Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dang, wild fluctuations in luck/Warp energies are making this game very interesting!

I guess if you roll with Tzeentch (ha!) you'd better expect drama.

Jy2, just imagine if you had fateweaver instead of one of the locs....

anonymou5 wrote:
Jy2, just imagine if you had fateweaver instead of one of the locs....

There is only one LoC.

when I play with my daemons, I prefer Fateweaver. Removing or reducing random variables is just that good.

Why can't the Soul Grinder and Swarmlord engage each other?
Page 64 of the rulebook says that, in a challenge, each model is considered to be in base contact only with the other model in the challenge. Wouldn't the Soul Grinder/Swarmlord move to be in base contact with each other?

Siphen wrote:
Why can't the Soul Grinder and Swarmlord engage each other?
Page 64 of the rulebook says that, in a challenge, each model is considered to be in base contact only with the other model in the challenge. Wouldn't the Soul Grinder/Swarmlord move to be in base contact with each other?

Another thought, along the same thinking: If the soul grinder can only make base contact with a model currently involved in a challenge, and no other enemy models which it could legally engage in close combat, could the charge even be made in the first place?

Siphen wrote:
Why can't the Soul Grinder and Swarmlord engage each other?
Page 64 of the rulebook says that, in a challenge, each model is considered to be in base contact only with the other model in the challenge. Wouldn't the Soul Grinder/Swarmlord move to be in base contact with each other?

That's the problem - it was literally impossible for them to do so, as we had defined the rock walls as being impassable terrain.

I don't see anything preventing the charge declaration, though.

I am confused how all the Horrors died from the Warp Storm. Rolling a 12 would cause 4 wounds to the unit - since it failed its instability by 4. It looked like a full 12 Horrors were removed (well 10 plus a Herald) from that roll. Did I miss something?

Interesting game overall - I like the synergies inherent to Jy2's list, although it seems the Seekers were wasted a bit when their Rending is really ideal for taking on TMC's.

 calypso2ts wrote:
I am confused how all the Horrors died from the Warp Storm. Rolling a 12 would cause 4 wounds to the unit - since it failed its instability by 4. It looked like a full 12 Horrors were removed (well 10 plus a Herald) from that roll. Did I miss something?

Interesting game overall - I like the synergies inherent to Jy2's list, although it seems the Seekers were wasted a bit when their Rending is really ideal for taking on TMC's.

See the complete rules for Daemonic Instability; snake eyes & box cars have special results.

But those Seekers were my top-priority target, specifically because I do know what they could do to TMCs. I was very happy to be able to neutralize the unit with a single giant (free) unit of 'gants.

Wow, that warpstorm. Chaos is fickle.

 Janthkin wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:
Jy2, just imagine if you had fateweaver instead of one of the locs....

There is only one LoC.

when I play with my daemons, I prefer Fateweaver. Removing or reducing random variables is just that good.

Yeah, I'm an idiot. Thought he was running his other list for some reason.

Still, those rerolls would have been hugely helpful in this game thus far.

Finally completed on p.1.


Thanks for your patience, guys.

I feel like the Warpstorm defeated you more than Janthkin!

 Valek wrote:
I think the stealers will bite the dust early on, as first turn JY2 will now profit from the stolen initiative to shoot them while they are unbuffed.

I would anyway!

Good call. Yeah, that was my plan. Almost wiped them out also so my opponent started off the game with a huge handicap already.

 wyomingfox wrote:

Anyways, thank goodness for LOS blocking terrain.

Dome is good but the others are pretty situational or just Mehh. Not to mention that most people I play with argue that Mechanicum can't wound fliers, which downgrades its usefullness. Leaves you at 20% per roll to get a useful power vs 33% with Bio (enfeeble/endurance). Well, I guess you can at least use gate late game to contest an objective with your zoes or score line breaker...lemonaid our of lemons and all that.

Yeah, LOS-blocking terrain is absolutely vital to tyranids. Without that huge chunk of terrain in the middle, I would've pegged this game as a win for daemons.

 Janthkin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Well... crap.

That's my line.

To sum up my thoughts at this point: my 'stealers are readily exposed to whatever he cares to do to them (they're in charge range of the Seekers, for instance), and anything on my front line is within range of at least one block of Horrors. He's going to get to buff unopposed, and likely shove at least one 2+ invulnerable unit right down my throat. I'm looking at losing a good chunk of my ability to control the board right out of the gate, and my initial plan is completely lost.

The only good news is that a) the nice piece of terrain mid-board breaks up his sight lines significantly; b) some of his units aren't quite in position to take maximum advantage of seizing (as he very properly expected to being going second); and c) I guess I get to go last, in a mission with 2 separate objective-scoring elements.

Yay.

Very well played, Kevin.

Despite essentially starting the game without your stealers and your flyrants - practically a 500-pt handicap - you fought your way back to a convincing win.

 y0disisray wrote:
After reading Grimoire I cant see anything that would prevent you from using it out of LoS. So far good battle I had picked the Daemons to win but with the way the warp storm has been its getting kinda close. A lot of people dislike the warp storm table however I think its great as it shows how unstable the warp actually is which is shown in the fluff. Cant wait to read the finale.

I will ask this in YMDC:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/532622.page#5719880




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tinfoil wrote:
Dang, wild fluctuations in luck/Warp energies are making this game very interesting!

I guess if you roll with Tzeentch (ha!) you'd better expect drama.

Yeah, that's for sure.

Still debating on whether to take the force-multiplying Fateweaver or the more offensive LoC. I may try out Fatey in the near future.

anonymou5 wrote:
Jy2, just imagine if you had fateweaver instead of one of the locs....

Well, I only have 1 LoC.

But in my dual-LoC list (The Soul of LoC-N-Load daemons), I'll probably swap out one of the LoC's for Fateweaver.

Siphen wrote:
Why can't the Soul Grinder and Swarmlord engage each other?
Page 64 of the rulebook says that, in a challenge, each model is considered to be in base contact only with the other model in the challenge. Wouldn't the Soul Grinder/Swarmlord move to be in base contact with each other?

They couldn't physically reach each other because of impassable terrain in the way.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Siphen wrote:
Why can't the Soul Grinder and Swarmlord engage each other?
Page 64 of the rulebook says that, in a challenge, each model is considered to be in base contact only with the other model in the challenge. Wouldn't the Soul Grinder/Swarmlord move to be in base contact with each other?

Another thought, along the same thinking: If the soul grinder can only make base contact with a model currently involved in a challenge, and no other enemy models which it could legally engage in close combat, could the charge even be made in the first place?

Good question. I think so, but without research, I can't say with 100% certainty. May be a question for YMDC.

 calypso2ts wrote:
I am confused how all the Horrors died from the Warp Storm. Rolling a 12 would cause 4 wounds to the unit - since it failed its instability by 4. It looked like a full 12 Horrors were removed (well 10 plus a Herald) from that roll. Did I miss something?

Interesting game overall - I like the synergies inherent to Jy2's list, although it seems the Seekers were wasted a bit when their Rending is really ideal for taking on TMC's.

When you roll box-cars on the Daemonic Instability test, something bad happens.

Thanks, I built my list with a lot of synergy in mind. Ideally, I wanted to reach his MC's with my seekers, but with the amount of screening units my opponent had in his army, I knew that it wasn't likely going to happen unless I could wipe out his screening units first.

 Janthkin wrote:

 calypso2ts wrote:
I am confused how all the Horrors died from the Warp Storm. Rolling a 12 would cause 4 wounds to the unit - since it failed its instability by 4. It looked like a full 12 Horrors were removed (well 10 plus a Herald) from that roll. Did I miss something?

Interesting game overall - I like the synergies inherent to Jy2's list, although it seems the Seekers were wasted a bit when their Rending is really ideal for taking on TMC's.

See the complete rules for Daemonic Instability; snake eyes & box cars have special results.

But those Seekers were my top-priority target, specifically because I do know what they could do to TMCs. I was very happy to be able to neutralize the unit with a single giant (free) unit of 'gants.

Yeah, your gants did a really good job delaying my seekers. I must admit that I rolled like crap for them.

 Sasori wrote:
I feel like the Warpstorm defeated you more than Janthkin!

The Warpstorm did hurt, but it was definitely my opponent who beat me followed by the Warpstorm and some mistakes on my part. Will go more in detail in my Post-game Analysis about this.

Good battle report, cheers guys. Interesting to see how much of a difference the warp storm makes. Just think how the game might have gone if you'd rolled double sixes instead of double ones each time!

On the Lamprey's Bite debate, the +1 Attack from charge is nullified by the set value of 'a single special attack', isn't it?

And adding +1 to your Attacks characteristic doesn't help special attacks in any case, since they don't use that characteristic.

I was rooting for that lone Termagant to survive, but alas it was not to be... Very interesting Batrep, thanks jy2.

I don't think charging the Swarmlord with your warlord was a great idea. You should have pulled back and wiped the Zoans and then focused on vectoring/shooting.

Tbh Jy2, I don't think fateweaver will roll in this army unless you change a Soulgrinder to a deamon prince, so you keep having a flying beatstick.

 Shandara wrote:
On the Lamprey's Bite debate, the +1 Attack from charge is nullified by the set value of 'a single special attack', isn't it?

And adding +1 to your Attacks characteristic doesn't help special attacks in any case, since they don't use that characteristic.

I agree with this -- though it would be nice to get 2 attacks with an Onager Gauntlet on the charge with my Tau Commander. (Similar wording - the bearer trades all attacks for a single s10 ap1 attack in CC).

When you roll box-cars on the Daemonic Instability test, something bad happens.

I realize this morning when I was driving to work this is why they were removed as a whole, for some reason that synapse never connected when it comes to dual 1's on the warp storm.

Given the high toughness and prevalence of Iron Arm I have been seeing lately I usually run a unit of Daemonettes and Seekers to pile into those high value targets.

Pink horrors are just bad period if the enemy has a psyker. My buddy play 2 level 2 psykers with hoods in his DA army and shuts down half my shooting easy. Props to J for taking on a very challenging underdog fight for his demons.

Dundas wrote:

Good battle report, cheers guys. Interesting to see how much of a difference the warp storm makes. Just think how the game might have gone if you'd rolled double sixes instead of double ones each time!

Double-6's isn't really that awesome. It just gives you 1 free unit. I'd rather get a roll of 10 for +1 Inv to all my units.

But yeah, that Warpstorm table could be a game changer. It's also what makes daemons fun to me - the unpredictability of it all. Otherwise, if I wanted less randomness, I'd just play my necrons.

 Shandara wrote:
On the Lamprey's Bite debate, the +1 Attack from charge is nullified by the set value of 'a single special attack', isn't it?

And adding +1 to your Attacks characteristic doesn't help special attacks in any case, since they don't use that characteristic.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
On the Lamprey's Bite debate, the +1 Attack from charge is nullified by the set value of 'a single special attack', isn't it?

And adding +1 to your Attacks characteristic doesn't help special attacks in any case, since they don't use that characteristic.

I agree with this -- though it would be nice to get 2 attacks with an Onager Gauntlet on the charge with my Tau Commander. (Similar wording - the bearer trades all attacks for a single s10 ap1 attack in CC).

Somehow I can't find my dex so this will be going off memory. Lamprey's Bite says that you swap out your Attack characteristic for 1 special attack. My intepretation of an Attack characteristic is the base stat and not the overall modified total. If it meant the overall total - including charge bonuses and whatever - then it would say ALL attacks.

If you look at the USR Smash, most people would agree that it is half of your base stat applied before any modifiers (i.e. charge bonus, Warp Speed, etc.). Under its entry, it says that ALL attacks are AP2 (meaning any bonus attacks). However, it says that you halve its Attacks characteristic. Hence, my intepretation of Lamprey's Bite is consistent with that of Smash.

But if the majority of people disagree with my intepretation, then I will play it how most people believe. It's no big deal to me and I have made mistakes before.

Baktru wrote:
I was rooting for that lone Termagant to survive, but alas it was not to be... Very interesting Batrep, thanks jy2.

Are you kidding me? He could have potentially single-handedly won the game for the bugs. No way I was going to let him live. His survival would be humiliation that my daemons would have to live with forever.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I don't think charging the Swarmlord with your warlord was a great idea. You should have pulled back and wiped the Zoans and then focused on vectoring/shooting.

I was playing with the assumption that I could use the Grimoire on him still (I still believe that you don't need LOS to use it). Had we discussed this beforehand, I would have played differently. My concern with regards to Swarmy was that if I had not locked him up in combat (and I stood a very good chance of beating him with the Grimoire on), then he would have assaulted the screamers and potentially run through them, especially if the Grimoire ever failed.

However, assaulting Swarmy wasn't too bad. Had I not charged in with my grinder as well, I would have locked up both Swarmy and his tervigon in combat. That's 300pts of daemons vs 450pts+ of tyranids taken out of the game.

2 zoanthropes against the shooting of practically my entire army as well as 1 soulgrinder? I wasn't expecting Shadows to f*ck up my entire army's shooting!!! Basically, all the guys in Shadows range failed to fire!

 Valek wrote:
Tbh Jy2, I don't think fateweaver will roll in this army unless you change a Soulgrinder to a deamon prince, so you keep having a flying beatstick.

Yeah, having Fateweaver would mean that I would have to redesign my list to to accomodate a DP. I'd have to drop 1 grinder and probably the screamers to make it work.

 calypso2ts wrote:

When you roll box-cars on the Daemonic Instability test, something bad happens.

I realize this morning when I was driving to work this is why they were removed as a whole, for some reason that synapse never connected when it comes to dual 1's on the warp storm.

Given the high toughness and prevalence of Iron Arm I have been seeing lately I usually run a unit of Daemonettes and Seekers to pile into those high value targets.

Against bugs, it's tough because a good bug player will have them screened out. Then when you get close enough, the tervigons can spit out gants to tie you up some more. They can be made quite resilient with the right psychic powers (i.e. Invisibility, Endurance, Enfeeble on the target, etc.).





Automatically Appended Next Post:

tgf wrote:
Pink horrors are just bad period if the enemy has a psyker. My buddy play 2 level 2 psykers with hoods in his DA army and shuts down half my shooting easy. Props to J for taking on a very challenging underdog fight for his demons.

I think the pros outweighs the cons. Tzeentch Heralds are a huge force-multipliers with their psychic powers as well as great shooters. Tyranids are probably the only army (and space wolves) that can really affect their powers. The other 8-9 armies can do nothing against the blessings they can provide for their armies.

I actually didn't feel my army was an underdog at all, even before I seized the initiative. Rather, I felt that we were on equal footing.

That was a real nail biter and well played Jankith! If the game had gone on for another round, do you think you could have held onto the lead?

jy2 wrote:I wasn't expecting Shadows to f*ck up my entire army's shooting!!! Basically, all the guys in Shadows range failed to fire!

To be fair, I think the Zoanthropes had to make one Deny the Witch roll, which they passed. It was certainly dramatic, though!

I'll post some after-game thoughts a little later today.

 jy2 wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
On the Lamprey's Bite debate, the +1 Attack from charge is nullified by the set value of 'a single special attack', isn't it?

And adding +1 to your Attacks characteristic doesn't help special attacks in any case, since they don't use that characteristic.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
On the Lamprey's Bite debate, the +1 Attack from charge is nullified by the set value of 'a single special attack', isn't it?

And adding +1 to your Attacks characteristic doesn't help special attacks in any case, since they don't use that characteristic.

I agree with this -- though it would be nice to get 2 attacks with an Onager Gauntlet on the charge with my Tau Commander. (Similar wording - the bearer trades all attacks for a single s10 ap1 attack in CC).

Somehow I can't find my dex so this will be going off memory. Lamprey's Bite says that you swap out your Attack characteristic for 1 special attack. My intepretation of an Attack characteristic is the base stat and not the overall modified total. If it meant the overall total - including charge bonuses and whatever - then it would say ALL attacks.

If you look at the USR Smash, most people would agree that it is half of your base stat applied before any modifiers (i.e. charge bonus, Warp Speed, etc.). Under its entry, it says that ALL attacks are AP2 (meaning any bonus attacks). However, it says that you halve its Attacks characteristic. Hence, my intepretation of Lamprey's Bite is consistent with that of Smash.

But if the majority of people disagree with my intepretation, then I will play it how most people believe. It's no big deal to me and I have made mistakes before.

I just took a look at the codex, and it says "a Screamer can substitute all of its normal close combat attacks for a single special attack with the following profile"

My reading of that is you get just one attack, charging or no.

Yeah, having Fateweaver would mean that I would have to redesign my list to to accomodate a DP. I'd have to drop 1 grinder and probably the screamers to make it work.

I have used Fateweaver's reroll during my turn to help get stuff past Shadows and (before their new codex) Runes of Warding. He helps smooth out the randomness so much that to me he's must-take.

 undertow wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
On the Lamprey's Bite debate, the +1 Attack from charge is nullified by the set value of 'a single special attack', isn't it?

And adding +1 to your Attacks characteristic doesn't help special attacks in any case, since they don't use that characteristic.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
On the Lamprey's Bite debate, the +1 Attack from charge is nullified by the set value of 'a single special attack', isn't it?

And adding +1 to your Attacks characteristic doesn't help special attacks in any case, since they don't use that characteristic.

I agree with this -- though it would be nice to get 2 attacks with an Onager Gauntlet on the charge with my Tau Commander. (Similar wording - the bearer trades all attacks for a single s10 ap1 attack in CC).

Somehow I can't find my dex so this will be going off memory. Lamprey's Bite says that you swap out your Attack characteristic for 1 special attack. My intepretation of an Attack characteristic is the base stat and not the overall modified total. If it meant the overall total - including charge bonuses and whatever - then it would say ALL attacks.

If you look at the USR Smash, most people would agree that it is half of your base stat applied before any modifiers (i.e. charge bonus, Warp Speed, etc.). Under its entry, it says that ALL attacks are AP2 (meaning any bonus attacks). However, it says that you halve its Attacks characteristic. Hence, my intepretation of Lamprey's Bite is consistent with that of Smash.

But if the majority of people disagree with my intepretation, then I will play it how most people believe. It's no big deal to me and I have made mistakes before.

I just took a look at the codex, and it says "a Screamer can substitute all of its normal close combat attacks for a single special attack with the following profile"

My reading of that is you get just one attack, charging or no.

Yeah, having Fateweaver would mean that I would have to redesign my list to to accomodate a DP. I'd have to drop 1 grinder and probably the screamers to make it work.

I have used Fateweaver's reroll during my turn to help get stuff past Shadows and (before their new codex) Runes of Warding. He helps smooth out the randomness so much that to me he's must-take.

My reading is that you would get the +1 attack as that is a bonus attack from charging and not part of the Screamers normal attacks. To quote the BRB, "Each enganged model makes a number of Attacks (A) as indicated on its characteristics profile, plus the following bonus Attacks: +1 Charge Bonus: Engaged models that charged this turn get +1 Attack this turn. Remember that models in units that made a disordered charge (see page 27) do not get this bonus." By this wording the +1 attack is a bonus on top of the models normal attacks (A) so the Lamprey's Bite would reduce the Screamers number of attacks attribute (A) to 1 and then the +1 from the charge would apply.

Set values are applied _after_ additions. Lampre's Bite sets it to 1 attack after adding +1 Attack to your Attacks characteristic.

 Shandara wrote:
Set values are applied _after_ additions. Lampre's Bite sets it to 1 attack after adding +1 Attack to your Attacks characteristic.

There's a good way of looking at it. Distinguishes it from "Smash" as well, as Smash uses a multiplier (of sorts), and we are told to apply multipliers before additive modifiers.

It was a very exciting game and enjoyable to read. I figured Janthkin could make a comeback after losing most of his genestealers. Teleporting the Zoaies was just brilliant!

"I have used Fateweaver's reroll during my turn to help get stuff past Shadows and (before their new codex) Runes of Warding. He helps smooth out the randomness so much that to me he's must-take."

I think Kairos is more tactical now and a great choice for a primary detachment of daemons. The reroll is really good.

POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Daemons:

Everything was just going so beautifully in the beginning. I actually felt that my army matched up really well against tyranids. With hardly any shooting on Janthkin's army, I could just shoot the crap out of his army if he didn't come towards me. I had just as deadly but much faster assault units than my opponent and a wall of armor that his gribblies couldn't do anything against. And as soon as he moved his MC's to bust my armored wall, I would counter-attack with my assault units. With re-rollable 2++'s, there isn't any assault unit that I can't handle. Even Swarmy should fall to my LoC in such a state and his stealers are in danger of getting trapped by my grinders.

Then I stole the initiative.....sweet! After the first Turn and a half, I truly felt that I had this game in the bag. With the genestealers essentially neutralized, his flyrant killed and the Swarmlord down to just 1 Wound left, I felt it was just a matter of cleaning up.

Then everything started to go wrong thereon... Where did it all go wrong?

1. First of all, I want to congratulate my opponent for a game very well played. His back was against the wall but he did not give up. He played smartly and slowly worked his way back into the game. He really utilized the terrain to his advantage as I couldn't see my guys (the LoC and screamers) to buff them up with my powerful psychic powers and the Grimoire, not to mention he was protected from my shooting. He teleported his zoans in a gutsy sacrifice to mess up my psychic powers and man, did that work BIG time. When they were in my backfield, I only probably got off 25% of my powers. I couldn't shoot and I couldn't use many of my powers. 4 measly wounds with only 3+ saves they they survived practically half of my army's offense between the shooting and assault by my grinder. Finally, he held up the units that he needed to. He stopped my mobile units - my Warlord, seekers and screamers - from rampaging through his army with the good use of his psychic powers and a little luck.

2. Of course one of the more obvious reasons for my loss is due to the Warpstorm. It killed off 1 Herald and 2 units of horrors, of which 1 was on an objective. Had it not killed off my last unit of horrors, I would have won VP's by 1 and tied in Crusade. Overall, it would have been a tie if only they had survived.

3. I admit stealing the initiative was lucky. Actually, initially, luck was on my side. I rolled a 10 on the Warp Storm once and snake-eyes (1,1) for my Warlord's Daemonic Instability test early on, thus healing him of 2W. Otherwise, he would have been dead. My grinder killed off his flyrant in assault. But then, the dice left me. I couldn't pass a 50% psychic test in the range of Shadows had my life depended on it. Seekers would whiff so badly against the gants in a combat that they should have dominated. Only 2 seekers survived after killing off all the gants!!! WTF!?! It took my Warlord the entire game just to kill a tervigon, and my Warlord almost died in the process. Warpstorm took a dump on me. Despite an extra attack, my screamers only managed to put 1W on his tervigon and then got wiped out by gants. Grinder couldn't kill his zoans despite 6 assault phases and took so long to kill his hive guards. What started off hot for me got real cold real fast.

4. I made some mistakes. I won't count assaulting Swarmy with my LoC because that was done under an assumption that my power would work (I don't consider that a mistake, but rather a misunderstanding). However, I should have known that my opponent would have to use the center terrain and should have readjusted the deployment of my horrors. I moved my LoC into range of Shadows initially. That saved my opponent from losing some more guys from my shooting. I charged my grinder into the Warlord combat only to have him be a spectator. Otherwise, he could have went and dealt with the Doom, thus freeing my Herald's unit to some offense and also to claiming my Emperor's Will objective (as well as saving me from losing a VP). I should not have assaulted his tervigon with my screamers (it still had 5W remaining). That was the cinematic thing to do (just think about the glory if my screamers were able to kill it) but it wasn't the right thing to do. I knew this but still said what the heck...I'm going for the glory. Overall, all these little mistakes add up. Had even 1 of them not been made, I could very well came out with a minor victory or even a tie.

So this was my game to lose and I lost it, partially because of the dice, partially because of the shrewd play of my opponent and partially because of my own mistakes. Despite that, I think that daemons against tyranids is not as bad a matchup as many think. Daemons definitely have the tools to deal with bugs. It might be a slightly tougher fight, but no where near tyranids vs Dark Eldar venom-spam.