Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes yes, I hear that all the time. What I actually want to hear is reasons WHY they'll become a revolution beyond "we can maybe print toy soldiers!".

I'm not THAT old, but I figured there were plenty of good solid arguments as to why personal computing devices would be a revolution beyond the skeptics.

Where as 3D printing I hear a lot of "this will revolutionalise" and "think of all the possibilities", but when asked "such as?" I get very few realistic responses beyond people telling me I lack vision

I do still think computer controlled manufacturing, which has been around for a while and of which 3D printing is one of many types, is currently revolutionalising actual industry and I totally agree it has the potential to change a lot of the products we receive from manufacturers, but I'm not seeing the big thing about personal 3D printing at home.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yes yes, I hear that all the time. What I actually want to hear is reasons WHY they'll become a revolution beyond "we can maybe print toy soldiers!".

I'm not THAT old, but I figured there were plenty of good solid arguments as to why personal computing devices would be a revolution beyond the skeptics.

Where as 3D printing I hear a lot of "this will revolutionalise" and "think of all the possibilities", but when asked "such as?" I get very few realistic responses beyond people telling me I lack vision

Well you may be hearing it but your NOT getting the point of it, otherwise you would not be demanding your answer now. Spelling it out, unpredictable uses are likely to emerge once a large number of people have ready access to the tool. That is what happened with computers, and fire.

But I'm pretty sure even in the early days of computers people were saying it would revolutionise how we deal with information and in the early days of the Internet people were talking about how it would revolutionise how we share information. I'm sure there were skeptics saying we didn't need to revolutionalise those things, but the ideas were there.

3D printing isn't a new technology, it's been around for 20 or more years and is widely used for rapid prototyping. I've used it for printing an intake plenum which I then got a mould off to make a carbon fibre part.

We are increasingly becoming dependant on devices that are too complex or made from specific materials that are too hard to 3D print in the near future, so forgive me if I'm skeptical.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But I'm pretty sure even in the early days of computers people were saying it would revolutionise how we deal with information and in the early days of the Internet people were talking about how it would revolutionise how we share information.

Actually, IIRC, in the early days of both of those things, general opinion was that they really had no practical use.

We are increasingly becoming dependant on devices that are too complex or made from specific materials that are too hard to 3D print in the near future, ...

As 3d printers get more advanced, particularly once they are capable of dealing with multiple materials, or when someone comes up with a more comprehensibly adaptable plastic formulation, that will change. The Star Trek replicator is still a ways off, but is at least somewhat plausible...

See also secretaries and clerk typists.

I know that these things are capable of printing 3D models in full color, but how exactly does it work? Is the medium paper, or something else? Sorry, but I am always super behind in technology and am kind of confused as to what these things are capable of.

Most 3D printers work in plastic, although there are a few different types... some use extruded plastic to build up layers, some use liquid resin and set it with lasers, some use a powder that is melted in layers.

 Xeriapt wrote:
Im somewhat skeptical about how good a quality this printed "pro paintjob" would be.

Well there are the Mcor IRIS printers being used by Staples in Europe now:
http://www.mcortechnologies.com/3d-printers/iris/
Uses paper layering and standard inkjet printing to achieve its affect.

From the 3D printed objects I have handled, figures printed at 25 micron would be like a fig with a bad humid day primer job. Not horrible from 3 feet away, but would look like gak up close.

As for botObjects' printer. It seems awfully vague in details. Their site isn't really showing much in the way of actual objects. A lot of tech sites are openly dubious that this thing is real.

If it is real, would it kill GW? Not really. Others have laid out excellent points as to why. Also remember, just because you have a 3D printer, doesn't mean you have the 3D objects to print. You will still need people to design the figures. There will be plenty of kids doing figs and throwing them up on thingavers, but don't always expect any consistency or quality. A good example is just with this current hoopla over the 3D printed gun design. People downloading it found there are errors in the design which don't let you print it and if you don't have knowledge of 3D printing, you can't fix them. You will still need to pay a profession sculptor for those figures to print and don't expect them to charge you only $10 for a fig. Probably a lot more since you can just print off multiple copies of their one design.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Where as 3D printing I hear a lot of "this will revolutionalise" and "think of all the possibilities", but when asked "such as?" I get very few realistic responses beyond people telling me I lack vision

3D printing is already revolutionizing the way engineering prototypes are made. As an engineering student, I had the opportunity to build the same artifact thrice using different construction means. The first was basic subtractive prototyping out of a plastic block using hand tools, CNC mills, and other machine shop implements such as lathes - took us over a month. The second time, we used sheet metal - three weeks. The third, we used 3D printing and fiberglass composites - one and a half weeks, of which one week was just waiting for our parts to print.

I also have friends in architecture who are now squealing with delight at the ability to use this to print their scale model building designs, rather than spending weeks building them by hand from toothpicks, plasticard, and wood (hey, sounds like terrain-making to me... cough cough. 3D printed buildings for 40k much?)

We can already 3D print chocolate.
NASA is also funding a company to 3D print pizzas for them: http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/21/4350948/nasa-funding-3d-food-printer-pizza

silent25 has also mentioned this, but we now have 3D printed guns, which can change the geopolitical landscape because you can arm a rebel militia with firearms without needing to actually "get" them.

Here are 4 real-life possibilities for you. Need more?

When you can scan a sprue in and then print a new one out. THEN you might have the death knell. I'd say people love assembling and hand painting more then just printing out the pre posed and pre painted figure.

JWhex wrote:
The question posed should be more general anyway, why not, will this kill Privateer? The question is always framed in response to GW when in fact this technology really could be a boon or bane to any particular line of miniatures manufacturer depending on how they react.

This actually got me to thinking that it may well be metal/resin producers who suffer most from cheap 3d printing. Injection molded plastic kits will likely always be superior and/or cheaper than getting your own printer and taking the time/dedication to create your own army. But scans of clunky metal figures can be cleaned up in CAD, modified to pose desired, and printed out ready to paint. You'll have a light-weight plastic model instead of a miscast metal or resin sculpt that is difficult to convert without power tools.

Yep. PP should fear 3d printing more than GW. Garage operations like Iron Wind Metals should be wetting the bed over this stuff.

 insaniak wrote:
Most 3D printers work in plastic, although there are a few different types... some use extruded plastic to build up layers, some use liquid resin and set it with lasers, some use a powder that is melted in layers.

My favorite is the one that uses living embryonic stem cells as "ink" and prints them in arrays of microbubbles suspended in a matrix of colloids.

Seriously, can you print me out a new kidney!

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Likewise people could not see a reason for having printers at home and not going to the local photocopier shop to make their copies.

Once technology has sufficiently matured people will find obvious and obscure reasons to utilize it.

We may see the obvious to us obscure to everybody else application in miniature wargaming as models and terrain, others may print toys for their kids, parts for machinery or tools, maybe covers for items like USB sticks, who knows we will find out when the technology is mature enough.

Okay, but then you're not talking about the 3DP we have now, you're talking about some hypothetical future technology (likely not far future, but still future). Copying stuff at the newsagents made sense when printers were expensive, limited and clunky, and we didn't have one at home growing up till the price came down and the utility went up to the point where owning one made sense. I'm not disputing that 3DP has got great possibilities, simply that having a home printer will be more than a gimmick for the average person, at least for the next few years.

As a general piece of advice to posters in this thread, consider the possibility that not everyone questioning the current personal utility of the technology is a progress-hating Neanderthal who no like head hurty science stuff.

Indeed I am referring to the next few years technology.

At present we have printers that can do everything we talk about, great detail, multicoloured prints at really small scale but theya re big and expensive, these will become small and ready for home use in the near future, but not now, kickstarter has a few relatively cheap 3D printers that are theoretically capable of great detail, but as far as I know none has been delivered yet to have testaments from independent sources.

The key in 3D printers is not what they can or will be able to do, but how the shoftware will support them, if there are easy and cheap software that offer good possibilities they will skyrocket.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Indeed I am referring to the next few years technology.

At present we have printers that can do everything we talk about, great detail, multicoloured prints at really small scale but theya re big and expensive, these will become small and ready for home use in the near future, but not now, kickstarter has a few relatively cheap 3D printers that are theoretically capable of great detail, but as far as I know none has been delivered yet to have testaments from independent sources.

The key in 3D printers is not what they can or will be able to do, but how the shoftware will support them, if there are easy and cheap software that offer good possibilities they will skyrocket.

"Great detail" is not used in the context of 28mm-scale wargaming. I work with industrial 3D printers and I'll again restate that they are nowhere near good enough, even when printed at the highest resolution.

A good example, however, of good software support is this Kickstarter: www.kickstarter.com/projects/pirate3d/the-buccaneer-the-3d-printer-that-everyone-can-use?ref=home_popular

Wireless app, with in-built "make-a-shape-and-print" type of software that makes it very easy for commercial users.

Since we already have companies that print their prototypes at 28mm scale, like mantic, warzone resurrection who actually send out 3D printed models to a few people and other companies that print components to have consistency between sculptors I think the great detail clocks well with current high end printer technology for 28mm gaming and 15mm.

insaniak wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But I'm pretty sure even in the early days of computers people were saying it would revolutionise how we deal with information and in the early days of the Internet people were talking about how it would revolutionise how we share information.

Actually, IIRC, in the early days of both of those things, general opinion was that they really had no practical use.

How early are we talking? I remember going to a science exhibit in primary school where they talked about the WWW and how it would revolutionalise the way we share data. I've always known people were skeptical about the fact computers would be needed in every day life, but my impression was that there was just as equally as much understanding that they could actually become something. Just look at the Space Odyssey series.

As 3d printers get more advanced, particularly once they are capable of dealing with multiple materials, or when someone comes up with a more comprehensibly adaptable plastic formulation, that will change. The Star Trek replicator is still a ways off, but is at least somewhat plausible...

If home 3D printers get to the point where a single printer can simultaneously handle plastic, fibre composites, steel, aluminium, copper, etc all at a range of resolutions and print speeds all in the one device in the home, then yes, that will be revolutionary. I think we're a long way off that, even in conventional machining you don't use the same machines for all things.

Enigwolf wrote:3D printing is already revolutionizing the way engineering prototypes are made. As an engineering student, I had the opportunity to build the same artifact thrice using different construction means. The first was basic subtractive prototyping out of a plastic block using hand tools, CNC mills, and other machine shop implements such as lathes - took us over a month. The second time, we used sheet metal - three weeks. The third, we used 3D printing and fiberglass composites - one and a half weeks, of which one week was just waiting for our parts to print.

I don't disagree, if you read through my posts I have already said computer controlled processing is already revolutionalising industry, I specifically stated I think it will change the products we can buy in the coming years. My skepticism comes from the idea of home use 3D printing. I have an engineering degree too, ya know And I have used 3D printing to make moulds for parts for cars as well However, that's hardly a "typical home use".

Yes, you can 3D print things, but that doesn't mean you are going to 3D print things in the home, which is the point I'm skeptical on. You can 2d print a novel, but no one does, we go out and buy it. You can 3D print a gun, but there are vastly better alternatives for gun manufacture sitting in many peoples' garages. Architects can 3D print models instead of building them, but that sounds more like having a printer at work than at home (like, I don't own a 2D printer, but I do a lot of 2D printing at work). Saying we can 3D print chocolate is a bit deceptive, if we could 3D print food, it'd solve world hunger, but that's not what we are talking about, you still have to get the chocolate and food and then the 3D printer just prints it in to a design for you.

None of this is screaming "zomg everyone is going to have a 3D printer in their home within 20 years". Call me when consumer level 3D printers can print me a smartphone or a new fan for my computer (bearings and all) or similar.

Well when DARPA (IIRC) threw money on the 3D printing concept back then it was an idea they had to print replacement parts on the field and to get outside funding they pressed the commercial idea of printing replacement parts and other items at home, it was far fetched back then as it is now because some materials need other processes, but the result is the present era 3D printers, how much forward can they go in realizing their initial concept, I do not know, I can hardly see them doing vulcanization or steel moulding, but for a failed project they have done quite well themselves and have found a niche to fill, they will get better cheaper and eventually find their place in the households but I do not think they will materialize their initial mission of constructing replacement parts for machinery.

I think that, as a few of you are saying, it is likely that 3D printing will evolve in the next decade or so into being usable for making 28mm miniatures in the home.

The price, however may be a strange factor.

Depending on the technology involved, a 3D printer could cost a good £150 (GBP) to £300, and after adding the cost of materials, it may take quite a hefty amount of printing to overall save money, and may not actually do so.

Furthermore, if companies like GW sell (or probably give you limited use) templates, that could easily jack the price up too high.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Yes, you can 3D print things, but that doesn't mean you are going to 3D print things in the home, which is the point I'm skeptical on. You can 2d print a novel, but no one does, we go out and buy it. You can 3D print a gun, but there are vastly better alternatives for gun manufacture sitting in many peoples' garages. Architects can 3D print models instead of building them, but that sounds more like having a printer at work than at home (like, I don't own a 2D printer, but I do a lot of 2D printing at work). Saying we can 3D print chocolate is a bit deceptive, if we could 3D print food, it'd solve world hunger, but that's not what we are talking about, you still have to get the chocolate and food and then the 3D printer just prints it in to a design for you.

None of this is screaming "zomg everyone is going to have a 3D printer in their home within 20 years". Call me when consumer level 3D printers can print me a smartphone or a new fan for my computer (bearings and all) or similar.

I concede and admit to your point that I don't see everyone going "zomg" about it either. Same way how everyone's been comparing whether Google Glasses will become another "funky" thing like Segways did. But then again, we don't know what we don't know, right? The most I can imagine for home use would be 3D printing groceries. My girlfriend would not be thrilled for that.

@AllSeeingSkink

I don't think you are seeing the point, the point is that 3D printing is coming into the price range for hobbyist and small companies,

it can revolutionize the way miniatures are designed, and the speed. (In designs from dream forge and new warzone, you can see that it is all cad design).

GW will send that machine a C and D letter and claim they invented the HHHobby.

The facebook account got deleted because GW has a bunch of chones in their social media department that have no idea what they are doing. Case in point is to look at every avenue they have approached on the tech.
Webpage= gak.
Forum= gak
Chonebook account= gak
social interaction on their webpage= gak
Information flow = gak

Stop rallying to their defense on every little thing. They pull gak moves on a general basis and have no idea of their product because the business hand doesn't talk to the real world.
They have issues that they don't deal with and live in a fantasy world where business= fun and it is not really the case.

On a serious note, if they were smart, they would make their own at a 30 micron level, digital plans and stamp a GW sticker on it and start selling their stuff by the million, along with GW's patented pox paste 3d gel, to get on the bus and reap something other then more customer relations gems.

 Enigwolf wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Where as 3D printing I hear a lot of "this will revolutionalise" and "think of all the possibilities", but when asked "such as?" I get very few realistic responses beyond people telling me I lack vision

3D printing is already revolutionizing the way engineering prototypes are made. As an engineering student, I had the opportunity to build the same artifact thrice using different construction means. The first was basic subtractive prototyping out of a plastic block using hand tools, CNC mills, and other machine shop implements such as lathes - took us over a month. The second time, we used sheet metal - three weeks. The third, we used 3D printing and fiberglass composites - one and a half weeks, of which one week was just waiting for our parts to print.

I also have friends in architecture who are now squealing with delight at the ability to use this to print their scale model building designs, rather than spending weeks building them by hand from toothpicks, plasticard, and wood (hey, sounds like terrain-making to me... cough cough. 3D printed buildings for 40k much?)

We can already 3D print chocolate.
NASA is also funding a company to 3D print pizzas for them: http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/21/4350948/nasa-funding-3d-food-printer-pizza

silent25 has also mentioned this, but we now have 3D printed guns, which can change the geopolitical landscape because you can arm a rebel militia with firearms without needing to actually "get" them.

Here are 4 real-life possibilities for you. Need more?

3D printing has been around for decades (at least 30 years now). None of that timeline has changed. Maybe it is a bit faster and QuickParts can get things to me in a couple of days...

I'm still not sure what the avg Joe would use one for one of the arguments I always see is, "blah, blah, blah, laser printers..." Inkjets still outsell laser printers for household use and a laser is still more expensive to buy than an inkjet, but let's not nullify their argument so quickly; there is more utility for an avg house wrt paper printer than part printer.

Sure, let's wave a magic wand and say we have the ability to buy a 3D printer that makes parts as good as injection molded PEI. What do most people do with it?

Not make toy soldiers (hell, you could buy a 3D printer for around the cost of a couple of armies, and why haven't I seen that...)

Replace a broken printer cog?

Make a new phone case?

All of those things require:
1) Downloading somebody else's design (and let's hope it works well with your printer and is the exact thing you want)
OR
2) You learn some ME modeling skills (which if you could do that, why aren't you working as a designer...?)

Yeah, this is much ado about nothing.

Linux is free and works pretty well and has pretty much everything (for free) that OSX and Windows has, so why isn't this the year of the Linux desktop? Mostly, because Ubuntu is still too hard for the avg Joe to mess with. 3D printers maybe free, but they still will be too difficult for most people to mess with. There are thousands of people, tens of millions of dollars and many, many companies that are trying to take a free bit of tech and supplant for pay OSes and it hasn't happened in the past 30 years, which means, for realz, 2014 is the year of the Linux desktop.

Jehan-reznor wrote:@AllSeeingSkink

I don't think you are seeing the point, the point is that 3D printing is coming into the price range for hobbyist and small companies,

it can revolutionize the way miniatures are designed, and the speed. (In designs from dream forge and new warzone, you can see that it is all cad design).

I believe the Helldrake was a CAD model too. You can see it in the level/type of detail, the exploded parts drawing on the assembly instructions, and the way the sprues were made.

Grot 6 wrote:GW will send that machine a C and D letter and claim they invented the HHHobby.

The facebook account got deleted because GW has a bunch of chones in their social media department that have no idea what they are doing. Case in point is to look at every avenue they have approached on the tech.
Webpage= gak.
Forum= gak
Chonebook account= gak
social interaction on their webpage= gak
Information flow = gak

Stop rallying to their defense on every little thing. They pull gak moves on a general basis and have no idea of their product because the business hand doesn't talk to the real world.
They have issues that they don't deal with and live in a fantasy world where business= fun and it is not really the case.

On a serious note, if they were smart, they would make their own at a 30 micron level, digital plans and stamp a GW sticker on it and start selling their stuff by the million, along with GW's patented pox paste 3d gel, to get on the bus and reap something other then more customer relations gems.

I don't think it's fair to over-generalize GW that much. ForgeWorld is a GW subsidiary but is hugely interactive with their fanbase on Facebook, and are known to have designers themselves responding to email questions about rules. Hell, I emailed them once and they told me when the Elysian update (which turned out to be IA3E2) was coming. Quite a world of difference from the "mainstream GW".

evancich wrote:
3D printing has been around for decades (at least 30 years now). None of that timeline has changed. Maybe it is a bit faster and QuickParts can get things to me in a couple of days...

I'm still not sure what the avg Joe would use one for one of the arguments I always see is, "blah, blah, blah, laser printers..." Inkjets still outsell laser printers for household use and a laser is still more expensive to buy than an inkjet, but let's not nullify their argument so quickly; there is more utility for an avg house wrt paper printer than part printer.

Sure, let's wave a magic wand and say we have the ability to buy a 3D printer that makes parts as good as injection molded PEI. What do most people do with it?

Not make toy soldiers (hell, you could buy a 3D printer for around the cost of a couple of armies, and why haven't I seen that...)

Replace a broken printer cog?

Make a new phone case?

All of those things require:
1) Downloading somebody else's design (and let's hope it works well with your printer and is the exact thing you want)
OR
2) You learn some ME modeling skills (which if you could do that, why aren't you working as a designer...?)

Yeah, this is much ado about nothing.

Well, first of all you have to understand that 3D printing has evolved mechanically-speaking since the first iteration of it. From the outside, everyone only sees the scale and print resolution - unfortunately, it's not such as simple task. You can't just scale everything up to make it print bigger parts, the vibrations will cause inaccuracies in the printing. That's why it's taken the technology so long to advance, because 3D printing is a very mechanically complex process. We also have a LOT of different ways to 3D print now, just like how we have inkjets and laser printers (which are both still considered "printers"). Some are simple extrusions, others print a block with the plastic and a support material that you soak in base solution to dissolve.

You yourself have touched on the reason why they aren't common-place yet - technical skill. Up to now, you still need a 3D design to print something - once someone gets wiser and starts building a proper interface and consumer engagement (such as here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pirate3d/the-buccaneer-the-3d-printer-that-everyone-can-use?ref=home_popular). I strongly recommend you look at this Kickstarter and watch the video - they touch a lot upon user experience, which is what's missing from virtually every other 3D printer out there. The moment you have something like Instagram, where you can easily recreate what would otherwise have taken professional skill, it will see more mass-market adoption.

 Bellicist wrote:
Look at this 3D-Printer

Tea; Earl Grey; Hot.







No? This device is useless to me.

 AustonT wrote:

 Bellicist wrote:
Look at this 3D-Printer

Tea; Earl Grey; Hot.







No? This device is useless to me.

Or this - Coffee; Black; Now.

I don't know if it's been said but I think people are looking atit the wrong way.

I don't see people making bitz and such so much as moulds of bitz and such.

Why 3d print a single sholderpad when I can make a mould of 5?

 DeffDred wrote:
I don't know if it's been said but I think people are looking atit the wrong way.

I don't see people making bitz and such so much as moulds of bitz and such.

Why 3d print a single sholderpad when I can make a mould of 5?

For the moment, the 3D printer is more useful for prototyping. You design the original in a CAD program, print it out, and use that print to make your moulds.

3D printers for actual ongoing production will require them to be much better and faster than they are now, but will likely happen eventually.

Even when 3D printers are mainstream GW can still survive.
They can just profit from the licensing or video games, movies, books, etc for the warhammer franchises.
In addition to this they can market the hobby side more. Its great to print up a whole army in full color but what about when nobody is around to play? People will still want to build and paint miniatures so they can concentrate on brushes, paint system, etc.

 insaniak wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:
I don't know if it's been said but I think people are looking atit the wrong way.

I don't see people making bitz and such so much as moulds of bitz and such.

Why 3d print a single sholderpad when I can make a mould of 5?

For the moment, the 3D printer is more useful for prototyping. You design the original in a CAD program, print it out, and use that print to make your moulds.

3D printers for actual ongoing production will require them to be much better and faster than they are now, but will likely happen eventually.

So it basically creates the first step of making the thing that would make more things? I see.

Could they be used to make little one-off things like a park bench or chair? A room full of cubicles with computers and office chairs would make for some cool terrain.