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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

I have edited the thread to remove spammy personal effrontery. Please remember, we only have three rules: be polite, stay on topic, and no spam. Thanks.

   
Made in us
Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader





North idaho/ Washington

@peregrine i saw your DKOK army, very sick! obviously you love forgeworld and by the looks of it have tried the new DKOK army that i believe was part of IA12. Whats your take? Like i stated earlier, i dont have any forgeworld, its just out of my reach currently which is why i stick to codex stuff but i do regularly oogle over forgeworld models and when i start getting some i wanted to either go DKOK, SM legion, or SM assault vanguard (the badab war one i believe). So my question to you is whats your take on DKOK, i read the IA3 one you have in the forums over the eylsian drop troopers, well written but as you know im not a flier fan but it was still good tho.

Any other advise on forgeworld stuff?

oh and peregrine, your advise is solid but please dont patronize me over my distaste of fliers, i dont want to be just arguing like talore is now when i come here to learn. No offence but yeah im here to learn new stuff.

I would sign this contract but I already ate the potato

GENERATION 9: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.  
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Ohio

 kestril wrote:
 tankboy145 wrote:
 BryllCream wrote:
Problem with the missile pods is that they're ordinance so you can only fire one and snap shoot the rest. Otherwise I'd have invested in some valkyries ages ago.


No your thinking of their standard hellstrike missiles which are s8 ap 3 orndance 1 shot. The missile pods are s4 ap6 large blast, hell fury missiles are s4 ap 5 large blast 1 shot.


Ignores cover too. If it was AP 4, I'd be completely sold on the helldetta.

But think about it, If I'm only going to get a good shot in once (since I'll be primarily boosting it off board to keep le vets safe until the objective), it may as well ignore cover and have 1 better AP,plus, I get a TL lascannon for my trouble.



Thats why I dont mind the Eradicator, lately Ive been dealing with easy to kill troops hiding in dense cover. So Ive been taking an eradicator to take care of those troops and to also put a lot of wounds on horde based armies. Not sure if Im sold on the bolt boat though for the tank, I think I might try giving it plasma cannons or something else to hit harder targets as well.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 tankboy145 wrote:
 kestril wrote:
 tankboy145 wrote:
 BryllCream wrote:
Problem with the missile pods is that they're ordinance so you can only fire one and snap shoot the rest. Otherwise I'd have invested in some valkyries ages ago.


No your thinking of their standard hellstrike missiles which are s8 ap 3 orndance 1 shot. The missile pods are s4 ap6 large blast, hell fury missiles are s4 ap 5 large blast 1 shot.


Ignores cover too. If it was AP 4, I'd be completely sold on the helldetta.

But think about it, If I'm only going to get a good shot in once (since I'll be primarily boosting it off board to keep le vets safe until the objective), it may as well ignore cover and have 1 better AP,plus, I get a TL lascannon for my trouble.



Thats why I dont mind the Eradicator, lately Ive been dealing with easy to kill troops hiding in dense cover. So Ive been taking an eradicator to take care of those troops and to also put a lot of wounds on horde based armies. Not sure if Im sold on the bolt boat though for the tank, I think I might try giving it plasma cannons or something else to hit harder targets as well.


I don't really see a compelling reason to take eradicators over griffons honestly
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Indarys wrote:
I don't really see a compelling reason to take eradicators over griffons honestly


The main one that I see is if you play with multi level ruins a lot. Griffons are pretty useless at attacking a unit on the bottom floor of a ruin, as are all of the barrage weapons. A direct firing eradicator can clear it much easier. Also, you get the added longevity of a russ chassis. Other than that, flamers are the only option. A vet squad/pcs in a chimera or vendetta can work, as can a hellhound, but they can't do it at the range an eradicator can.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/08 01:43:55


The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





New Jersey

Why take eradicators or griffons, when you could take a Collossus which is better than both.

   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Why take eradicators or griffons, when you could take a Collossus which is better than both.


Colossus also can't attack units on the lower floors of ruins. Really, it all depends on what terrain you see. There are usually some two or three level ruins in games that I play, which will be the first place people put objectives.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Oklahoma City, Ok.

 Trickstick wrote:
 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Why take eradicators or griffons, when you could take a Collossus which is better than both.


Colossus also can't attack units on the lower floors of ruins. Really, it all depends on what terrain you see. There are usually some two or three level ruins in games that I play, which will be the first place people put objectives.


Hey Trickstick, ever feel like you're repeating yourself?

Hey Trickstick, ever feel like you're repeating yourself?


"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC

"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

You take eradicators over colossuses for two reasons - AV14, and they can take cheap hull weapons. For the price of a medusa and a colossus you get an eradicator with multimeltas and a lascannon which are nearly as good, killing-power-wise, but costs 70 points cheaper. And you get AV14.

You take either of those above griffons because griffons are crappy. Who cares if you get more shots per point that are a bit more accurate if you don't really do any damage when you hit? It would be like spending 30 points on a proverbial docrtine that made your veterans' lasguns twin-linked when you could spend those points on meltaguns instead.



Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Ailaros wrote:
You take eradicators over colossuses for two reasons - AV14, and they can take cheap hull weapons. For the price of a medusa and a colossus you get an eradicator with multimeltas and a lascannon which are nearly as good, killing-power-wise, but costs 70 points cheaper. And you get AV14.


Except now you're stuck with both of your "tanks" on the same unit where they have to fire at the same target. If you use the "Colossus" you waste the "Medusa", if you use the "Medusa" you waste the "Colossus".

You take either of those above griffons because griffons are crappy. Who cares if you get more shots per point that are a bit more accurate if you don't really do any damage when you hit?


Because if you do the math Griffons are excellent infantry killers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Solosam47 wrote:
@peregrine i saw your DKOK army, very sick! obviously you love forgeworld and by the looks of it have tried the new DKOK army that i believe was part of IA12. Whats your take?


Haven't played it yet. It looks like it's probably a step down in power compared to a codex IG army (with FW units included), but it could be fun to play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/08 03:35:59


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Ohio

I ran an eradicator at a tourny and I would say it was excellent as it killed sniper squads hiding in cover and managed to pick off cheap units hiding in cover, couple of chaos opponents hated the eradicator blast their cheap cultists out from behind his wall on turn 1. Thought with night fight he would be safe with a 2+ but little did he know being within the 36" range meant my eradicator was going to have a good time, thats the same for the GK player who had the psyker squad sitting back with a s10 blast.

Also the eradicator can target squads on the bottom floor of ruins and builds, which actaully did indeed help me in one game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/08 03:55:31


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Yeah, and that's really what it does.

The best part is that for a pretty low amount of points you can add versatility to an anti-MSU-scoring-unit weapon, like by giving it plasma cannons and a lascannon to make it a long-range MC hunter, or a lascannon and some multimeltas to rake over fliers and other stuff that gets too close.



Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ailaros wrote:
You take eradicators over colossuses for two reasons - AV14, and they can take cheap hull weapons. For the price of a medusa and a colossus you get an eradicator with multimeltas and a lascannon which are nearly as good, killing-power-wise, but costs 70 points cheaper. And you get AV14.

You take either of those above griffons because griffons are crappy. Who cares if you get more shots per point that are a bit more accurate if you don't really do any damage when you hit? It would be like spending 30 points on a proverbial docrtine that made your veterans' lasguns twin-linked when you could spend those points on meltaguns instead.




Griffons are literally one of the best units in the guard codex.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Ohio

Indarys wrote:
 Ailaros wrote:
You take eradicators over colossuses for two reasons - AV14, and they can take cheap hull weapons. For the price of a medusa and a colossus you get an eradicator with multimeltas and a lascannon which are nearly as good, killing-power-wise, but costs 70 points cheaper. And you get AV14.

You take either of those above griffons because griffons are crappy. Who cares if you get more shots per point that are a bit more accurate if you don't really do any damage when you hit? It would be like spending 30 points on a proverbial docrtine that made your veterans' lasguns twin-linked when you could spend those points on meltaguns instead.




Griffons are literally one of the best units in the guard codex.


Yea at killing horde, not to mention if an objective is in a ruin and theres guys on the bottom floor have fun blasting them out. They are cheap but I would rather have other heavy support.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Indarys wrote:Griffons are literally one of the best units in the guard codex.

Why?

When I look at a griffon, I see an opened-topped AV12/10 vehicle. This means it's not going to survive for very long, which means it needs to do a lot of damage up-front.

I then look at its weapon. I see something that is large blast, which means it's not great against dispersed troops or monstrous creatures. I see barrage which means it can only hit the top floor of ruins and can't shoot at fliers at all. I see Heavy 1, which means it's not going to be a credible threat to vehicles or monstrous creatures without either serious S or Ap. I see something that's Ap4, which automatically discludes it from being terribly useful against anything of Sv3+ or 2+, and I see S6 which means it's pointless against monstrous creatures, and, even with ordnance, not that great against vehicles. Serious armor will have side armor of AV12 or better, and weaker armor will tend to have a jink save that the griffon can't ignore. Meanwhile, with Ap4, it's not doing anything more than stripping hullpoints from vehicles anyways most of the time.

So, to review, we have a weapons platform that's fragile, so you need to do serious damage in just a few shots. Serious damage that's not good against terminators, space marines, vehicles, monstrous creatures, or infantry in cover, especially ruins, or if they're even remotely competently displaced.

So the griffon isn't actually good against anything. On a fragile frame.

Pass on this vehicle every time.

Especially when you could take a medusa or colossus instead.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/08 06:18:04


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Ailaros wrote:
When I look at a griffon, I see an opened-topped AV12/10 vehicle. This means it's not going to survive for very long, which means it needs to do a lot of damage up-front.


When I look at the Griffon I see a fairly small model that doesn't need LOS to shoot. This means it can often have a 1+ invulnerable save, which is much better than mere AV 14.

I see something that's Ap4, which automatically discludes it from being terribly useful against anything of Sv3+ or 2+,


And this is where you're wrong. Even with only AP 4 the Griffon's extremely cheap cost and excellent accuracy make it decent against MEQs by sheer volume of fire. Even the Colossus isn't beating the Griffon by a huge margin.

It's the same reason the Bane Wolf is worse than the Hellhound against marines: the Hellhound may only have AP 4, but it gets so many more hits that it doesn't matter.

So the griffon isn't actually good against anything.


Only if you're bad at math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ailaros wrote:
The best part is that for a pretty low amount of points you can add versatility to an anti-MSU-scoring-unit weapon, like by giving it plasma cannons and a lascannon to make it a long-range MC hunter, or a lascannon and some multimeltas to rake over fliers and other stuff that gets too close.


No, that would be the worst part. Instead of looking at it as versatility you should recognize that what you're doing is spending points on anti-tank weapons and then putting them on an anti-infantry unit instead of on a separate anti-tank unit. So instead of having anti-tank weapons shooting at tanks and anti-infantry weapons shooting at infantry you're always wasting half your unit.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/06/08 06:38:27


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

I don't get why people love the Vendetta so much. It's a AV 12 vehicle with 3 TL Lascannons. The Exterminator can do it's job (Popping AV 11/12 vehicles with ease) and, if equipped properly, is better against AV 14 to boot. Also, an Exterminator will pop those things early before the opponent get their nasty contents up. The only thing the Vendetta does well is anti flier (My Vendetta downed a Helldrake the first time it shot at it. Made my day) work and putting guys on back objectives.

The transport capacity is negligible, TBH. If the Vendetta could carry Space Marines that would make it much better but all you're transporting is T3 5+ save schmucks. If you put them on the back objectives, they are vulnerable to being gunned down by anything with a decent weapon. Sure, you could just put them on objectives that have been left completely open but by that time the game is over and the only contributions that veterans made was 1 VP. And situations where the objectives are open are not all that common. A lot of the time, you will have sunk in a bunch of points for a unit that is only useful situationally.

And, to be honest, if the opponents backfield is open to being capped by T3 5+ schmucks you probably didn't even need those VPs anyway.

Disclaimer: This is an argument against Vendettas being an auto include in nearly any list. I realize that their usefulness varies on Meta (It can be worthless in some metas but be a godsend in others) but people shouldn't spam "Your list needs more vendettas!". I also realize that they are good in aircav lists since... it's an aircav list.


Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 TheCustomLime wrote:
I don't get why people love the Vendetta so much.


Because it does so many things for so few points: it's a decent vehicle killer, an excellent flyer killer, and a vital transport. All for much less than anything that can beat it at even one of those jobs.

The Exterminator can do it's job (Popping AV 11/12 vehicles with ease)


Not really. The LR Exterminator has two TL ACs and a single LC for 150 points, compared to the Vendetta's 3x TL LCs for 130 points.

And of course the Exterminator can't even attempt to compete in the AA role, which is the bigger reason to take a Vendetta.

The transport capacity is negligible,


Err, lol? Since when is the ability to deliver a vet squad or CCS full of melta/plasma "negligible"?

If you put them on the back objectives, they are vulnerable to being gunned down by anything with a decent weapon.


Which is why you wait until late in the game to do it. You have two choices with a Vendetta, you can go for the immediate damage and hope your infantry survive, or you can hold them back for later to claim objectives.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/08 07:20:12


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Gangly Grot Rebel



Scotland

 Solosam47 wrote:
@peregrine i saw your DKOK army, very sick! obviously you love forgeworld and by the looks of it have tried the new DKOK army that i believe was part of IA12. Whats your take? Like i stated earlier, i dont have any forgeworld, its just out of my reach currently which is why i stick to codex stuff but i do regularly oogle over forgeworld models and when i start getting some i wanted to either go DKOK, SM legion, or SM assault vanguard (the badab war one i believe). So my question to you is whats your take on DKOK, i read the IA3 one you have in the forums over the eylsian drop troopers, well written but as you know im not a flier fan but it was still good tho.

Any other advise on forgeworld stuff?

oh and peregrine, your advise is solid but please dont patronize me over my distaste of fliers, i dont want to be just arguing like talore is now when i come here to learn. No offence but yeah im here to learn new stuff.


I've played with the DkoK assault brigade once, and its a great fun list, hopefully I can squeeze in another game this weekend if the missus lets me!

I love being able to take griffons and hydras as elites especially as you can upgrade the griffons to caracass which gives them two firing modes, normal and S5, shred, gets hot (which you can reroll) ignores cover. Comparing that to, say, a dark angels whirlwind, and it is better in every way (if slightly more expensive) and keeps your heavy choices free.

The other great thing about this list is that your platoons recycle. Not only does that suit the massed infantry assault wave that I feel DKoK would make it is also a lot of fun to play with. All the guardsmen have krak grenades and I was cheerfully charging them at a wraith knight. I give each squad a melta gun for added oomph and assault whenever possible.

As for my ordanance, I have a question, are enclosed hulls worth it? My instinct says no but all of the tanks I've bought are Armageddon patterns so its not quite WYSIWYG as I'm playing it now...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/08 09:32:20


I'm a god damned sexual Tyrannosaurus.
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 jamin484 wrote:
As for my ordanance, I have a question, are enclosed hulls worth it? My instinct says no but all of the tanks I've bought are Armageddon patterns so its not quite WYSIWYG as I'm playing it now...


Not worth it IMO, the benefit is too situational (you have to take a damage result that the enclosed crew compartment helps you with, but not so many that you're just shaken and useless or die to hull point loss) and the point cost is too high.

As for the Armageddon-pattern tanks my solution is to leave the back doors off when I'm playing so they're technically not enclosed.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ailaros wrote:
Indarys wrote:Griffons are literally one of the best units in the guard codex.

Why?

When I look at a griffon, I see an opened-topped AV12/10 vehicle. This means it's not going to survive for very long, which means it needs to do a lot of damage up-front.

I then look at its weapon. I see something that is large blast, which means it's not great against dispersed troops or monstrous creatures. I see barrage which means it can only hit the top floor of ruins and can't shoot at fliers at all. I see Heavy 1, which means it's not going to be a credible threat to vehicles or monstrous creatures without either serious S or Ap. I see something that's Ap4, which automatically discludes it from being terribly useful against anything of Sv3+ or 2+, and I see S6 which means it's pointless against monstrous creatures, and, even with ordnance, not that great against vehicles. Serious armor will have side armor of AV12 or better, and weaker armor will tend to have a jink save that the griffon can't ignore. Meanwhile, with Ap4, it's not doing anything more than stripping hullpoints from vehicles anyways most of the time.

So, to review, we have a weapons platform that's fragile, so you need to do serious damage in just a few shots. Serious damage that's not good against terminators, space marines, vehicles, monstrous creatures, or infantry in cover, especially ruins, or if they're even remotely competently displaced.

So the griffon isn't actually good against anything. On a fragile frame.

Pass on this vehicle every time.

Especially when you could take a medusa or colossus instead.




Let's do the math on Griffon vs Colossus.

Colossus costs about double the price of the griffon. So with a griffon you get 1.86 large blasts for the colossus's 1.

Let's assume, for argument, 2 griffons are shooting at 5 MEQs. It's difficult to do the math on scattering, obviously, so I'll give a scatter roll a (very generous imo) as hitting 2.5 marines.

Both weapons wound on anything but. The colossus will wound (and outright kill) 3.33 marines on average. The griffon(s) will wound 6.13 marines, killing 2.

That's in the absolute best case scenerio, point for point, you kill 1.33 more marine.

Let's look at TEQ.

Same as above, but the colussus kills 0.55 TEQs and the griffon(s) kill 1.

GEQ? Well, there the Colussus kills 3.33 and the griffons kill 6.

For every target besides MEQ, the griffon kills nearly double the colussus, point for point. In my personal meta, home objectives are usually held by low-cost troops like grots or cultists. My griffons have been invaluable at sweeping them off objectives. That may be different for you, but griffons at only a tiny point cost can be slotted into nearly any army singly if you need them, and are much more versatile. They also have a larger useful firing range, as colussi run into minimum range issues at 24 inches. Admittedly, griffon's max range is 48, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've not been able to shoot a griffon at what I've wanted to shoot it at because it's been out of range. The minimum range of 24 is much more worrying.

I don't feel like doubling the points for 1 more AP is really a great deal, not to mention the nosedive in accuracy; its somewhat akin to buying Stormtroopers just for their hotshot lasguns.
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Sunshine Coast

I don't like the Griffin myself. I tend to run Earthshaker Gun Carriages same points but better gun if I run an allied psyker with Div I can make them just as accurate. They can also take a better hit from Anti-Tank guns but suffer from barrage and combat.

I've never played a DKoK army so if there elites they could be of some use.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/08 11:06:58


 
   
Made in gb
Gangly Grot Rebel



Scotland

 Sinji wrote:
I don't like the Griffin myself. I tend to run Earthshaker Gun Carriages same points but better gun if I run an allied psyker with Div I can make them just as accurate. They can also take a better hit from Anti-Tank guns but suffer from barrage and combat.

I've never played a DKoK army so if there elites they could be of some use.


They are elites but you cannot take heavy artillery with the assault brigade list so no gun carriages. I was going to make a base for my tanks with sandbags and the like so I could run them as artillery, representing hull down dug in self propelled guns. They seem a bit OP to me, especially given their cost....


I'm a god damned sexual Tyrannosaurus.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Oklahoma City, Ok.

 Peregrine wrote:

Not really. The LR Exterminator has two TL ACs and a single LC for 150 points, compared to the Vendetta's 3x TL LCs for 130 points.


Actually it's 165 for the LC, 150 for HHB.

"But i'm more than just a little curious, how you're planning to go about making your amends, to the dead?" -The Noose-APC

"Little angel go away
Come again some other day
The devil has my ear today
I'll never hear a word you say" Weak and Powerless - APC

 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Ohio

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I don't get why people love the Vendetta so much. It's a AV 12 vehicle with 3 TL Lascannons. The Exterminator can do it's job (Popping AV 11/12 vehicles with ease) and, if equipped properly, is better against AV 14 to boot. Also, an Exterminator will pop those things early before the opponent get their nasty contents up. The only thing the Vendetta does well is anti flier (My Vendetta downed a Helldrake the first time it shot at it. Made my day) work and putting guys on back objectives.

The transport capacity is negligible, TBH. If the Vendetta could carry Space Marines that would make it much better but all you're transporting is T3 5+ save schmucks. If you put them on the back objectives, they are vulnerable to being gunned down by anything with a decent weapon. Sure, you could just put them on objectives that have been left completely open but by that time the game is over and the only contributions that veterans made was 1 VP. And situations where the objectives are open are not all that common. A lot of the time, you will have sunk in a bunch of points for a unit that is only useful situationally.

And, to be honest, if the opponents backfield is open to being capped by T3 5+ schmucks you probably didn't even need those VPs anyway.

Disclaimer: This is an argument against Vendettas being an auto include in nearly any list. I realize that their usefulness varies on Meta (It can be worthless in some metas but be a godsend in others) but people shouldn't spam "Your list needs more vendettas!". I also realize that they are good in aircav lists since... it's an aircav list.



Exterminator good against enemy av14? well if the MM really get you close enough to where you get that 2d6 bonus hopefully your tank is even alive. If its a monlith and its that close there are probably a ton of warriors that are about to glance that tank to death regardless. If its land raider then theres probably a death star that going to assault and kill your tank and everything around it.If its another russ, well I suppose you get lucky and get to kill av14, that is if guards bs3 doesnt fail you.

Vendettas have their 3 twinlinked lascannons which pretty much dominates any other flier in the game, is one of the cheaper fliers in the game as well. Transport capacity is a must. IG struggles at capturing the opponents objectives if you arent playing mech so even if your vendetta stays in reserves until turn 4 then it flies on and shoots something and hopes to kill whatever it is, then turn 5 fly over an objective and fry what on it, to either contest or capture, Ive honestly won a few games because my vendetta was in reserves so late and I managed to come on and drop on an objective last turn and contest or capture for the win. If you dont use the transport capacity of the vendetta your not using all of the 130pts you paid.

 
   
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Indarys wrote:Let's do the math on Griffon vs Colossus.

A few things.

Firstly, you can't just compare two griffons to a single colossus. This is because those two griffons are going to be in a squad, which, even with accurate bombardment, can adversely effect accuracy. That is, of course, unless 2 of your 3 HS slots are griffons, which would be crazy.

Secondly, comparing the colossuses to griffons, then you've got to look at the real differences. Neither of them are an anti-TEq weapons, for example. Really, what you've got to look at is Sv3+ or worse infantry. In this case, in the NOT bsest-case-scenario, you painted the colossus as being merely 50% better. Moreover, you looked at a weapon that ignores cover save, and did absolutely no math with regards to cover saves. Of course the griffon is going to be more efficient against Sv4+ infantry NOT in cover.

What you've really got to look at is those scouts hiding on an objective. That can be digging out infantry with a 2+ save. A 2+ save that becomes NO SAVE with a colossus. The strategic impact of that is huge, while the griffon is just plinking.

Plus, why would you take a weapon just to kill Sv4+ or worse infantry out in the open? It's not like you get a bunch of free lasguns or heavy bolters everywhere in your army. Why waste an HS slot on something you're already doing plenty well anyways?



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Spoiler:

 Peregrine wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
I don't get why people love the Vendetta so much.


Because it does so many things for so few points: it's a decent vehicle killer, an excellent flyer killer, and a vital transport. All for much less than anything that can beat it at even one of those jobs.

The Exterminator can do it's job (Popping AV 11/12 vehicles with ease)


Not really. The LR Exterminator has two TL ACs and a single LC for 150 points, compared to the Vendetta's 3x TL LCs for 130 points.

And of course the Exterminator can't even attempt to compete in the AA role, which is the bigger reason to take a Vendetta.

The transport capacity is negligible,


Err, lol? Since when is the ability to deliver a vet squad or CCS full of melta/plasma "negligible"?

If you put them on the back objectives, they are vulnerable to being gunned down by anything with a decent weapon.


Which is why you wait until late in the game to do it. You have two choices with a Vendetta, you can go for the immediate damage and hope your infantry survive, or you can hold them back for later to claim objectives.



1. Okay, I will concede that what it does it does well for it's points but it isn't the god mode vehicle that everyone says it is. It's just three Lascannons. It's not like the guard codex is hurting for them. Sure, it's three Lascannons for like 130 points and it can kill flyers but that doesn't make it like the best unit in 40k (I know you didn't make this statement, Peregine, I'm just trying to address this assertion in general). Note, I am not saying that the Vendetta is a bad vehicle. Far from it. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be an auto take for anything coming from Codex: Imperial Guard.

2. The Exterminator Autocannon will nail an AV12 vehicle on 4s compared to the Vendettas 3s and has one more shot. It can do it earlier, is comparatively durable and it can take a ton of upgrades to boot. Yeah, of course the fact the Vendetta can do the same for cheaper (Especially when taking upgrades) is a valid point but I'm trying to argue from an alpha strike point of view. By the time the Vendetta shows up, the nasties inside that vehicle may have gotten into just the right position. Also, I've conceded that the Vendetta is a great flyer killer and if you see a lot of flyers it is something to be considered.

3. Okay, maybe negligible is too strong of a word but it isn't all that great either. Like I said, the guys inside are T3 5+. By the time they are in a situation to get plopped on a backfield objective, it is likely too late for them to do anything meaningful and, besides, by that point you really don't need those VPs. On the other hand, if you face off against fast moving aggressive armies I can see how this would be effective. Like I said, the usefulness of the things is highly dependent on your meta.




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Dont forget turn 1 has a chance of being night fight resulting in your exterminator possibly not doing anything. The Vendetta also may not come in until turn 2 or even until turn 4, its hit or miss sometimes but thats also why its transport capacity and dropping troops on an objective late game could really save you. This also all depends on how strong your ground force is doing at holding its own objectives to.

 
   
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 Ailaros wrote:
Indarys wrote:Let's do the math on Griffon vs Colossus.

A few things.

Firstly, you can't just compare two griffons to a single colossus. This is because those two griffons are going to be in a squad, which, even with accurate bombardment, can adversely effect accuracy. That is, of course, unless 2 of your 3 HS slots are griffons, which would be crazy.

Secondly, comparing the colossuses to griffons, then you've got to look at the real differences. Neither of them are an anti-TEq weapons, for example. Really, what you've got to look at is Sv3+ or worse infantry. In this case, in the NOT bsest-case-scenario, you painted the colossus as being merely 50% better. Moreover, you looked at a weapon that ignores cover save, and did absolutely no math with regards to cover saves. Of course the griffon is going to be more efficient against Sv4+ infantry NOT in cover.

What you've really got to look at is those scouts hiding on an objective. That can be digging out infantry with a 2+ save. A 2+ save that becomes NO SAVE with a colossus. The strategic impact of that is huge, while the griffon is just plinking.

Plus, why would you take a weapon just to kill Sv4+ or worse infantry out in the open? It's not like you get a bunch of free lasguns or heavy bolters everywhere in your army. Why waste an HS slot on something you're already doing plenty well anyways?





Being in a squadron doesn't make accuracy worse at all. If anything, it makes it better.

And all barrage weapons ignore cover, so the only time "cover saves" even come into play is "killing things in area terrain cover" which is a very very limited profile. Those scouts hiding on an objective behind an aegis get exactly the same cover save from a griffon as they do from a colossus, which is to say, zero.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 00:02:21


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

If you were playing a game that didn't have forests or ruins, but only had lines of sandbags and buildings, then yes, griffons would be better. I don't know if I've ever played a game without them, and pretty much every game I've seen on battle reports has had at least one ruins.

In this case, it's the griffon that's the niche weapon - good for metas that don't have area terrain in a game where most people (apparently other than your particular FLGS) use them.

And putting artillery into a squadron doesn't make it more accurate, it just narrows the band of possible inaccuracies towards the middle of the range.


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
 
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