Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2013/06/05 16:14:29
Subject: 2K 50 Shades of Pink Daemons vs Hive Fleet Janthkin (Completed)
Got a game in with Kevin. This is a practice game for the ATC tournament that we are both planning to go to. Kevin is trying to make genestealers work in his army. I am just playing around with my daemons (won't be bringing them however).
Also, this game was played before I got my new Seekers of Slaanesh back from Frontline Gaming so I still had to use proxies for my seekers.
This is not going to be an easy fight. It never is against Kevin (aka Janthkin). Janthkin is one of the most skilled tyranid players I have ever played against (though I must admit that the number of good tyranid players I've played against is rather small). Nevertheless, he is a very tactical and calculating player who really knows how to get 110% out of his army. Nothing is wasted, everything is milked for all its worth. When going up against Janthkin, you can't really afford to make many mistakes because he will punish you if you do. His nids are a terror to most of the armies in our area and he would win many our local tournaments.
With that said, however, I am quite confident of my chances against his army. I have played against Janthkin's bugs numerous times and as a fairly successful tyranid player myself, know the ins-and-the-outs of the bugs in general. His army's most dangerous component is Shadows in the Warp and that has been the edge to give him the victory in several of our previous games (I normally run psychic-heavy armies with the exception of my crons). However, I know to try to stay out of Shadows range if possible. I also have enough shooting with my horrors and baleful torrent from my grinders to really put the hurt on his units (I've also got 2x Perfect Timing to remove any cover that he may have). Without Iron Arm (he didn't get a single Iron Arm, though the Swarmlord did get Invisibility), I dare his MC's to move into range of my horror shooting. I guarantee you that they won't last. Finally, his gribblies won't be able to touch my grinders. Even his stealers will have a hard time against them. And if he does assault, I am primed for a dangerous counter-assault with my LoC, screamers, seekers and 2 more grinders.
Despite the fact that Shadows can really screw me over, I am more than confident that I can beat them. As for psychic powers, both of my opponent's tervigons get Endurance and Swarmy gets Invisibility but none of them gets Iron Arm. I get Precognition for my FMC, 2x Prescience and 2x Perfect Timing for my Heralds and Flickering Fire for all my Tzeentch psykers. However, I don't believe I got Misfortune (sorry, lost my notes on my psychic powers).
Doom: Psychic Shriek
Zoanthrope 1: Gate of Infinity, Telekine Dome
Z2: Objuration Mechanicum, Assail
Z3: Enfeeble, Hemorrhage
Map of terrain.
Daemon Crusade objectives (3).
Daemon Emperor's Will objective.
Tyranid Crusade (2) and Emperor's Will objectives
Tyranid deployment. 1 unit of gants in reserves. Genestealers will infiltrate.
Basically, Janthkin will be using the large, central LOS-blocking terrain to deny most of my shooting.
Daemon deployment. Tzeentch grinder (with Phlegm) on the very left (in the ruins). Small 11-horror unit on the very right flank without a Herald. 2 Heralds with the block of 16-horrors in the middle ruins.
Screamers and my Warlord out of LOS behind the ruins.
IG rough riders and empty bases are proxies for my seekers. My actual seekers didn't make it in time for this battle.
Kevin then infiltrates his stealers about 18" away from my forces.
Well, what do you know....I steal the initiative!!!
I get all my psychic powers off. I cast Forewarning and use the Grimoire to give my screamers re-rollable 2++'s.
Daemons advance.
I'm looking to cripple his stealers.
I make a mistake by pushing my LoC into range of Shadows in the Warp. This is because I wanted to make sure he has LOS to the stealers without cover. This would also later mess up his shooting.
Herald drops off the Portaglyph and it scatters way off course.
The Portaglyph then produces 5 more horrors.
I then roll on the Warp Table and get ! Everyone daemon unit has to take a Daemonic Stability test!!!
Fortunately, I only lose a total of 2 horrors. I got lucky with my DI tests....it could have been a lot worse.
Screamers turbo over the stealers, killing a few.
Overall, shooting (and the screamers) kill off 15 stealers!!!
Tzeentch grinder spits at the zoans and insta-gibs one of them.
The rest of my shooting combine to kill 6 gargoyles as well. It would have been more, but that was the range of damage that I could allocate to.
Then both his stealers and gargoyles fail their test against Warpflame, resulting in another 1 stealer and 2 gargoyles killed.
Darn! Had I not moved my LoC into Shadows range, I should have wiped out his stealers for First Blood. But I guess I can live with just 2 stealers remaining.
Seekers spread out.
No assault. Instead, I leave my 2++ screamers there for him to counter-assault.
Tyranids 1
Spoiler:
Tyranids cast their psychic powers, including Invisibility and Endurance on the Gargoyles.
Zoanthrope casts Gate of Infinity to teleport behind enemy lines. My opponent is going to sacrifice them in order to disrupt my psychic powers.
Kevin does make a mistake, however. The range for Gate is only 24" so the most he could have done was to teleport in front of my lines, not behind it.
Tervigon spawns 15 gants without running out.
Tyranids then get ready for a massive counter-assault.
Flyrant gets ready to tear my grinder a new one.
The rest of his army moves.
Hive guards take off 1 Hull Point from my Slaanesh grinder.
Tervigon casts Enfeeble on my seekers (at the beginning of his turn). Focus fire from gants and gargoyles then take out 7 seekers.
Flyrant smashes!
It's a 2-prong multi-assault between stealers, gargoyles and termagants against seekers and screamers.
His flyrant hits and glance/pens with all 3 attacks. I then make all 3 saves and hit his flyrant back for 2W.
It's a tied combat with 5 kills apiece!
1 more seeker then dies to dangerous terrain while piling in (Enfeeble causes a unit to have to move through difficult terrain, which then becomes dangerous for cavalry).
Because the seekers are hitting on 5's due to Invisibility, they only manage to kill 2 gargoyles and 1 genestealer. In return, the gargoyles actually manage to knock off 1W from the screamers.
Daemons 2
Spoiler:
This turn, I give my Warlord 2++ with Forewarning and the Grimoire.
The zoanthropes, however, mess up most of the Herald psychic powers.
Daemon movement. Horrors and grinder on the left advance.
As do the daemons on my right flank.
For the Warpstorm, I roll a 10 - +1 Inv to all daemons! This would give the screamers, seekers and grinder in combat 4++'s.
My LoC goes after the Swarmlord.
Shooting kills 8 out of 8 gants. Still no First Blood yet.
Zoanthropes again do their jobs as they mess up the shooting of all the horrors and Heralds within range of their Shadows.
My LoC must have Periled but he also causes 1W to the Swarmlord with shooting.
So it's going to be a showdown between the re-rollable 2++ vs the Instant Death that forces you to re-roll successful Inv's.
Seekers are slowly winning this war of attrition and I mean slooowwwwly.
Screamers are still fighting Invisibible gargoyles so only manage to kill 2. Lone stealer survives to deny First Blood to the daemons.
Gargoyles do 1W in return.
Of all the unlikely sources for First Blood....my grinder takes out the Flyrant with no damage in return!
VP's - Daemons: 1, Tyranids: 0
Finally, my Warlord charges his Warlord. Swarmy fails to get pass the 2++ Inv of my LoC, who in return put another 3W on Swarmy (1W remaining).
Things aren't looking good for the bugs. They're down to just 1 genestealer left. They've lost their flyrant and Swarmy is down to just 1W left. The only real damage daemons have taken is to their unit of seekers. Can the bugs come back?
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
This turn, Swarmy casts Invisibility on the tervigon, who in return casts Endurance on Swarmy.
Tervigon poops out 4 gants and gets constipated for the rest of the game. He then goes to help out the Swarmlord.
Zoanthropes cast Enfeeble on the horrors. They then get ready to assault.
His only shooters, the hive guards, fail to do anything to my grinders.
The tervigon then rushes into combat. He challenges my Warlord to help save Swarmy.
Zoans assault as well.
I can't do anything to his zoans as I need 6's to wound and he makes his saves. Zoans win combat by 2 (after Daemonic Instability tests).
What the heck! 1 damn gant still lives, tying up my seekers for another turn!
Without Invisibility, my screamers fare better....though not by much. They do manage to finally finish off the single remaining genestealer (for a VP) as well as 3 gargoyles.
VP's - Daemons: 2, Tyranids: 0
His tervigon assaults and challenges. Because of my re-rollable 2++, he fails to do any damage despite Invisibility and crushing claws. On the other hand, I roll poorly to hit (even with re-roll's due to Precognition) and only put 1W on his tervigon.
After combat, both his tervigon and Swarmlord make their It Will Not Die! saves (from Endurance) and each gain back 1W!!!
Daemons 3
Spoiler:
This turn, we have a slight "debate" on how the Grimoire works. I was under the impression that it doesn't need LOS to operate as it is not a shooting attack or a psychic power and its entry does not say that it needs LOS to function (as other abilities will normally indicate if LOS is necessary). However, Kevin says that since it does target a unit (albeit a friendly unit), that you need LOS. We decide to go with the more conservative intepretation - that it does need LOS. That actually screws with my entire strategy. I assaulted Swarmy - who is out of LOS relative to my Grimoire Herald - with my LoC based on the assumption that I could still Grimoire him. But now that I can't, Swarmy can and probably will punk my Warlord if he decides to change places with the tervigon in the challenge.
1 of my Herald dies to Perils (he must've Periled once before). Not only that, but Shadows from the zoans continue to screw with my Tzeentch psykers.
VP's - Daemons: 2, Tyranids: 1
The rest of my army moves. I move my Grimoire Herald up in order to try to get LOS to my Warlord, but It'll probably take another turn in order to do so.
Here, my Slaanesh grinder (the right bluish one) goes to help out my Warlord. My thought process was this - if Swarmy changes places with the tervigon in the challenge, then at least the grinder can threaten his tervigon, who will hopefully be weakened by my LoC.
Disaster strikes! Again, I roll a , on the Warpstorm table. Every daemon unit must test for Daemonic Instability!
This time, I lose 3 horrors from the left unit, 2 seekers and 1 horror from the right unit.
OMFG!!! I roll box-cars for my Herald's unit!!! The Herald and horrors in combat with his zoans are banished back to the Warp!!!
VP's - Daemons: 2, Tyranids: 3
Zoans then try to consolidate into terrain.
Shooting wipes out the unit of 2 gants and kills 3 gants from the newly spawned unit of 4.
VP's - Daemons: 3, Tyranids: 3
My grinder makes it into combat. However, he won't be able to fight this turn because the tervigon is still in a challenge.
My Tzeentch grinder charges into his zoans (after firing his phlegm at them). They would make every single save, both against the blast and the assault.
Seekers finally finish off the 2 gants, but I am down to only 2 seekers left.
VP's - Daemons: 4, Tyranids: 3
Remember when I said I finished off the stealers? Well, I lied. There is 1 more left, though my screamers do finish off the gargoyles.
VP's - Daemons: 4, Tyranids: 3
Finally, due to Invisibility and Endurance, my LoC fails to cause an unsaved wound to his tervigon! The tervigon would then put 2W on my LoC!
Oh, crap! My Warlord can actually die to Daemonic Instability since I will be testing currently on LD7!!!
Fortunately for me, I roll snake-eyes for my Daemonic Instability. Not only does he pass, but he regenerates all the wounds that he lost from combat this turn!
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
The Doom comes in! Without any of my grinders free, I'm going to have a hard time dealing with him.
Tyranid movement. Lone gant stands defiantly in the way of the powerful soulgrinder.
Tervigon comes out to play and goes after my Grimoire Herald's unit.
The Doom leeches 2 horrors spawned from my Portaglyph.
Shooting kills off both of my seekers.
VP's - Daemons: 4, Tyranids: 4
We then go into assault.
In combat, my opponent doesn't swap out the tervigon for Swarmy. So instead, both Swarmy and the grinder are just bystanders watching my Warlord and the tervigon fight. The LoC has problems against an Invisible and Enduranced tervigon and only causes 1W. And without the Grimoire, the tervigon causes 2W in return. Now I see why my opponent doesn't want to risk his Warlord, Swarmy, for mine. His tervigon is slowly winning this war of attrition!
Fortunately, my LoC passes his Daemonic Instability test.
Finally, the screamers finish off his lone stealer for good.
VP's - Daemons: 5, Tyranids: 4
Daemons 4
Spoiler:
Screamers go after his tervigon. I need to stop his tervigon from advancing towards both my troops and the objectives.
The Portaglyph spawns another 4 horrors.
The Warpstorm kills off 5 horrors from my Grimoire Herald's unit (basically, he is the last Herald remaining).
My grinder kills off 1 hive guard and put 1W on another.
I believe the horrors Peril while trying to shoot at the Doom but the Herald takes off 2-3W from it with his shooting.
The screamers make it into assault with the tervigon despite needing to make about a 9" charge.
Here we come up with another question. The screamers have a special S5 AP2 attack. They can change their normal attacks for 1 of these special attacks each. The question is do they get a charge bonus when they assault in this mode? This time, Kevin gave me the benefit of the doubt and the extra attack each.
It didn't matter as the screamers would flub their attacks and only cause 1W. The tervigon does no damage in return.
My grinder assaults the hive guards. I would then flub my attacks and only cause 1W to the hive guards.
Daemons are majorly sucking in combat this turn. The LoC loses to the tervigon 0-1 in combat!!! He lives with just 1W remaining.
It was a mistake to charge my grinder into assault. Now I realize that my opponent was never planning to swap out his tervigon for the Swarmlord in combat so I charged in my grinder for nothing!
Finally, after 3 turns of combat, my other grinder fails to kill any zoans still. My opponent has made every single save for them so far since Turn 1.
Like I said, some major suckage for daemons in assault this turn....
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
Last unit of gants finally come in. Even with +1 from Swarmy's Alien Cunning, they only now come in?!?
Tervigon spawns 15 gants again (that is twice this game he has spawned 15 gants without running out!).
The Doom goes after my Herald.
The lone gant (which my grinder ignored last turn) goes after my Emperor's Will objective.
I'd have no one to blame but myself if my opponent wins because of this gant.
Gants shoot down 2 horrors.
The Doom fails to leech a single sould and so assaults.
As do the gants.
My opponent is down to just 1 hive guard left.
However, I cannot kill his zoans with my other grinder.
The combination of the gants and the tervigon wipes out all of my screamers.
VP's - Daemons: 5, Tyranids: 5
I finally catch a little break in assault as my Warlord does 3W to his tervigon in combat and doesn't die in return.
Daemons 5
Spoiler:
Uh oh, I need to make a play for the objectives now. It could really be anyone's game right now. I may have a slight advantage in Crusade with perhaps a 1-objective lead. In Emperor's Will, we will probably tie and Purge the Alien could go either ways. This game turned out to be much closer than my initial domination would indicate.
I do have First Blood. However, Kevin currently has linebreaker.
Horrors head for the objective in the ruins.
I've got another Crusade objective here.
Too bad my grinder couldn't have finished off the hive guards last turn. Otherwise, I would get rid of the gants on my opponent's Emperor's Will objective.
Motherfluffer!!!
The @#&%$^;& Warpstorm wipes out my unit of 4 horrors on an objective!!!
VP's - Daemons: 5, Tyranids: 6
I can't believe this. The Warpstorm gave my opponent 3 VP's as well as denied me an objective.
However, I do shoot down his lone gant to prevent him from contesting/claiming my Emperor's Will objective.
VP's - Daemons: 6, Tyranids: 6
Unit of 3 horrors has to run back towards my objective.
The Doom kills 2 horrors in combat.
My grinder finishes off the hive guard but it just may be too little too late.
VP's - Daemons: 7, Tyranids: 6
Zoans continue to pass their saves. I swear, if my opponent wins this, I'm going to give the Tyranid MVP to his zoans and Shadows.
Or maybe they deserve Runner-up, with MVP going to my own Warpstorm.
The tervigon is reduced to just 1W remaining. He should be dead next turn.
Tyranids 5
Spoiler:
Crap....this is bad. His tervigon spawns 12 gants without running out. They then go to claim a Crusade objective.
Tervigon then goes after my grinder locked in combat. BTW, there is another Crusade objective there as well.
Other tyranid movement. Gants on his Emperor's Will objective go after my pink horrors.
Spirit Leech claims the lives of 3 horrors.
Gant shooting only kills 1 horror. I'm good, that is, until he assaults.
Instead of staying on the objective, his gants join in the Doom-Herald assault!
His tervigon assaults my grinder in the LoC-Swarmy melee.
Gants and the Doom kill off my Grimoire Herald and some horrors. I have 2 horrors remaining.
VP's - Daemons: 7, Tyranids: 7
In the main attraction, his tervigon gets a lucky pen and explodes my grinder. On the other hand, my Warlord finishes off his other tervigon.
VP's - Daemons: 8, Tyranids: 8
At this point, we had to stop because the store was closed.
He's also got his tervigon on a Crusade objective by the LoC-Swarmlord melee (his tervigon couldn't pile into combat and so just consolidated).
I've got 1 Crusade objective here.
Damn Warpstorm. Had it not killed off my unit of horrors on another Crusade objective, we would have tied Crusade with 2-2 objectives each.
Kevin has also got his Emperor's Will objective whereas I don't have mine. He takes Emperor's Will as well.
We tie in Purge the Alien with 8 VP's each.
I've got First Blood (flyrant) and Kevin's got Linebreaker (his zoans). Overall, Kevin has got Crusade (8-pts) + Emperor's Will (8-pts) + Linebreaker (2-pts). I've only got First Blood (2-pts).
Everything was just going so beautifully in the beginning. I actually felt that my army matched up really well against tyranids. With hardly any shooting on Janthkin's army, I could just shoot the crap out of his army if he didn't come towards me. I had just as deadly but much faster assault units than my opponent and a wall of armor that his gribblies couldn't do anything against. And as soon as he moved his MC's to bust my armored wall, I would counter-attack with my assault units. With re-rollable 2++'s, there isn't any assault unit that I can't handle. Even Swarmy should fall to my LoC in such a state and his stealers are in danger of getting trapped by my grinders.
Then I stole the initiative.....sweet! After the first Turn and a half, I truly felt that I had this game in the bag. With the genestealers essentially neutralized, his flyrant killed and the Swarmlord down to just 1 Wound left, I felt it was just a matter of cleaning up.
Then everything started to go wrong thereon... Where did it all go wrong?
1. First of all, I want to congratulate my opponent for a game very well played. His back was against the wall but he did not give up. He played smartly and slowly worked his way back into the game. He really utilized the terrain to his advantage as I couldn't see my guys (the LoC and screamers) to buff them up with my powerful psychic powers and the Grimoire, not to mention he was protected from my shooting. He teleported his zoans in a gutsy sacrifice to mess up my psychic powers and man, did that work BIG time. When they were in my backfield, I only probably got off 25% of my powers. I couldn't shoot and I couldn't use many of my powers. 4 measly wounds with only 3+ saves they they survived practically half of my army's offense between the shooting and assault by my grinder. Finally, he held up the units that he needed to. He stopped my mobile units - my Warlord, seekers and screamers - from rampaging through his army with the good use of his psychic powers and a little luck.
2. Of course one of the more obvious reasons for my loss is due to the Warpstorm. It killed off 1 Herald and 2 units of horrors, of which 1 was on an objective. Had it not killed off my last unit of horrors, I would have won VP's by 1 and tied in Crusade. Overall, it would have been a tie if only they had survived.
3. I admit stealing the initiative was lucky. Actually, initially, luck was on my side. I rolled a 10 on the Warp Storm once and snake-eyes (1,1) for my Warlord's Daemonic Instability test early on, thus healing him of 2W. Otherwise, he would have been dead. My grinder killed off his flyrant in assault. But then, the dice left me. I couldn't pass a 50% psychic test in the range of Shadows had my life depended on it. Seekers would whiff so badly against the gants in a combat that they should have dominated. Only 2 seekers survived after killing off all the gants!!! WTF!?! It took my Warlord the entire game just to kill a tervigon, and my Warlord almost died in the process. Warpstorm took a dump on me. Despite an extra attack, my screamers only managed to put 1W on his tervigon and then got wiped out by gants. Grinder couldn't kill his zoans despite 6 assault phases and took so long to kill his hive guards. What started off hot for me got real cold real fast.
4. I made some mistakes. I won't count assaulting Swarmy with my LoC because that was done under an assumption that my power would work (I don't consider that a mistake, but rather a misunderstanding). However, I should have known that my opponent would have to use the center terrain and should have readjusted the deployment of my horrors. I moved my LoC into range of Shadows initially. That saved my opponent from losing some more guys from my shooting. I charged my grinder into the Warlord combat only to have him be a spectator. Otherwise, he could have went and dealt with the Doom, thus freeing my Herald's unit to some offense and also to claiming my Emperor's Will objective (as well as saving me from losing a VP). I should not have assaulted his tervigon with my screamers (it still had 5W remaining). That was the cinematic thing to do (just think about the glory if my screamers were able to kill it) but it wasn't the right thing to do. I knew this but still said what the heck...I'm going for the glory. Overall, all these little mistakes add up. Had even 1 of them not been made, I could very well came out with a minor victory or even a tie.
So this was my game to lose and I lost it, partially because of the dice, partially because of the shrewd play of my opponent and partially because of my own mistakes. Despite that, I think that daemons against tyranids is not as bad a matchup as many think. Daemons definitely have the tools to deal with bugs. It might be a slightly tougher fight, but no where near tyranids vs Dark Eldar venom-spam.
Tyranids: (by Janthkin)
How 'bout that Warpstorm table?
Well, it certainly was interesting! There's an old saw about plans not surviving contact with the enemy; Jim demonstrated that admirably by stealing the initiative & vaporising 304 pts worth of 'stealers right out of the gate. That definitely put me back on my heels at the outset, and I made some initial mistakes as a result - Swarmy should have barreled into the Screamers right away, leaving the Gargoyles free to go lock down his Soulgrinder for a few turns. In hindsight, the Flyrant didn't have to charge the Soulgrinder, but that's a fight he should have won handily (WS 8 vs WS 3); Jim's saves made a serious difference there.
The Zoanthropes Gating was one of those desperation moves that looks inspired, since it worked. I do apologize for the distance mistake, as this was the first time I've ever used that power, but I don't think it would have changed things dramatically - the 'thropes would have landed in front of the Horrors, instead of behind, but the nearest Soulgrinder was stuck fighting my flyrant for a full game turn anyway. Definitely an "oops" moment, though.
That said, here's what went right:
1) Termagants & Tervigons. These guys are the true workhorses of the list, and so long as they're still around, you're not out of any game. I did get a bit lucky with spawning - 2 15's without doubles in a single game is always remarkable, though the '4' nicely balances out the karma - but it fits my normal usage pattern for Tervigons. Don't spawn until you really need to!
2) Zoanthropes. These guys made a notable number of "save or die" saves against the Soul Grinder, though the Grinder also did me the favor of missing quite often. Once I lost my Genestealers, Telekine Dome was superfluous, and so their best possible role was to extend Shadows coverage to as much of Jim's army as I could manage. (Originally, the revised plan would have involved the Flyrant finishing off that Soulgrinder & then flying to collect that far-right unit of Horrors, but we all know how that worked out.)
3) Abuse of the Challenge mechanics. Jim kept expecting Swarmy to step back in at any minute to continue the fight with his Lord of Change. I, on the other hand, saw exactly zero reason to do so. In that particular fight, the 6 wounds of the (Invisible, FNP) Tervigon meant more than Swarmy's "Instant Death" attacks, and barring a lucky snake eyes result on a Daemonic Instability check, the Tervigon would have won that fight with plenty of wounds to spare.
What happens in the game goes on? I think in turn 6, I lose the "Emperor's Will" objective, and barring some really good consolidation & run moves from my 'gants fighting the Horrors alongside the Doom, I don't get it back. KPs likely remain tied, as I lose a 'gant unit to his Soulgrinder & he loses the remnants of that Horror unit fighting the Doom & we trade warlords, unless Swarmy gets a little lucky in killing the LoC without dying in return (same initiative). I think I still win the Crusade objective. If we make it to turn 7, I think I end up with all the objectives, as the 'gants would have enough time to get Jim's Emperor's Will objective, the Doom has had time to wander over to the Portalglyph, and the central Tervigon has created 1-2 more units to hold Crusade objectives.
anonymou5 wrote: All the cool kids are bringing Demons to ATC...
Does that make me not cool?
Haha, no, we already have someone else in our team bringing daemons. He's a pure daemon player at heart (I just dabble in the Warp ) and a really good player who once won a major GT with daemons back in 5th.
This message was edited 20 times. Last update was at 2013/06/13 20:50:01
2013/06/06 23:42:09
Subject: Re:2K 50 Shades of Pink Daemons vs Hive Fleet Janthkin
Valek wrote: I think the stealers will bite the dust early on, as first turn JY2 will now profit from the stolen initiative to shoot them while they are unbuffed.
I would anyway!
Good call. Yeah, that was my plan. Almost wiped them out also so my opponent started off the game with a huge handicap already.
Dome is good but the others are pretty situational or just Mehh. Not to mention that most people I play with argue that Mechanicum can't wound fliers, which downgrades its usefullness. Leaves you at 20% per roll to get a useful power vs 33% with Bio (enfeeble/endurance). Well, I guess you can at least use gate late game to contest an objective with your zoes or score line breaker...lemonaid our of lemons and all that.
Yeah, LOS-blocking terrain is absolutely vital to tyranids. Without that huge chunk of terrain in the middle, I would've pegged this game as a win for daemons.
To sum up my thoughts at this point: my 'stealers are readily exposed to whatever he cares to do to them (they're in charge range of the Seekers, for instance), and anything on my front line is within range of at least one block of Horrors. He's going to get to buff unopposed, and likely shove at least one 2+ invulnerable unit right down my throat. I'm looking at losing a good chunk of my ability to control the board right out of the gate, and my initial plan is completely lost.
The only good news is that a) the nice piece of terrain mid-board breaks up his sight lines significantly; b) some of his units aren't quite in position to take maximum advantage of seizing (as he very properly expected to being going second); and c) I guess I get to go last, in a mission with 2 separate objective-scoring elements.
Yay.
Very well played, Kevin.
Despite essentially starting the game without your stealers and your flyrants - practically a 500-pt handicap - you fought your way back to a convincing win.
y0disisray wrote: After reading Grimoire I cant see anything that would prevent you from using it out of LoS. So far good battle I had picked the Daemons to win but with the way the warp storm has been its getting kinda close. A lot of people dislike the warp storm table however I think its great as it shows how unstable the warp actually is which is shown in the fluff. Cant wait to read the finale.
tinfoil wrote: Dang, wild fluctuations in luck/Warp energies are making this game very interesting!
I guess if you roll with Tzeentch (ha!) you'd better expect drama.
Yeah, that's for sure.
Still debating on whether to take the force-multiplying Fateweaver or the more offensive LoC. I may try out Fatey in the near future.
anonymou5 wrote: Jy2, just imagine if you had fateweaver instead of one of the locs....
Well, I only have 1 LoC.
But in my dual-LoC list (The Soul of LoC-N-Load daemons), I'll probably swap out one of the LoC's for Fateweaver.
Siphen wrote: Why can't the Soul Grinder and Swarmlord engage each other?
Page 64 of the rulebook says that, in a challenge, each model is considered to be in base contact only with the other model in the challenge. Wouldn't the Soul Grinder/Swarmlord move to be in base contact with each other?
They couldn't physically reach each other because of impassable terrain in the way.
Siphen wrote: Why can't the Soul Grinder and Swarmlord engage each other?
Page 64 of the rulebook says that, in a challenge, each model is considered to be in base contact only with the other model in the challenge. Wouldn't the Soul Grinder/Swarmlord move to be in base contact with each other?
Another thought, along the same thinking: If the soul grinder can only make base contact with a model currently involved in a challenge, and no other enemy models which it could legally engage in close combat, could the charge even be made in the first place?
Good question. I think so, but without research, I can't say with 100% certainty. May be a question for YMDC.
calypso2ts wrote: I am confused how all the Horrors died from the Warp Storm. Rolling a 12 would cause 4 wounds to the unit - since it failed its instability by 4. It looked like a full 12 Horrors were removed (well 10 plus a Herald) from that roll. Did I miss something?
Interesting game overall - I like the synergies inherent to Jy2's list, although it seems the Seekers were wasted a bit when their Rending is really ideal for taking on TMC's.
When you roll box-cars on the Daemonic Instability test, something bad happens.
Thanks, I built my list with a lot of synergy in mind. Ideally, I wanted to reach his MC's with my seekers, but with the amount of screening units my opponent had in his army, I knew that it wasn't likely going to happen unless I could wipe out his screening units first.
calypso2ts wrote: I am confused how all the Horrors died from the Warp Storm. Rolling a 12 would cause 4 wounds to the unit - since it failed its instability by 4. It looked like a full 12 Horrors were removed (well 10 plus a Herald) from that roll. Did I miss something?
Interesting game overall - I like the synergies inherent to Jy2's list, although it seems the Seekers were wasted a bit when their Rending is really ideal for taking on TMC's.
See the complete rules for Daemonic Instability; snake eyes & box cars have special results.
But those Seekers were my top-priority target, specifically because I do know what they could do to TMCs. I was very happy to be able to neutralize the unit with a single giant (free) unit of 'gants.
Yeah, your gants did a really good job delaying my seekers. I must admit that I rolled like crap for them.
Sasori wrote: I feel like the Warpstorm defeated you more than Janthkin!
The Warpstorm did hurt, but it was definitely my opponent who beat me followed by the Warpstorm and some mistakes on my part. Will go more in detail in my Post-game Analysis about this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/10 06:32:51
2013/06/10 15:34:03
Subject: 2K 50 Shades of Pink Daemons vs Hive Fleet Janthkin (Completed)
Good battle report, cheers guys. Interesting to see how much of a difference the warp storm makes. Just think how the game might have gone if you'd rolled double sixes instead of double ones each time!
Double-6's isn't really that awesome. It just gives you 1 free unit. I'd rather get a roll of 10 for +1 Inv to all my units.
But yeah, that Warpstorm table could be a game changer. It's also what makes daemons fun to me - the unpredictability of it all. Otherwise, if I wanted less randomness, I'd just play my necrons.
Shandara wrote: On the Lamprey's Bite debate, the +1 Attack from charge is nullified by the set value of 'a single special attack', isn't it?
And adding +1 to your Attacks characteristic doesn't help special attacks in any case, since they don't use that characteristic.
Shandara wrote: On the Lamprey's Bite debate, the +1 Attack from charge is nullified by the set value of 'a single special attack', isn't it?
And adding +1 to your Attacks characteristic doesn't help special attacks in any case, since they don't use that characteristic.
I agree with this -- though it would be nice to get 2 attacks with an Onager Gauntlet on the charge with my Tau Commander. (Similar wording - the bearer trades all attacks for a single s10 ap1 attack in CC).
Somehow I can't find my dex so this will be going off memory. Lamprey's Bite says that you swap out your Attack characteristic for 1 special attack. My intepretation of an Attack characteristic is the base stat and not the overall modified total. If it meant the overall total - including charge bonuses and whatever - then it would say ALL attacks.
If you look at the USR Smash, most people would agree that it is half of your base stat applied before any modifiers (i.e. charge bonus, Warp Speed, etc.). Under its entry, it says that ALL attacks are AP2 (meaning any bonus attacks). However, it says that you halve its Attacks characteristic. Hence, my intepretation of Lamprey's Bite is consistent with that of Smash.
But if the majority of people disagree with my intepretation, then I will play it how most people believe. It's no big deal to me and I have made mistakes before.
Baktru wrote: I was rooting for that lone Termagant to survive, but alas it was not to be... Very interesting Batrep, thanks jy2.
Are you kidding me? He could have potentially single-handedly won the game for the bugs. No way I was going to let him live. His survival would be humiliation that my daemons would have to live with forever.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I don't think charging the Swarmlord with your warlord was a great idea. You should have pulled back and wiped the Zoans and then focused on vectoring/shooting.
I was playing with the assumption that I could use the Grimoire on him still (I still believe that you don't need LOS to use it). Had we discussed this beforehand, I would have played differently. My concern with regards to Swarmy was that if I had not locked him up in combat (and I stood a very good chance of beating him with the Grimoire on), then he would have assaulted the screamers and potentially run through them, especially if the Grimoire ever failed.
However, assaulting Swarmy wasn't too bad. Had I not charged in with my grinder as well, I would have locked up both Swarmy and his tervigon in combat. That's 300pts of daemons vs 450pts+ of tyranids taken out of the game.
2 zoanthropes against the shooting of practically my entire army as well as 1 soulgrinder? I wasn't expecting Shadows to f*ck up my entire army's shooting!!! Basically, all the guys in Shadows range failed to fire!
Valek wrote: Tbh Jy2, I don't think fateweaver will roll in this army unless you change a Soulgrinder to a deamon prince, so you keep having a flying beatstick.
Yeah, having Fateweaver would mean that I would have to redesign my list to to accomodate a DP. I'd have to drop 1 grinder and probably the screamers to make it work.
When you roll box-cars on the Daemonic Instability test, something bad happens.
I realize this morning when I was driving to work this is why they were removed as a whole, for some reason that synapse never connected when it comes to dual 1's on the warp storm.
Given the high toughness and prevalence of Iron Arm I have been seeing lately I usually run a unit of Daemonettes and Seekers to pile into those high value targets.
Against bugs, it's tough because a good bug player will have them screened out. Then when you get close enough, the tervigons can spit out gants to tie you up some more. They can be made quite resilient with the right psychic powers (i.e. Invisibility, Endurance, Enfeeble on the target, etc.).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tgf wrote: Pink horrors are just bad period if the enemy has a psyker. My buddy play 2 level 2 psykers with hoods in his DA army and shuts down half my shooting easy. Props to J for taking on a very challenging underdog fight for his demons.
I think the pros outweighs the cons. Tzeentch Heralds are a huge force-multipliers with their psychic powers as well as great shooters. Tyranids are probably the only army (and space wolves) that can really affect their powers. The other 8-9 armies can do nothing against the blessings they can provide for their armies.
I actually didn't feel my army was an underdog at all, even before I seized the initiative. Rather, I felt that we were on equal footing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/10 15:43:01
2013/06/11 04:45:19
Subject: Re:2K 50 Shades of Pink Daemons vs Hive Fleet Janthkin (Completed)
Everything was just going so beautifully in the beginning. I actually felt that my army matched up really well against tyranids. With hardly any shooting on Janthkin's army, I could just shoot the crap out of his army if he didn't come towards me. I had just as deadly but much faster assault units than my opponent and a wall of armor that his gribblies couldn't do anything against. And as soon as he moved his MC's to bust my armored wall, I would counter-attack with my assault units. With re-rollable 2++'s, there isn't any assault unit that I can't handle. Even Swarmy should fall to my LoC in such a state and his stealers are in danger of getting trapped by my grinders.
Then I stole the initiative.....sweet! After the first Turn and a half, I truly felt that I had this game in the bag. With the genestealers essentially neutralized, his flyrant killed and the Swarmlord down to just 1 Wound left, I felt it was just a matter of cleaning up.
Then everything started to go wrong thereon... Where did it all go wrong?
1. First of all, I want to congratulate my opponent for a game very well played. His back was against the wall but he did not give up. He played smartly and slowly worked his way back into the game. He really utilized the terrain to his advantage as I couldn't see my guys (the LoC and screamers) to buff them up with my powerful psychic powers and the Grimoire, not to mention he was protected from my shooting. He teleported his zoans in a gutsy sacrifice to mess up my psychic powers and man, did that work BIG time. When they were in my backfield, I only probably got off 25% of my powers. I couldn't shoot and I couldn't use many of my powers. 4 measly wounds with only 3+ saves they they survived practically half of my army's offense between the shooting and assault by my grinder. Finally, he held up the units that he needed to. He stopped my mobile units - my Warlord, seekers and screamers - from rampaging through his army with the good use of his psychic powers and a little luck.
2. Of course one of the more obvious reasons for my loss is due to the Warpstorm. It killed off 1 Herald and 2 units of horrors, of which 1 was on an objective. Had it not killed off my last unit of horrors, I would have won VP's by 1 and tied in Crusade. Overall, it would have been a tie if only they had survived.
3. I admit stealing the initiative was lucky. Actually, initially, luck was on my side. I rolled a 10 on the Warp Storm once and snake-eyes (1,1) for my Warlord's Daemonic Instability test early on, thus healing him of 2W. Otherwise, he would have been dead. My grinder killed off his flyrant in assault. But then, the dice left me. I couldn't pass a 50% psychic test in the range of Shadows had my life depended on it. Seekers would whiff so badly against the gants in a combat that they should have dominated. Only 2 seekers survived after killing off all the gants!!! WTF!?! It took my Warlord the entire game just to kill a tervigon, and my Warlord almost died in the process. Warpstorm took a dump on me. Despite an extra attack, my screamers only managed to put 1W on his tervigon and then got wiped out by gants. Grinder couldn't kill his zoans despite 6 assault phases and took so long to kill his hive guards. What started off hot for me got real cold real fast.
4. I made some mistakes. I won't count assaulting Swarmy with my LoC because that was done under an assumption that my power would work (I don't consider that a mistake, but rather a misunderstanding). However, I should have known that my opponent would have to use the center terrain and should have readjusted the deployment of my horrors. I moved my LoC into range of Shadows initially. That saved my opponent from losing some more guys from my shooting. I charged my grinder into the Warlord combat only to have him be a spectator. Otherwise, he could have went and dealt with the Doom, thus freeing my Herald's unit to some offense and also to claiming my Emperor's Will objective (as well as saving me from losing a VP). I should not have assaulted his tervigon with my screamers (it still had 5W remaining). That was the cinematic thing to do (just think about the glory if my screamers were able to kill it) but it wasn't the right thing to do. I knew this but still said what the heck...I'm going for the glory. Overall, all these little mistakes add up. Had even 1 of them not been made, I could very well came out with a minor victory or even a tie.
So this was my game to lose and I lost it, partially because of the dice, partially because of the shrewd play of my opponent and partially because of my own mistakes. Despite that, I think that daemons against tyranids is not as bad a matchup as many think. Daemons definitely have the tools to deal with bugs. It might be a slightly tougher fight, but no where near tyranids vs Dark Eldar venom-spam.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/11 04:47:17
2013/06/12 00:56:35
Subject: 2K 50 Shades of Pink Daemons vs Hive Fleet Janthkin (Completed)
Hi guys, I'm out of town currently so have limited access to the Internet. I'll get to more responses later when I get back.
Dozer Blades wrote: You can't really blame the dice - there was plenty of good and back luck on both sides plus daemons are even more random now. I think the daemons over extended themselves going full bore after the genestealers... Putting so much emphasis on First Blood can hurt you in the end plus it's just one victory point which is not that much in a multi objective mission such as the BAO format.
It's not so much as trying to get First Blood as it is an opportunity to try to eliminate a very dangerous threat as well as board control. I believe whoever can control the middle here will most likely be the winner. I didn't want Kevin to be able ti establish control of the middle.
Dozer Blades wrote: You can't really blame the dice - there was plenty of good and back luck on both sides plus daemons are even more random now. I think the daemons over extended themselves going full bore after the genestealers... Putting so much emphasis on First Blood can hurt you in the end plus it's just one victory point which is not that much in a multi objective mission such as the BAO format.
Jim was in an odd place. He didn't set up for going first by any means, which mean his shooting from the Horrors had really poor LoS & range to much of my army, aside from the 'stealers. But he didn't want to squander the stolen initiative either, as it meant a chance to get the psychic buffs going before I could get Shadows coverage.
Really, the big mistake was in moving the LoC. That was his most mobile firepower, and he landed him right in Shadows range. He might have been able to chip some wounds off my Flrant, or try to finish off the Zoeys. And I would have assaulted the Seekers into the remaining 'stealers, instead of using the Screamer fly-over attacks on them. It would have completely frozen my front lines, and left the Screamers available to do fly-over attacks on something else (like a partially-wounded Flyrant, maybe?).
Lots of ways it could have played out. But for the LoC thing, I understand most of what he did.
We'll have to flip this match-up, Jim, and try my Daemons against your Tyranids.
Sure thing, buddy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/12 00:57:29
2013/06/13 21:10:28
Subject: 2K 50 Shades of Pink Daemons vs Hive Fleet Janthkin (Completed)
hippesthippo wrote: Pretty much went how I expected.. I've played a game against Daemons with my Nids and as soon as my flyrants were in shadows range on turn 2, my opponents army crapped all over itself. Daemons are terribly reliant on psychic powers.
Of course, I don't expect it to last long. Psychic defense is going the way of the dodo. :(
I do think Fateweaver is pretty much a necessity at this point. I've seen too many games where Daemons are up big then go on to lose after the warp decides to weaken their armour and randomly make their own troops dissappear.
I think Tyranids will retain their Shadows. It's fluffy and not too overpowering. If anything, I think that space wolves will probably lose their Runic Staff psychic defense if they ever get a redo and tyranids will end up with the best psychic defense, but that's just a hopeful guess on my part.
I'm not convinced about Fatey yet. Will start using him again in my LoC-N-Load build to see what sort of impact he provides.
Well, it certainly was interesting! There's an old saw about plans not surviving contact with the enemy; Jim demonstrated that admirably by stealing the initiative & vaporising 304 pts worth of 'stealers right out of the gate. That definitely put me back on my heels at the outset, and I made some initial mistakes as a result - Swarmy should have barreled into the Screamers right away, leaving the Gargoyles free to go lock down his Soulgrinder for a few turns. In hindsight, the Flyrant didn't have to charge the Soulgrinder, but that's a fight he should have won handily (WS 8 vs WS 3); Jim's saves made a serious difference there.
The Zoanthropes Gating was one of those desperation moves that looks inspired, since it worked. I do apologize for the distance mistake, as this was the first time I've ever used that power, but I don't think it would have changed things dramatically - the 'thropes would have landed in front of the Horrors, instead of behind, but the nearest Soulgrinder was stuck fighting my flyrant for a full game turn anyway. Definitely an "oops" moment, though.
That said, here's what went right:
1) Termagants & Tervigons. These guys are the true workhorses of the list, and so long as they're still around, you're not out of any game. I did get a bit lucky with spawning - 2 15's without doubles in a single game is always remarkable, though the '4' nicely balances out the karma - but it fits my normal usage pattern for Tervigons. Don't spawn until you really need to!
2) Zoanthropes. These guys made a notable number of "save or die" saves against the Soul Grinder, though the Grinder also did me the favor of missing quite often. Once I lost my Genestealers, Telekine Dome was superfluous, and so their best possible role was to extend Shadows coverage to as much of Jim's army as I could manage. (Originally, the revised plan would have involved the Flyrant finishing off that Soulgrinder & then flying to collect that far-right unit of Horrors, but we all know how that worked out.)
3) Abuse of the Challenge mechanics. Jim kept expecting Swarmy to step back in at any minute to continue the fight with his Lord of Change. I, on the other hand, saw exactly zero reason to do so. In that particular fight, the 6 wounds of the (Invisible, FNP) Tervigon meant more than Swarmy's "Instant Death" attacks, and barring a lucky snake eyes result on a Daemonic Instability check, the Tervigon would have won that fight with plenty of wounds to spare.
What happens in the game goes on? I think in turn 6, I lose the "Emperor's Will" objective, and barring some really good consolidation & run moves from my 'gants fighting the Horrors alongside the Doom, I don't get it back. KPs likely remain tied, as I lose a 'gant unit to his Soulgrinder & he loses the remnants of that Horror unit fighting the Doom & we trade warlords, unless Swarmy gets a little lucky in killing the LoC without dying in return (same initiative). I think I still win the Crusade objective. If we make it to turn 7, I think I end up with all the objectives, as the 'gants would have enough time to get Jim's Emperor's Will objective, the Doom has had time to wander over to the Portalglyph, and the central Tervigon has created 1-2 more units to hold Crusade objectives.
Tyranids: In hindsight, the Flyrant didn't have to charge the Soulgrinder, but that's a fight he should have won handily (WS 8 vs WS 3); Jim's saves made a serious difference there.
Initially I wondered why you didn't swoop behind the SG and just blast him in the rear, but decided to keep my mouth shut and look up grinder stats in Army Builder...Rear AV 11 . Glad I kept my mouth shut. I think statistically it works out roughly the same ammount of damage to a SG either way and in CC you aren't getting shot by the rest of his army.
I actually don't believe he had enough movement to do that, considering that he was more than 24" away from my grinder initially and the frame of the grinder is rather huge.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Regarding the LoC/GTervigon challenge with the Swarmlord/SG standing by:
Since models in challenges only count as being in base-to-base with each other, the Swarmlord and SG would pile in to try to base each other.
Right, but as noted before - it was physically impossible for them to do so, because of intervening impassable terrain.
Then as they are separate units from the models in a challenge, wouldn't they be forced to consolidate instead because of the rules regarding combat resolution? The point i'm making is it just doesn't make sense for 4 single-model units to be standing around each other, while only 2 can actually hurt each other. The non-combatants were separate units from either units engaging in a challenge so they probably should have consolidated. Maybe.
I don't believe they can leave combat just like that. It's only if they are not able to consolidate into base with an enemy unit in combat that they can leave combat. Otherwise, they act as cheerleaders for some Morale Support (or whatever that rule is called).
DarthDiggler wrote: I thought models in a challenge were moved to the side. If this is the case, then the two challenging models could be physically picked up to allow room for the other models who were engaged to touch.
Also can you make a charge against a model you can not fight in combat? Can termagants charge a Land Raider in 6th edition? That might have prevented the Grinder from ever charging in at all.
There is a difference in charging a unit you cannot fight and charging a unit you cannot hurt. Actually, the BRBFAQ allows you charge a unit you cannot hurt unless it's a vehicle (so no termagants charging a LR). It might not be a smart idea to charge a unit that you can't fight, but if you have another character, you can swap the challengers next turn even though you can't fight this turn.
2013/06/19 04:33:01
Subject: Re:2K 50 Shades of Pink Daemons vs Hive Fleet Janthkin (Completed)
Picture an emotional roller coaster: "yes, next turn I will crush the enemies....no!!! what happened to my unit.....haha, feel the wrath of my invincible monster....doh! damn Grimoire.....lol"
) and a really good player who once won a major 
. Glad I kept my mouth shut. I think statistically it works out roughly the same ammount of damage to a 
