Boy Scouts to vote on lifting ban on gay youths today.

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**Bullockist**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Now see we always did the lame merit badges at my troop,, Not the cool ones.
Why did i have to learn basket weaving? WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The gay scouts by asking to do that merit badge were educating you on homosexuality. I suppose after the basket weaving badge came back, sack, and crack merit badge , both of which form part of the process to becoming a peacock scout.

**MrMoustaffa**

I leave for one friggin day and now I'm behind on everything.

Melissia wrote:
Steve steveson wrote:
Don't know about popes (kind of a limited data pool), but there are plenty of homosexual priests. It used to be the job of choice for intelligent gay men 100+ years ago. Or at the very least gay sons were encouraged to become priests.
The incitement of religious hatred of homosexuals in general, and gay males in specific (the cultural concept of homosexual females barely even existed until fairly recently; the idea that "it isn't real sex unless a man's involved" is sadly still prevalent to some extent in how lesbians are treated), is a lot more recent than many folk would readily admit-- while it began as a political tool of certain Byzantium politicians against their political enemies, it really only started to take off in the Victorian era more than a thousand years later, and was escalated up to its current extreme by Puritans. It was certainly not present during the time of the writing of the books, at the very least not in any form that modern Christians might find recognizable.

Humanity, suffice it to say, has issues. Not all of them are ancient. Based off of what I have read from historical accounts, including accounts of modifications made to the Bible, I believe that there is no hatred of homosexuals promulgated by the original Christian texts, and that the texts have been modified and mistranslated over the years to include them as the Christian culture changed over the years. In many ways, our focus is far different than the original writers likely would have intended.

Welcome to 'Murica. We hate everyone different than us. Especially if they're different in a way that makes our brains hurt.

Soladrin wrote:I read motorboating completely out of context there.

Alright you win, enjoy your exalt

hotsauceman1 wrote:Now see we always did the lame merit badges at my troop,, Not the cool ones.
Why did i have to learn basket weaving? WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because you're a square

No but seriously I feel bad for you man, I've seen a lot of kids quit scout because their troop decided to do some easy "boring" badges first, and they just lost interest.

Alfndrate wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:
@Motyak: it seems to mean less now for no reason that has to do with gays. Instead it seems to be more of just a general indifference to scouting in general. I imagine that would have something to do with the drop off in membership and the fact that sadly, many kids experience with scouting ends up like hotsauceman's or SlaveToDarkness's.

@HotSauceman, he got off lucky if that's true. You're supposed to do a heck of a lot more than just put up a bench. You sure he didn't do anything else?

Also realize that I'm just playing devil's advocate here when I'm arguing guys. I'm very happy the ban was lifted, and hope that more progress is made soon. Just trying to explain why you're even seeing resistance to this in the first place. Otherwise the ban would've lifted a long time ago.

Nothing else but a bench.

I painted a room. Granted it was for the 1st graders and kindergarden students of the elementary school attached to our charter organization (a Catholic churg with a k through 8 school attached to it) after the professional painters came in and fethed it up! Granted it was a large room, and they haven't had to repaint it in the 8 years since I did it, and shouldn't have to do it for at least another 12

God you guys are lucky. My project alone had 40 something people show up. We cleaned up an entire cemetery, reset tombstones, cleared and burned god knows how much honeysuckle, filled in sunken graves, etc.. My troop's motto was apparently "if it ain't moving heaven and earth, you don't get the badge." To be fair though, that's because we had 10 guys in a row do nothing but raised flower beds over and over again. I could probably put one up in my sleep.

Alfndrate wrote:Also if you got Basket Weaving before it became more than 2 requirements, you have every right to brag about that ridiculously easy badge .

Surprisingly I didn't have half the merit badges I taught. I taught First Aid, Emergency Prepardeness, Camping, Hiking*, Cooking, Pioneering*, Rifle*, Archery, Backpacking*, Wilderness Survival*, Photography, Citizenship in the Nation... there were probably a few more that I taught... and I guess also technically Game Design... but I haven't taught that one yet.

* - Denotes a badge Alf taught but did not earn!

Edit: Frazz, is GC a GS or is she a part of Venturing?

I remember back when the art meritbadge was pretty easy to get. Our handicraft director came up with a contest amongst the staff to see who could "earn" it the fastest.

I think the record was 37 seconds. Man that was a fun day. Obviously if we wanted the badge we had to go back and do it "right", but it was all in good fun.

**Iranna**

I'm always confused by these types of issues in America - surely your sexual orientation doesn't matter in how well you tie a knot?

I agree with Melissia about the Girl Scouts - perhaps the Boy Scouts could take a leaf out of their book.

Iranna.

**Alfndrate**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
God you guys are lucky. My project alone had 40 something people show up. We cleaned up an entire cemetery, reset tombstones, cleared and burned god knows how much mulch, filled in sunken graves, etc.. My troop's motto was apparently "if it ain't moving heaven and earth, you don't get the badge." To be fair though, that's because we had 10 guys in a row do nothing but raised flower beds over and over again. I could probably put one up in my sleep.

Hey, screw you

My project was immensely involved. Have you ever seen 13 to 16 yr olds try to scrape paint off of a wall when we weren't allowed to use scaffolding? Also the paint was very strange, it would come off if you scraped at it with your thumb, but using actual like paint scrapers... nope!

. And I started my project at the beginning of June and finished it at the beginning of September, so don't tell me I was lucky

. I also actively went searching for the project. I spoke with my church, my charter organization (another church), local groups in the area. Everyone but my character organization would give me an idea, I would do some preliminary leg work and then get told that it wasn't in the cards (even though they didn't have to do anything...). Finally my charter organization gave me the idea and asked me to come up with a project plan, and an expected timeline (I had to have it done before school started, because of my summer job though we were 2 weeks late, but at that point it was a matter of getting the final coat on).

**Dreadclaw69**

Apologies if this is the wrong place but seeing as this thread is still recent and concerns the topic at hand i thought I'd post this here

http://news.yahoo.com/churches-split-scouts-welcoming-gay-youth-192048337.html

In suburban Atlanta, northern Idaho and a number of other places, churches have moved swiftly to sever ties with the Boy Scouts of America in protest over the vote last month to let openly gay boys participate in Scouting.

To date, it's far from the mass defection that some conservatives had predicted before the vote by the BSA's National Council. But the exodus could soon swell, depending on the outcome of the Southern Baptist Convention's annual meeting next week in Houston.

Baptist leaders say the agenda is likely to include a resolution encouraging SBC-affiliated churches to phase out their sponsorships of Scout units.

"I would bet there would be a resolution expressing disappointment with the Boy Scouts' decision and calling on Southern Baptist churches to prepare for the need for alternatives," said the Rev. Russell Moore, president of the SBC's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission.

"How quickly that happens will probably differ from congregation to congregation," Moore said. "I do think most Southern Baptists see the Boy Scouts moving in a direction that's not going to be consistent with our beliefs."

The Southern Baptists — the largest Protestant denomination in the U.S. — already have a youth program for boys, the Royal Ambassadors. SBC leaders have suggested it could expand to accommodate boys leaving the Scouts.

According to BSA figures, Baptist churches sponsor Scout units serving about 108,000 of the BSA's 2.6 million youth members.

While many Baptist churches may be awaiting the outcome of next week's meeting, some already have decided to break with the BSA.

In Marietta, Ga., pastor Ernest Easley said his Roswell Street Baptist Church is ending its affiliation with Boy Scout Troop 204 that dates back to 1945.

"I never dreamed I'd have to stand up publicly and say to parents: 'Pull your kids out of the Boy Scouts,'" Easley told Baptist Press, the SBC's official news agency.

Baptist churches in Elizabethtown and Rineyville, Ky., Helena and Pelham, Ala., and Jacksonville, Ark., also say they're cutting ties with the BSA.

Tim Reed, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Gravel Ridge in Jacksonville, said in an e-mail that his congregation — including a 15-year-old boy on track to win the coveted Eagle Scout rank — strongly backed the decision to end sponsorship of a Scout troop.

"He was set to be one of the youngest boys to make Eagle," Reed wrote. "He said that he must uphold God's word over the Boy Scouts' decision no matter what the personal cost."

Among the latest to cut ties was Candlelight Christian Fellowship, a nondenominational church in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, which announced this week that it would end its charter of a Boy Scout troop at the end of this year.

"We're a Bible-believing church, and the Boy Scouts have opted to pursue a different moral path," said the associate pastor, Buck Storm. "It's a sad time for us."

In all, about 70 percent of the 116,000 Scout units in the United States are sponsored by religious organizations.

Some are liberal denominations that welcomed the change of policy on gay youths and want the Boy Scouts to go further by lifting the still-intact ban on gays serving as adult leaders. But some of the largest sponsors are relatively conservative churches that had long supported the Scouts' no-gays policy, and have been wrestling with how to respond to the May 23 vote.

To the relief of BSA leaders, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has said it accepts the new youth policy and will not cut ties. The Mormons sponsor more Scout units than any other organization, serving about 430,000 boys.

The United Methodist Church, the second-largest sponsor serving about 363,000 boys, has shied away from official endorsement or rejection of the BSA policy change. Some individual Methodist leaders have been critical, while the General Commission on United Methodist Men, which oversees the denomination's youth programs, says it will continue to support Scouting.

Similar divisions have surfaced within the Roman Catholic Church, the third-largest Scout sponsor serving about 273,000 youths.

A Catholic pastor in Bremerton, Wash., the Rev. Derek Lappe of Our Lady Star of the Sea, wrote an open letter to his parishioners announcing that the parish would cut its ties with the Scouts and develop new youth programs of its own.

"I am very aware that my objection to the change ... is increasingly considered bigoted and backward," Lappe wrote. "But I won't put public opinion ahead of the good of the boys and young men in my parish."

In the Chicago suburb of Crystal Lake, the pastor of St. Elizabeth Ann Seton Catholic Church notified local Scout leaders that the church would no longer sponsor a Cub Scout pack and Boy Scout troop. In a letter conveying the decision, the Rev. Brian Grady wrote that it would be "not only unjust, but immoral" for straight boys to have to share tents on camping trips with gay Scouts.

And in Arlington, Va., Catholic Bishop Paul Loverde issued a statement saying the new membership policy "forces us to prayerfully reconsider whether a continued partnership with the BSA will be possible."

"It is highly disappointing to see the Boy Scouts of America succumb to external pressures and political causes at the cost of its moral integrity," said Loverde, who predicted the policy change will bring "continuing controversy, policy fights and discord."

However, the National Catholic Committee on Scouting — which works with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops to coordinate the church's involvement in Scouting — has taken a more positive view of the policy change.

"We should be encouraged that the change in BSA's youth membership standard is not in conflict with Catholic teaching," Edward Martin, the committee's chairman, wrote last week in an open letter to Catholics involved in Scouting.

Martin, an Eagle Scout with five children who've been Scouts, said his committee would form a task force to work with Catholic dioceses and parishes on how best to go forward in light of the change.

"Our youth don't want to leave Scouting. Scouting is still the best program around," Martin wrote. "Let's continue this important journey together."

Another conservative denomination, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, says it is "deeply concerned" by the policy change, and continues to deliberate on how it will respond.

From its headquarters in Texas, the BSA has formed a task force to smooth the path of implementing the new policy, which will take effect on Jan. 1, 2014.

Meanwhile, the BSA says it is reaching out to the organizations that sponsor Scout troops, including those which oppose the policy change.

"We're finding that for many people, when they read the new policy they see it is reflective of the beliefs of most of Scouting's major religious chartered organizations," said BSA spokesman Deron Smith.

Russell Moore, the Southern Baptist official, said he doubted the Scouts' outreach would succeed in overcoming his denomination's opposition to the policy change, in part because of a sense that the BSA will eventually lift the ban on gay adults serving as leaders.

"Most Southern Baptists are seeing a trajectory that we've seen before in other cultural institutions," Moore said. "We know how this movie ends."

**daedalus**

Oh man, you'd think that they actually believe that "the gay" is gonna get them.

It's sad. Also somewhat predictable. Wake me up when people stop being so worried about what other people are doing with their bodies.

**Easy E**

daedalus wrote:
Oh man, you'd think that they actually believe that "the gay" is gonna get them.

It's sad. Also somewhat predictable. Wake me up when people stop being so worried about what other people are doing with their bodies.

You are going to be sleeping for a long, long, LONG time.

**Bullockist**

It's not what people are doing with their bodies,it's what people are doing with their bodies to other people.

These people know rightly that "the gays" are just waiting to leap out and gayify the unsuspecting public , because that's what those sex mad deviants are all about .. <----- satire

**daedalus**

Well, isn't... err.. "receipt" of an action willfully still something you're doing with your body?

For example, if I get a tattoo, I'm not giving myself a tattoo. I'm sitting there while someone else is injecting me with ink. But it's still something "I'm" doing.

**M_Stress**

That is why i'm real happy of Scout Canada:

"Scouts Canada has a policy not to discriminate for reasons of gender, culture, religious belief or sexual orientation. Although Scouts Canada's principles requires a basic spiritual belief, members are not required to subscribe to a religion or belief in god."

**Frazzled**

Wait how can you have a spiritual belief but not religion? That IS religion.

Typical Canadian, drunk on your maple syrup power, you can't even think clearly. He who controls the Maple controls the Universe!

**hotsauceman1**

is says "subscribe to a religion or beleief in god"
You do not have to be part of a denomination or believe in god, but if you go in thrying to say everyne is stupid for believing in gods, ghosts or UFO's then you are gone

**daedalus**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
is says "subscribe to a religion or beleief in god"
You do not have to be part of a denomination or believe in god, but if you go in thrying to say everyne is stupid for believing in gods, ghosts or UFO's then you are gone

But I believe in J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, my short-term savior, who says that everyone is stupid for believing in gods, ghosts, or UFO's, including Dobbs. I'm probably the stupidest out of all stupid followers of religion, but I LIKE IT that way. The Church of the Subgenius: forever pulling the wool down over our own eyes.

(My point is that the justification of a goofy rule that won't logically evaluate still a cop-out)

**Frazzled**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
is says "subscribe to a religion or beleief in god"
You do not have to be part of a denomination or believe in god, but if you go in thrying to say everyne is stupid for believing in gods, ghosts or UFO's then you are gone

yes actually. You have to be part of some organized or unorganized religion to be spiritual.

"You ever hear girls say that? “I’m not religious, but I’m spiritual.” I like to reply with “I’m not honest, but you’re interesting!”"
-Daniel Tosh.

**hotsauceman1**

That is what i was saying, You can believe in spirits w/o believeing in god, ISnt that what buddhists believe

**daedalus**

I usually like to respond with, "What the feth does that actually mean?!"

It doesn't get me far.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

hotsauceman1 wrote:
That is what i was saying, You can believe in spirits w/o believeing in god, ISnt that what buddhists believe

That has no bearing on the topic. The belief in a God is not a mutually inclusive requirement for being a "Religion".

**Frazzled**

Exactly.

**hotsauceman1**

Then what is frazzled saying?
He is saying that you cant have spritual belief and not be part of a religion.
Im saying you can.

**Frazzled**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Then what is frazzled saying?
He is saying that you cant have spritual belief and not be part of a religion.
Im saying you can.

No he's saying someone who believes in spirits is being religious. Someone who believes in flower power is an idiot.

**daedalus**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Then what is frazzled saying?
He is saying that you cant have spritual belief and not be part of a religion.
Im saying you can.

Frazz is saying that "Spiritual but not religious" is a non-phrase that doesn't really mean anything. I agree with that. I realize what you're saying, I just don't think your argument is sound.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Someone who believes in flower power is an idiot.

I always preferred the cape myself. It could kill more stuff than the flower power could AND you could fly with it.

**hotsauceman1**

Frazzled wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Then what is frazzled saying?
He is saying that you cant have spritual belief and not be part of a religion.
Im saying you can.

No he's saying someone who believes in spirits is being religious. Someone who believes in flower power is an idiot.

He, My car runs on Daisies.

**Soladrin**

Frazzled wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
is says "subscribe to a religion or beleief in god"
You do not have to be part of a denomination or believe in god, but if you go in thrying to say everyne is stupid for believing in gods, ghosts or UFO's then you are gone

yes actually. You have to be part of some organized or unorganized religion to be spiritual.

Because clearly believing in what you want to believe in yourself is not allowed.

**daedalus**

Soladrin wrote:

Because clearly believing in what you want to believe in yourself is not allowed.

To turn the point around: Does religion have to be organized, in nature?

Spirituality is an attribute of self as it relates to what one holds sacred. Religion is an set of beliefs.on how the world relates to the metaphysical. Spirituality is feeling, religion is practice.

At least that's how I pin the two down. Solid definitions of what those words mean to people appear to not really exist so much. Maybe my mind is too small to comprehend how one could be one but not the other, but it still seems like a cop-out that means "I'm a Christian by default, but i don't go to church or think about the hard things." Again, drawing upon my experience with women I've dated, who are the only ones I've ever heard actually use that phrase with a straight face in real life.

**Mannahnin**

Religion is a set of practices and formalized beliefs about deity, worship, and the nature of the divine.

Spirituality is the general belief that there is a non-physical, supernatural component to the world and reality, without tying that to a formal set of religious practices or a specific deity or set of deities. People who believe in ghosts or spirits or faeries or totems or ancestors watching over us or the collective unconscious might consider themselves spiritual but not religious, if they don't participate in a formalized system of worship.

**daedalus**

Can you not then have an informal religion?

**Frazzled**

Soladrin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
is says "subscribe to a religion or beleief in god"
You do not have to be part of a denomination or believe in god, but if you go in thrying to say everyne is stupid for believing in gods, ghosts or UFO's then you are gone

yes actually. You have to be part of some organized or unorganized religion to be spiritual.

Because clearly believing in what you want to believe in yourself is not allowed.

Well if you believe in something, thats religion. Just saying you're spiritual with no actual belief doesn't cut it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:
Religion is a set of practices and formalized beliefs about deity, worship, and the nature of the divine.

Spirituality is the general belief that there is a non-physical, supernatural component to the world and reality, without tying that to a formal set of religious practices or a specific deity or set of deities. People who believe in ghosts or spirits or faeries or totems or ancestors watching over us or the collective unconscious might consider themselves spiritual but not religious, if they don't participate in a formalized system of worship.

See my definition of "religion" includes that.

**Bullockist**

daedalus wrote:

But I believe in J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, my short-term savior, who says that everyone is stupid for believing in gods, ghosts, or UFO's, including Dobbs. I'm probably the stupidest out of all stupid followers of religion, but I LIKE IT that way. The Church of the Subgenius: forever pulling the wool down over our own eyes.

(My point is that the justification of a goofy rule that won't logically evaluate still a cop-out)

The church of Fox? I agree, you sound like you qualify as a member

**frgsinwntr**

Frazzled wrote:
Soladrin wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
is says "subscribe to a religion or beleief in god"
You do not have to be part of a denomination or believe in god, but if you go in thrying to say everyne is stupid for believing in gods, ghosts or UFO's then you are gone

yes actually. You have to be part of some organized or unorganized religion to be spiritual.

Because clearly believing in what you want to believe in yourself is not allowed.

Well if you believe in something, thats religion. Just saying you're spiritual with no actual belief doesn't cut it.

yeah, your right frazzled. Keep pushing more people to my atheist side : )

**daedalus**

Bullockist wrote:
daedalus wrote:

But I believe in J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, my short-term savior, who says that everyone is stupid for believing in gods, ghosts, or UFO's, including Dobbs. I'm probably the stupidest out of all stupid followers of religion, but I LIKE IT that way. The Church of the Subgenius: forever pulling the wool down over our own eyes.

(My point is that the justification of a goofy rule that won't logically evaluate still a cop-out)

The church of Fox? I agree, you sound like you qualify as a member

Awww. :(

Google the Hour of Slack podcast. It's gonzo broadcasting in the 21st century.

**yani**

Being gay or not in a scout troop is literally the least important issue ever.
'Hi I'm Bob. I like grass, trees and cake. I don't like girls'
'Ewww girls'
'eughhh girl germs'
'lets stick twigs up our nose'
'Yayyyy'