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Pretty much went how I expected.. I've played a game against Daemons with my Nids and as soon as my flyrants were in shadows range on turn 2, my opponents army crapped all over itself. Daemons are terribly reliant on psychic powers.

Of course, I don't expect it to last long. Psychic defense is going the way of the dodo. :(

I do think Fateweaver is pretty much a necessity at this point. I've seen too many games where Daemons are up big then go on to lose after the warp decides to weaken their armour and randomly make their own troops dissappear.

 hippesthippo wrote:
Pretty much went how I expected.. I've played a game against Daemons with my Nids and as soon as my flyrants were in shadows range on turn 2, my opponents army crapped all over itself. Daemons are terribly reliant on psychic powers.

Of course, I don't expect it to last long. Psychic defense is going the way of the dodo. :(

I really hope so. I expected a nerf to Runes of Warding, perhaps reducing the range from board-wide to 12" or something, but they completely removed the effect. I think the two armies I'm hoping get updated first are Tyranids and Space Wolves.

POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Tyranids:
How 'bout that Warpstorm table?

Well, it certainly was interesting! There's an old saw about plans not surviving contact with the enemy; Jim demonstrated that admirably by stealing the initiative & vaporising 304 pts worth of 'stealers right out of the gate. That definitely put me back on my heels at the outset, and I made some initial mistakes as a result - Swarmy should have barreled into the Screamers right away, leaving the Gargoyles free to go lock down his Soulgrinder for a few turns. In hindsight, the Flyrant didn't have to charge the Soulgrinder, but that's a fight he should have won handily (WS 8 vs WS 3); Jim's saves made a serious difference there.

The Zoanthropes Gating was one of those desperation moves that looks inspired, since it worked. I do apologize for the distance mistake, as this was the first time I've ever used that power, but I don't think it would have changed things dramatically - the 'thropes would have landed in front of the Horrors, instead of behind, but the nearest Soulgrinder was stuck fighting my flyrant for a full game turn anyway. Definitely an "oops" moment, though.

That said, here's what went right:
1) Termagants & Tervigons. These guys are the true workhorses of the list, and so long as they're still around, you're not out of any game. I did get a bit lucky with spawning - 2 15's without doubles in a single game is always remarkable, though the '4' nicely balances out the karma - but it fits my normal usage pattern for Tervigons. Don't spawn until you really need to!
2) Zoanthropes. These guys made a notable number of "save or die" saves against the Soul Grinder, though the Grinder also did me the favor of missing quite often. Once I lost my Genestealers, Telekine Dome was superfluous, and so their best possible role was to extend Shadows coverage to as much of Jim's army as I could manage. (Originally, the revised plan would have involved the Flyrant finishing off that Soulgrinder & then flying to collect that far-right unit of Horrors, but we all know how that worked out.)
3) Abuse of the Challenge mechanics. Jim kept expecting Swarmy to step back in at any minute to continue the fight with his Lord of Change. I, on the other hand, saw exactly zero reason to do so. In that particular fight, the 6 wounds of the (Invisible, FNP) Tervigon meant more than Swarmy's "Instant Death" attacks, and barring a lucky snake eyes result on a Daemonic Instability check, the Tervigon would have won that fight with plenty of wounds to spare.

What happens in the game goes on? I think in turn 6, I lose the "Emperor's Will" objective, and barring some really good consolidation & run moves from my 'gants fighting the Horrors alongside the Doom, I don't get it back. KPs likely remain tied, as I lose a 'gant unit to his Soulgrinder & he loses the remnants of that Horror unit fighting the Doom & we trade warlords, unless Swarmy gets a little lucky in killing the LoC without dying in return (same initiative). I think I still win the Crusade objective. If we make it to turn 7, I think I end up with all the objectives, as the 'gants would have enough time to get Jim's Emperor's Will objective, the Doom has had time to wander over to the Portalglyph, and the central Tervigon has created 1-2 more units to hold Crusade objectives.

Janthkin - I have to ask, do you find the stealers that useful? Useful enough to use them instead of 300 points of anything else?

rigeld2 wrote:
Janthkin - I have to ask, do you find the stealers that useful? Useful enough to use them instead of 300 points of anything else?

Awww, its not their fault, just a lucky seize.

I mean in general. The seize neutering them is just one of the issues I have with them in 6th.

rigeld2 wrote:
I mean in general. The seize neutering them is just one of the issues I have with them in 6th.

As I said at the beginning, they remain an experiment. I dearly loved them in 5e, but the changes to FNP, casualty removal, and cover rules has made them MUCH harder to use in 6e. So the experiment is to see whether Telekine Dome + FNP is enough to keep them viable, or if I'd be better off just painting another 20 Gargoyles and maybe a few Biovores.

 Janthkin wrote:
POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Tyranids:
In hindsight, the Flyrant didn't have to charge the Soulgrinder, but that's a fight he should have won handily (WS 8 vs WS 3); Jim's saves made a serious difference there.

Initially I wondered why you didn't swoop behind the SG and just blast him in the rear, but decided to keep my mouth shut and look up grinder stats in Army Builder...Rear AV 11 . Glad I kept my mouth shut. I think statistically it works out roughly the same ammount of damage to a SG either way and in CC you aren't getting shot by the rest of his army.

You can't really blame the dice - there was plenty of good and back luck on both sides plus daemons are even more random now. I think the daemons over extended themselves going full bore after the genestealers... Putting so much emphasis on First Blood can hurt you in the end plus it's just one victory point which is not that much in a multi objective mission such as the BAO format.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You can't really blame the dice - there was plenty of good and back luck on both sides plus daemons are even more random now. I think the daemons over extended themselves going full bore after the genestealers... Putting so much emphasis on First Blood can hurt you in the end plus it's just one victory point which is not that much in a multi objective mission such as the BAO format.

Jim was in an odd place. He didn't set up for going first by any means, which mean his shooting from the Horrors had really poor LoS & range to much of my army, aside from the 'stealers. But he didn't want to squander the stolen initiative either, as it meant a chance to get the psychic buffs going before I could get Shadows coverage.

Really, the big mistake was in moving the LoC. That was his most mobile firepower, and he landed him right in Shadows range. He might have been able to chip some wounds off my Flrant, or try to finish off the Zoeys. And I would have assaulted the Seekers into the remaining 'stealers, instead of using the Screamer fly-over attacks on them. It would have completely frozen my front lines, and left the Screamers available to do fly-over attacks on something else (like a partially-wounded Flyrant, maybe?).

Lots of ways it could have played out. But for the LoC thing, I understand most of what he did.

We'll have to flip this match-up, Jim, and try my Daemons against your Tyranids.

Hi guys, I'm out of town currently so have limited access to the Internet. I'll get to more responses later when I get back.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You can't really blame the dice - there was plenty of good and back luck on both sides plus daemons are even more random now. I think the daemons over extended themselves going full bore after the genestealers... Putting so much emphasis on First Blood can hurt you in the end plus it's just one victory point which is not that much in a multi objective mission such as the BAO format.

It's not so much as trying to get First Blood as it is an opportunity to try to eliminate a very dangerous threat as well as board control. I believe whoever can control the middle here will most likely be the winner. I didn't want Kevin to be able ti establish control of the middle.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Janthkin wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You can't really blame the dice - there was plenty of good and back luck on both sides plus daemons are even more random now. I think the daemons over extended themselves going full bore after the genestealers... Putting so much emphasis on First Blood can hurt you in the end plus it's just one victory point which is not that much in a multi objective mission such as the BAO format.

Jim was in an odd place. He didn't set up for going first by any means, which mean his shooting from the Horrors had really poor LoS & range to much of my army, aside from the 'stealers. But he didn't want to squander the stolen initiative either, as it meant a chance to get the psychic buffs going before I could get Shadows coverage.

Really, the big mistake was in moving the LoC. That was his most mobile firepower, and he landed him right in Shadows range. He might have been able to chip some wounds off my Flrant, or try to finish off the Zoeys. And I would have assaulted the Seekers into the remaining 'stealers, instead of using the Screamer fly-over attacks on them. It would have completely frozen my front lines, and left the Screamers available to do fly-over attacks on something else (like a partially-wounded Flyrant, maybe?).

Lots of ways it could have played out. But for the LoC thing, I understand most of what he did.

We'll have to flip this match-up, Jim, and try my Daemons against your Tyranids.

Sure thing, buddy.

Well I think stealing the init kind of took you out of your original game plan since you perceived a golden opportunity. Certainly it was to an extent but I would have probably played more conservatively. Your army is quite mobile so I understand your decision to just go for it. : )

Regarding the LoC/GTervigon challenge with the Swarmlord/SG standing by:
Since models in challenges only count as being in base-to-base with each other, the Swarmlord and SG would pile in to try to base each other.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Regarding the LoC/GTervigon challenge with the Swarmlord/SG standing by:
Since models in challenges only count as being in base-to-base with each other, the Swarmlord and SG would pile in to try to base each other.

Right, but as noted before - it was physically impossible for them to do so, because of intervening impassable terrain.

 Janthkin wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Regarding the LoC/GTervigon challenge with the Swarmlord/SG standing by:
Since models in challenges only count as being in base-to-base with each other, the Swarmlord and SG would pile in to try to base each other.

Right, but as noted before - it was physically impossible for them to do so, because of intervening impassable terrain.

Then as they are separate units from the models in a challenge, wouldn't they be forced to consolidate instead because of the rules regarding combat resolution? The point i'm making is it just doesn't make sense for 4 single-model units to be standing around each other, while only 2 can actually hurt each other. The non-combatants were separate units from either units engaging in a challenge so they probably should have consolidated. Maybe.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Regarding the LoC/GTervigon challenge with the Swarmlord/SG standing by:
Since models in challenges only count as being in base-to-base with each other, the Swarmlord and SG would pile in to try to base each other.

Right, but as noted before - it was physically impossible for them to do so, because of intervening impassable terrain.

Then as they are separate units from the models in a challenge, wouldn't they be forced to consolidate instead because of the rules regarding combat resolution? The point i'm making is it just doesn't make sense for 4 single-model units to be standing around each other, while only 2 can actually hurt each other. The non-combatants were separate units from either units engaging in a challenge so they probably should have consolidated. Maybe.

Who knows? They (obviously) weren't far enough apart to be automatically removed from the combat, and if just being unable to swing broke a unit out of combat, than any time 2 independent characters were locked in a challenge, and one supporting unit was there, they'd be required to split off as well. We know that's not the case, per the bonus rerolls rules.

Odd scenario, doesn't come up often.

I thought models in a challenge were moved to the side. If this is the case, then the two challenging models could be physically picked up to allow room for the other models who were engaged to touch.

Also can you make a charge against a model you can not fight in combat? Can termagants charge a Land Raider in 6th edition? That might have prevented the Grinder from ever charging in at all.

It is an odd scenario. Lets just leave it at that and move on.

I enjoyed the batrep btw.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I thought models in a challenge were moved to the side. If this is the case, then the two challenging models could be physically picked up to allow room for the other models who were engaged to touch.

p. 64; you don't move them to the side; you move them into base contact (per some order-of-operation rules). Here, they already were in base contact.

Also can you make a charge against a model you can not fight in combat? Can termagants charge a Land Raider in 6th edition? That might have prevented the Grinder from ever charging in at all.

Those are two different questions. As to the first, there is no general prohibition on charging a unit. As to the second, the only restriction is that a unit may not charge a vehicle if they are incapable of damaging it.

 hippesthippo wrote:
Pretty much went how I expected.. I've played a game against Daemons with my Nids and as soon as my flyrants were in shadows range on turn 2, my opponents army crapped all over itself. Daemons are terribly reliant on psychic powers.

Of course, I don't expect it to last long. Psychic defense is going the way of the dodo. :(

I do think Fateweaver is pretty much a necessity at this point. I've seen too many games where Daemons are up big then go on to lose after the warp decides to weaken their armour and randomly make their own troops dissappear.

I think Tyranids will retain their Shadows. It's fluffy and not too overpowering. If anything, I think that space wolves will probably lose their Runic Staff psychic defense if they ever get a redo and tyranids will end up with the best psychic defense, but that's just a hopeful guess on my part.

I'm not convinced about Fatey yet. Will start using him again in my LoC-N-Load build to see what sort of impact he provides.

 Janthkin wrote:
POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Tyranids:
How 'bout that Warpstorm table?

Well, it certainly was interesting! There's an old saw about plans not surviving contact with the enemy; Jim demonstrated that admirably by stealing the initiative & vaporising 304 pts worth of 'stealers right out of the gate. That definitely put me back on my heels at the outset, and I made some initial mistakes as a result - Swarmy should have barreled into the Screamers right away, leaving the Gargoyles free to go lock down his Soulgrinder for a few turns. In hindsight, the Flyrant didn't have to charge the Soulgrinder, but that's a fight he should have won handily (WS 8 vs WS 3); Jim's saves made a serious difference there.

The Zoanthropes Gating was one of those desperation moves that looks inspired, since it worked. I do apologize for the distance mistake, as this was the first time I've ever used that power, but I don't think it would have changed things dramatically - the 'thropes would have landed in front of the Horrors, instead of behind, but the nearest Soulgrinder was stuck fighting my flyrant for a full game turn anyway. Definitely an "oops" moment, though.

That said, here's what went right:
1) Termagants & Tervigons. These guys are the true workhorses of the list, and so long as they're still around, you're not out of any game. I did get a bit lucky with spawning - 2 15's without doubles in a single game is always remarkable, though the '4' nicely balances out the karma - but it fits my normal usage pattern for Tervigons. Don't spawn until you really need to!
2) Zoanthropes. These guys made a notable number of "save or die" saves against the Soul Grinder, though the Grinder also did me the favor of missing quite often. Once I lost my Genestealers, Telekine Dome was superfluous, and so their best possible role was to extend Shadows coverage to as much of Jim's army as I could manage. (Originally, the revised plan would have involved the Flyrant finishing off that Soulgrinder & then flying to collect that far-right unit of Horrors, but we all know how that worked out.)
3) Abuse of the Challenge mechanics. Jim kept expecting Swarmy to step back in at any minute to continue the fight with his Lord of Change. I, on the other hand, saw exactly zero reason to do so. In that particular fight, the 6 wounds of the (Invisible, FNP) Tervigon meant more than Swarmy's "Instant Death" attacks, and barring a lucky snake eyes result on a Daemonic Instability check, the Tervigon would have won that fight with plenty of wounds to spare.

What happens in the game goes on? I think in turn 6, I lose the "Emperor's Will" objective, and barring some really good consolidation & run moves from my 'gants fighting the Horrors alongside the Doom, I don't get it back. KPs likely remain tied, as I lose a 'gant unit to his Soulgrinder & he loses the remnants of that Horror unit fighting the Doom & we trade warlords, unless Swarmy gets a little lucky in killing the LoC without dying in return (same initiative). I think I still win the Crusade objective. If we make it to turn 7, I think I end up with all the objectives, as the 'gants would have enough time to get Jim's Emperor's Will objective, the Doom has had time to wander over to the Portalglyph, and the central Tervigon has created 1-2 more units to hold Crusade objectives.

Thanks, Kev. Added to my my main report on p.1.

 wyomingfox wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:
POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Tyranids:
In hindsight, the Flyrant didn't have to charge the Soulgrinder, but that's a fight he should have won handily (WS 8 vs WS 3); Jim's saves made a serious difference there.

Initially I wondered why you didn't swoop behind the SG and just blast him in the rear, but decided to keep my mouth shut and look up grinder stats in Army Builder...Rear AV 11 . Glad I kept my mouth shut. I think statistically it works out roughly the same ammount of damage to a SG either way and in CC you aren't getting shot by the rest of his army.

I actually don't believe he had enough movement to do that, considering that he was more than 24" away from my grinder initially and the frame of the grinder is rather huge.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Regarding the LoC/GTervigon challenge with the Swarmlord/SG standing by:
Since models in challenges only count as being in base-to-base with each other, the Swarmlord and SG would pile in to try to base each other.

Right, but as noted before - it was physically impossible for them to do so, because of intervening impassable terrain.

Then as they are separate units from the models in a challenge, wouldn't they be forced to consolidate instead because of the rules regarding combat resolution? The point i'm making is it just doesn't make sense for 4 single-model units to be standing around each other, while only 2 can actually hurt each other. The non-combatants were separate units from either units engaging in a challenge so they probably should have consolidated. Maybe.

I don't believe they can leave combat just like that. It's only if they are not able to consolidate into base with an enemy unit in combat that they can leave combat. Otherwise, they act as cheerleaders for some Morale Support (or whatever that rule is called).

DarthDiggler wrote:
I thought models in a challenge were moved to the side. If this is the case, then the two challenging models could be physically picked up to allow room for the other models who were engaged to touch.

Also can you make a charge against a model you can not fight in combat? Can termagants charge a Land Raider in 6th edition? That might have prevented the Grinder from ever charging in at all.

There is a difference in charging a unit you cannot fight and charging a unit you cannot hurt. Actually, the BRB FAQ allows you charge a unit you cannot hurt unless it's a vehicle (so no termagants charging a LR). It might not be a smart idea to charge a unit that you can't fight, but if you have another character, you can swap the challengers next turn even though you can't fight this turn.

Excellent report, it looks like the dice gods were having some fun that day...

Daemons are weak sauce!

 Hedgehog wrote:
Excellent report, it looks like the dice gods were having some fun that day...

That's just how it goes with daemons.

In the future, I will give Fatey another try to see if I can minimize the interference of the dice gods.

 poppa G wrote:
Daemons are weak sauce!

Weak or not, they're a blast to play.

Picture an emotional roller coaster: "yes, next turn I will crush the enemies....no!!! what happened to my unit.....haha, feel the wrath of my invincible monster....doh! damn Grimoire.....lol"