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Icculus wrote: Blood Angels were a white dwarf supplement when the BT codex came out. two years later they got their first codex, then in 2010 they got their 5th edition update.
You are right, they have had years to update, and it is about time they did so.
In 3rd ed I believe that BA had 4 special characters (Dante, Corbulo, Mephiston, Tycho) maybe Lemartes, can't remember. They also had 2 unique units (Furioso Dread and Death Company) the Baal predator was introduced at the later date
So, the Blood angels received at least 2 new special characters, two new dreadnoughts, a new elite unit, ASMs as troops, fast rhinos, sanguinary priests, storm ravens, possibly Baal predators an enhanced special rules since the Black Templars have received their own unique codex.
So you are quite right, the Blood Angels have gotten a lot in updates since the templars came out.
Helbrecht, Grimaldus, and EC. They can bring back Draco, the Durandal Dread, and add TANKRED.
10 Initiate/10 Neophyte blobs.
Righteous/Unmatched Zeal moves.
Sword Brethern, with options for TDA and skill upgrades. These skills confer to HQs when used as a Command Squad. Tank Hunter confers to a gun emplacement. Dual heavy weapons for TDA.
Melta bombs on all jump infantry.
PotMS and Blessed Hull. Dedicated LRCs. LRCs were previously
exclusive to BT.
Cheap Typhoons with an emphasis on missile spam. We lost the Whirlwind for some dumb reason.
Holy Hand Grenade.
Im possibly missing some things as I dont have the book handy, and some Marines may have gained a few of these things since then. But I cannot emphasize this enough: its a nine year old book. The rest of the Mahreens have been updated since then. These are the things that made them stand out in 4th edition, and moreso than BA and DA at the time. Any further arguments towards their uniqueness should be directed towards GWs failure to update them during the last DECADE.
Icculus wrote: Blood Angels were a white dwarf supplement when the BT codex came out.two years later they got their first codex, then in 2010 they got their 5th edition update.
No to the first part, no to the red part and a resounding math failure encompasses the 3rd despite its factual correctness.
Spoiler:
All right kiddies gather round and Uncle Auston will tell you a story. The moral is don't say thinks that are blatantly false.
In 1996 the Blood Angels received their first Codex along with the Dark Angels.
1996 That was 2nd Edition kiddies when sustained fire was king and a Predator with twin linked assault cannons fired 18 STR 9 shots. And the Black Templar were still 2 years away from becoming an army centered around thier one special character: the Emperors Champion. Coincidentally 1998 is the year the first Codex: Blood Angels was published as a supplement to C:SM. At this time BA had 6 special characters and a limited FOC selection from C:SM.
1998 Don't worry kiddies it was still only 3rd edition the Blood Angels had two codexes and the first Black Templar army list was still 2 years away.
The Dark days for the foot slogging crusaders finally ended in 2000 with the publication of the first BT army list in Codex: Armageddon.
2000 Finally the Black Templar had a book to call thier ow...share with Xenos.
But fear not FIVE years later the judicious crusaders of foot slogging assault would have their day in the sun!
2005 A mere 7 years after the second Blood Angels Codex. Thier...only codex to date.
Two years later the White Dwarf supplemental codex was circulated by the evil GW Studio gutting the Emperor's Brave Crimson Heroes.
2007 At this point maybe some of you were wondering what Special Characters that codex might include; well children 5 of the 6 same characters (and models) from 9 years earlier.
Three years later our valiant skyborne warriors received a much deserved update...or so we thought. Then it was published.
2010 /Necron Brofist
And the New 40K was born. With stupid flyers.
Just in case you were wondering 2010 was the 4th codex to feature the blood angels and included the first new units and characters in 12 years. It also includes the same 5 characters from 1998 to Present as the core of the the army only one of which has received a facelift in 15 years.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
None of the arguments advanced so far by BT players or those that want to roll up the codex really amount to a hill of beans as far as GW is concerned.
GW DOES NOT CARE:
How many special units codex y has compared to codex z
Whether or not the BT have their own playstyle
etc etc etc posted in this thread
All that matters is how well they think the BT Codex is helping them sell models. GW knows exactly how many BT books they have sold and exactly how many BT specific character models they have sold. From this data they will decide to keep the BT in their own codex or roll them up.
By some objective criterion the BT could be the best designed codex ever created but if GW does not think it is selling models it would be in danger of being discontinued.
I think its hard to predict because the only thing anyone here knows is the anecdotal evidence of how popular they are in there local area. Here they are nonexistent, elsewhere I have no idea. I would not be surprised if GW rolled them up or completely refurbished them.
Icculus wrote: Blood Angels were a white dwarf supplement when the BT codex came out.two years later they got their first codex, then in 2010 they got their 5th edition update.
No to the first part, no to the red part and a resounding math failure encompasses the 3rd despite its factual correctness.
Just in case you were wondering 2010 was the 4th codex to feature the blood angels and included the first new units and characters in 12 years. It also includes the same 5 characters from 1998 to Present as the core of the the army only one of which has received a facelift in 15 years.
I did know about all those, however I may have got the number of special characters wrong. My point was that before 5th BA were just space marines with a few new units, not so different to BT.
To pour some gas on the fire, the announcement of the Armageddon Game planed for 2014 names Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Salamanders as playable Marine Chapters, but not Black Templars, even though they had one of the biggest forces on Armageddon during the second war.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: To pour some gas on the fire, the announcement of the Armageddon Game planed for 2014 names Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Salamanders as playable Marine Chapters, but not Black Templars, even though they had one of the biggest forces on Armageddon during the second war.
Maybe its a boon to have Salamanders and Blood Angels there....
We don't need more UM games.
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
Icculus wrote: Blood Angels were a white dwarf supplement when the BT codex came out. two years later they got their first codex, then in 2010 they got their 5th edition update.
You are right, they have had years to update, and it is about time they did so.
I would hope after the Sisters and the flyers debacles that GW had learned better than to use WD to update armies.
Jidmah wrote: To pour some gas on the fire, the announcement of the Armageddon Game planed for 2014 names Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Salamanders as playable Marine Chapters, but not Black Templars, even though they had one of the biggest forces on Armageddon during the second war.
The 3 you name were the main in the SECOND war, BT were primarily in the THIRD war, so maybe that's why?
"The galaxy knelt before us once, and it will do so again" "'Anton, you could not outsmart that rock'
'I'm still smarter than the Imperial Guard'"
Jidmah wrote: To pour some gas on the fire, the announcement of the Armageddon Game planed for 2014 names Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Salamanders as playable Marine Chapters, but not Black Templars, even though they had one of the biggest forces on Armageddon during the second war.
I dont think this has to do anything to do with it, even when I think that the Templars will be put back into the C:SM.
Jidmah wrote: To pour some gas on the fire, the announcement of the Armageddon Game planed for 2014 names Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Salamanders as playable Marine Chapters, but not Black Templars, even though they had one of the biggest forces on Armageddon during the second war.
Has a lot more to do with it being an new take on the 1992 Battle for Armageddon which is based on the 2nd War.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
I could see them making Black Templar a supplemental to Codex: Space Marines.
Take away Librarians and Devastators, add in the Emperor's Champion as a choice much like Techmarines are for Dark Angels (don't take up an HQ slot, can't be the warlord).
And then drink in those sweet sweet tears when they can't take Furious Charge / Tank Hunters as veteran upgrades anymore. Or 2 CML on 5man Terminators, or really cheap TMLs, or POTMS... >.> (though those things don't really make up for the lack of toys / over priced things they buy, but there will be tears when they lose those things and all the other 3rd/4th edition toys they still get to use that other marine books dont).
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
Crazyterran wrote: I could see them making Black Templar a supplemental to Codex: Space Marines.
Take away Librarians and Devastators, add in the Emperor's Champion as a choice much like Techmarines are for Dark Angels (don't take up an HQ slot, can't be the warlord).
And then drink in those sweet sweet tears when they can't take Furious Charge / Tank Hunters as veteran upgrades anymore. Or 2 CML on 5man Terminators, or really cheap TMLs, or POTMS... >.> (though those things don't really make up for the lack of toys / over priced things they buy, but there will be tears when they lose those things and all the other 3rd/4th edition toys they still get to use that other marine books dont).
...and the Crusader Squads. And Righteous Zeal. And no Sergeants. And no separate Scout Squads. But sure, keep being petty if that's your cup of tea.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Crazyterran wrote: I could see them making Black Templar a supplemental to Codex: Space Marines.
Take away Librarians and Devastators, add in the Emperor's Champion as a choice much like Techmarines are for Dark Angels (don't take up an HQ slot, can't be the warlord).
And then drink in those sweet sweet tears when they can't take Furious Charge / Tank Hunters as veteran upgrades anymore. Or 2 CML on 5man Terminators, or really cheap TMLs, or POTMS... >.> (though those things don't really make up for the lack of toys / over priced things they buy, but there will be tears when they lose those things and all the other 3rd/4th edition toys they still get to use that other marine books dont).
...and the Crusader Squads. And Righteous Zeal. And no Sergeants. And no separate Scout Squads. But sure, keep being petty if that's your cup of tea.
I don't think he's being petty. He's being realistic. The BT are outdated... we can all agree on that. When they get updated (see: Codex: Space Marines) they will lose all of the outdated rules they have.
If some people are so fond of supplements... lets cut their dex into a bunch of supplements :.
Codex UM: main dex => basic tactical marine.
You want more? buy the fast assault supplement, and/or the elite supplement and/or the heavy support supplement or a one click deal of all 4 at a "discount" of 0 %. YAY?
Now if we can return to serious mode?
Any update updates the rules to 6th ed.
There is no benefit for GW gained with less BT. But they could aim at a SM release around GDUK. Playing safe along those 6th ed releases.
BT are rather stuffed " in Reserve " , like SoB.
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
Crazyterran wrote: I could see them making Black Templar a supplemental to Codex: Space Marines.
Take away Librarians and Devastators, add in the Emperor's Champion as a choice much like Techmarines are for Dark Angels (don't take up an HQ slot, can't be the warlord).
And then drink in those sweet sweet tears when they can't take Furious Charge / Tank Hunters as veteran upgrades anymore. Or 2 CML on 5man Terminators, or really cheap TMLs, or POTMS... >.> (though those things don't really make up for the lack of toys / over priced things they buy, but there will be tears when they lose those things and all the other 3rd/4th edition toys they still get to use that other marine books dont).
...and the Crusader Squads. And Righteous Zeal. And no Sergeants. And no separate Scout Squads. But sure, keep being petty if that's your cup of tea.
I don't think he's being petty. He's being realistic. The BT are outdated... we can all agree on that. When they get updated (see: Codex: Space Marines) they will lose all of the outdated rules they have.
Wait, the "outdated" stuff that is the core of how BT are different in-game from Vanilla? My point was that simply including the Emperor's Champion and calling it a day would remove most of what makes BT play as BT, not to mention that it'd invalidate Helbrecht and Grimaldus.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Crazyterran wrote: I could see them making Black Templar a supplemental to Codex: Space Marines.
Take away Librarians and Devastators, add in the Emperor's Champion as a choice much like Techmarines are for Dark Angels (don't take up an HQ slot, can't be the warlord).
And then drink in those sweet sweet tears when they can't take Furious Charge / Tank Hunters as veteran upgrades anymore. Or 2 CML on 5man Terminators, or really cheap TMLs, or POTMS... >.> (though those things don't really make up for the lack of toys / over priced things they buy, but there will be tears when they lose those things and all the other 3rd/4th edition toys they still get to use that other marine books dont).
...and the Crusader Squads. And Righteous Zeal. And no Sergeants. And no separate Scout Squads. But sure, keep being petty if that's your cup of tea.
I don't think he's being petty. He's being realistic. The BT are outdated... we can all agree on that. When they get updated (see: Codex: Space Marines) they will lose all of the outdated rules they have.
Wait, the "outdated" stuff that is the core of how BT are different in-game from Vanilla? My point was that simply including the Emperor's Champion and calling it a day would remove most of what makes BT play as BT, not to mention that it'd invalidate Helbrecht and Grimaldus.
If only there were some way to communicate the unique nature of the BT in side the framework of C:SM...
Oh...right. Right bunch of cross-covered snowflakes you are.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
People that want supplemental codexes obviously were not around for the third edition mini-codexes which were reviled and hated by almost everyone. Anyway, GW has gone the opposite direction with expensive hardback codexes.
JWhex wrote: People that want supplemental codexes obviously were not around for the third edition mini-codexes which were reviled and hated by almost everyone. Anyway, GW has gone the opposite direction with expensive hardback codexes.
Everyone? I know quite a few who still have fond memories of the Blood Axe supplement, the craftworld eldar, and several others.
Crazyterran wrote: I could see them making Black Templar a supplemental to Codex: Space Marines.
Take away Librarians and Devastators, add in the Emperor's Champion as a choice much like Techmarines are for Dark Angels (don't take up an HQ slot, can't be the warlord).
And then drink in those sweet sweet tears when they can't take Furious Charge / Tank Hunters as veteran upgrades anymore. Or 2 CML on 5man Terminators, or really cheap TMLs, or POTMS... >.> (though those things don't really make up for the lack of toys / over priced things they buy, but there will be tears when they lose those things and all the other 3rd/4th edition toys they still get to use that other marine books dont).
...and the Crusader Squads. And Righteous Zeal. And no Sergeants. And no separate Scout Squads. But sure, keep being petty if that's your cup of tea.
I don't think he's being petty. He's being realistic. The BT are outdated... we can all agree on that. When they get updated (see: Codex: Space Marines) they will lose all of the outdated rules they have.
Wait, the "outdated" stuff that is the core of how BT are different in-game from Vanilla? My point was that simply including the Emperor's Champion and calling it a day would remove most of what makes BT play as BT, not to mention that it'd invalidate Helbrecht and Grimaldus.
If they put the Black Templar as a supplemental, they would obviously have the Emperor's Champion, Helbrecht, Grimaldus, and any other unique Black Templar things, while disallowing units from Codex: Space Marines that do not fit into the Black Templar theme. Hell, if they just rolled the Black Templar into Codex: Space Marines, they could simply say:
"Any army that Includes an Emperor's Champion may take Scout and Tactical Squads as one units, with x limits, and replace Combat Tactics for Righteous Zeal. In addition, any army including an Emperor's Champion may not take Psykers of any kind (Librarians, allied models with psychic powers), or Devastator Squads."
Righteous Zeal would be the replacement for Combat Tactics, Crusader Squads are essentially the Black Templar version of Veteran Squads, and since every other marine book lost the other toys I mentioned, it only makes sense that Black Templar would follow suit.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
Crazyterran wrote: I could see them making Black Templar a supplemental to Codex: Space Marines.
Take away Librarians and Devastators, add in the Emperor's Champion as a choice much like Techmarines are for Dark Angels (don't take up an HQ slot, can't be the warlord).
And then drink in those sweet sweet tears when they can't take Furious Charge / Tank Hunters as veteran upgrades anymore. Or 2 CML on 5man Terminators, or really cheap TMLs, or POTMS... >.> (though those things don't really make up for the lack of toys / over priced things they buy, but there will be tears when they lose those things and all the other 3rd/4th edition toys they still get to use that other marine books dont).
...and the Crusader Squads. And Righteous Zeal. And no Sergeants. And no separate Scout Squads. But sure, keep being petty if that's your cup of tea.
I don't think he's being petty. He's being realistic. The BT are outdated... we can all agree on that. When they get updated (see: Codex: Space Marines) they will lose all of the outdated rules they have.
Wait, the "outdated" stuff that is the core of how BT are different in-game from Vanilla? My point was that simply including the Emperor's Champion and calling it a day would remove most of what makes BT play as BT, not to mention that it'd invalidate Helbrecht and Grimaldus.
If they put the Black Templar as a supplemental, they would obviously have the Emperor's Champion, Helbrecht, Grimaldus, and any other unique Black Templar things, while disallowing units from Codex: Space Marines that do not fit into the Black Templar theme. Hell, if they just rolled the Black Templar into Codex: Space Marines, they could simply say:
"Any army that Includes an Emperor's Champion may take Scout and Tactical Squads as one units, with x limits, and replace Combat Tactics for Righteous Zeal. In addition, any army including an Emperor's Champion may not take Psykers of any kind (Librarians, allied models with psychic powers), or Devastator Squads."
Righteous Zeal would be the replacement for Combat Tactics, Crusader Squads are essentially the Black Templar version of Veteran Squads, and since every other marine book lost the other toys I mentioned, it only makes sense that Black Templar would follow suit.
All doable, which is why stopping at the Emperor's Champion and calling it a day would be silly.
JWhex wrote: People that want supplemental codexes obviously were not around for the third edition mini-codexes which were reviled and hated by almost everyone. Anyway, GW has gone the opposite direction with expensive hardback codexes.
Everyone? I know quite a few who still have fond memories of the Blood Axe supplement, the craftworld eldar, and several others.
I dont think there ever was a Blood Axe supplemental Codex in 3rd edition or later. Maybe your friend's memories are faulty.
JWhex wrote: People that want supplemental codexes obviously were not around for the third edition mini-codexes which were reviled and hated by almost everyone. Anyway, GW has gone the opposite direction with expensive hardback codexes.
Everyone? I know quite a few who still have fond memories of the Blood Axe supplement, the craftworld eldar, and several others.
I dont think there ever was a Blood Axe supplemental Codex in 3rd edition or later. Maybe your friend's memories are faulty.
I see you have confused the words coveted with reviled and loved with hated, a simple oversight I'm sure. In fact the supplemental codexes are amongst the best loved books of all time: Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Cityfight, Armageddon, Assassins,Eye of Terror, Craftworld Eldar, and Catachans. But you know how GW just follows the will of the people, of course they went away because WE didn't like them and we all CLAMORED for one codex to rule them all!
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
JWhex wrote: People that want supplemental codexes obviously were not around for the third edition mini-codexes which were reviled and hated by almost everyone. Anyway, GW has gone the opposite direction with expensive hardback codexes.
Everyone? I know quite a few who still have fond memories of the Blood Axe supplement, the craftworld eldar, and several others.
I dont think there ever was a Blood Axe supplemental Codex in 3rd edition or later. Maybe your friend's memories are faulty.
I see you have confused the words coveted with reviled and loved with hated, a simple oversight I'm sure. In fact the supplemental codexes are amongst the best loved books of all time: Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Cityfight, Armageddon, Assassins,Eye of Terror, Craftworld Eldar, and Catachans. But you know how GW just follows the will of the people, of course they went away because WE didn't like them and we all CLAMORED for one codex to rule them all!
Hard to tell if you are being sarcastic or dont know wtf you are talking about. I specifically said mini-dexes for third edition which were hated. I dont have to rely on my friends memories either. The supplements that replaced the mini-codexes are very different from the pamphlets labelled codexes that first came out in third edition, those sucked big time.
Cityfight was not a mini-codex it was a supplementary set of rules for playing in city terrain, clearly you are confused and mixing things up. If you think the Dark Angel mini-codex was loved then I know for a fact you were not playing the game during 3rd edition.
I think people are too obsessed about Codex books, Codex-supplement-books, whatever.
Codexes aren't bottle-neck in GW's production. Black Library is publishing some 10 books a month. GW is throwing out the White Dwarf, the whole new Digital Products line with one or two new things each month and the Codexes.
If they'd put a few more people into the "Codex-writer-team" they could publish a Codex or two a month easy. Codex books are easy to make.
The true measure of things are the miniatures.
Comparing the first 6 Months of 2012 with the first 6 Months of 2013 showcases that quite nicely. Both had about the same amount of new kits and miniatures released for Warhammer 40K. But 2012 January-to-June had 0 Codex books. 2013 January-to-June had 4.
People really ought to start looking at the miniatures released, and at how great the discrepancies are. The Dark Eldar release alone - with some 30 new kits - was larger than Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Dark Angels together. Hell, excluding the Dark Vengeance box, Dark Eldar was larger than the entirety of 40K 6th Edition so far (though Eldar are gonna tip 6th over the edge).
Releases are not equal. Codexes are not a good measure of things. GW is doing multiple Space Marine books precisely because they are "low-effort fillers" they can plug into the niches. Taking them away won't translate into more and/or other Codex books elsewhere, nor into more miniatures (which are pretty consistent). It would just mean more waiting and less releases overall.
JWhex wrote: People that want supplemental codexes obviously were not around for the third edition mini-codexes which were reviled and hated by almost everyone. Anyway, GW has gone the opposite direction with expensive hardback codexes.
Everyone? I know quite a few who still have fond memories of the Blood Axe supplement, the craftworld eldar, and several others.
I dont think there ever was a Blood Axe supplemental Codex in 3rd edition or later. Maybe your friend's memories are faulty.
It was a Third Edition Chapter Approved list. US edition 289
JWhex wrote: None of the arguments advanced so far by BT players or those that want to roll up the codex really amount to a hill of beans as far as GW is concerned.
GW DOES NOT CARE:
How many special units codex y has compared to codex z
Whether or not the BT have their own playstyle
etc etc etc posted in this thread
All that matters is how well they think the BT Codex is helping them sell models. GW knows exactly how many BT books they have sold and exactly how many BT specific character models they have sold. From this data they will decide to keep the BT in their own codex or roll them up.
By some objective criterion the BT could be the best designed codex ever created but if GW does not think it is selling models it would be in danger of being discontinued.
I think its hard to predict because the only thing anyone here knows is the anecdotal evidence of how popular they are in there local area. Here they are nonexistent, elsewhere I have no idea. I would not be surprised if GW rolled them up or completely refurbished them.
I don't think it matters about whether they're selling right now. GW can just make a massive walker, do a couple of finecasts and then a single plastic set and make them sell like free ice creams.
BLACK TEMPLARS - 2000 
0RkZ - 2000 
NIDZ - WIP 
STEEL LEGION - WIP 
