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 McNinja wrote:
A good model can make up for poor rules by being a nice display piece. A poor model is still going to look silly, no matter if it has BS5 and a Str D AP1 heavy 30 weapon or not.

I deeply disagree with that.

If a terrible model has nice( or good ) rules, you can always convert or kitbash the model.

If a good model has terrible rules, no matter what, it will stay terrible, and having a dust collector that costs 100$ on my shelve, is not something good, or i can use it, or i don't buy it( yes despite beeing the geek i am i don't collect action figures and such, don't have enough place at home for that).

But thats more a matter of perspective i think.

What i'm really curious is how the Apoc rules will be changed and to what degree.

Because there is gonna be changes, no matter what, still wonder if it will stay an Happy-go-all thing, or something with a bit more structure at the price of freedom.

 McNinja wrote:
A good model can make up for poor rules by being a nice display piece. A poor model is still going to look silly, no matter if it has BS5 and a Str D AP1 heavy 30 weapon or not.

It saddens me to say this but you underestimate the WAAC players. I see way too many people at my local club praising Helldrakes purely because they have good rules (I think we are up to 3 different players at different stages of collecting 3 each).

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Pacific wrote:
Would much rather just pay £30-35, as with every other FW book, but once again they have to try and take the piss and charge double the amount.

guessing you dont buy many FW books then, as every IA apart from the small addons like aeronautica is in the £50 range. The materials used int eh HH book were also a cut above the (already excellent)_ quality of IA books

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books

(IA4 being £32 is right, given it is the oldest one there and the thinnest)

Yep.. that was what I meant..

(I do own the first 3 of them and the first Vraks book actually!)

Possibly wishful thinking that they should cost £30 perhaps, which would be a reasonable price for a book of that size.

I am REALLY looking forward to the Apoc book coming out now that there are also rumors of the FW update coming out on its heels. The only reservation I had before was:

What if I can only play 1 of my 3 units from FW in the current Apoc book due to available rules.

On a side note, I am sad that I won't be able to field my Shadow Walker Squadron anymore. I wanted to try to get ONE game in with the Scatter Laser rule (Laser Lock) and firing each weapon twice...alas I don't think I'll be able to get an Apoc in before the update.

Your marines may not need a super-heavy, but there are thousands of marine players who would probably buy one in a heartbeat. The Forgeworld Thunderhawk has NOT sold that well, but I wager a plastic one would be perpetually sold out. Even if it were $200.

How true. The Forge World Thunderhawk is not only expensive, it's also enormously time consuming, laborious and complex to build by comparison to a conventional plastic kit. A friend of mine got one as a gift and ended up trading it away because he knew he'd never find the time for the effort it takes to build it properly. A regular GW kit would probably break the $200 US mark, maybe $250 even, but everyone with Space Marines of any kind would be scrounging the cash to buy one.

IA books go for below the price of loosely equivalent textbooks, but then that's a market of complete ripoffs.

For much smaller books with relatively little unique information (lots of common knowledge piled together), I've paid double what FW charges for their books, and they're of pretty consistent high quality. The older books had some editing errors, but they've clamped down on that (and their own model QA issues; haven't got a single bent or flashed model in a while).

GW books, however, are small, containing poorly written fluff in comparison to FW, and have abominable proofreading. The $30 softcovers were a bit of a rip-off, but nothing that I'd get overly incensed about, but this new run of small hardcovers, even for the supplements, and charging high prices for them irks me some. When a FW book costs between 10 and 25 bucks more, and is much bigger, containing multiple army lists, units for different armies, well-written, much more realistic fluff, and still finds space for the entire wargear selection of the included army lists AND all the apocalypse rules for superheavies, superheavy fliers and gargantuan creatures, it just makes GW's publications look little underwhelming.

The Apoc book will likely justify its own price if it's in the same range as everything else, but this Iyanden supplement being full codex price, Crusade of Fire, Death from the Skies and so on really do stink.

Have those rumours from warseer been posted? That gaunt guy or what ever his name is (sorry) said its supposed to be the 3 types of books as said by the source at faeit and the releases are just the khorne and necron vehicles but also 3 huge terrain pieces.

If thats true wtf GW, jesus, how about new apoc vehicles? Na have some buildings instead.

 unmercifulconker wrote:
...the releases are just the khorne and necron vehicles but also 3 huge terrain pieces. If thats true wtf GW, jesus, how about new apoc vehicles? Na have some buildings instead.

As a Necron player, I must admit that I don't see a problem with next month's pending releases.

As a Dark Eldar, Ork, and Space Marine player, I understand completely and feel your pain.

Orks already have a dedicated Apocalypse kit, so do Imperial Guard and now it appears Chaos Marines and Necrons will have something too. The Eldar Wraithknight being a mini-Titan should give Eldar a nice Apocalypse boost. What's amazing is that the most popular model range, Space Marines, apparently will still not have a dedicated large model kit for Apocalypse. Very odd and a bit mystifying since there's clearly money to be made in doing such a thing.

As a Necron player I will buy it if its usable in standard games of 40k. If its Apocalypse only it will have to be something amazing. Apocalypse right now is no fun to play particularly when it is a disorganized cluster feth, which has been my experience at most apocalypse games in the area.

 BrassScorpion wrote:
Orks already have a dedicated Apocalypse kit, so do Imperial Guard and now it appears Chaos Marines and Necrons will have something too. The Eldar Wraithknight being a mini-Titan should give Eldar a nice Apocalypse boost. What's amazing is that the most popular model range, Space Marines, apparently will still not have a dedicated large model kit for Apocalypse. Very odd and a bit mystifying since there's clearly money to be made in doing such a thing.

Perhaps think of the Baneblade as Imperial, rather than Imperial Guard. SM players I know have had no issue including one in their apoc armies.

Yes right, and they actually have a place in terms of the background (with some relatively minor conversion) in pre-heresy marine Legions.

 BrassScorpion wrote:
Orks already have a dedicated Apocalypse kit, so do Imperial Guard and now it appears Chaos Marines and Necrons will have something too. The Eldar Wraithknight being a mini-Titan should give Eldar a nice Apocalypse boost. What's amazing is that the most popular model range, Space Marines, apparently will still not have a dedicated large model kit for Apocalypse. Very odd and a bit mystifying since there's clearly money to be made in doing such a thing.

GW kinda wrote themselves into a corner fluff-wise on that one though. Marines, supposedly, don't actually have anything all that heavy. The Thunderhawk is about the biggest thing they've got, and it's really supposed to be the only big thing in the arsenal. They're not designed (again, fluff-wise) as a heavy siege force, but as a rapid strike force.

Still leaves them room for things in the intermediate scale of not-quite-superheavies, of course, and GW could always just blatantly ignore the background they've established in order to sell miniatures, but eh. I stopped listening to Marine complaints about four editions ago.

For one, if it's real, it will likely come with lots of different ways to model it.
.
Two, there are plenty of models which look FAAAAAAAAAR worse. Holy cow just look through the company's history...

Finally, if you do end up hating it, it doesn't matter if GW releases it. You aren't required to buy it, or even care about it.

Okay, i may have been a little harsh with so little to go on. I think the concept is just bad though, a big man/ tank? it it was a huge Defiler type mechanical then that would be cool, or a daemonic looking machine, like Heldrake/ Forgefiend it would work a lot better

 NecronLord3 wrote:
As a Necron player I will buy it if its usable in standard games of 40k. If its Apocalypse only it will have to be something amazing. Apocalypse right now is no fun to play particularly when it is a disorganized cluster feth, which has been my experience at most apocalypse games in the area.

I was thinking this myself and I don't know what common belief is about this. Will every faction get their own mini-titan for standard games? And if so, will it still be without Structure points? If so, how many hull points should a Baneblade have, and should it be possible to destroy it with a single shot?

Id vote yes, and not have it cost half your army

Chaospling wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
As a Necron player I will buy it if its usable in standard games of 40k. If its Apocalypse only it will have to be something amazing. Apocalypse right now is no fun to play particularly when it is a disorganized cluster feth, which has been my experience at most apocalypse games in the area.

I was thinking this myself and I don't know what common belief is about this. Will every faction get their own mini-titan for standard games? And if so, will it still be without Structure points? If so, how many hull points should a Baneblade have, and should it be possible to destroy it with a single shot?

allot of people have complained about hull points in 6th being the reason vehicles are used less than they were in 5th and IMO the solution is having them only be destroyed if they are on their last hull point and use a AP1&2 to modify the number if hull points they deliver instead of the penetration result. Then super heavies can be given a reasonable number of hull points like 6+ to make them as survivable and tough as they should be. Or a blanket rule preventing destruction until the last hull point, I believe structure points work this way in apocalypse.

GW kinda wrote themselves into a corner fluff-wise on that one though. Marines, supposedly, don't actually have anything all that heavy. The Thunderhawk is about the biggest thing they've got, and it's really supposed to be the only big thing in the arsenal. They're not designed (again, fluff-wise) as a heavy siege force, but as a rapid strike force.

Bingo. The thing everyone want, a Knight, or a plastic Warhound, has nothing to do with Space Marines. Both are Adeptus Mechanicus forces that are much more likely to ally with Imperial Guard than with Space Marine Chapters. Not that some chapters don't have excellent relations with the AM (Iron Hands and Salamanders) but Space Marine chapters really are small time guys doing small time operations and large war engines don't have a role in them.

I could really whine for ages about how messed up GW's fluff is about troop numbers. In GW world planets are conquered by attacking one small city somewhere with 100 guys and calling it a day (100 guys, really? The Police Departments of small cities have more armed forces) When GW thinks it's going all apocalypse in the fluff they say a sector was attacked by five Space Marine chapters. It's pathetic. I'd say you need 200-500 thousand Marines (200-500 Marine chapters) to conquer planet earth of 2012 and twenty, thirty million Imperial Guard and their war machines (fleet, void shielded vehicles, other advanced weaponry) to control it day by day in order to avoid it revolting back to where it was in just one month, but in the GW universe a chapter of Space Marines conquers sectors of planets, mostly by dropping fifty guys into some capital, killing a governor of some kind, planting a flag and saying this is ours let's move on. It's hilarious and I've no idea what it has to do with war or controlling hostile territories.

I think that you assume all planets to have 2000years worth of humans procreating on them. When allot are barren desolate pre industrialized colonies. Those could be pacified buy a few SM chapters easily, while planets or systems like Apocalypse take years or decades to conquer. Think more Fire Fly and less Star Wars.

Well, it WAS all written by fantasy nerds who'd never served a day in any military branch, so complete disjointment from reality is to be expected.

Space Marines make surgical strikes to destroy the enemy leadership, they do not even attempt to conquer entire planet.

 Therion wrote:

GW kinda wrote themselves into a corner fluff-wise on that one though. Marines, supposedly, don't actually have anything all that heavy. The Thunderhawk is about the biggest thing they've got, and it's really supposed to be the only big thing in the arsenal. They're not designed (again, fluff-wise) as a heavy siege force, but as a rapid strike force.

Bingo. The thing everyone want, a Knight, or a plastic Warhound, has nothing to do with Space Marines. Both are Adeptus Mechanicus forces that are much more likely to ally with Imperial Guard than with Space Marine Chapters. Not that some chapters don't have excellent relations with the AM (Iron Hands and Salamanders) but Space Marine chapters really are small time guys doing small time operations and large war engines don't have a role in them.

I could really whine for ages about how messed up GW's fluff is about troop numbers. In GW world planets are conquered by attacking one small city somewhere with 100 guys and calling it a day (100 guys, really? The Police Departments of small cities have more armed forces) When GW thinks it's going all apocalypse in the fluff they say a sector was attacked by five Space Marine chapters. It's pathetic. I'd say you need 200-500 thousand Marines (200-500 Marine chapters) to conquer planet earth of 2012 and twenty, thirty million Imperial Guard and their war machines (fleet, void shielded vehicles, other advanced weaponry) to control it day by day in order to avoid it revolting back to where it was in just one month, but in the GW universe a chapter of Space Marines conquers sectors of planets, mostly by dropping fifty guys into some capital, killing a governor of some kind, planting a flag and saying this is ours let's move on. It's hilarious and I've no idea what it has to do with war or controlling hostile territories.

Pretty sure thats how most of the common wealth was created, small fleet some red coats and a flag

http://youtu.be/UTduy7Qkvk8

 Crimson wrote:
Space Marines make surgical strikes to destroy the enemy leadership, they do not even attempt to conquer entire planet.

Gav Thorpe is that you?

Let's assume it was possible during war time (which it isn't) to drop a few tactical squads of Space Marines to destroy whoever world leader like the president of USA or a few commie dictators in China. You hypothetically succeed. What now? Is the war over? My friend the war just got started and it won't be over in a hundred years unless there's an Imperial Guard soldier and a tank in every street corner of every city in the world twenty four seven. The whole surgical strike story is just bad science fiction. There's a role for surgical strikes but all it does is disrupt the enemy chain of command for a very small period of time (less than a day in some cases) and that's it.

I think that you assume all planets to have 2000years worth of humans procreating on them

Yeah in many cases they have 40000 years worth of humans procreating on them. Besides, the fluff about 'farm planets' that Marines can conquer is equally ludicrous. There's often only 'one or two agricultural colonies' of people living there and they somehow control machinery enough to mine, farm and patrol the entire planet. GW's writers can't even grasp the size of planets and how many farmers you need to keep your business going for just one year or one harvest. Anyway, GW knows nothing of people, nothing of war and nothing of the galaxy but yet they try to write about soldiers in space fighting to protect and enlarge a future Imperium.

Therion, I understand where you are coming from, but this is commonplace in a lot of Sci Fi.

Look at Battletech. It's almost the exact same story. A dozen dropships land at key cities/points/facilities and destroy the highest grade resistance on the planet and win the whole thing. Move on, and repeat on the next planet.

40k, in my mind is no different in this aspect.

On the other hand, with some imagination, it wouldn't be too hard to believe that if say; some country/nation was invaded by soldiers that are nearly impossible to kill and can kill 20+ soldiers for every one they lose, have your country 100% blockaded from land, sea, and air, and also poses the ability to turn your entire country into smoldering ash with a few pieces of ordinance.... that country would surrender wholesale.

If aliens showed up tomorrow and demonstrated their ability to turn Earth into a fireball or slag all living life with a virus, are you going to lead the revolt?

Pretty sure thats how most of the common wealth was created, small fleet some red coats and a flag

Hehe you're right, and that works fine when the target territory is unpopulated or consists of disorganised people with no government and with no better armament than sticks and stones. Basically a Warhammer Fantasy era instead of an era with stealth bombers, chemical weapons and nanobots that eat you alive.

 Therion wrote:

Pretty sure thats how most of the common wealth was created, small fleet some red coats and a flag

Hehe you're right, and that works fine when the target territory is unpopulated or consists of disorganised people with no government and with no better armament than sticks and stones. Basically a Warhammer Fantasy era instead of an era with stealth bombers, chemical weapons and nanobots that eat you alive.

Space Marines vs. Local Miltia is no different really.

If their weakest guy can take a shot from your best weapon and keep coming, you might want to rethink your stance on subjugation.

So, any guesses over what the new terrain pieces will be? I don't think there's anything the GW terrain range needs per se, other than variety, which wouldnt be the kind of thing they'd likely to do.

A defence laser would be nice, though.

 Therion wrote:
Yeah in many cases they have 40000 years worth of humans procreating on them. Besides, the fluff about 'farm planets' that Marines can conquer is equally ludicrous. There's often only 'one or two agricultural colonies' of people living there and they somehow control machinery enough to mine, farm and patrol the entire planet. GW's writers can't even grasp the size of planets and how many farmers you need to keep your business going for just one year or one harvest. Anyway, GW knows nothing of people, nothing of war and nothing of the galaxy but yet they try to write about soldiers in space fighting to protect and enlarge a future Imperium.

That same farm planet doesn't have a war machine the likes of the US or even Uganda protecting it either. There may be millions of people living on it, but the heaviest firearm they may have it a flintlock with which they shoot wild animals. The Imperium has planets with vastly different levels of technology on them including some planets living in a feudal state. I'm not really sure how that works sociologically to be honest given that planets must have some technology with which to maintain contact with the rest of the imperium including a spaceport where they bring their tithe, but its the way it is nonetheless.

Also keep I mind that there are A LOT of planets where the people have regressed and it is often mentioned the common folk think Space Marines are Gods.

Most of the planets that have put up huge resistance in the 40k fluff have shown to take more than 5-10 Marines to win the war.

Space Marines vs. Local Miltia is no different really. If their weakest guy can take a shot from your best weapon and keep coming, you might want to rethink your stance on subjugation.

Well, there's dozens of times more tanks on modern Terra than there are Space Marines in first, second and third founding chapters combined, so I'd say we're ready to form a galaxy spanning Imperium! We just need jet fuel to send our heroes to space!

Most of the planets that have put up huge resistance in the 40k fluff have shown to take more than 5-10 Marines to win the war.

Yeah like Armageddon that has a population of 200 billion or what and is one of the most important planets in the Imperium. It was so important the Imperium sent 15 Space Marine chapters or so to defend it. 15000 troops. Saddam Hussein and his sons would've defeated those defenders They had what 100K old tanks and other armoured vehicles and a million infantry at their highest point.