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So. my dark angels army is my 'fluffy, I like it' army. I'd like to take my chaos army down the more competitive road. I'm not looking for an army list here...but what units do I need to look long and hard at if I want a competitive list?

From what I've read here thus far....2-3 Heldrakes, oblits, plague marines.

What else should I look at? Please mention and upgrades/wargear that are 'must haves' as well.

more oblits. they really are leet.

Typhus
Juggernaut lord with axe of blind fury and sigil
Obliterators
Plague Marines
Noise marines with blastmasters
heldrakes
zombies/cultists
Chaos Spawn
unmarked lvl 3 sorcerer

I find myself more and more taking the minimum troops and just dealing out the smash to my opposition.

Huron Blackheart

Plague marines. Loads and loads of plague marines

I like the nurgle biker lord with sigil, blight grenades, pfist or black mace, with 5 nurgle spawn. T6 removes ID worries of demolishers, manticores and they are fast & not too expensive. Juggerlord is more Killy, but T5 is a concern.
Also mon on oblits is a must, makes a great unit even better.

 Goat wrote:
Typhus
Juggernaut lord with axe of blind fury and sigil
Obliterators
Plague Marines
Noise marines with blastmasters
heldrakes
zombies/cultists
Chaos Spawn
unmarked lvl 3 sorcerer

I find myself more and more taking the minimum troops and just dealing out the smash to my opposition.

You have 3 HQ 'must takes' there lol.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Goat wrote:
Typhus
Juggernaut lord with axe of blind fury and sigil
Obliterators
Plague Marines
Noise marines with blastmasters
heldrakes
zombies/cultists
Chaos Spawn
unmarked lvl 3 sorcerer

I find myself more and more taking the minimum troops and just dealing out the smash to my opposition.

You have 3 HQ 'must takes' there lol.

I really dont think Typhus is any better than Abby or Huron

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Goat wrote:
Typhus
Juggernaut lord with axe of blind fury and sigil
Obliterators
Plague Marines
Noise marines with blastmasters
heldrakes
zombies/cultists
Chaos Spawn
unmarked lvl 3 sorcerer

I find myself more and more taking the minimum troops and just dealing out the smash to my opposition.

You have 3 HQ 'must takes' there lol.

Well yeah, CSM's HQ slot is probably the most competitive in the whole book. Fast Attack has a number of good options, but all are overshadowed by the heldrake. The HQ slot has so many viable choices that I really wish that GW gave CSM the Space Wolf HQ rule, as it'd fit with the fluff of multiple characters vying for power, and allow for the use of some of the more niche options.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Autocannon Havocs.

So, I'm getting the feeling my wallet is going to have to pass a leadership test or flee the battlefield while putting this all together!

Don't tell my wife!

Honestly, this conversation begins and ends with Heldrakes. Period. Everything else that might be considered "competitive" is either highly situational, strong but over-costed, or being brought up because of group-think (ie - the net says this is good so it must be good even though I haven't played it - I'm looking at you Typhus+zombies). The codex is at best an exercise in mediocrity and the one and ONLY must take is the Heldrake imo. It's the one unit that is powerful without being over-costed (I'm a CSM player and honestly, after the last FAQ I feel like it should have gone UP by a few points), and will have utility in almost every game you play.


The other units you take highly depend on your style of play and your local meta.

Pretty much what Tycho said IMO. I would add though, that the Master of Deception Warlord Trait is absolutely amazing most of the time, so Huron Blackheart or Ahiriman tend to be excellent choices if you aren't going for a Chaos Lord w/ MoN on a Bike.

cowmonaut wrote:
Pretty much what Tycho said IMO. I would add though, that the Master of Deception Warlord Trait is absolutely amazing most of the time, so Huron Blackheart or Ahiriman tend to be excellent choices if you aren't going for a Chaos Lord w/ MoN on a Bike.

Wow wow, hold on there. You shouldn't mention Ahriman when talking about competitive units. He should act as an unmarked sorcerer, not as 230 pts of not-so-uselful-at-all

Huron Blackheart or Ahiriman tend to be excellent choices if you aren't going for a Chaos Lord w/ MoN on a Bike.

Even those are highly situational. Ahriman tends to be way too expensive so I've never actually taken him, but I have been running Huron since the book came out. I initially picked him for his Warlord trait, but I feel like it just really doesn't help as much in this edition. It would be one thing if you could infiltrate a CC unit and then have them in position for an assault turn 1, but you can't, and (at least in my armies) most of your shooty troops aren't really aided by infiltrate either. That's the other catch with CSM - a lot of the new stuff they got would have been FANTASTIC ... in 5th edition ...

I still run Huron because for his points he's a crazy good beat stick and doesn't have Kharn's draw-backs, but yeah, I really haven't seen anyone come up with a really strong use of the infiltrate ability.

Just pick up the chaos terminator lord box with all the customization, you'll never get bored.

Just pick up the chaos terminator lord box with all the customization, you'll never get bored.

IMO still one of the best plastic kits they make. I got so much mileage out of mine it's rediculous.

Tycho wrote:

Just pick up the chaos terminator lord box with all the customization, you'll never get bored.

IMO still one of the best plastic kits they make. I got so much mileage out of mine it's rediculous.

best character sprues certainly. The aspiring champion is probably the worst waste ever though.

Mr. Voidness wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
Pretty much what Tycho said IMO. I would add though, that the Master of Deception Warlord Trait is absolutely amazing most of the time, so Huron Blackheart or Ahiriman tend to be excellent choices if you aren't going for a Chaos Lord w/ MoN on a Bike.

Wow wow, hold on there. You shouldn't mention Ahriman when talking about competitive units. He should act as an unmarked sorcerer, not as 230 pts of not-so-uselful-at-all

Psyker Mastery Level 4, can use three witchfire powers in the same shooting phase, gets access to Telepathy, and guarantees you have Master of Deception (if its what you were after)? I wouldn't call him a bad choice necessarily, despite being 70 points more than Huron. He's Fearless so have him lead a blob of Cultists. If you have a DP you don't really need yet another extra killing Character in combat do you?

A 25 strong Cultist unit lead by Ahirman was recently Infiltrated against me. Between Invisibility (shrouded + stealth) and some of the other gross things in Telepathy it was interesting to try to get them off the Relic. The Flying DP babysitting them meant I couldn't easily tear it up in close combat, since he would charge in and I wouldn't be able to wipe all of that out. Especially if WS1 thanks to Invisibility.

cowmonaut wrote:

Mr. Voidness wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
Pretty much what Tycho said IMO. I would add though, that the Master of Deception Warlord Trait is absolutely amazing most of the time, so Huron Blackheart or Ahiriman tend to be excellent choices if you aren't going for a Chaos Lord w/ MoN on a Bike.

Wow wow, hold on there. You shouldn't mention Ahriman when talking about competitive units. He should act as an unmarked sorcerer, not as 230 pts of not-so-uselful-at-all

Psyker Mastery Level 4, can use three witchfire powers in the same shooting phase, gets access to Telepathy, and guarantees you have Master of Deception (if its what you were after)? I wouldn't call him a bad choice necessarily, despite being 70 points more than Huron. He's Fearless so have him lead a blob of Cultists. If you have a DP you don't really need yet another extra killing Character in combat do you?
A 25 strong Cultist unit lead by Ahirman was recently Infiltrated against me. Between Invisibility (shrouded + stealth) and some of the other gross things in Telepathy it was interesting to try to get them off the Relic. The Flying DP babysitting them meant I couldn't easily tear it up in close combat, since he would charge in and I wouldn't be able to wipe all of that out. Especially if WS1 thanks to Invisibility.

Umm and a DP isnt a great choice either...

3 witchfires a turn(but witchfires suck compared to blessings, especilly the ones Ahriman uses)

A flying DP, Ahriman and 25 cultists. easily 600 points or a third of most armies and its overall DP is rather low. It's surviability is low. It's total usefulness is low. For 600 points it isnt even very scary in close combat.

my start at chaos would be:

Typhus
other HQ, but huron is very very good

35 Zombies
more zombies
more zombies

Helldrake
Helldrake
5 Spawns MON

2 Oblits, Mon, Vets
2 Oblits, Mon , Vets

then season to choise

Typhus is on the over costed side imo and honestly have you actually played with zombies? As bubbkewrap and meatdhieldz they're not bad but using them as the core of a competitive army is not a good idea. It just isn't. I have four different basic TAC lists that regularly curb stomp zombie heavy armies and it's the one army in the entire game that even tau can laugh at as they deploy. As a fun fluffy list it's great, and zombies have their uses, but imo not as the core of a competitive build.

 Exergy wrote:
Umm and a DP isnt a great choice either...

3 witchfires a turn(but witchfires suck compared to blessings, especilly the ones Ahriman uses)

A flying DP, Ahriman and 25 cultists. easily 600 points or a third of most armies and its overall DP is rather low. It's surviability is low. It's total usefulness is low. For 600 points it isnt even very scary in close combat.

How is a DP a poor choice? Flying MCs seem to be popular at my FLGS, and a DP is rather tough to deal with in close combat.

Also, 25 Cultists is only 110 points. That's dirt cheap and with Shrouded + Stealth from Invisibility is damn hard to kill from shooting without something that ignores cover. I never said the Cultists were scary in close combat, but they do take an awful lot of time to deal with. BTW, the Witchfire comment was more to list the options available to you by taking him. There is a time and a place for several different Witchfire abilities. I've mainly seen Maledictions and Blessings passed out by Ahriman though. Some of those are just too good to pass up.


Anyways, that's all beside the point I was trying to make originally, which is that Master of Deception can be downright scary for some lists.

I disagree completely with regards to your thoughts on Typhus, Tycho.

Simply put, Typhus with a squad of Zombies OWN midfield, and any good player worth his salt understands the value of board control. This doesn't even touch on his multiple army-wide buffs which are really quite good.

At Adepticon, my main reason for allying CSM into my Necron list was Typhus/Zombies.. The Heldrake was just gravy (albeit reaaaallly darn good gravy). I happened to do pretty well there with him.

Predator Annihilators

*ducks*

Noise Marines with Blastmasters + Obliterators

So many MEQs in any envrionment, and Blastmasters wreck MEQ, and Obliterators fill the gaps against any army.

I recently wiped an opponent's entire backfield turn 2 with 4xBlastmaster shooting + deepstrike Oblit heavy flamers.

They're good separately - murderlicious combined.

Gifts of Mutation is one of the best things that was given to us in my opinion.
Paying only 10 points to potentially make your character eternal warrior or any of the other crazy things. It's amazing.
I have made a daemon prince to toughness 6... That was just nasty.
And a nurgle Lord on bike have 4 wounds, also very nasty.
Even on the squad champions it's brilliant, your power weapon sergeant becoming initiative 5 or 6 is brilliant against marines.
I never leave home without my mutations!

Everyone has summed it up pretty well. cult troops are better than reg csm. zombies rock. our special character rock, etc etc. competitive lists vary based on your tactics and meta see if opponents will let you proxy stuff to try out while you get a feel for what you want to buy

Exalbaru wrote:
Everyone has summed it up pretty well. cult troops are better than reg csm. zombies rock. our special character rock, etc etc. competitive lists vary based on your tactics and meta see if opponents will let you proxy stuff to try out while you get a feel for what you want to buy

cult troops are better than CSM?

PM are far better than CSM
Noise Marines are about equal, different but equal
Zerkers are rarely if ever better than CSM
Tsons are a broken unit.


So really PM are better than CSM


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChaosCrusader wrote:
Gifts of Mutation is one of the best things that was given to us in my opinion.
Paying only 10 points to potentially make your character eternal warrior or any of the other crazy things. It's amazing.
I have made a daemon prince to toughness 6... That was just nasty.
And a nurgle Lord on bike have 4 wounds, also very nasty.
Even on the squad champions it's brilliant, your power weapon sergeant becoming initiative 5 or 6 is brilliant against marines.
I never leave home without my mutations!

10 points to get +1BS on your BS5 lord, EW on your 1 wound champion, hammer of wrath on your DP, hatred on your Dark Apostle, FNP on your Plague Champ, fleet on your possessed champ, and mechanoid on your termanator champ.

I expected the very first words out of this thread to be "Helldrakes."