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Since it's been promised by Asharah Raging but I've seen nothing about it yet, does anyone know when exactly Paypal's payments are going to be able to pledge towards this particular kickstarter? All my spendable money is tied up inside my Paypal, and I can't pledge with it. Without pledging, I'm unable to leave any comments on the KS page asking about it. Can any one of you pledgers/heralds help me out here?

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Anyone got a source for wheeled scifi APCs (think Aliens) in the United States? I think my Kruganova girls need some armored support...

grab these APCs

http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/28mmscifi.html

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

Of course. But that's part of the game. And it's why "Early Bird" pledges exist - to stop us from waiting until the second-last day to pledge.

Can you explain Mantic's approach, then? It was like a game of red light/green light.
I really hope RGH doesn't wait to throw in plastics as some absurd stretch goal in the last half hour. I also hope they lose the arrogance that just assumes they will break a million dollars on this project no matter how little effort they put into it.

Without snark, I just can't figure out what the feth Mantic's plan was/is. Especially with the KoW end at the same time, and the less-then-wonderful product reveals that were a part of it. As you say, though - it really did feel like they alternately tried to throttle, then accelerate their pledges depending on the day, weather and phase of the moon. They were clearly playing the game, though.

 Ouze wrote:

I don't agree with the thought you need to earn a place on Dakka to weigh in on things, generally - and from the administrative postings Yakface and Lego have made about not wanting there to be too many DCM features because they want the same experience available to everyone; I suspect they don't either - but we're well offtopic now I suppose.

Not, not to weigh in on things at all. I read their post to be much more a new person coming in telling us how they felt we should behave and post rather than learning and following the existing norms and took offence at that. Sharing opinions is of course fine. The reason I'm a DCM isn't so I could be part of the cool kids' club. I didn't even realise there were DCM forums for awhile (months?) after I put in, and rarely use them now. I became a DCM because I found was using the site a lot and wanted to support it (server fees, etc) Anyway, I'm happy to let that particular tangent lie now, unless we need to make more fight about it?

 Jimsolo wrote:
On that note, anyone have a good source for an anti-aircraft mount that would be the right scale for 40k? My RH minis are going to be the infantry of my guard list, but I'm going to need a could of Hydras to round it out...

Quite a few of the Polish resin producers have various not-razorback turrets and such that could work. Some also have versions that mount Not-dreadnought arms. Check Kromlech/Maxmini/Bitspudlo/Puppetswar/Forge Planet. Make sure you check out their feedback in their threads before sending money, though!

@Alex - I'm not a fan of "the game" either, but it is what it is. This is what Miniatures-Kickstarters have become.

 JeffVimes wrote:
I'd rather have RGH go with metal and resin, some things they know about and proved they can deal with, than having them trying plastic for such a large campaign. The only thing it would add is delays.

It's metal and spin-cast plastic (ie, Restic - Mantic, Sedition Wars, etc). "Proper" resin isn't part of this KS.

prankster wrote:
Indeed, unless they've been working to get at least one plastic tool cut so that they can ensure it lives up to their usual stands then a last ditch switch to plastic for this KS is probably not going to be a good thing.
On the subject of yesterday's update, it's a shame that we're still seeing 20k between stretch goals, but I guess once we have a couple of slower days that'll probably change.
That said, I am a little surprised that we've not had a few more pledges since the update given "everyone" was going crazy for the nurse that's now the 350k unlock. Guess we'd have had more if she was thrown in free at 350k rather than available to purchase.
Current count: $305,879 - 1,322 pledges

Well, the pledges are made up of "x number of heroines" etc. So people will just be factoring them in with their existing pledges, unless they're playing Kickstarter-Pokemon with no intent to go back and buy some more at retail later. I'm just counting her as one of the figures I'll get with my existing pledge.

Re APCs: I am not sure why I didn't think of DFG's APCs XD, I certainly gave Mark enough of my money during the KS to know about it.

Ouze wrote:Sure, it's had a lot of exposure in the channels we are familiar with. As it turns out though, those channels are really, really limited.

You know that kickstarter I ran? The one that I "advertised" solely with a thread in N&R in the OT, and no where else. No thread created by me on BOLS, Warseer, not a single reference to it on my own Facebook page. That one thread was it.

I think this is not an accurate comparison. You didn't spend three months building interest on facebook. You didn't spend two months having one the busiest hobby blogs showcase your other work. You didn't spend three months building interest with regular email updates about the kickstarter, or have more than one popular blog showing your demo sketches to guide people to those emails.

Suffice it to say, I believe this KS project was widely known, even outside of dakka, from day one.

This chart Alpharius posted sums it up perfectly:



Yeah, they went nuts the first day - $250,000 in a single day! Now they're going to be making way less then that; only $34k today. Of course, even if they only average out $20k a day, for the rest of the project, that's another $600,000 - significantly more than that first day that looks so fancy.

If they average $20k/day for the rest of the project, I'll be really shocked. Happy, but shocked. I guess we'll see.

That pledges-per-day-chart looks just like the pledges distribution for most other kickstarter projects for miniatures, doesn't it?
Large peak during the first one or two days, due to some sort of built up excitement or hype and special early discounts, and then a long stretch of lower contributions. During that long stretch the kickstarter project accumulates 25-50% of the final number of backers, even though they apparently do not spend too much until the very last days for a final rush and another peak in the pledged-$-per-day-chart.

From that point of view everything looks fine. I guess we'll get one more unlocked stretch goal today and part of the next one. But perhaps the current stretch goal spacing is too large for the lower rate of backers in the following days. $5-10k might be the way to go. We'll see.

Well, Day 3 is a fair bit short of what I would have expected, but then again the point was well made that this one has been advertised for months.

They need new people pledging right now, as there's $250k worth of initial pledgers waiting to see what they can actually get without worrying about add-ons.

I don't think Raging Heroes should have had any early bird discounts. They did a great job getting the word out, so that many, many people knew when it was starting. Without EB pledges, maybe a few less people would have pledged "on spec", and thus reduced the number of complaints people have that they have pledged for something that doesn't currently meet their value expectations.

And to address a few other posts:

Of course the Kickstarter debate has happened many times before, in forums (original use of the word) much more important than here. Parts of Kickstarter's success is that it does generate debate. And it doesn't help for us that miniature companies game the system, which rarely happens in other categories. But the position I described is the position that Kickstarter describes, in their Terms and Conditions, their Guidelines, and when they have participated in the debate.

And I was expecting the "new user" bashing, but chose to post anyway, due to a desire to help Raging Heroes succeed, despite their mistakes. My post count does not accurately reflect my use of this site (5-6 years), or my years in the hobby (29). The only reason I am posting here at all is that a certain other well-known forum run by control freaks actively hides their Crowding Funding Topics (how does that make any sense?). But if you would prefer this discussion remains an old boys club, I guess that's the reason why it doesn't make sense to elect new politicians. Apparently, only the opinions of those that have been there before matter.

I do apologize if anyone found my tone condescending. I'm an aerospace engineer, so I've been trained to keep my writing in a certain, factual based tone.

Yeah, the whole "This is what Kickstarter is for" and "This is how Kickstarter should be used" discussions tend to be hot buttons because, quite frankly, on that subject, everyone is right.

And wrong!

Kickstarter is a crowdfunding site - the ultimate 'vote with your wallet' experience.

If KS allows something on there, and allows it to stay on there, then it is obviously something that KS thinks 'should be on there.

If it funds, then 'the people' agree.

As for not offering criticism during a campaign? That's downright laughable.

Any good Kickstarter makes adjustments mid-campaign - all the time.

 Know No Pear wrote:
Since it's been promised by Asharah Raging but I've seen nothing about it yet, does anyone know when exactly Paypal's payments are going to be able to pledge towards this particular kickstarter? All my spendable money is tied up inside my Paypal, and I can't pledge with it. Without pledging, I'm unable to leave any comments on the KS page asking about it. Can any one of you pledgers/heralds help me out here?

Put the question forth for you

Sythica wrote:
I don't think Raging Heroes should have had any early bird discounts. They did a great job getting the word out, so that many, many people knew when it was starting. Without EB pledges, maybe a few less people would have pledged "on spec", and thus reduced the number of complaints people have that they have pledged for something that doesn't currently meet their value expectations.

And to address a few other posts:

Of course the Kickstarter debate has happened many times before, in forums (original use of the word) much more important than here. Parts of Kickstarter's success is that it does generate debate. And it doesn't help for us that miniature companies game the system, which rarely happens in other categories. But the position I described is the position that Kickstarter describes, in their Terms and Conditions, their Guidelines, and when they have participated in the debate.

And I was expecting the "new user" bashing, but chose to post anyway, due to a desire to help Raging Heroes succeed, despite their mistakes. My post count does not accurately reflect my use of this site (5-6 years), or my years in the hobby (29). The only reason I am posting here at all is that a certain other well-known forum run by control freaks actively hides their Crowding Funding Topics (how does that make any sense?). But if you would prefer this discussion remains an old boys club, I guess that's the reason why it doesn't make sense to elect new politicians. Apparently, only the opinions of those that have been there before matter.

I do apologize if anyone found my tone condescending. I'm an aerospace engineer, so I've been trained to keep my writing in a certain, factual based tone.

OK, I'll reply. Firstly for clarification and secondly for discussion.

I have absolutely no interest in newbie bashing, nor in attempting to deny any user, new or old in expressing their opinion. There are at least two other new posters I have "met" in this thread and had nothing but cordial discussion with them. Your reasons for choosing to post here in a limited fashion are interesting, but by the by. I took offence at your tone and replied to explain why I felt you were being disrespectful in the way you shared your opinion. The fact that you're a new poster does in fact exacerbate that, due to the tone that you chose to use in that post, in a "who the feth is this guy?" manner - since you have chosen not to contribute or take part in this community until now. I additionally fail to see why your career should have any bearing on how you choose to write a post. When I write for academic purposes, I don't use the conversational, often sarcastic tone that I use here.

Having said all of that, I will accept your apology, and genuinely reiterate the welcome and hope that you'll stay on here that I posted in that first reply to you.

On your other point, I do agree with you. I don't think Early Bird discounts are especially good for either the producer nor the consumer, as they create unrealistic expectations on both sides, and we end up with the now-common spikes on Day 1/2 29/30 with little in the middle. This now also happens with many of the smaller projects like RBG that don't have the same scope as something like RH. We consumers have been trained.

Addressing your previous points, when someone tries to restart the "what KS is really for" debate here, it's usually shut down by one of the mode pretty quickly, as it's perceived as an irrelevant meta-argument. I've had posts of my own on the topic deleted, and frankly, the will of Dakka's benevolent overlords appears to be that it's been done to death, and to talk about it in a new thread in Dakka discussions or something and not in individual KS threads.

I don't also know how many people are truly on the fence with these big campaigns when compared to those who are big fans or haters, nor do I think that critical discussion on (unimportant) forums (online use of the word, sorry) such as this one really have on making people's mind up one way or the other. I see absolutely no value to my fellow consumer or community member in sending RH a PM saying "excuse me guys, I'm a tad concerned that you might take 6 months longer to fulfill your obligations than you say." I do see a value in telling people "these guys have a proven track record of being months late, so know that going in." After all, we're the ones taking the risks with our money. Forewarned is forearmed, and so on. I often fill the critical "black hat" role at work, and frankly, it's a task I enjoy and also do in many of my posts here. But really, Mantic games has an often incredibly critical audience here at Dakka, and they appear to be doing quite decently out of Kickstarter. Posts that serve merely to insult or deride a company are usually pretty transparent. After all, people don't come to an online discussion as tabula rasa - they come with existing opinions and biases, for or against.

Know no Pear, have an answer for you:

Asharah Raging wrote: We will indeed set up a Paypal page for people wanting to access the KS pledge levels, price and freebies, but unfortunately, please note that it cannot be linked to the Kickstarter system (their choice, not ours) and so, will not give access to the KS comments. It will be set up in the next few days.

Hope this helps

 Vermillion wrote:
Know no Pear, have an answer for you:

Asharah Raging wrote: We will indeed set up a Paypal page for people wanting to access the KS pledge levels, price and freebies, but unfortunately, please note that it cannot be linked to the Kickstarter system (their choice, not ours) and so, will not give access to the KS comments. It will be set up in the next few days.

Hope this helps

A'ight, cool! She gave me an answer like that too, but that was before the launch. :| Time to wait longer, then.

The staff at RH are awake again:

Loud'n Raging wrote: 3 minutes ago

Finally got our first 8-hour sleep night in over 2 weeks! Watch out world! ;-)
We'll be working on a new update as soon as we get in the office.
And don't worry, everything is awesome and because of your great support, there's no chance of having key characters ending up not unlocked!

So, time to start waiting for another update. Though not sure what they're going to put in it though, other than maybe some more art work / posters.


$308,422 current pledge level

prankster wrote:
The staff at RH are awake again:

Loud'n Raging wrote: 3 minutes ago

Finally got our first 8-hour sleep night in over 2 weeks! Watch out world! ;-)
We'll be working on a new update as soon as we get in the office.
And don't worry, everything is awesome and because of your great support, there's no chance of having key characters ending up not unlocked!

So, time to start waiting for another update. Though not sure what they're going to put in it though, other than maybe some more art work / posters.


$308,422 current pledge level

Those are some strange 'office hours' - it is already almost 5PM in France!

Can't wait for the next update - it should tell us a lot about the direction of this campaign for the next week or so.

I suspect the main reason why we don't see bursts of funding when a stretch goal is unlocked is because there's no need to add more money to get the new model, when you can simply choose it as one of the models you're already getting as a part of your pledge. I went in as an early bird general, so I'll be waiting until close to the end of the project before reviewing all of the options available that I might want and adjusting my pledge accordingly.

So far, this KS's performance looks exactly like all the others: big burst in the first day or two, then small steady growth until the last day or two.

As far as the hype and build up for this project, I doubt it's as extensive as some people might think. Even with the "extensive hyping" on Dakka and other places, in my core gaming group of six people, I'm the only one who knew about the project. Anecdotal evidence, I agree.

 Alpharius wrote:

prankster wrote:
The staff at RH are awake again:

Loud'n Raging wrote: 3 minutes ago

Finally got our first 8-hour sleep night in over 2 weeks! Watch out world! ;-)
We'll be working on a new update as soon as we get in the office.
And don't worry, everything is awesome and because of your great support, there's no chance of having key characters ending up not unlocked!

So, time to start waiting for another update. Though not sure what they're going to put in it though, other than maybe some more art work / posters.


$308,422 current pledge level

Those are some strange 'office hours' - it is already almost 5PM in France!

Can't wait for the next update - it should tell us a lot about the direction of this campaign for the next week or so.

Unfortunately, the quantum universe of infinite possibilities has really collapsed to two realistic options;

1) Decrease the interval between unlocks, or

2) Leave the unlocks at the same interval.

All other options degenerate into those two. Social Media contests to open goals (Ye Old Back-o-Meter, anyone?) are simply a variation on option 1 (and have the unmistakable smell of... well, nothing nice).

Of course, they still need to introduce better designed pledge packages, which is problematic. I know that I am holding onto an Early Bird special that poorly fits my desires, because there isn't really a better option yet. But introducing a better options means I (and thus people in my position) give up expensive, ill-fitting options in order to take advantage of better options, they face a short term loss. It would be in favor of a long term viability, but thus far long-term thinking... well, it doesn't seem to be all that prioritized so far.

Well, this project hasn't pulled a Thon yet, that's good. It seems like there's been an awful lot of criticism towards how this one's being run since pretty much day one.

A couple things to bear in mind about plastics production.......

1............ They already have the money to produce almost everything they have shown in plastic if they want to and still make a tidy profit.

2............Plastics WILL reduce the fidelity of detail. Seriously this cannot be overstated enough.

3........... Many of the reputable plastics production firms are currently booked well into next year and RH still has A LOT of models to Digi- build ( unless they already have them made and are just not showing them. ) which will put anything they do not have ready now more than a year out to begin production.


Plastics production is really probably NOT a good idea for RH. I would not do it if I were them. There are just WAY too many ways it can go wrong.

..................Have they not publicized their resin spin casting contractor service yet?

Didn't this say they're shipping in March 2014 though? That's nearly a year away. I'd say they probably have plenty of time to contract it out for plastic production.

 Barzam wrote:
Well, this project hasn't pulled a Thon yet, that's good. It seems like there's been an awful lot of criticism towards how this one's being run since pretty much day one.

Thon? Not understanding the context of that one...

There has been some very vocal critiques of the KS. Some of them have been very solid, well thought-out ones. I don't necessarily agree with their conclusions, but they come from a place of logic. And those people are usually offering constructive critiques as well. I see most of it as healthy for the KS in general, as RH have stepped up to address many concerns.

 Barzam wrote:
Well, this project hasn't pulled a Thon yet, that's good. It seems like there's been an awful lot of criticism towards how this one's being run since pretty much day one.

Yeah, that's probably why it got funded in 30 seconds, made 120,000 $ in less than an hour and more than 300,000 $ in just three days, because noone likes this project and it is buried in criticism

Some people seem to blame Raging Heroes, that unlike GW, they announced this project more than a week in advance, as if that is a bad thing. I am not sure if any other non-US-UK company succeeded in meeting all kickstarter requirements, but it is a hell of an effort that takes its time and is not totally predictable.

Also I want to repeat that RH is confident that all designed models will be unlocked during this kickstarter, so no need to panic the first three days.

In the long run and most probably after the kickstarter, it is possible that RH will do vehicles fitting the motorbikes and Mechas released by then.

 tre manor wrote:

2............Plastics WILL reduce the fidelity of detail. Seriously this cannot be overstated enough.

This was and remains my main concern with plastic production. I'm really only interested in these minis for how they look, and reducing the detail would be very saddening.

 tre manor wrote:
2............Plastics WILL reduce the fidelity of detail. Seriously this cannot be overstated enough.

Actually it can be overstated and frequently is. You may or may not like GW's new kits but you cannot deny that they are incredibly detailed. Also, Dream Forge has their entire Eiserken line in plastic and the detail on those is amazing. Can do do better in resin? Of course. But let's not pretend that there is no way to cut a model apart and put it on a sprue that will retain most of the detail with only minor consessions.

 tre manor wrote:
Plastics production is really probably NOT a good idea for RH. I would not do it if I were them. There are just WAY too many ways it can go wrong.

You cannot possibly be serious. A fair number of people have already mentioned that they will likely reduce their pledge amounts if there are no plastics (and have said they would raise it if there were). Dream Forge and Mantic have pretty much proven that plastic is the way to go.

It sounds like, financially, RH would indeed benefit from plastic production Breotan.

I, personally, still don't want plastic minis. I know that the new GW kits (the cultists in particular) have really upped the detail, but they are (in my opinion) still nowhere near what Raging Heroes puts into their sculpts, and I don't want to sacrifice quality for price. I'm willing to pay extra to get higher quality sculpts. I understand if other people aren't, and would rather have sculpts that are cheap, and just 'really good' as opposed to 'mind blowing.'

As a side note, what is the expected benefit from plastic? Are people anticipating that the price will drop, and they will get more minis? I confess that I'm new to this whole Kickstarter thing, so I don't really know how things have gone in the past, or how people are thinking they are going to go now.

I think the GW DE showed how much detail could be retained in multipart plastic. As do Dreamforges Eiserken.

With the quality available now you get more into the range of pointless detail that can still be retained in metal/resin vs. qualative detail which plastic catchs in it's entirety.

 Breotan wrote:

 tre manor wrote:
Plastics production is really probably NOT a good idea for RH. I would not do it if I were them. There are just WAY too many ways it can go wrong.

You cannot possibly be serious. A fair number of people have already mentioned that they will likely reduce their pledge amounts if there are no plastics (and have said they would raise it if there were). Dream Forge and Mantic have pretty much proven that plastic is the way to go.

I'll have to disagree with you, partially. I'm not a fan of Mantic's plastics. Wyrd? Yes. Dreamforge? Yes. Mantic's offerings seem anemic in comparison (with the possible exception of their undead).

Still, only a minor quibble, and your point stands.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Barzam wrote:
Well, this project hasn't pulled a Thon yet, that's good. It seems like there's been an awful lot of criticism towards how this one's being run since pretty much day one.

Yeah, that's probably why it got funded in 30 seconds, made 120,000 $ in less than an hour and more than 300,000 $ in just three days, because noone likes this project and it is buried in criticism

Some people seem to blame Raging Heroes, that unlike GW, they announced this project more than a week in advance, as if that is a bad thing. I am not sure if any other non-US-UK company succeeded in meeting all kickstarter requirements, but it is a hell of an effort that takes its time and is not totally predictable.

A lot of the criticism is down to perception, I think. Saying that they have been working on this for a year, and exclusively for the past 6 months and then taking hours to update once goals are hit creates a perception of shenanigans. Not saying that there are any, but the perception is certainly fairly widely held, judging by the comments on the KS page and various message boards around.

Plus, they flat out said they adjusted the intervals at one point, if I remember correctly.

Personally, I'm a total observer on this one. I like most, if not all, of the concept art, but not a big fan of the execution on their previous figures. Scale/proportion issues for me.

As to what kind of detail they can or cannot get in plastic, that is largely down to whom is actually manufacturing them. They will have to make less concessions if they have a supplier with tech similar to Wargames Factory than if their supplier has tech similar to Renedra. It is doable, but Tre is probably right that they will sacrifice some detail, no matter who makes them.

~Eric

Actually it can be overstated and frequently is. You may or may not like GW's new kits but you cannot deny that they are incredibly detailed. Also, Dream Forge has their entire Eisencorps line in plastic and the detail on those is amazing. Can do do better in resin? Of course. But let's not pretend that there is no way to cut a model apart and put it on a sprue that will retain most of the detail with only minor consessions.

compare the detail of the digital models that Dream Forge or Wyrd use compared to the detail levels of the Raging Heroes.

They do their best to ensure the models are indeed true to the concept art and 3d renders, I've not been dissapointed yet with any model I've bought