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So, after playing the new HE for a while, I've decided that the book is actually pretty awesome overall, barring a few choices. (This is my opinion, let's not get into any arguments about it.) The bad choices, I've found, are: The Annointed of Asuryan, The Lothern Sea Helm, Sea Guard, High magic and the Flamespyre Phoenix. I shall state my reasoning for this when I discuss each character.

Now, out of the lords, I've found myself using the Archmage in all my games, and a prince/loremaster. The archmage is still an autoinclude, and the book of hoeth is frankly, a must have. I like to take a 4+ ward on this chap, due to past experience in my dark elves where my level 4 ALWAYS managed to get into combat when I didn't take a ward. The book allows some extra flexibility with the number of dice used, but it is random. The points decrease this guy took makes him seem like an amazing bargain, and he is for what you get. I

The other standout lord, is the loremaster. I've found, that in large games(1.5k+) he isn't good enough to be a solo lord, but in conjunction with a level 4, there are some pretty good combinations. I've been looking at double spirit leech, and iceshard mostly. Equipment wise, I find that the best thing to give him is the Armour of Caledor, or Giant Blade and Shield of the Merwyrm. That gives him a 4+ armour, 4+ parry vs BS based shooting and S7, which HE struggle to get in the new book. This guy's main role in the army is a defensive one. To sit near the archmage spitting out spells that complement the army and babysit him.

The prince, where to start...At 140 points, he is cheaper than his old counterpart, and he has more options. (This is true, he now gets a lion cloak.) But, I find that the way to run him is also S7, with the enchanted shield for defense. This suddenly gives a unit 4 S7 attacks which adds a punch to a unit, and gives the unit a way to deal with heavily armoured stuff, which is something the new book struggles with.

Onto the Annointed. I REALLY don't see the point in this chap. I mean, if you're going for a quad phoenix list, I mean sure, he is the way to go. But, he isn't as hitty as a prince, and a phoenix isn't as hitty as a dragon. Yes, he comes with a 4+ ward as standard. Yes he gives his unit a 6+ ward. But you're paying about 70 points over a prince for that, and I don't think they're worth the premium.

As for heroes, the Noble deserves a special mention. As a BSB, he is one of the most important characters in the army. As such, he needs to be protected as such. I find that the Enchanted shield and Golden crown generally take you pretty far, but a 5+ ward is necessary to make him as survivable as you can. If you can take the shield of the merwyrm, even better. The best choice, IMO, is the Armour of Caledor. The end result however, is him being survivable.

A level 1 mage is important as it allows you to get a dispel scroll. Even more, if taken on high magic, you gain access to 2 useful spells that allow you to buff up your unit's ward.

The Sea Helm, suffers from the same issues as the Annointed, he has a gimmick that doesn't give enough reasoning to take him over a Noble unless it is a themed list. I like the idea of the combat reform on being charged, but I don't see the point of taking him over a noble. A combat noble is cheaper, and can be given a better armour save. The same goes for a BSB.

Corewise, I think the standout choices are silver helms. The reason for this is that they work in MSU, and Large units. The 2+ save makes and ASF lances means that they have a high damage output and survivability and a relatively low cost.

Spearmen are relatively similar to their old counterparts, as are archers and Sea Guard. The problem with sea guard, is that they do what the other infantry core do at a premium and no better/less effective.

Reavers are good. They provide a chaff drop and some mobile shooting. They're nothing special.

Now that I've wrapped that up in a little bow, I'll move onto specials.

I haven't used Lion chariots because they don't appeal to me but I do think they have a place in the army. HOWEVER, that place is better suited to swordsmasters. These guys excel at killing T3 infantry, which the rest of the army doesn't struggle with.

As for the White Lions themselves, now that they've lost their rerolls, their effectiveness has gone down a fair bit. That is not to say they are bad. They're one of the best combat units in the book. I find that 40 of these chaps still put out a lot of hurt. Banner options on these guys allows for a 50pt magic banner. I think the +1 movement banner of flaming banner goes well with these guys.

As for Swordsmasters. I'm really liking these guys. The WS6 makes them that bit better in combat. Again, they suffer from the lack of rerolls. These guys go well with the razor standard. It makes them able to deal with armour, that bit better.

Shadow warriors, are lackluster. They're BS5 now, which is good, but they compete for a special slot with swordsmasters, and they are flimsy. What confuses me is that why they have hatred against Dark Elves, when only 3 units have higher initiative than them, and if they're in combat with aforementioned units they're already dead.

Phoenix guard are, IMO, one of the best units in the whole book, due to them remaining the same, and gaining the ability to fight in an extra rank. These guys are also the prime candidate for the Banner of the World Dragon. As they don't die, and they can fight. So anything that hunts mages will have to get through them before they get to the mages. And if necessary, they can hold their own against most units.

Dragon Princes are amazing. Done. Moving on.

But seriously, these guys make an amazing bus. The only downside is, they are S5 for one round only, and after that, you're relying on your S7 prince to do the damage.

The Skycutter is pretty good. Most people are down on it because of the bolt thrower. The fact is, it is a S5 botlthrower with a max range of 34" for 120 points. And that is pretty good. But nothing to write home about. Other than that they're pretty good chaff drops.

Tiranoc chariots are another thing that fit the role of things that kill T3. But they do it less effectively than the other chariot they compete with a special slot for.

Bolt throwers in the new book are worth taking, as they've lost the penalty for multiple shots and are 70 points. You can also take 4 in an army. What else can I say other than they're pretty good.

Eagles are eagles, and they serve the same purpose now as they did then. They are exactly the same, apart from the upgrades. Which I don't think are worth taking.

The flamespyre is something that competes with the role of killing T3. I find that the frostheart fills a unique role, in that it can kill 1+ saves pretty well. But the flamesypre doesn't have the strength to take out heavyily armoured stuff and doesn't kill T3 as well as the combat specials.

The frostheart, as I've mentioned has the ability to kill heavily armoures stuff, and it's aura makes it pretty resilient to damage, in that you have to be S6 yourself to have a reasonable chance of hurting it.

And lastly, we come onto the sisters. I love these guys. They're the best shooting unit in the new book. The S4 flaming bows means that they remove regen pretty reliably, as well as doing wounds.

So there it is. My rants and ramblings about all the units in the book.


Now onto magic and items.


The lore of High magic is pretty lackluster, with a few really good spells and a couple of bad ones The spells that stick out to me, are Fiery Convocation, Arcane Unforging, Walk Between worlds and both signatures. The reverse miasma is pretty useful, but I think that a rulebook lore will fit with the army much better.

As for the items. a few stick out as 'eh?'. They are as follows:

The wayshard. 50 points, and an ambushing nit of 30 spearmen or archers. I don't see why that would ever work, unless you ambush a unit behind the enemy lines, and riddle it with buffs. But then the rest of your army wouldn't be that hard to deal with, and your opponent could take out a minor win.

The other one is the cloak of beards. Dwarves don't really care about terror, and will more often than not, kill off an elven army before it even reaches them so the destroying items in base to base contact on a 4+ is fairly moot.

The rest of the items are pretty awesome/useful




So folks, there it is, a concentrated wall of text regarding my opinions on what is good and bad in the new High Elf book.


On a side note, someone let me know if I posted this in the right place. I'm tired.

Interested at the Dragon Prince love.
My Chaos Knights munched them, even thiugh the dragons got the charge. They weren't a bus though, so los killing power totally after that.
I also found Pheonix Guard easier to kill than lions, because they are so weak. I guess it will be different for lower armour armies, but PG get munched by Chaos core. Hat to think what Chosn would do to them.

As for the princes, i send normal charriots of nurgle at them, had a single one last game that allone chased of a group of 10

Phoenix guard meh, not that scary when i reduce their Ws with 1 and so with their I, go go nurgle!

Niteware wrote:
Interested at the Dragon Prince love.
My Chaos Knights munched them, even thiugh the dragons got the charge. They weren't a bus though, so los killing power totally after that.
I also found Pheonix Guard easier to kill than lions, because they are so weak. I guess it will be different for lower armour armies, but PG get munched by Chaos core. Hat to think what Chosn would do to them.

You are aware they have a 4+ ward right? Against Everything. That means that 50% of the wounds you do to them should be saved. Vs the white lions who get no saves in combat.

As for the dragon princes, it's like I said. You're relying on the S7 characters to do the damage.

You'll be singing a much different tune regarding the Anointed after your first run-in with a Ld-bombing Slaaneshii army!

The Mask + Phantasmagoria + Doom & Darkness = unit near-instant fails all your Fear/Terror checks.

Experiment 626 wrote:
You'll be singing a much different tune regarding the Anointed after your first run-in with a Ld-bombing Slaaneshii army!

The Mask + Phantasmagoria + Doom & Darkness = unit near-instant fails all your Fear/Terror checks.

Two things about that. A. you have to cast two of those. And, B. You have to get the mask in range. And it isn't that hard to kill the mask when you have two, possibly 3 death snipes in your arsenal.

I am aware that PG have a 4++, but my exerience is tha I do 7 - 9 wounds and take 1 - 4. PG run away after second round of combat.

I love the anoited for the simple reason he comes with so many magic items already and frees them up for more characters. He gets tal of pres (45 pts), MR2 (30 pts), ITP, and gives his unit a 6+ wardsave. This allows my archmage to take tal of pres and my noble bsb to take armor of destiny. Yes he has one less attack, but as HEs, if we are relying on our characters for offense we are truly in trouble.

furbyballer wrote:
I love the anoited for the simple reason he comes with so many magic items already and frees them up for more characters. He gets tal of pres (45 pts), MR2 (30 pts), ITP, and gives his unit a 6+ wardsave. This allows my archmage to take tal of pres and my noble bsb to take armor of destiny. Yes he has one less attack, but as HEs, if we are relying on our characters for offense we are truly in trouble.

If you want a combat character, a prince with a 1+ rerollable has a better damage output/survivability ratio. And with a prince, you're generally making him S7 with the giant blade anyway, so most things he fights will be dead before they swing. The fact that he is 210 points means that the prince is far more cost effective, and better in combat. If you take him just for his buffs, that is wasting most of his points, because he still wants to be in combat, but he can't fight as well as a cheaper, more combat ready character.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:
I am aware that PG have a 4++, but my exerience is tha I do 7 - 9 wounds and take 1 - 4. PG run away after second round of combat.

Phoenix guard are an anvil. Especially with the new lore attribute. They can fight, admittedly not as well as white lions or swordsmasters, but they are generally steadfast. And the reason I say these guys are one of the best choices in the book is the level 1 on high giving them an easy 3+ ward.

furbyballer wrote:
I love the anoited for the simple reason he comes with so many magic items already and frees them up for more characters. He gets tal of pres (45 pts), MR2 (30 pts), ITP, and gives his unit a 6+ wardsave. This allows my archmage to take tal of pres and my noble bsb to take armor of destiny. Yes he has one less attack, but as HEs, if we are relying on our characters for offense we are truly in trouble.

Yeah, not a lot of armies are putter a character on foot with a 2+ rerollable armor save, 4+ ward, MR2 and gives his unit ITP and 6+ ward (so whoever he joins has a 4+ ward vs spells).
His problem is that he should never be in with phoenix guard, which fluff wise is a little strange.

Wayshard is awesome. You're right, it wouldn't work, unless you come in on a flank or behind enemy lines. 6 deep elves in the flank can break units all on their own.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

furbyballer wrote:
I love the anoited for the simple reason he comes with so many magic items already and frees them up for more characters. He gets tal of pres (45 pts), MR2 (30 pts), ITP, and gives his unit a 6+ wardsave. This allows my archmage to take tal of pres and my noble bsb to take armor of destiny. Yes he has one less attack, but as HEs, if we are relying on our characters for offense we are truly in trouble.

Yeah, not a lot of armies are putter a character on foot with a 2+ rerollable armor save, 4+ ward, MR2 and gives his unit ITP and 6+ ward (so whoever he joins has a 4+ ward vs spells).
His problem is that he should never be in with phoenix guard, which fluff wise is a little strange.

Wayshard is awesome. You're right, it wouldn't work, unless you come in on a flank or behind enemy lines. 6 deep elves in the flank can break units all on their own.

Its the same thing about Korhil, you will never see him in a unit of white lions because you need to spread the stubborn around. I know its not fluffy, but it is very effective. Our entire army can be stubborn and fear causing and ITP which is huge.

furbyballer wrote:

Its the same thing about Korhil, you will never see him in a unit of white lions because you need to spread the stubborn around. I know its not fluffy, but it is very effective. Our entire army can be stubborn and fear causing and ITP which is huge.

High Elves are the new Lizardmen?

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

furbyballer wrote:
I love the anoited for the simple reason he comes with so many magic items already and frees them up for more characters. He gets tal of pres (45 pts), MR2 (30 pts), ITP, and gives his unit a 6+ wardsave. This allows my archmage to take tal of pres and my noble bsb to take armor of destiny. Yes he has one less attack, but as HEs, if we are relying on our characters for offense we are truly in trouble.

Yeah, not a lot of armies are putter a character on foot with a 2+ rerollable armor save, 4+ ward, MR2 and gives his unit ITP and 6+ ward (so whoever he joins has a 4+ ward vs spells).
His problem is that he should never be in with phoenix guard, which fluff wise is a little strange.

Wayshard is awesome. You're right, it wouldn't work, unless you come in on a flank or behind enemy lines. 6 deep elves in the flank can break units all on their own.

I never said he wasn't good. I just said, he pales in comparison to the prince, who is a better fighter, has a higher leadership and has more customisation options. If the Annointed were in a similar price bracket as the prince, I would most definitely view him as a good choice, but as it stands, a prince is far better.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

I never said he wasn't good. I just said, he pales in comparison to the prince, who is a better fighter, has a higher leadership and has more customisation options. If the Annointed were in a similar price bracket as the prince, I would most definitely view him as a good choice, but as it stands, a prince is far better.

You didn't say he wasn't good, you said:

Onto the Annointed. I REALLY don't see the point in this chap

The point of this guy is to round out already tough infantry. Stick him in with white lions.
3+ armor vs shooting, 6+ ward, tons of S6 attacks, Stubborn, MR2, ITP.
He rounds out a big block by covering what it didn't have (ward, ITP, MR).
Yes, he has 1 less attack. But he should be taken in a unit with ~30-40 S6 attacks. You're not going to miss that 1 attack.

I honestly don't see the point of the prince.
If I want an elf for challenges, I'm taking Annoited with Silvered Armor, Dawn Stone and Sword of Anti-heroes (this load out for joining white lions)
If I'm joining swordmasters, I'd take fencers blades, golden scales, and crown of command. (WS10, -1 to be hit, 4+ ward, MR2, ITP, Stubborn).
If I want leadership, I'll make the arch mage, Lore Master or annointed the general and stick in the 15 point banner for Ld10.

Why would you take a prince? 4 S7 attacks? A Dragon? Both are very cost ineffective.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

furbyballer wrote:

Its the same thing about Korhil, you will never see him in a unit of white lions because you need to spread the stubborn around. I know its not fluffy, but it is very effective. Our entire army can be stubborn and fear causing and ITP which is huge.

High Elves are the new Lizardmen?

-Matt

Nope, can't take 2 broken wizards

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

I never said he wasn't good. I just said, he pales in comparison to the prince, who is a better fighter, has a higher leadership and has more customisation options. If the Annointed were in a similar price bracket as the prince, I would most definitely view him as a good choice, but as it stands, a prince is far better.

You didn't say he wasn't good, you said:

Onto the Annointed. I REALLY don't see the point in this chap

The point of this guy is to round out already tough infantry. Stick him in with white lions.
3+ armor vs shooting, 6+ ward, tons of S6 attacks, Stubborn, MR2, ITP.
He rounds out a big block by covering what it didn't have (ward, ITP, MR).
Yes, he has 1 less attack. But he should be taken in a unit with ~30-40 S6 attacks. You're not going to miss that 1 attack.

I honestly don't see the point of the prince.
If I want an elf for challenges, I'm taking Annoited with Silvered Armor, Dawn Stone and Sword of Anti-heroes (this load out for joining white lions)
If I'm joining swordmasters, I'd take fencers blades, golden scales, and crown of command. (WS10, -1 to be hit, 4+ ward, MR2, ITP, Stubborn).
If I want leadership, I'll make the arch mage, Lore Master or annointed the general and stick in the 15 point banner for Ld10.

Why would you take a prince? 4 S7 attacks? A Dragon? Both are very cost ineffective.

-Matt

The reason to take a prince is do something the rest of the army can't, reliably deal with 1+ armour saves. Which you need S7+ to do. Anything lower than that won't cut it. 4 S7 attacks from a prince, and 3 S7 from a noble, will make your opponent rush in with his expensive 1+ save units. It may not be cost effective, but, I'd say it has more of a place in an army that doesn't really care for psychology tests than the annointed. You say he gives a unit a 6+ ward, but I plan on being on a 3/4 ward once I hit combat anyway.

I've run several games with the Anointed, and I think he's awesome but not in the roll that you have stated. In CC yes, the Annointed is not as Killy as a prince. However the Anointed can do several things that prince isn't designed for, or doesn't do very well.

I've been running the dreaded White Lion Horde, which is now feared in my meta. The Anointed gives this unit so much protection (as Matt has stated above), And the 6+ ward save granted to the unit has saved models in the unit to keep its threat level high, which is something the prince can't do.

Also you can give the Anointed the giant blade so that you still have re-rollable S7 attacks, yes you loose 1 attack compared to the prince but you gain so many buffs on your combat unit.

Also I've been playing with High Magic, which is also amazing for the WL horde ( the lore attribute acts as a force multiplier). The key is that the spells aren't as important as the lore attribute. I honestly prefer to not get any of the damage spells. The goal each magic phase is to cast as many spells as possible so that you can get the +1 to ward save for the unit. I've only had one game where this didn't happen, and the Annointed 6+ ward was very helpful.

Your post was very helpful, I just wanted to share my game play experience to show you a counter point.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

I never said he wasn't good. I just said, he pales in comparison to the prince, who is a better fighter, has a higher leadership and has more customisation options. If the Annointed were in a similar price bracket as the prince, I would most definitely view him as a good choice, but as it stands, a prince is far better.

You didn't say he wasn't good, you said:

Onto the Annointed. I REALLY don't see the point in this chap

The point of this guy is to round out already tough infantry. Stick him in with white lions.
3+ armor vs shooting, 6+ ward, tons of S6 attacks, Stubborn, MR2, ITP.
He rounds out a big block by covering what it didn't have (ward, ITP, MR).
Yes, he has 1 less attack. But he should be taken in a unit with ~30-40 S6 attacks. You're not going to miss that 1 attack.

I honestly don't see the point of the prince.
If I want an elf for challenges, I'm taking Annoited with Silvered Armor, Dawn Stone and Sword of Anti-heroes (this load out for joining white lions)
If I'm joining swordmasters, I'd take fencers blades, golden scales, and crown of command. (WS10, -1 to be hit, 4+ ward, MR2, ITP, Stubborn).
If I want leadership, I'll make the arch mage, Lore Master or annointed the general and stick in the 15 point banner for Ld10.

Why would you take a prince? 4 S7 attacks? A Dragon? Both are very cost ineffective.

-Matt

The reason to take a prince is do something the rest of the army can't, reliably deal with 1+ armour saves. Which you need S7+ to do. Anything lower than that won't cut it. 4 S7 attacks from a prince, and 3 S7 from a noble, will make your opponent rush in with his expensive 1+ save units. It may not be cost effective, but, I'd say it has more of a place in an army that doesn't really care for psychology tests than the annointed. You say he gives a unit a 6+ ward, but I plan on being on a 3/4 ward once I hit combat anyway.

mrfantastical wrote:


Your post was very helpful, I just wanted to share my game play experience to show you a counter point.

Building on this:

I honestly dont see the reason why you would NOT take Seaguard. Yes they are the most expensive Infantry Core choice and they cant get a magic banner, however they fill the role of both archers and spearmen perfectly, and being only 2pts. more then archers for getting spears, light armor and a shield. Have been running a horde of around x40 the last few games and have had alot of success. Also is useful in regards to $ as its less models you have to buy

-I love Swordmasters and love the ability to put a cheap lvl. 1 caster in the unit and give the bladelord the Iron Curse Icon so when I successfully cast spells I double my ward save (both increase to 5+ with one spell, 4+ with two spells, ect.). I do feel that compared to the other choices though they still fall short in regards to overall effectivness since White Lions have stubborn, strength 6 attacks and a 3+ save vs missile weapons and Phoenix Guard are just plain nasty, especially with a caster in the unit with High Magic and another with Lore of Shadow.

 gmaleron wrote:
Building on this:

I honestly dont see the reason why you would NOT take Seaguard. Yes they are the most expensive Infantry Core choice and they cant get a magic banner, however they fill the role of both archers and spearmen perfectly, and being only 2pts. more then archers for getting spears, light armor and a shield. Have been running a horde of around x40 the last few games and have had alot of success. Also is useful in regards to $ as its less models you have to buy

-I love Swordmasters and love the ability to put a cheap lvl. 1 caster in the unit and give the bladelord the Iron Curse Icon so when I successfully cast spells I double my ward save (both increase to 5+ with one spell, 4+ with two spells, ect.). I do feel that compared to the other choices though they still fall short in regards to overall effectivness since White Lions have stubborn, strength 6 attacks and a 3+ save vs missile weapons and Phoenix Guard are just plain nasty, especially with a caster in the unit with High Magic and another with Lore of Shadow.

The problem with sea guard is that they are the most expensive infantry core, don't do either of the jobs the others do as well as the others do at that premium. I would rather take 12 archers for shooting than 10 sea guard. (Both cost 120 points) Or 22 spearmen vs 18 sea guard. (They both cost 198). Yes, I am aware that those are stupid units, and they both exist for cost comparison.

And, in my experience, Swordsmasters are better at grinding out infantry, whereas armour piercing white lions are better at hunting cavalry.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Building on this:

I honestly dont see the reason why you would NOT take Seaguard. Yes they are the most expensive Infantry Core choice and they cant get a magic banner, however they fill the role of both archers and spearmen perfectly, and being only 2pts. more then archers for getting spears, light armor and a shield. Have been running a horde of around x40 the last few games and have had alot of success. Also is useful in regards to $ as its less models you have to buy

The problem with sea guard is that they are the most expensive infantry core, don't do either of the jobs the others do as well as the others do at that premium. I would rather take 12 archers for shooting than 10 sea guard. (Both cost 120 points) Or 22 spearmen vs 18 sea guard. (They both cost 198). Yes, I am aware that those are stupid units, and they both exist for cost comparison.

It's why I don't touch them anymore. When I used to use them, they would either fight, or shoot. I never got to use them in both ways. So I was paying all the extra points for an archer unit, or a spear unit. Never for both.

 djones520 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Building on this:

I honestly dont see the reason why you would NOT take Seaguard. Yes they are the most expensive Infantry Core choice and they cant get a magic banner, however they fill the role of both archers and spearmen perfectly, and being only 2pts. more then archers for getting spears, light armor and a shield. Have been running a horde of around x40 the last few games and have had alot of success. Also is useful in regards to $ as its less models you have to buy

The problem with sea guard is that they are the most expensive infantry core, don't do either of the jobs the others do as well as the others do at that premium. I would rather take 12 archers for shooting than 10 sea guard. (Both cost 120 points) Or 22 spearmen vs 18 sea guard. (They both cost 198). Yes, I am aware that those are stupid units, and they both exist for cost comparison.

It's why I don't touch them anymore. When I used to use them, they would either fight, or shoot. I never got to use them in both ways. So I was paying all the extra points for an archer unit, or a spear unit. Never for both.

In the current book, they're for a defensive army. You stick the sea helm in there, and run a high level 4, and a shadow level 4. Your entire army is shooty, and when/if you need to fight, you reform the sea guard to a bus.

 djones520 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Building on this:

I honestly dont see the reason why you would NOT take Seaguard. Yes they are the most expensive Infantry Core choice and they cant get a magic banner, however they fill the role of both archers and spearmen perfectly, and being only 2pts. more then archers for getting spears, light armor and a shield. Have been running a horde of around x40 the last few games and have had alot of success. Also is useful in regards to $ as its less models you have to buy

The problem with sea guard is that they are the most expensive infantry core, don't do either of the jobs the others do as well as the others do at that premium. I would rather take 12 archers for shooting than 10 sea guard. (Both cost 120 points) Or 22 spearmen vs 18 sea guard. (They both cost 198). Yes, I am aware that those are stupid units, and they both exist for cost comparison.

It's why I don't touch them anymore. When I used to use them, they would either fight, or shoot. I never got to use them in both ways. So I was paying all the extra points for an archer unit, or a spear unit. Never for both.

Did you know beforehand? If not, then surely that shows that they are worthwhile? If you had only had spears on an occasion when you needed archers, no shots. Similarly, if it was a fighty occasion, archers suck. I would say that the straight price comparison is a false picture because you have to weigh it against raking both those units. So the comparison could be 24 archers and 22 spears or 38 Seaguard. More shots,better in cc, I'd rather be fighting the two small units.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The problem with sea guard is that they are the most expensive infantry core, don't do either of the jobs the others do as well as the others do at that premium.

That's only part of the truth though: Sea Guard also do the job the others don't. You only note that they get less shots than archers for example (assuming the same points) but you do not note that they get more shots than Spears.

To put it differently: They shoot worse and fight worse, yet they shoot better and fight better. If one is relevant, then the other side of the coin is as well.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The problem with sea guard is that they are the most expensive infantry core, don't do either of the jobs the others do as well as the others do at that premium.

That's only part of the truth though: Sea Guard also do the job the others don't. You only note that they get less shots than archers for example (assuming the same points) but you do not note that they get more shots than Spears.

To put it differently: They shoot worse and fight worse, yet they shoot better and fight better. If one is relevant, then the other side of the coin is as well.

They don't fight better until you have a unit of over 40 take a charge. Up until that point, they get the same number of attacks as archers, with the same weapon skill, and same strength.
Archers fighting in 3 ranks (4 ranks in horde) have made sea guard cost ineffective.

I have to agree with matt. With the prevalence of S4 attacks, a 6+ AS is not going to make the point differential back between the archers and the LSG.

Just like to say thanks for posting. As a learning he player I get a ton from you guys.

Tagony wrote:
Just like to say thanks for posting. As a learning he player I get a ton from you guys.

I'm glad I could be of help.

I run empire, so you may be practically immune to magic, but you're not immune to MY magic

TechMarine1 wrote:
I run empire, so you may be practically immune to magic, but you're not immune to MY magic

Depends on the list. If you're running the double banishment list, then you can't touch the BoTWD at range. And in combat, you either have to force the WS/I 10 spell off, or force the ASF spell off on an average magic phase.

If you run the shadow/life magic list, that is what Drain magic is for.

Niteware wrote:
I am aware that PG have a 4++, but my exerience is tha I do 7 - 9 wounds and take 1 - 4. PG run away after second round of combat.

No snark intended - can i ask against which army as an opponent ?

I play predominantly against skaven as my primary opponent - a block of 18 in 6x3 (with the the new book) tends to hold pretty well. I can't remember the last time PG broke on the second round of combat, or even the third.

More curious than anything.


Kind of keeping on topic... i'm in the boat of peeps that like sea guard. With the new book, i've found that a unit of 30 that can shoot (granted, against T3), can do some good damage before engaging, and then fight every bit as well as typical spearmen. The point premium i've found is usually worth it. YMMV, but that's what i've found. I"m also not a tourney player for fantasy, so there's that, though the crew i play with are pretty much tourney level of competitive (most of us are former warmachine national tourney level placing players - kind of hard to just switch off that mentality).

I also fall into the camp impressed with the Anointed, but not alone on his own merits. The granted 6++ that can be made better, the MR2, and the ItP all play into it, with help from a mage (arch or baby, as long as they are running high magic). Yes pound for pound a Prince is more killy, and a Loremaster is more utilitarian. Just about nothing is more defensive or buff oriented with a bit of killy still included for good measure. If you have that in mind, he's a great lord choice. If you're looking for more killy, or more non-defense oriented utility, then yeah, there's better places to look, for sure.


The biggest issue i have with the loremaster is that its a bit jack of all trades for a huge pricetag. The sig spells are great from many angles, absolutely, but in my meta, it's not hard for a level 4 to negate most of what he's going to do (at least, the clutch spells), and he's stealing power dice from my high magic / lore of life / lore of shadow tossing mages (let alone points in the list). I've been fairly happy with him when i've used him, but the optimal word there is fairly. The anointed i've found to be a combined arms superstar when taken with other factors in the book / list, etc. Usually the biggest concern i have with the annointed is to run him "light" (meaning, crown of command, and maybe an armor save increasing item like the dragonhelm, etc), or go full bore to make him more dangerous.

Again, mileage may vary. He fits my playstyle incredibly well.

-- haight