in 3rd ed for example.

I'd say that they certainly could have 62k suits of armor with a 'shard' of the Emperor's own armor in it, as they don't define the size of that shard. It could be a monofiliment cover for the Crux sliced from the armor in such a way that could allow for a massive number to be created.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I'd say that they certainly could have 62k suits of armor with a 'shard' of the Emperor's own armor in it, as they don't define the size of that shard. It could be a monofiliment cover for the Crux sliced from the armor in such a way that could allow for a massive number to be created.

Yeah, I always thought it was just a single drop of molten metal added to the cauldron as the suits were beinging cast.

Insignium Astartes: "1st Company Veterans have been trained in the use of Terminator armour are entitled to wear the crux terminatus honour badge. Of course this great stone badge is fixed to the left shoulder armour of the actual Terminator suit. If the Marine is not fighting in a Terminator suit he will carry and display a small metal version of the crux. Supplementing this badge will various painted or stencilled crux on the Marine's armour. Collectively these markings are known as Terminator honours."

3rd edition rules allowed power armoured veterans to take a Terminator Honours, representing their Terminator training and allowing them to bear a facsimile of the Crux Terminatus, not to bear an actual one.

There have been over 1300 victoria crosses awarded, all of which stem from a small number of crimean cannon. These things are quite big and if you can get that number of medals from a few cannon, then 60, 000 odd small chunks of metal from a big suit of armour isn't too outlandish.

It says sliver of armor in the 5th SM codex, I remember reading it.

A sliver, can be a tiny little wee bit sliced off a shoulder guard or something, so i reckon you could get like 20,000 bits from one piece of armor, I doubt it is enough of a piece to be fluff breaking anyway!

I wonder what they consider a shard? Maybe it's poetic license. Is it a broken off piece from Big E's armor or could they have melted down a gauntlet, and mixed that into whatever materials the cruxes are made of?

Are we talking about chunks of armor or atoms?

If it's atom, then I think we have a functionally infinite supply.

I always just imagined it as being a tiny shaving from the armour...probably not even as big as your little fingernail and paper-thin, if that.

 mattyrm wrote:
It says sliver of armor in the 5th SM codex, I remember reading it.

A sliver, can be a tiny little wee bit sliced off a shoulder guard or something, so i reckon you could get like 20,000 bits from one piece of armor, I doubt it is enough of a piece to be fluff breaking anyway!

It's easy, ever seen a pot of metal turnings? You only need a few kilos to have a great pile of the things. A metal suit would go a long long way when ground up into shavings. Probably could get millions out of it.

Alternatively it's a lie just like everything else about the Imperium. If you got all the metal from Terminator Cruxes together you could make enough suits for a marine chapter...

I had heard, from someone, somewhere that the crux was made of stone from the emporer's palace. Seems a little more viable since any and all structures will eventually need renovations and they could simply be using the old stones are foundations are repaired etc.

Any chance those shards were only awarded to the terminator veterans right after the end of the heresy? i mean imagine the paperwork needed to be done in the current 40k timeline if you petition for a shard of the Big Es armor to award to new terminator users

Almost all terminator suits are supposed to be relics though, with wars fought to reclaim old suits for refitting. Also the number of marines has stayed roughly the same since the end of the heresy. Therefore its reasonable to assume that all currently existing cruxes can be traced to the end of the heresy. They might have been refitted into new or refurbished suits, but the cruxes themselves are original. Admittedly this may not sit well with the average game of 40k where basically all terminators on all sides get annihalated by the enemy's heavy weapons

maybe Big-E had a big closet of armor. Im sure he had lounging armor, party armor, walking armor, disco armor, etc. Considering his palace takes up most of asia or africa, Im going to assume his walk in closet is the size of Kansas

It is an exaggeration misheard down the ages. The first captains had armor based on the emperors. Each containing a emitter that replicated a small piece of the emperor's armor. After the Heresy, that knowledge was lost, and the stories passed down over time changed from the technology based on the emperors army to being a piece of the emperor's armor.

Note in the Horus Heresy book 1, there is no mention of terminator armor containing a shard at all.

I'm going to go with it's a legend that has been taken as fact after a millennia of telling. This is the same universe where they pray to "machine spirits" and perform sacred incantations to get machines to function properly. They also build weapons and equipment with machines they can't reproduce and have no idea how they actually work. So, spreading stories about how you should fight extra hard because your god emperor gene father has a piece of his armor in your shoulder doesn't seem entirely out of character.

Durandal wrote:
Note in the Horus Heresy book 1, there is no mention of terminator armor containing a shard at all.

That's because it was a post-Heresy affectation.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Hmm, interesting, there's some variance to that in other sources, awarding it to Terminator-equipped Veterans.

I think you're just mis-remembering things that you have read. The idea of the Crux being the honour badge awarded to Veterans trained in the use of Terminator Armour, and the stone crux on the TDA suit including a piece of the Emperor's armour has been there since at least 2nd edition.