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 Zweischneid wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:


We were promised Squats...

Who promised Squats?

Way back when 2nd ed was new and I found out Samus was a girl for the first time we got a promise of a new squat codex.

We waited...

And waited...

And then the Tyranids ate them.

 Kain wrote:


Way back when 2nd ed was new and I found out Samus was a girl for the first time we got a promise of a new squat codex.

Dude. That is an old grudge to carry. Chances are that 99.98989% of all miniature and board game companies from that year haven't survived till today. You get the lucky shot being in the hobby for the one company that did. Be happy for what you have!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Icculus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm hoping they just roll it into the SM codex. That's what they should have done with DA's and BA's at the very least, and SW's as well. You can fit everything about the Templars, rules-wise, in 2-3 pages as an addendum to a C:SM list (same with the other Loyalist chapters too really...), they don't need their own book. If they must be their own separate army, well, that's what Forgeworld really should be for.

Yeah there is some sense to this...however, being that DA and BA and SW have their own books, I think BT should be represented as well. If for 7th edition they decide to roll them all together in to one book and discuss the various rules there, that would make sense.

Until that point, I think Black Templars deserve their book. They are so much more different than standard marines.

I think there are people that have voted to see black templars get rolled in to the SM codex because they think all the SM chapters should be listed in one codex. I can also see Black Templars getting updated as one more codex in your way to your armies update.

I just don't feel they shouldv'e gained one to begin with, they aren't even a founding chapter!

Thats what makes them so unique! They are the epitome of the changes that were taking place after the Horus Heresy. They said "we don't need the codex astartes, we know what's right!" They dont use tac squads, they dont use sergeants. You could probably take a couple pages and summarize all of their rules in to the SM codex, or you could build on this unique chapter and make something great. They are probably one of the most unique chapters out there, second maybe to only the space wolves.

My argument is that if there are going to be any other codexes out there for space marine chapters other than the vanilla marines then Black Templar deserve a spot.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Kain wrote:


Way back when 2nd ed was new and I found out Samus was a girl for the first time we got a promise of a new squat codex.

Dude. That is an old grudge to carry. Chances are that 99.98989% of all miniature and board game companies from that year haven't survived till today. You get the lucky shot being in the hobby for the one company that did. Be happy for what you have!

I was in elementary school back then. The squats mean rather little to me other than the blurb on them I saw when I bought that old nid codex. Back when Zoanthropes still had legs and we rolled on the "see how hard you cry" table.

Black Templars are probably one of the most fun codices out there right now for the sheer amount of builds you can do with so few units.
I hate to see threads like this because all this ends up as "This doesn't deserve a codex" or "Roll everyone into everyone and make a book of Ultramarines". And its probably the same nay sayers that said DA were so bland they'd definitely get rolled into the next marine codex. Let's see what happens.

I just don't see the point in making LESS Space Marine Codexes. If there are 100 Space Marine Players out there that I'll play against in the coming year, I sure as hell hope they'd spread themselves between as many different Codexes as possible. Given how prevalent Space Marines are, 40K needs MORE Space Marine Codexes, if anything, to liven up the game. Merging them would only kill the diversity and make the game more bland.

Besides, it doesn't matter how many "Codexes" they release. GW is a miniature company. Dark Eldar alone saw some 30 new releases in miniatures. That is more than ALL 6th Edition Codexes so far (not counting Eldar) taken together. Would it be different if they had released 5 different Dark Eldar Codexes with that binge of miniatures instead of just 1? Probably not. It's a miniatures game, not a "Codexes"-game.

Codex blood ravens.

I can see it now, squads of librarians who can all cast independently.

Oh and stolen relics from everyone, and humorous accents.

I agree, GW should expand the SM range seen as it's so popular. I personally hope BT stay independent, they're so different and unique (as mentioned) and Helsreach/Grimaldus is awesome. That's why I set this poll up, to gauge what everyone else thought, and at last check integration seems to be the (albeit slight) majority :(

There are multiple reasons for this. GW has shown that it has had issues updating and attending to each faction in turn, and each extra marine thingy makes that take even longer.

The differences between each marine book often are less than what you'd get within many other books, to be frank, they're not in any way truly unique factions and they largely amount to FoC or wargear swaprs.

The ones GW could truly go wild with and make all sorts of really cool and interesting stuff, the Chaos marines, GW has seen fit to hamfist into one book and treat 9 entire traitor Legions and innumerable post heresy renegades as one book no more worthy of differentiation than single loyalist marine chapters.

On top of all that, it puts an overfocus on marines, making 40k more and more bland with everything being "T4 3+Sv" everywhere and the genetically engineered super soldier becomes the baseline average instead of the exceptional.

culsandar wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
BACK TO SUPPLIMENTAL CODEXES YE WHERE THEE BELONGS!


I also want Blood Angels to go back to supplimentals.

I think niether will occur, but seriously feth the BT codex.

Where is this coming from? Were you touched by a member of the clergy as a child?

Its doubtful they will get rolled in, but with this most recent release of Eldar and Iyanden, if it contains army material, Templars could very well follow suit.

No I've just been playing for more than a day. BT never needed thier own codex, and I liked playing my BA out of the supplimental. DA's arguably have been done a great disservice by thier last coded and either need to be reimagined or roll into a supplimental too.
Supplimental allow the core codex to be updated frequently and background players to get cool new models every few years without the OMFG MAT WARD WROTE ANOTHER SM LOVE ORGY! Codex jumping.
Supplimental codexes ruled the ring before GW became an evil empire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh right by disservice in the DA book I meant the last one. I haven't played 6e at all.

Dont worry Crusaders, we will get our book. Apparently this is causing some people emotional distress. Awesome for us, unfortunate for them.

The Black Templars are completely non-codex compliant and contain very little of the structures that make up typical Astartes forces, having told Guilliman to take his book and go feth himself with it. If any chapter deserves their own codex, it's them.

 Kain wrote:
The Black Templars are completely non-codex compliant and contain very little of the structures that make up typical Astartes forces, having told Guilliman to take his book and go feth himself with it. If any chapter deserves their own codex, it's them.

Except...how does that translate to the battlefield and a tabletop force? It really doesn't. Plus, we've got plenty examples of chapters that are no more adherent in C:SM, such as the Iron Hands who effectively are made up of multiple mini chapters and Dreadnought leaders and the like, and they still use the normal codex.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The Black Templars are completely non-codex compliant and contain very little of the structures that make up typical Astartes forces, having told Guilliman to take his book and go feth himself with it. If any chapter deserves their own codex, it's them.

Except...how does that translate to the battlefield and a tabletop force? It really doesn't. Plus, we've got plenty examples of chapters that are no more adherent in C:SM, such as the Iron Hands who effectively are made up of multiple mini chapters and Dreadnought leaders and the like, and they still use the normal codex.

The templars make much greater usage of land raiders than Comdex chapters, merge their scouts into a very rough tac squad equivalent, virtually everyone is armed for close combat, marines are deployed in hordes of angry space Germans rather than squads, they outright ignore enemy suppression fire unlike less insane chapters, scouts have to carry around devastator weapons because the battle brothers can't be fethed with jobs that preclude them from getting into stabby chop range, and no psykers none of the time.

 Kain wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The Black Templars are completely non-codex compliant and contain very little of the structures that make up typical Astartes forces, having told Guilliman to take his book and go feth himself with it. If any chapter deserves their own codex, it's them.

Except...how does that translate to the battlefield and a tabletop force? It really doesn't. Plus, we've got plenty examples of chapters that are no more adherent in C:SM, such as the Iron Hands who effectively are made up of multiple mini chapters and Dreadnought leaders and the like, and they still use the normal codex.

The templars make much greater usage of land raiders than Comdex chapters, merge their scouts into a very rough tac squad equivalent, virtually everyone is armed for close combat, marines are deployed in hordes of angry space Germans rather than squads, they outright ignore enemy suppression fire unlike less insane chapters, scouts have to carry around devastator weapons because the battle brothers can't be fethed with jobs that preclude them from getting into stabby chop range, and no psykers none of the time.

None of which really *requires* its own codex and is all roughly approximatable (aside from merging of scout and tac squads) as is in the current C:SM, and could all be fit in as a a sub-section in 2 pages, 3 tops including characters. It still shares 80%+ of the same stats, weapons, wargear, vehicles, rules, units, etc with Codex: Space Marines.

If they *really* need their own sublist, that's what Forgeworld is and really should be for. No SM chapter is so unique that it needs its own unique codex on the same level as Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Imperial Guard, etc barring the Grey Knights.

 Kain wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The Black Templars are completely non-codex compliant and contain very little of the structures that make up typical Astartes forces, having told Guilliman to take his book and go feth himself with it. If any chapter deserves their own codex, it's them.

Except...how does that translate to the battlefield and a tabletop force? It really doesn't. Plus, we've got plenty examples of chapters that are no more adherent in C:SM, such as the Iron Hands who effectively are made up of multiple mini chapters and Dreadnought leaders and the like, and they still use the normal codex.

The templars make much greater usage of land raiders than Comdex chapters, merge their scouts into a very rough tac squad equivalent, virtually everyone is armed for close combat, marines are deployed in hordes of angry space Germans rather than squads, they outright ignore enemy suppression fire unlike less insane chapters, scouts have to carry around devastator weapons because the battle brothers can't be fethed with jobs that preclude them from getting into stabby chop range, and no psykers none of the time.

Sure you're not thinking of World Eaters?

No psykers none of the time = Psykers all of the time.

Personally, the more I look at it, I wish GW would just make the SM codex fairly big, with rules that allow you to make your own various chapters as well as giving examples of such rules in action (such as an Ultramarine, Black Templar, Blood Angel, and Dark Angel example page) and then use the rest of the book for fluff. The issue is balancing it, of course, but by making the marines much more modular like that, it allows multiple marine chapters to come to life with their own rules, rather than highlighting the big four and then forcing long stretches of time between their updates, while denying it to things like SoB, orks, and tyranids, who could use some codex love

As I've said before, the problem is the FoC. It's the way everybody veiws the codex system.

The space marine codex should outline the basic forms of all the varient space marine armour types and vehicles.

Scout, Marine (tactical, assault, devistator, veteran), Terminator.

Rhino Hull (and variants), Raider Hull (and variants).

Speeder Hull (and variants), Dreadnaught (and variants).

Thats the space marine army. The only special thing that's not a marine is Servitors... and wolves I guess.

So you list these things out and then have a page or two for each chapter.

So the Blood Angels chapter page would say something like "Sanguinary Guard (Veterans armed with blah blah blah) Specialist"

And then you have a rule for Specialist, meaning that it can only be used when using Blood Angel Characters or a Captain with the Mark of Blood Angels.

All marines are the same. Black Templars have absolutly nothing special that makes them deserve their own codex.

They can be summed up with

"Tactical Marines 4-9 plus sarge... may take up to 10 additional scouts added to this unit" and "When this unit take a wound from an enemy shooting attack

and FAILS ITS MORAL TEST it instead passes the test and may move so many inches forward or whatever". I don't see why Templars run forwards when shot.

You'd think that the Khorne Berzerkers would have an improved version of this rule.

As soon as you provide a toolbox, everyone will mathhammer it, and the result will be 1-3 uberchapters and a bunch of options where you can waste your points. Just pick up a random codex, pick one of the generic HQs and count the number of possible combinations. Then count the number of combinations you actually see used in games. Ever seen a big mek on a bike?

I really think the C:SM does it best. You pick up a chapter leader, and your army transforms some of its rules to fit with that chapter. If rumors are correct, Eldar now pretty much do the same.

That said, I don't think BT should be rolled into the normal codex. Unlike BA or DA, it actually feels different to play against black templars, because the slight alteration of many units change their roles much.

 Jidmah wrote:
Ever seen a big mek on a bike?

Nope. Becasue there is no model for it. And it's a stupid choice to take over SAG or KKF.

Don't get me wrong... I take Big Meks in mega armour, but only in 2 FoC and he's attached to a unit of lootaz in a battlewagon (SaP ftw!).

Putting a Mek on a bike is like... taking Torquemada and no Henchmen. It has nothing to do with variety, just common sense.

 Vaktathi wrote:
There are multiple reasons for this. GW has shown that it has had issues updating and attending to each faction in turn, and each extra marine thingy makes that take even longer.

6th Edition has pretty much disproven that point.

And it is worth remembering that not all updates are equal. Dark Eldar or Necrons in 6th edition were - each on their own - larger releases with more miniatures than the Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Space Wolves releases taken together. Space Marine books don't take up much room in the miniature pipeline. That is the point. They are quick and easy releases for GW. Cutting them wouldn't mean faster or more frequent updates for the other Codexes. It would only mean less updates for 40K in the same time period.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Icculus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm hoping they just roll it into the SM codex. That's what they should have done with DA's and BA's at the very least, and SW's as well. You can fit everything about the Templars, rules-wise, in 2-3 pages as an addendum to a C:SM list (same with the other Loyalist chapters too really...), they don't need their own book. If they must be their own separate army, well, that's what Forgeworld really should be for.

Yeah there is some sense to this...however, being that DA and BA and SW have their own books, I think BT should be represented as well. If for 7th edition they decide to roll them all together in to one book and discuss the various rules there, that would make sense.

Until that point, I think Black Templars deserve their book. They are so much more different than standard marines.

I think there are people that have voted to see black templars get rolled in to the SM codex because they think all the SM chapters should be listed in one codex. I can also see Black Templars getting updated as one more codex in your way to your armies update.

I just don't feel they shouldv'e gained one to begin with, they aren't even a founding chapter!

This is probably the seventh time I've said this: there are no "first founding Chapters". Chapters didn't exist until the second founding. The Black Templars, Crimson Fists and every other second founding Chapter (which includes the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and the Salamanders) were all part of the Legiones Astartes; attributing the deeds of, for example, the Imperial Fists Legion to the Imperial Fists Chapter alone is incorrect, as the Crimson Fists, Black Templars and Soul Drinkers were all part of the Legion. It's not until the third founding that Chapters that took no part in the Heresy are created. Thus, Codex: Black Templars is, for the purpouses of this argument, just as justified as Codex: Blood Angels or Codex: Space Wolves.

 DeffDred wrote:

"Tactical Marines 4-9 plus sarge... may take up to 10 additional scouts added to this unit" and "When this unit take a wound from an enemy shooting attack

and FAILS ITS MORAL TEST it instead passes the test and may move so many inches forward or whatever". I don't see why Templars run forwards when shot.

You'd think that the Khorne Berzerkers would have an improved version of this rule.

Considering you don't even know that there's no Black Templars Sergeants outside Command Squads I have difficulty taking you seriously.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Icculus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm hoping they just roll it into the SM codex. That's what they should have done with DA's and BA's at the very least, and SW's as well. You can fit everything about the Templars, rules-wise, in 2-3 pages as an addendum to a C:SM list (same with the other Loyalist chapters too really...), they don't need their own book. If they must be their own separate army, well, that's what Forgeworld really should be for.

Yeah there is some sense to this...however, being that DA and BA and SW have their own books, I think BT should be represented as well. If for 7th edition they decide to roll them all together in to one book and discuss the various rules there, that would make sense.

Until that point, I think Black Templars deserve their book. They are so much more different than standard marines.

I think there are people that have voted to see black templars get rolled in to the SM codex because they think all the SM chapters should be listed in one codex. I can also see Black Templars getting updated as one more codex in your way to your armies update.

I just don't feel they shouldv'e gained one to begin with, they aren't even a founding chapter!

This is probably the seventh time I've said this: there are no "first founding Chapters". Chapters didn't exist until the second founding. The Black Templars, Crimson Fists and every other second founding Chapter (which includes the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and the Salamanders) were all part of the Legiones Astartes; attributing the deeds of, for example, the Imperial Fists Legion to the Imperial Fists Chapter alone is incorrect, as the Crimson Fists, Black Templars and Soul Drinkers were all part of the Legion. It's not until the third founding that Chapters that took no part in the Heresy are created. Thus, Codex: Black Templars is, for the purpouses of this argument, just as justified as Codex: Blood Angels or Codex: Space Wolves.

So he put Chapter instead of Legion. The Blood Angles and Space Wolves and Ultramarines were part of the FIRST founding. Which is what I'm assuming he was refering to.

The Black Templars were never a Legion. They're just Blood Angels with black armour and no jump packs.

They hate psykers? No big deal... so do I. So when my Blood Angels aren't using Mephiston I guess I'm playing Black Templars?

On a side note... the Soul Drinkers are a second founding chapter? I hate those books with a passion that boarders on fanatical. Those books are worse than anything Matt Ward can come up with.

 DeffDred wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Icculus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm hoping they just roll it into the SM codex. That's what they should have done with DA's and BA's at the very least, and SW's as well. You can fit everything about the Templars, rules-wise, in 2-3 pages as an addendum to a C:SM list (same with the other Loyalist chapters too really...), they don't need their own book. If they must be their own separate army, well, that's what Forgeworld really should be for.

Yeah there is some sense to this...however, being that DA and BA and SW have their own books, I think BT should be represented as well. If for 7th edition they decide to roll them all together in to one book and discuss the various rules there, that would make sense.

Until that point, I think Black Templars deserve their book. They are so much more different than standard marines.

I think there are people that have voted to see black templars get rolled in to the SM codex because they think all the SM chapters should be listed in one codex. I can also see Black Templars getting updated as one more codex in your way to your armies update.

I just don't feel they shouldv'e gained one to begin with, they aren't even a founding chapter!

This is probably the seventh time I've said this: there are no "first founding Chapters". Chapters didn't exist until the second founding. The Black Templars, Crimson Fists and every other second founding Chapter (which includes the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and the Salamanders) were all part of the Legiones Astartes; attributing the deeds of, for example, the Imperial Fists Legion to the Imperial Fists Chapter alone is incorrect, as the Crimson Fists, Black Templars and Soul Drinkers were all part of the Legion. It's not until the third founding that Chapters that took no part in the Heresy are created. Thus, Codex: Black Templars is, for the purpouses of this argument, just as justified as Codex: Blood Angels or Codex: Space Wolves.

So he put Chapter instead of Legion. The Blood Angles and Space Wolves and Ultramarines were part of the FIRST founding. Which is what I'm assuming he was refering to.

The Black Templars were never a Legion. They're just Blood Angels with black armour and no jump packs.

They hate psykers? No big deal... so do I. So when my Blood Angels aren't using Mephiston I guess I'm playing Black Templars?

On a side note... the Soul Drinkers are a second founding chapter? I hate those books with a passion that boarders on fanatical. Those books are worse than anything Matt Ward can come up with.

The Black Templars, and every other Second Founding Chapter (which includes the Imperial Fists, Salamanders and the Ultramarines) are all just as much a part of their respective Legions as the other. The Imperial Fists Chapter was created during the Second Founding, just as the Black Templars and Crimson Fists. The Imperial Fists Chapter doesn't have a longer history than the Crimson Fists, for example. They were all in the same Legion.

As an example, let's pretend that the Imperial Fists pre-heresy Legion was called the Über Legion. Once the Heresy resolves, they split into the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars and the Soul Drinkers. Why would any of these Chapters have a greater claim to status and recognition than any of the others? It's not until the Third Founding that Chapters are created whose history does not include the events of the Horus Heresy.

 DeffDred wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Ever seen a big mek on a bike?

Nope. Becasue there is no model for it. And it's a stupid choice to take over SAG or KKF.

Don't get me wrong... I take Big Meks in mega armour, but only in 2 FoC and he's attached to a unit of lootaz in a battlewagon (SaP ftw!).

Putting a Mek on a bike is like... taking Torquemada and no Henchmen. It has nothing to do with variety, just common sense.

Exactly my point. There is no model for Warboss on a Bike either (except for the Sardsnark model from Forgeworld), but you see self-build versions everywhere. However, putting a bigmek on a bike, even though very fluffy for a KoS army, is a total waste of points and HQ slots, since it doesn't do anything special or good at all.

Pretty much the same would happen if GW provided a big marine-chapter-toolbox. Guess how many people would pick Stubborn, Fearless in Combat or Red Thirst if you had to trade away Combat Tactics for it?

Heres another way to put it Walrus.....Sigusmund and the entire IF contintingent that would soon become the Black Templars allfought in the Siege of Terra. Girlyman and the Imperial Navy were going to start their own heresy party and fire on IF if they didnt split and follow the Codex. Dorn took one for the team and split the Legion, and Siggy took his boys and continued the Crusade.

BT. Siege of Terra. First Founding can suck it.

Fine, founding legion

Bloody nitpickers.

But I don't believe if you are from a Founding Legion you don't need much of something new, especially when other races could pull off what specialty you are doing without it being more marine.

Am I the only person who missed the obvious point - Black Templars are no longer listed as a 40K army on the armies list on the GW website? Sisters still are and all they have a weak WD codex, but Black Templars are just not there. It's as if they had been written out and removed from the game. I think this is no mistake and BT will not get a new codex and will likely be the key chapter in a SM codex add on giving special rules for chapters which do not differ enough to justify a separate codex.

Isengard wrote:
Am I the only person who missed the obvious point - Black Templars are no longer listed as a 40K army on the armies list on the GW website? Sisters still are and all they have a weak WD codex, but Black Templars are just not there. It's as if they had been written out and removed from the game. I think this is no mistake and BT will not get a new codex and will likely be the key chapter in a SM codex add on giving special rules for chapters which do not differ enough to justify a separate codex.

They are in a sub-heading of Space Marines... same as Dark Angels were before their 6th Edition book and Blood Angels before their 5th Edition Book.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1400013&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

I think I'll actually put that in my sig, it's brought up every single time a discussion like this is held.