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Edited by AgeOfEgos

 Enigwolf wrote:

Sigvatr wrote: I don't care for GW making huge losses at that point.

So you're basically saying that... You don't care if GW goes out of business, and both Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k die?

The brands would immediately be bought by competitors, so I don't worry that much, plus with the stuff that GW recently released, the need in our clubs to buy GW stuff has gone down again by a long shot and all armies have some sort of proxy by now, aka models produced by other companies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

775B53 wrote:

and furthermore, the first post claiming that these machines will print pro-painted miniatures is laughable. Then again, considering the majority of you field spam armies of grey plastic I suppose you wouldn't know much about painting anyway.

Most armies are TT standard, not pro-painted, anyway.

The biggest production change I could see is this replacing GW’s plastic injection mold systems way down the line. The current most practical thing would be replacing low production kits like Finecast and mono-pose blisters. This means every kit can be plastic and solo models can be solid pieces. If each production factory had, say 100-500 3D printers and GW could get the printers to push out models fast enough, Finecast would be over with and blister packs would all be mono-piece models in full dynamic 3D. Something imposible to do with the current mold system.

However, the big modeling change I see is an influx of different models. Creating models would be as simple as creating the 3D design, something that could be done in weeks to months, and pressing print. We could see 10,000 model limited runs every few weeks. Instead of the current, seven total new kits per army every 3 years. Or better yet, each year, blister pack model poses change to a new pose. Do you want the old pose where the Lictor is crouched or the new one where he is running? Next years Lictor will be jumping! All one piece, no glue required.

If someone from GW were to learn what this "3-D Printer" is, the process would probably go like this:

Step 1: 3D Printer? Isn't 3D that stuff in the movie theaters?
Step 2: Well it seems that's not what 3D printing is, lets me get on my dialup internet.
Step 3: Now that I'm online with my AOL browser, I need to find out what 3D Printing is, let me go on AskJeeves.com
Step 4: SWEET MOTHER OF MERCY THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
Step 5: Cease and Desist letters to anything remotely affiliated with 3D printing.
Step 6: Today, Gamesworkshop has announced its intention to destroy 3D printing. This is great news.

In order to make these things viable you are going to need 3 things.

1) A couple of grand for a 3D printer.
2) An amazing Digital 3d artist. ( you cant just copy and past an image from google)
3) A controlling interest in a company that makes green stuff, so you can smooth out an entire armys worth of models.

These things sprung up years ago in the RC community. So people could manufacturer spare parts for RC cars. There are even YouTube vid's and Construction drawing to build your own 3d printers. Think it worked out about £2000 if you built your own.

The problem is Having some one good enough at 3d digital rendering and modeling to produce models of a high standard. And that Mech warrior pictured is one of the better 3d Models I have seen but still not perfect.

If it was Commercially viable or a threat to GW and FW, don't you think they would already be using them? But because of the quality issues they are not viable. I mean if someone wants to spend a month modeling and printing off a set of shoulder pads to then spend hours smoothing them over with green stuff, then so be it.

The only thing that a 3D printer would be good at is scenery making. You could print off entire wall sections, and because its a large model you will at least be able to clean it up better. Or don't and give it that Rendered look.

3D Printers are inevitably going to become simple-to-use and affordable, and I'm not talking decades from now but rather 5-6 years. Modern computer tech works that way.

 Harriticus wrote:

Step 1: 3D Printer? Isn't 3D that stuff in the movie theaters?
Step 2: Well it seems that's not what 3D printing is, lets me get on my dialup internet.
Step 3: Now that I'm online with my AOL browser, I need to find out what 3D Printing is, let me go on AskJeeves.com
Step 4: SWEET MOTHER OF MERCY THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
Step 5: Cease and Desist letters to anything remotely affiliated with 3D printing.
Step 6: Today, Gamesworkshop has announced its intention to destroy 3D printing. This is great news.

Awesome. This format works for pretty much every GW debacle:

Step 1: Space Marine in a book title?! We own that!
Step 2: It appears to be some sort of charitable project. You know what that means...
Step 3: Attempt to crush it with a Cease and Desist letter!
Step 4: Apparently people are mad about this. They are even pointing out there are books from 30s that use Space Marine in the title.
Step 5: Without our permission!? How dare they! Where are they saying this?
Step 6: On the facebooks. Don't worry though. I already destroyed the facebooks. It's all shut down now.

 Harriticus wrote:
If someone from GW were to learn what this "3-D Printer" is, the process would probably go like this:

Step 1: 3D Printer? Isn't 3D that stuff in the movie theaters?
Step 2: Well it seems that's not what 3D printing is, lets me get on my dialup internet.
Step 3: Now that I'm online with my AOL browser, I need to find out what 3D Printing is, let me go on AskJeeves.com
Step 4: SWEET MOTHER OF MERCY THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
Step 5: Cease and Desist letters to anything remotely affiliated with 3D printing.
Step 6: Today, Games Workshop has announced its intention to destroy 3D printing. This is great news.

Sounds about right

But you forgot:

Step 7: If GW fails to exterminate 3D printing, GW shall claim to own all 3D printers. This is logical and fair.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:

Step 1: 3D Printer? Isn't 3D that stuff in the movie theaters?
Step 2: Well it seems that's not what 3D printing is, lets me get on my dialup internet.
Step 3: Now that I'm online with my AOL browser, I need to find out what 3D Printing is, let me go on AskJeeves.com
Step 4: SWEET MOTHER OF MERCY THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
Step 5: Cease and Desist letters to anything remotely affiliated with 3D printing.
Step 6: Today, Gamesworkshop has announced its intention to destroy 3D printing. This is great news.

Awesome. This format works for pretty much every GW debacle:

Step 1: Space Marine in a book title?! We own that!
Step 2: It appears to be some sort of charitable project. You know what that means...
Step 3: Attempt to crush it with a Cease and Desist letter!
Step 4: Apparently people are mad about this. They are even pointing out there are books from 30s that use Space Marine in the title.
Step 5: Without our permission!? How dare they! Where are they saying this?
Step 6: On the facebooks. Don't worry though. I already destroyed the facebooks. It's all shut down now.

This made my day.

3d printing won't put them out of business.

GW not adjusting to the new retail paradigm is what will put them out of business.

Trying to stop something once the technology exists is like stuffing troubles BACK into Pandora's box. Can't be done. The djinni is out of the bottle.

They have to adjust or go under. This is the evolution of the free market.

I agree that it is unrealistic to think that 3D printing will put GW out of business. If 3D printer would put GW out of business then GW would already be out of business due to private resin molds and forgeries. GW will be able to out produce any private 3D print operation by moth cost and time. It is all a matter of how long it take GW to embrace 3D printing and how they embrace it. Like I said earlier, if GW fully or partially embraced 3D printing then we could see low demand kits getting a new pose every year. This would drive up sales like no one has ever seen.

Partial embrace of 3D printing by GW:
1) Create the 3D model
2) Create an internal skeleton and points of actuation
3) New pose every so often so people keep buying the new model
4) Profit

Full embrace of 3D printing by GW:
1) Create the 3D model
2) Create an internal skeleton and points of actuation
3) Create an online program where people could go to the GW site and pose the model themselves, and then have a GW printer print it out
4) Get a personal, custom built, mono-piece, model in the mail and it's an official GW model
5) Even more profit than you could ever think of

But this can only be done if you can produce a 3D printed model at around the same cost as a resin mold model. The main cost in that is the mold creation and the machinery you use in the production line along with design costs. 3D printing, as I described above, would have a relatively cheap design cost, no mold cost, but a much higher production cost. The question is, can you make the production cost low enough to compete with resin mold production?

 cerbrus2 wrote:
In order to make these things viable you are going to need 3 things.

1) A couple of grand for a 3D printer.
2) An amazing Digital 3d artist. ( you cant just copy and past an image from google)
3) A controlling interest in a company that makes green stuff, so you can smooth out an entire armys worth of models.

These things sprung up years ago in the RC community. So people could manufacturer spare parts for RC cars. There are even YouTube vid's and Construction drawing to build your own 3d printers. Think it worked out about £2000 if you built your own.

The problem is Having some one good enough at 3d digital rendering and modeling to produce models of a high standard. And that Mech warrior pictured is one of the better 3d Models I have seen but still not perfect.

If it was Commercially viable or a threat to GW and FW, don't you think they would already be using them? But because of the quality issues they are not viable. I mean if someone wants to spend a month modeling and printing off a set of shoulder pads to then spend hours smoothing them over with green stuff, then so be it.

The only thing that a 3D printer would be good at is scenery making. You could print off entire wall sections, and because its a large model you will at least be able to clean it up better. Or don't and give it that Rendered look.

I don't get point three. First off, 3D printers use plastic or resin. Green stuff would not even work because it's too soft. You would have to extrude it and that seems like more of a hassle than pulling it through a hot head. Not to mention that having to manually smooth them out would defeat the purpose of having a 3D printer.

Most of your actual cons will be negated in 5 years when technology meets up with demand. Detail isn't a limiting factor. We will be seeing 3D prints on par with injection molds in 5 years. What the real limiting factor is printing time. If you heat up the hot head so it melts plastic faster then the plastic would take a longer time to cool, resulting in model warp. If you lower the hot head temperature then you have to keep the plastic on the hot head longer, resulting in a slower print time.

The way around this is a resin 3D printer that uses light to cure. However, you still can only print as fast as the cure rate or you will get warping. However, you could have multiple cure lights resulting in a faster cure time since the resin doesn’t touch the light until after it has been pushed through the head. Whereas melted plastic uses ambient temperature to harden, so if you lower the temperature in the room to make the plastic harden quicker then you would need to keep the plastic on the hot head longer to compensate for the lower base temperature of the plastic, resulting in a slower print time. You would have to devise a system to cool the post-heat head plastic while not affecting the pre-heat head plastic.

Interesting that nobody has mentioned the DAZ range of products. For the uneducated, this is a 3d model system that is free, you just buy the models to with it, as well as any clothes / props that you need. Just configure the look in DAZ, export to suitable format and job done.

 Wolfstan wrote:
Interesting that nobody has mentioned the DAZ range of products. For the uneducated, this is a 3d model system that is free, you just buy the models to with it, as well as any clothes / props that you need. Just configure the look in DAZ, export to suitable format and job done.

The cost of DAZ products actually adds up quite significantly to become quite expensive.

If someone from GW were to learn what this "3-D Printer" is, the process would probably go like this:

You know they're already using 3D printing in part of their design process right? I know you were just trying to make a joke (and I'd be lying if I said I didn't get a little chuckle out of it), but seriously, this whole "GW is technologically backward" stuff is getting to be a bit much considering that, in reality, they are the MOST technologically advanced miniatures company currently in existance. Whether people want to like them or not doesn't change that fact. No one else is doing (or even CAN do) what they are accomplishing. Seriously. I always get a laugh when people say things like "3D printing? GW doesn't even use regular 3D yet". I just open up my new GW model kit and look at the pictures that were clearly shots of the 3D production models in the instructions and sigh.

To make a 3D mesh and a color skin is not that hard to do. And there will sure be many models of Not Space Marines to load from the net, once this takes of. You could customize everything and make the models and the terrain you really want. Also painting like GD-winner is a skill not given to everyone. To make a skin on the computer is something everyone can do. And of course you can use it not only for miniatures but for everything else.

The raw, unmitigated ignorance implicit in this post takes my breath away. The lack of knowledge on display here makes me scratch my head at the idea that you think something you clearly don't really understand is somehow going to put a company out of business.

Interesting that nobody has mentioned the DAZ range of products. For the uneducated, this is a 3d model system that is free, you just buy the models to with it, as well as any clothes / props that you need. Just configure the look in DAZ, export to suitable format and job done.

That's really not a solution. You're going to hit several hundred dollars by the time you're done kitting out ONE model. On top of that, the DAZ products aren't even good for their intended purpose (simple, home made animations done by beginners/hobbyists). It might *look* like a reasonable solution if you don't have a lot of experience with this sort of thing, but you're going to get very frustrated very quickly when you get errors like "model not water tight", "incorrect edge thickness", "improperly terminating edge loops" or my personal favorite "vertex normals inverted. Terminating program" right before the the model implodes on itself and your software crashes.

First thing, how much do 'cartridges' for this thing cost, and how ofter would you need to replace them?

Second thing, making skins on the computer not something everyone can do.

Not condemning or condoning, but there are plenty of models out there on the internet, if you know where to look. It depends on what you are trying to achieve. I've exported a model from DAZ and imported it into 3D Max ok. From a quality POV then yes there are issues, but the default import was suitable for me. I wanted to mock up a plastic table top model, that was bare. The model looked just fine, it was in grey and had the clothes & extras on it. Obviously if I was looking to do amazing things with it, then yes, it's on the dire side.

Whether you can then export it in a suitable format I don't know.

Not condemning or condoning, but there are plenty of models out there on the internet, if you know where to look. It depends on what you are trying to achieve. I've exported a model from DAZ and imported it into 3D Max ok. From a quality POV then yes there are issues, but the default import was suitable for me. I wanted to mock up a plastic table top model, that was bare. The model looked just fine, it was in grey and had the clothes & extras on it. Obviously if I was looking to do amazing things with it, then yes, it's on the dire side.

Whether you can then export it in a suitable format I don't know.

That's kind of the point though. You at least sound like you know a little bit about what you're doing. That puts you in the minority. Yes, you can export a DAZ model into max and then export an .stl from there. The issue is that once you've spent money on that model, you're now going to need to do a LOT of cleanup on it before you can print to anywhere near a good standard (you mentioned you just wanted something really simple). You're going to run into things that require poses to be temporarily changed in order to fix so now you need to understand skinning and rigging on top of everything else. zBrush can mitigate that somewhat but then you have to learn displacement maps, etc. Basically, my point is, the tech is there. The people are not. If that makes sense.

Tycho wrote:
It might *look* like a reasonable solution if you don't have a lot of experience with this sort of thing, but you're going to get very frustrated very quickly when you get errors like "model not water tight", "incorrect edge thickness", "improperly terminating edge loops" or my personal favorite "vertex normals inverted. Terminating program" right before the the model implodes on itself and your software crashes.

Oh god, and that's just the software errors. There are hardware errors too, like if you have two normals which overlap each other, most softwares won't detect that unless you instruct it to specifically, and the 3D printer will try to print twice in that same spot, and basically just jam there... There are also a lot more modelling restrictions which prevent a lot of the usual shortcuts...

Oh god, and that's just the software errors. There are hardware errors too, like if you have two normals which overlap each other, most softwares won't detect that unless you instruct it to specifically, and the 3D printer will try to print twice in that same spot, and basically just jam there... There are also a lot more modelling restrictions which prevent a lot of the usual shortcuts...

lol Exactly. And then most people are not going to understand what's going on there or how to fix it. That's IF the machine even jams. Some machines actually will just add a big ugly chunk of material where the points are over-lapped. Now you have a huge mess to clean up ...

At that point, was the 3 grand you spent on the printer plus the several hundred to several thousand dollars of software plus several hundred dollars of material worth it for you to "save" $50 on a professionally done ready to go box of tactical marines?

Tycho wrote:
lol Exactly. And then most people are not going to understand what's going on there or how to fix it. That's IF the machine even jams. Some machines actually will just add a big ugly chunk of material where the points are over-lapped. Now you have a huge mess to clean up ...

If that happens on cheaper 3D printers relying on rails, the extra material can effectively de-calibrate the 3D printer as a result. Hey, another mess!

Long story short: 3D printers require technical skill. A fair bit of it.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
It will take a while before the 3D scanners and printers, programming knowledge, and materials will pay themselves off. $2800 for the printer alone? A couple hundred squads should do it...

Alot cheaper to use shapeways to make masters and then cast from them...

something else to throw into the mix is the advancements made in 3d scanning. At the last Gadget Show event at the NEC I saw a combination of a Kinect and a 3D printer being used. It was being used to scan punters heads and then print them off. Ok they weren't pretty, but the point is it could be done and the Kinect is supposed to be getting better (alongside rival products). You have these two devices meet price / quality wise and you will have a problem.

No need to learn the 3d stuff, which takes, you just point your scanner at the piece your interested in and away you go. It will be more than likely that the software that comes with either device will have no problem talking to each other. There is no need for the likes of GW to panic at the moment, but they do need to keep an eye on it, as do all such company's, because it won't take much of a break through and they will be playing catch up.

something else to throw into the mix is the advancements made in 3d scanning. At the last Gadget Show event at the NEC I saw a combination of a Kinect and a 3D printer being used. It was being used to scan punters heads and then print them off. Ok they weren't pretty, but the point is it could be done and the Kinect is supposed to be getting better (alongside rival products). You have these two devices meet price / quality wise and you will have a problem.

No need to learn the 3d stuff, which takes, you just point your scanner at the piece your interested in and away you go. It will be more than likely that the software that comes with either device will have no problem talking to each other. There is no need for the likes of GW to panic at the moment, but they do need to keep an eye on it, as do all such company's, because it won't take much of a break through and they will be playing catch up.

The 3D scanners are actually MUCH farther away from being ready then the 3D printers are. Even the more advanced professional 3D scanners (the kind that cost near a million) are still tricky and finicky to use and produce results that still need to be cleaned up somewhat. Then, you STILL have to make sure everything is water tight with correct thicknesses, etc etc. You can mitigate lack of 3D modelling knowledge to a certain extent, but you cannot (at this point in time) completely eliminate the need for it. You're definitely right to say GW should keep an eye on it, but like I said earlier, they are already using this in their own production pipeline. Basically, there is still NOTHING easier then gluing a bunch of minis to the bottom of a bucket and then dumping your mold compound of choice into said bucket. Yet that hasn't even come close to beginning to dent GW's bottom line. A more expensive, more difficult process that will produce less high-quality results in a far less efficient manner is not likely to effect GW any time soon.

Point conceded Sir!

Tycho wrote:
No one else is doing (or even CAN do) what they are accomplishing.

Clarify on what you mean by that. We know for a fact that both PP and Wyrd use 3d modelling software to produce models and plastic sets just like GW does. Hell, Ben Misenar's staff photo has him in the middle of doing it.

Clarify on what you mean by that. We know for a fact that both PP and Wyrd use 3d modelling software to produce models and plastic sets just like GW does.

Fair enough. It's not that GW is using 3D where others aren't (as you mentioned we alreadey know that others ARE using it). It's that their tooling and engineering is actually happening at a more advanced rate. Look at a plastic kit like the Mortis Engine as an example (or is it the Coven Throne - I don't know my square basing that well). There is a level of detail and complexity there that no one else is currently matching. The mastery of draught lines and the ability to cast what are, in some cases just stupidly small parts that still have a huge amount of detail is pretty impressive if you know about tool and die manufacturing. Some of the parts they are casting are so small that it wasn't that long ago you would have been laughed out of a factory for even suggesting to attempt it.

Another example is the snap fit minis from the DV box set. Specifically the Chosen models. There are pieces there that fit so insanely well with almost no noticeable lines that I'm impressed every time I put together a new set. On top of that they've managed a pretty impressive rate of turn-around from design to completion as well.

Don't get me wrong, I have no great love afair with GW, and it's not that other companies are not close to them or won't be able to get there with a little more time. It's just that I believe in giving credit where credit is due. Some posters would have you believe GW just discovered cell phones yesterday and are still running around with an abacus instead of a calculator and that's just not true.

EDIT:
The above is in reference to their plastics only. Don't even get me started on Finecast ...

EDIT ROUND 2:
Another good example are the large Riptide and Wraith Knight kits. Anyone else seen kits that pose-able at that scale in a minis game? Go ahead and look. I'll wait ...

Point conceded Sir!

Oh yeah!? Well I think you ... oh wait ... You said "point conceded"? That's it? you're just going to say you agree with me? On Dakka? Idk if I can support this without you insulting my intelligence or heritage or something first! lol/jk

I look forward to further discussions with you

Good point on the plastics point, and that comes from a huge fan of PP plastics(aside from the Argus, I've yet to deal with one that had the neck joint fit in correctly). I'd love GW to do even more of their plastic clamshell characters, those things are absolutely amazing.

I'd love GW to do even more of their plastic clamshell characters, those things are absolutely amazing.

Agreed.

Tycho wrote:

EDIT ROUND 2:
Another good example are the large Riptide and Wraith Knight kits. Anyone else seen kits that pose-able at that scale in a minis game? Go ahead and look. I'll wait ...

While I do not have it personally, people are singing the praises of the Leviathan kit from Dream Forge. It is the same size and price point as the Wraith Knight.

One thing I would like to point out with the current generation of 3D printers, given the poor quality of paint jobs (or lack there of), I think there will be a decent number of players who won't have a problem having a Makerbot spit out a stack of Mediocre Marines to throw on the table. I would turn my nose up at them, but there are plenty of people that wouldn't and would still play with them.

Tycho wrote:

something else to throw into the mix is the advancements made in 3d scanning. At the last Gadget Show event at the NEC I saw a combination of a Kinect and a 3D printer being used. It was being used to scan punters heads and then print them off. Ok they weren't pretty, but the point is it could be done and the Kinect is supposed to be getting better (alongside rival products). You have these two devices meet price / quality wise and you will have a problem.

No need to learn the 3d stuff, which takes, you just point your scanner at the piece your interested in and away you go. It will be more than likely that the software that comes with either device will have no problem talking to each other. There is no need for the likes of GW to panic at the moment, but they do need to keep an eye on it, as do all such company's, because it won't take much of a break through and they will be playing catch up.

The 3D scanners are actually MUCH farther away from being ready then the 3D printers are. Even the more advanced professional 3D scanners (the kind that cost near a million) are still tricky and finicky to use and produce results that still need to be cleaned up somewhat. Then, you STILL have to make sure everything is water tight with correct thicknesses, etc etc. You can mitigate lack of 3D modelling knowledge to a certain extent, but you cannot (at this point in time) completely eliminate the need for it. You're definitely right to say GW should keep an eye on it, but like I said earlier, they are already using this in their own production pipeline. Basically, there is still NOTHING easier then gluing a bunch of minis to the bottom of a bucket and then dumping your mold compound of choice into said bucket. Yet that hasn't even come close to beginning to dent GW's bottom line. A more expensive, more difficult process that will produce less high-quality results in a far less efficient manner is not likely to effect GW any time soon.

Tycho wrote:

Clarify on what you mean by that. We know for a fact that both PP and Wyrd use 3d modelling software to produce models and plastic sets just like GW does.

Fair enough. It's not that GW is using 3D where others aren't (as you mentioned we alreadey know that others ARE using it). It's that their tooling and engineering is actually happening at a more advanced rate. Look at a plastic kit like the Mortis Engine as an example (or is it the Coven Throne - I don't know my square basing that well). There is a level of detail and complexity there that no one else is currently matching. The mastery of draught lines and the ability to cast what are, in some cases just stupidly small parts that still have a huge amount of detail is pretty impressive if you know about tool and die manufacturing. Some of the parts they are casting are so small that it wasn't that long ago you would have been laughed out of a factory for even suggesting to attempt it.

Another example is the snap fit minis from the DV box set. Specifically the Chosen models. There are pieces there that fit so insanely well with almost no noticeable lines that I'm impressed every time I put together a new set. On top of that they've managed a pretty impressive rate of turn-around from design to completion as well.

Don't get me wrong, I have no great love afair with GW, and it's not that other companies are not close to them or won't be able to get there with a little more time. It's just that I believe in giving credit where credit is due. Some posters would have you believe GW just discovered cell phones yesterday and are still running around with an abacus instead of a calculator and that's just not true.

EDIT:
The above is in reference to their plastics only. Don't even get me started on Finecast ...

EDIT ROUND 2:
Another good example are the large Riptide and Wraith Knight kits. Anyone else seen kits that pose-able at that scale in a minis game? Go ahead and look. I'll wait ...

Point conceded Sir!

Oh yeah!? Well I think you ... oh wait ... You said "point conceded"? That's it? you're just going to say you agree with me? On Dakka? Idk if I can support this without you insulting my intelligence or heritage or something first! lol/jk

I look forward to further discussions with you

All this. Quote for truth. This guy's right, and knows what he's talking about.